The Dublin skyline is ugly, why are we not building high rise for modern city?

ChikiChiki · 28-06-2019 8:10pm #1

Just on the train home now going through Drumcondra and the skyline of Dublin (or lack of) is absolutely disgusting. Loads of grey/brownish everywhere, council flats, brick houses and nothing of note other than Croke Park and the spire.

I see many cranes down towards the docklands being wasted building low rise commercial developments. I really think with Brexit, Dublin is making a huge mistake not building to Singapore levels of high rise. 30/40 story plus buildings zoned in the docklands would make the cityscape look spectacular. We could still retain the charm of old Dublin. They could be multi purpose mix of residential, commercial and shopping centres on the ground/underground floor. With this in mind we could compete with top global cities and provide great living standards for young professionals who wouldn't have to commute from the likes of Mullingar etc.

Why is this not happening? In my opinion it is a massive blown opportunity and lack of ambition from successive reactive instead of proactive Government's. Too many ministers with vested interests in keeping property supply low. We are attracting top Global MNCs yet staff are being shoehorned into shared and not fit for purpose accommodation out if the city. Only a matter of time before further investment is lost as the city is stretched. An absolute embarrassment.

Any thoughts?

jcorr · 28-06-2019 8:12pm

No vision. Sheep mentality which translates to design of buildings

Someone was complaining in another thread about the spire. If they can build a monument that high, why not a tower.

Your Face · 28-06-2019 8:17pm

'Charm of Old Dublin'

Right.

ChikiChiki · 28-06-2019 8:19pm

jcorr wrote: »

No vision. Sheep mentality which translates to design of buildings

Someone was complaining in another thread about the spire. If they can build a monument that high, why not a tower.

The spire is an absolute monstrosity to be fair. They should get the consaw to that yoke.

El_Bee · 28-06-2019 8:20pm

ChikiChiki wrote: »

Just on the train home now going through Drumcondra and the skyline of Dublin (or lack of) is absolutely disgusting. Loads of grey/brownish everywhere, council flats, brick houses and nothing of note other than Croke Park and the spire.

I see many cranes down towards the docklands being wasted building low rise commercial developments. I really think with Brexit, Dublin is making a huge mistake not building to Singapore levels of high rise. 30/40 story plus buildings zoned in the docklands would make the cityscape look spectacular. We could still retain the charm of old Dublin. They could be multi purpose mix of residential, commercial and shopping centres on the ground/underground floor. With this in mind we could compete with top global cities and provide great living standards for young professionals who wouldn't have to commute from the likes of Mullingar etc.

Why is this not happening? In my opinion it is a massive blown opportunity and lack of ambition from successive reactive instead of proactive Government's. Too many ministers with vested interests in keeping property supply low. We are attracting top Global MNCs yet staff are being shoehorned into shared and not fit for purpose accommodation out if the city. Only a matter of time before further investment is lost as the city is stretched. An absolute embarrassment.

Any thoughts?

Because the bulk of the population doesn't know that these things and many others regarding planning & housing are controlled by councils and not TD's, so we vote in a shower of morons to each council and they make stupid decisions regarding planning and housing and we blame the thickos in the Dail.

Fr_Dougal · 28-06-2019 8:22pm

Is it not the individual Councils that set policy? Sinn Fein had a majority in a lot of the Dublin Councils yet voted against high rise. The very same ones who are out marching for the homeless.

Ten of Swords · 28-06-2019 8:31pm

When the city limits extend into Co. Mayo they might decide to start building up

Your Face · 28-06-2019 8:32pm

Ten of Swords wrote: »

When the city limits extend into Co. Mayo they might decide to start building up

Even if they became part of Dublin, Mayo would still lose the All-Ireland.

ChikiChiki · 28-06-2019 8:38pm

El_Bee wrote: »

Because the bulk of the population doesn't know that these things and many others regarding planning & housing are controlled by councils and not TD's, so we vote in a shower of morons to each council and they make stupid decisions regarding planning and housing and we blame the thickos in the Dail.

I see it in my own area. There's a development plan with 3000 houses, new roads and schools planned in North Kildare and locals are kicking off. Councillors are beginning to take stances to appease them. I'm sure many Councillors privately think differently. Now tbh, I hate that my area will change so drastically but I can see it's in the national interest. Housing is badly needed. We need to move with the times.

jcorr · 28-06-2019 8:40pm

Your Face wrote: »

Even if they became part of Dublin, Mayo would still lose the All-Ireland.

Oh that's harsh. Terribly harsh.

buried · 28-06-2019 8:48pm

I dunno, probably has to happen what with the population but I don't like the likes of what is in London now for example, huge glass and steel high rise Lipstick towers, Tower of Saudi Sauron Shard craic, ugggh fook that mess

Spanish Eyes · 28-06-2019 8:49pm

They are afraid, very afraid of setting a precedent. Honestly the Docklands are like bunkers when they could have gone up many storeys.

I think it will change soon. Especially down that neck of the woods. It is not interfering with anything and could be a beacon of light in time.

But by the time the powers that be make a decision, the next recession will have hit, and we all go round the merry go round again. Giving out about everything, but solving nothing.

Ubbquittious · 28-06-2019 8:51pm

Why build more buildings in Dublin? Get rid of some existing ones instead

Spanish Eyes · 28-06-2019 8:55pm

Ubbquittious wrote: »

Why build more buildings in Dublin? Get rid of some existing ones instead

Give us an example.

Spanish Eyes · 28-06-2019 8:58pm

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

Is it not the individual Councils that set policy? Sinn Fein had a majority in a lot of the Dublin Councils yet voted against high rise. The very same ones who are out marching for the homeless.

High rise office blocks will not do anything for SF supporters really, they appear to me to be against everything and for nothing. Even high rise apartments, you know, that will ease the homeless issue somewhat. Just like their PBP bedfellows.

If they allow it, their fight is gone.

bear1 · 28-06-2019 9:29pm

I admire Ronan for this.
He pushes the envelope and fights back when he's refused.
Tara street hate it or love it was a big step forward.
Hopefully he wins the next one near the waterfront.

Vita nova · 28-06-2019 9:30pm

Building more high rise buildings will help the housing crisis and make transport more efficient, which is good in itself but it won't necessarily make the skyline any prettier unless that becomes one of the prime planning considerations.
I find many high rise buildings have little aesthetic value and are simply functional but there are exceptions such as the beautiful Chrysler Building in New York... it'd be great if we got something like that in our cities.

snotboogie · 28-06-2019 9:35pm

The first genuine skyscraper proposal in Ireland went for planning last month, Johnny Ronan’s project waterfront. None of the Irish urban areas are of any real particular note, of course there are buildings and streets that need to be preserved but we do not have an Amsterdam or a Venice.

ChikiChiki · 28-06-2019 9:37pm

Vita nova wrote: »

Building more high rise buildings will help the housing crisis and make transport more efficient, which is good in itself but it won't necessarily make the skyline any prettier unless that becomes one of the prime planning considerations.
I find many high rise buildings have little aesthetic value and are simply functional but there are exceptions such as the beautiful Chrysler Building in New York... it'd be great if we got something like that in our cities.

The new Barangaroo and Darling Harbour waterfront in Sydney are good examples of high rise done right.

https://theurbandeveloper.com/articles/barangaroo-south-stands-tallest-on-australias-best-development-podium

The docklands is a grim area. High rise could really rejuvinate it. Also Sydneysiders commute by boat. Could such an initiative ease Dublins overcrowded rail system? Example Dun Laoghaire - Docklands - IFSC

touts · 28-06-2019 9:40pm

Take the double decker tourist hop on hop off bus around Dublin where you can see over walls and into sites. It's an eye opening experience. The city is a kip. There is little worth preserving. However we have a planning system that gives too much influence to those who want to continue to live in the backward filth they have become accustomed to. And it's not just Dublin. The same happens around the country. At the moment there is a proposal to demolish a detilict early rat infested hotel in Clonmel town cenrer and replace it with a modern classy looking hotel. The project is all but dead thanks to the complaints of a few who want to preserve the street scape from their miserable childhoods in the early 20th century. And many of the complaints come from the professional complainers in An Taisce who never set foot in Clonmel never mind have childhood memories of the place.

We need a complete overhaul of planning in this country.

hmmm · 28-06-2019 9:43pm

I don't believe it's the skyline these people really care about, it's keeping their nice quiet houses within walking distance of the city centre. The last thing they want is the noise of hundreds of new families in an area, and they're quite happy for them to have to commute in from Drogheda and Maynooth. It's also extremely valuable to own a property in the city because there are so few, so any new developments are going to reduce the value of their ****ty redbricks.

Hal3000 · 28-06-2019 9:46pm

Had relatives over a while back, they commented on how ugly most of Dublin city was. In particular the Northside, add to that the junkies and homeless that accosted us on our way home, Dublin city center is truly a hole.

downtheroad · 28-06-2019 9:49pm

From a rooftop in Fairview last night the round tower in Glasnevin cemetery was clearly visible above the skyline to the west. It is 55 metres tall and was built in 1854.

It probably wouldn't get planning permission today because of nimby objectors.

riclad · 28-06-2019 10:46pm

We have many historic buildings ,
dublin castle.
victorian buildings , mansions ,museums, .
Saying we have no buildings worth preserving is simply wrong.
We are in the middle of a housing crisis .
The homeless go to the city centre because thats where hotels and services
are located .
I agree we need some area,s zoned for high buildings for offices and residential.
There are many old buildings that are derelict and empty.
i don,t know why ,they are not sold off ,or rented out .
this are empty building that are just boarded up in the city centre .
It would be better for the environment to build high buildings and
take advantage of the resources we have .
This could reduce traffic and commuting times for workers .
Is there some european city that does not have some homeless people
or drug users in the city center ?Of course someone who owns expensive land is
in favour of higher building .

Dyr · 28-06-2019 10:52pm

Architecturally Dublin city center is ugly as ****, the last 50 years of putting up innovative, bold, ****-ugly buildings that we're now knocking made it that way, High rise will be just another example. You look at the sillicon docks and the custom house beside them and realise the west lost the ability to design great buildings a long time ago.

n97 mini · 28-06-2019 11:08pm

I live in Leixlip. There are plans to add 3000 houses to the town. I spoke to one of the planners and asked what proportion of the working population commute to Dublin. 70% was the answer. I proposed to him therefore that Dublin needs more density as surely a lot of people would prefer to live closer to work, and specifically mentioned high rise. "Nah, everyone wants a 3 bed semi with front and back gardens" was his answer. This guy was a good 15 years younger than me (I'm in my mind 40s).

I replied that there are plenty of young singles that want to live close to work and the action (my 23 year old being one), not miles out in the urban sprawl. "Nah, Irish people don't want to live in apartments" was the reply.

This is the mentality you're dealing with. I don't know where it's coming from.

con___manx1 · 28-06-2019 11:12pm

sky scrapers are over rated. when you see them everyday going to work you get sick of the sight of them. I did anyway when I lived in a high rise city. Dublin needs to sort out its public transport before we
start worrying about skyscrapers.

n97 mini · 28-06-2019 11:20pm

con___manx1 wrote: »

sky scrapers are over rated. when you see them everyday going to work you get sick of the sight of them. I did anyway when I lived in a high rise city. Dublin needs to sort out its public transport before we
start worrying about skyscrapers.

Dublin has extended well beyond its borders into surrounding counties. When do we stop, when we've hit the west coast?

ChikiChiki · 28-06-2019 11:22pm

n97 mini wrote: »

I live in Leixlip. There are plans to add 3000 houses to the town. I spoke to one of the planners and asked what proportion of the working population commute to Dublin. 70% was the answer. I proposed to him therefore that Dublin needs more density as surely a lot of people would prefer to live closer to work, and specifically mentioned high rise. "Nah, everyone wants a 3 bed semi with front and back gardens" was his answer. This guy was a good 15 years younger than me (I'm in my mind 40s).

I replied that there are plenty of young singles that want to live close to work and the action (my 23 year old being one), not miles out in the urban sprawl. "Nah, Irish people don't want to live in apartments" was the reply.

This is the mentality you're dealing with. I don't know where it's coming from.

I'm the same area as yourself. We are going to become part of the city. I don't think the rail line will cope too well. Lots of crossings, points of failure and people already struggle to get on the train in the mornings from Coolmine onwards. The signalling system is already outdated and under huge pressure. Cannot fathom how the town planner has that attitude at that age.

High rise city living is a great option especially for people in their 20s getting a start in life and out to enjoy themselves. I'm seeing far too many people stuck living at home, lives passing by. High rise in the docklands would take a huge burden off our inadequate public transport system.

branie2 · 28-06-2019 11:50pm

Prince Charles will have an opinion on this

Varta · 28-06-2019 11:58pm

Dublin is a great city and the old low-rise areas should be maintained. East of Butt bridge, however, should be no holds barred. As high as you like and as brash as you like. The same goes for new developments to the west of the city.

Kermit.de.frog · 29-06-2019 1:35am

Isn't Johnny Ronan getting an erection on Tara Street soon?

Badly Drunk Boy · 29-06-2019 2:15am

I've nothing against high-rise buildings as a solution for the housing crisis, and as others have said, it would especially suit younger people working in the city, but I don't understand the 'highrise skyline=attractive skyline' standpoint. Does this just come from seeing the New York skyline on Woody Allen films or Seattle's at the start of Frasier? When you're actually at the buildings, it's not necessarily so pretty.

ChikiChiki · 29-06-2019 2:25am

Badly Drunk Boy wrote: »

I've nothing against high-rise buildings as a solution for the housing crisis, and as others have said, it would especially suit younger people working in the city, but I don't understand the 'highrise skyline=attractive skyline' standpoint. Does this just come from seeing the New York skyline on Woody Allen films or Seattle's at the start of Frasier? When you're actually at the buildings, it's not necessarily so pretty.

They would be older high rise. Modern high rise are more multi purpose retail, leisure, commercial and residential. They and can be designed in such a way that there are green areas incorporated and flexible ambient lighting. They dont necessarily have to be dull concrete jungles.

Hopefully Johnny Ronans one is the start of something because it would look way out of place alone.

Franz Von Peppercorn II · 29-06-2019 7:38am

ChikiChiki wrote: »

The spire is an absolute monstrosity to be fair. They should get the consaw to that yoke.

There’s probably no tall building or structure you would like if you didn’t like the spire. That’s the problem, liking tall structures in general but not in specific.

Franz Von Peppercorn II · 29-06-2019 7:42am

touts wrote: »

Take the double decker tourist hop on hop off bus around Dublin where you can see over walls and into sites. It's an eye opening experience. The city is a kip. There is little worth preserving. However we have a planning system that gives too much influence to those who want to continue to live in the backward filth they have become accustomed to. And it's not just Dublin. The same happens around the country. At the moment there is a proposal to demolish a detilict early rat infested hotel in Clonmel town cenrer and replace it with a modern classy looking hotel. The project is all but dead thanks to the complaints of a few who want to preserve the street scape from their miserable childhoods in the early 20th century. And many of the complaints come from the professional complainers in An Taisce who never set foot in Clonmel never mind have childhood memories of the place.

We need a complete overhaul of planning in this country.

I’ve found Dublin quite pretty on those trips. You can’t really judge a city by people’s backyards.

That Clonmel story is interesting. Clonmel definitely needs some rejuvenation.

SEPT 23 1989 · 29-06-2019 7:47am

Move Dublin port and build housing

Total waste of space down there

Franz Von Peppercorn II · 29-06-2019 8:00am

n97 mini wrote: »

I live in Leixlip. There are plans to add 3000 houses to the town. I spoke to one of the planners and asked what proportion of the working population commute to Dublin. 70% was the answer. I proposed to him therefore that Dublin needs more density as surely a lot of people would prefer to live closer to work, and specifically mentioned high rise. "Nah, everyone wants a 3 bed semi with front and back gardens" was his answer. This guy was a good 15 years younger than me (I'm in my mind 40s).

I replied that there are plenty of young singles that want to live close to work and the action (my 23 year old being one), not miles out in the urban sprawl. "Nah, Irish people don't want to live in apartments" was the reply.

This is the mentality you're dealing with. I don't know where it's coming from.

He’s right though. Have a look at the accommodation and property forum when someone asks whether he should buy an appartment. General consensus is no.

There’s also a perceived problem with quality, noise and management fees.

(I live in an apartment)

amadangomor · 29-06-2019 8:04am

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Isn't Johnny Ronan getting an erection on Tara Street soon?

Yes that's after his planning application is approved

amadangomor · 29-06-2019 8:11am

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

He’s right though. Have a look at the accommodation and property forum when someone asks whether he should buy an appartment. General consensus is no.

There’s also a perceived problem with quality, noise and management fees.

(I live in an apartment)

All problems that should be addressed with better standards of builds.

Saw myself on sites during the boom, no supervision of tradesmen/labourers and shoddy, rushed work being carried out.

One lad was looking after the soundproofing around the service ducts and would put a really thin layer of soundproofing material in and cement over it. Guarantee all the neighbours can hear each others bowel movements now.

The management fee issue needs to be addressed badly also

snotboogie · 29-06-2019 8:39am

Badly Drunk Boy wrote: »

I've nothing against high-rise buildings as a solution for the housing crisis, and as others have said, it would especially suit younger people working in the city, but I don't understand the 'highrise skyline=attractive skyline' standpoint. Does this just come from seeing the New York skyline on Woody Allen films or Seattle's at the start of Frasier? When you're actually at the buildings, it's not necessarily so pretty.

The New York skyline is unreal in person, same with Hong Kong, both cities are a bit gritty but it’s part of their appeal. Not every high rise skyline goes with overpowing density and grittiness though there are plenty of modern high rise cities which have pristine streetscapes, Singapore makes Dublin look like Lagos and it’s a very high rise city.

Ulysses Gaze · 29-06-2019 8:50am

n97 mini wrote: »

I live in Leixlip. There are plans to add 3000 houses to the town. I spoke to one of the planners and asked what proportion of the working population commute to Dublin. 70% was the answer. I proposed to him therefore that Dublin needs more density as surely a lot of people would prefer to live closer to work, and specifically mentioned high rise. "Nah, everyone wants a 3 bed semi with front and back gardens" was his answer. This guy was a good 15 years younger than me (I'm in my mind 40s).

I replied that there are plenty of young singles that want to live close to work and the action (my 23 year old being one), not miles out in the urban sprawl. "Nah, Irish people don't want to live in apartments" was the reply.

This is the mentality you're dealing with. I don't know where it's coming from.

Due to the lack of quality apartment builds in Dublin, could you blame them?

Racked and stacked, nonexistent soundproofing and some without proper fire safety.

TBH...I wouldn't trust any Irish developer or building contractor to build a quality highrise development.

road_high · 29-06-2019 8:54am

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

High rise office blocks will not do anything for SF supporters really, they appear to me to be against everything and for nothing. Even high rise apartments, you know, that will ease the homeless issue somewhat. Just like their PBP bedfellows.

If they allow it, their fight is gone.

SF- the party of pointless opposition and welfare junkies. Was thrilled to see them obliterated at council level- hopefully the Dail will follow soon

Atoms for Peace · 29-06-2019 9:00am

Some great brutilist architecture in Dublin, the old central bank being the stand out.

Yamanoto · 29-06-2019 9:34am

You don't require high-rise construction to deliver quality high-density housing.

The current problem lies in the fact that development guidelines and regulations in Ireland make a very definite distinction between houses and apartments, ignoring the fact that residential dwellers essentially seek the same things - privacy, space, comfort and calm and considered open areas.

This prevents the development of courtyard or terraced housing or other hybrid models, where tightly-grained networks of units densely occupy space in a city.

29-06-2019 9:45am

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Move Dublin port and build housing

Total waste of space down there

Plenty of space in Longford. It makes far more sense to have it there from a logistics perspective.

Franz Von Peppercorn II · 29-06-2019 10:14am

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

Due to the lack of quality apartment builds in Dublin, could you blame them?

Racked and stacked, nonexistent soundproofing and some without proper fire safety.

TBH...I wouldn't trust any Irish developer or building contractor to build a quality highrise development.

Yeh I forgot about the sh1tshow that was the self certification on fire . It’s been kept under the radar but plenty of issues still to come on fire hazards in Dublin.

Dyr · 29-06-2019 12:09pm

Yamanoto wrote: »

You don't require high-rise construction to deliver quality high-density housing.

The current problem lies in the fact that development guidelines and regulations in Ireland make a very definite distinction between houses and apartments, ignoring the fact that residential dwellers essentially seek the same things - privacy, space, comfort and calm and considered open areas.

This prevents the development of courtyard or terraced housing or other hybrid models, where tightly-grained networks of units densely occupy space in a city.

One of the signs of the common or gardener Irish bore is that their favourite cliché is to bemoan the lack of high rise in Dublin. Apparently, they're under the impression that the city centre is low density

Ubbquittious · 29-06-2019 12:16pm

Bambi wrote: »

One of the signs of the common or gardener Irish bore is that their favourite cliché is to bemoan the lack of high rise in Dublin. Apparently, they're under the impression that the city centre is low density

Its just people who been to New York or some other place on a shopping weekend saying "why can't we have that at home? surely if the yanks and some other country have it we should too"

Ken. · 29-06-2019 12:17pm

Mod-Moved to the Dublin City forum. Read the local charter before posting please.

ChikiChiki · 29-06-2019 12:31pm

Ubbquittious wrote: »

Bambi wrote: »

One of the signs of the common or gardener Irish bore is that their favourite cliché is to bemoan the lack of high rise in Dublin. Apparently, they're under the impression that the city centre is low density

Its just people who been to New York or some other place on a shopping weekend saying "why can't we have that at home? surely if the yanks and some other country have it we should too"

Or the fact we have a massive housing crisis, the city has inadequate overstretched public transport and is sprawling too far out and MNCs are continuing to invest heavily in Ireland.

We need high rise to remain competitive. Places for people to live and work in convenient locations. Dublin is sprawling way too far. That in itself is posing a major problem. It's about doing what is needed and getting with the times.

The Dublin skyline is ugly, why are we not building high rise for modern city?

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