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The way forward for LC2021
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09-01-2021 10:39am#1I'm interested in the views of other teachers as to what should happen to assess the work of LC2021 students. With growing calls for cancellation of the exams and predicted grades, I fear we are sleep walking in to a repeat of last year's debacle.
My personal view is the exams should go ahead as scheduled but perhaps a further review of papers to allow for more choice should happen, suggestions submitted from subject associations maybe?
As regards projects/orals/practicals I can only speak to my own subjects. In History I feel the project should go ahead as planned.
What do others think?8
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History Queen wrote: »I'm interested in the views of other teachers as to what should happen to assess the work of LC2021 students. With growing calls for cancellation of the exams and predicted grades, I fear we are sleep walking in to a repeat of last year's debacle.
My personal view is the exams should go ahead as scheduled but perhaps a further review of papers to allow for more choice should happen, suggestions submitted from subject associations maybe?
As regards projects/orals/practicals I can only speak to my own subjects. In History I feel the project should go ahead as planned.
What do others think?
This is my view too, exams to go ahead but give them much more choice and also reduce the amount of questions to answer. Speaking for my own subject (biology) the addition of the extra questions in each section didn’t go far enough.
I didn’t teach 6th years last year (thankfully!) but predictive grading seems an absolute nightmare and I don’t see how it could be used again.0 -
Agree. At the start of the discussion last year my sixth years were saying yay we don't have to do the leaving cert but once it continued they changed their tune to we didn't get to do our leaving cert.
I would like to see the exams go ahead. There should be changed to the structure of the exams and I think they could be pushed out a little later if necessary. More invigilators, more classrooms. If students aren't close contacts unless they have masks off then there shouldn't be an issue.
I don't see how we could have predicted grades. I don't know about anyone else, but last year's fifth year summer exam was unreliable, given that it was online. And this year I have been more preoccupied with content and catch up to give as many tests as I normally would.0 -
I think the exams should go ahead. I think the LCs calling for it (online) are very shortsighted. There isn't an awful lot of data to go on because of last year and we are in a much different position. While I didn't agree with predicted grades last year, we had got as far as march before we went online and it was May before the LC was cancelled so we had the guts of 2 years teaching those students. The current LCs are calling for a cancellation now. Cancelling now would just mean downing tools in January. Where would be the incentive for any student to work for the rest of the year.
I think the LC should go ahead, cases are crazy at the moment, but the government have until June to sort the mess out. If necessary the LC could take place in July. Results came out late this year despite the fact that results were in 6-8 weeks earlier than they would have been if they had sat the exams and they were marked as normal.
Where there's a will there's a way. If a teacher can stand in a classroom with 24 students on a daily basis, then there is no reason that an examiner cannot sit in a classroom at a distance from a student and conduct an oral examination. Give them microphones if necessary. Option 2: if the SEC are unwilling to go down this route then there's no reason that orals could not take place on Teams/Zoom etc. There is a facility to record on both of these apps. Either have someone supervise in the room so no cheating takes place or ask the student to show the entire room beforehand with the laptop so it can be seen that no notes are pinned to a wall etc.
History/Geography/Ag Science have booklets which are submitted. No reason for this to change. Extend the deadline if necessary. I'm sure there are other subjects that fall into this category.
The Junior Cert need not be cancelled, but the start of it could be staggered. The busiest days of the Leaving Cert are the core subjects and subjects like Biology, French, Geography which have a large uptake. If you want the exams to go ahead with fewer students in each room, then delay the start of the Junior Cert by a week or a week and a half until the numbers doing LC have decreased and centres are reduced in each school. Then use those centres for JC exams. Weren't the JC results in 2019 delayed until October anyway so it wouldn't make much difference if that became standard?0 -
rainbowtrout wrote: »I think the exams should go ahead. I think the LCs calling for it (online) are very shortsighted. There isn't an awful lot of data to go on because of last year and we are in a much different position. While I didn't agree with predicted grades last year, we had got as far as march before we went online and it was May before the LC was cancelled so we had the guts of 2 years teaching those students. The current LCs are calling for a cancellation now. Cancelling now would just mean downing tools in January. Where would be the incentive for any student to work for the rest of the year.
I think the LC should go ahead, cases are crazy at the moment, but the government have until June to sort the mess out. If necessary the LC could take place in July. Results came out late this year despite the fact that results were in 6-8 weeks earlier than they would have been if they had sat the exams and they were marked as normal.
Where there's a will there's a way. If a teacher can stand in a classroom with 24 students on a daily basis, then there is no reason that an examiner cannot sit in a classroom at a distance from a student and conduct an oral examination. Give them microphones if necessary. Option 2: if the SEC are unwilling to go down this route then there's no reason that orals could not take place on Teams/Zoom etc. There is a facility to record on both of these apps. Either have someone supervise in the room so no cheating takes place or ask the student to show the entire room beforehand with the laptop so it can be seen that no notes are pinned to a wall etc.
History/Geography/Ag Science have booklets which are submitted. No reason for this to change. Extend the deadline if necessary. I'm sure there are other subjects that fall into this category.
The Junior Cert need not be cancelled, but the start of it could be staggered. The busiest days of the Leaving Cert are the core subjects and subjects like Biology, French, Geography which have a large uptake. If you want the exams to go ahead with fewer students in each room, then delay the start of the Junior Cert by a week or a week and a half until the numbers doing LC have decreased and centres are reduced in each school. Then use those centres for JC exams. Weren't the JC results in 2019 delayed until October anyway so it wouldn't make much difference if that became standard?
Really insightful post rainbowtrout, I think you articulated what can be done very well.0 -
LC needs to go ahead but they need to pull apart the content far far more and acknowledge that it doesn’t go far enough in some subjects. Cut the course enough or redesign the papers enough that at least 1/3 of content is gone. Do that this week and publish it ASAP. Use the very high risk teachers and inspectorate, the NCCA and the SEC to just get it done. I guarantee the students would be happy enough in that case.
Maths for example, they gave an extra choice. But since we don’t know what will be in the sections this does not shorten the course, at all.
Music is 50% practical. They made NO changes to it. At all. None. That’s ridiculous. Groups involving voice and wind haven’t been able to perform together in a year! Then they cut two parts of the listening out that were ALREADY done by some of the 5th years last year (fundamentally unfair), added one extra choice to the Irish music essay (still does not shorten amount needing to be studied as there is no definitive list of topics) and made an adjustment so minor to the composing paper as to be insulting to hard working students (removed one major and one minor key from the course)
For orals and practicals fund one high quality webcam for each examiner. Install it high in a corner in each room so that the whole room is viewable. Student performs in that room, examiner outside the room (singing is a big problem safety wise). Air the room after each performance. For orals do the same and if the room is big enough then the examiner can be there with them. Pay extra home ec examiners so there are less students in a room. Run them. Fund the extra requirements. Don’t cancel them.
Junior cert can go in my opinion. Say it now let us figure out how to keep them motivated for the rest of the year but take the exam prep off them so we can use the time to solidify content they have missed and absolutely need for senior cycle. I’m very concerned about maths for example0 -
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rainbowtrout wrote: »I think the exams should go ahead. I think the LCs calling for it (online) are very shortsighted. There isn't an awful lot of data to go on because of last year and we are in a much different position. While I didn't agree with predicted grades last year, we had got as far as march before we went online and it was May before the LC was cancelled so we had the guts of 2 years teaching those students. The current LCs are calling for a cancellation now. Cancelling now would just mean downing tools in January. Where would be the incentive for any student to work for the rest of the year.
I think the LC should go ahead, cases are crazy at the moment, but the government have until June to sort the mess out. If necessary the LC could take place in July. Results came out late this year despite the fact that results were in 6-8 weeks earlier than they would have been if they had sat the exams and they were marked as normal.
Where there's a will there's a way. If a teacher can stand in a classroom with 24 students on a daily basis, then there is no reason that an examiner cannot sit in a classroom at a distance from a student and conduct an oral examination. Give them microphones if necessary. Option 2: if the SEC are unwilling to go down this route then there's no reason that orals could not take place on Teams/Zoom etc. There is a facility to record on both of these apps. Either have someone supervise in the room so no cheating takes place or ask the student to show the entire room beforehand with the laptop so it can be seen that no notes are pinned to a wall etc.
History/Geography/Ag Science have booklets which are submitted. No reason for this to change. Extend the deadline if necessary. I'm sure there are other subjects that fall into this category.
The Junior Cert need not be cancelled, but the start of it could be staggered. The busiest days of the Leaving Cert are the core subjects and subjects like Biology, French, Geography which have a large uptake. If you want the exams to go ahead with fewer students in each room, then delay the start of the Junior Cert by a week or a week and a half until the numbers doing LC have decreased and centres are reduced in each school. Then use those centres for JC exams. Weren't the JC results in 2019 delayed until October anyway so it wouldn't make much difference if that became standard?
Long time lurker here and have just registered. Must say this post is very logical and practical. Makes perfect sense so probably unlikely to happen!0 -
mirrorwall14 wrote: »LC needs to go ahead but they need to pull apart the content far far more and acknowledge that it doesn’t go far enough in some subjects. Cut the course enough or redesign the papers enough that at least 1/3 of content is gone. Do that this week and publish it ASAP. Use the very high risk teachers and inspectorate, the NCCA and the SEC to just get it done. I guarantee the students would be happy enough in that case.
Maths for example, they gave an extra choice. But since we don’t know what will be in the sections this does not shorten the course, at all.
Music is 50% practical. They made NO changes to it. At all. None. That’s ridiculous. Groups involving voice and wind haven’t been able to perform together in a year! Then they cut two parts of the listening out that were ALREADY done by some of the 5th years last year (fundamentally unfair), added one extra choice to the Irish music essay (still does not shorten amount needing to be studied as there is no definitive list of topics) and made an adjustment so minor to the composing paper as to be insulting to hard working students (removed one major and one minor key from the course)
For orals and practicals fund one high quality webcam for each examiner. Install it high in a corner in each room so that the whole room is viewable. Student performs in that room, examiner outside the room (singing is a big problem safety wise). Air the room after each performance. For orals do the same and if the room is big enough then the examiner can be there with them. Pay extra home ec examiners so there are less students in a room. Run them. Fund the extra requirements. Don’t cancel them.
Junior cert can go in my opinion. Say it now let us figure out how to keep them motivated for the rest of the year but take the exam prep off them so we can use the time to solidify content they have missed and absolutely need for senior cycle. I’m very concerned about maths for example
I suspect that the minimal changes were to leave some room for maneuver if things went awry again... which they have done.
Predictive grades are a no-go really.
It's up to the SEC now. Teachers have done their part and are probably willing to volunteer in good numbers if needs be for June/July/August.
Because of music there's precedent for all subjects to have a teacher present during practical/ oral . So Zoom etc. should be possible for languages ... dunno about Home Ec. though, maybe just postpone it till later.0 -
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At this point there's no reason to imagine the LC shouldn't happen as normal. Controlling the process and narrative around it will be the challenge. There were a couple of reports in newspapers yesterday which painted the Minister as questioning the prospects of the LC happening but I suspect it was her idea of playing hardball to get LCs back. But she would need to be careful or people will start looking for "clarity" again.
I'd be surprised if - given that all control of the infection has been lost - if we are back in school before mid-term. How the land lies at that point should be significant in decisions around exams and exam content, as well as orals/practicals.
We were in school in recent times with figures of 1,700 daily and not an eyelid was batted. If we could get back to that point at all anytime soon it'd help. Obviously the new variants are an unstable aspect of it. So hard to be sure.
But the Department of Education has been shockingly poor at dealing with the conversation around this and needs to improve that aspect. A little humility and honesty would be a start. Drawing a line in the sand and defending it at all costs is not a strategy.0 -
I suspect that the minimal changes were to leave some room for maneuver if things went awry again... which they have done.
Predictive grades are a no-go really.
It's up to the SEC now. Teachers have done their part and are probably willing to volunteer in good numbers if needs be for June/July/August.
Because of music there's precedent for all subjects to have a teacher present during practical/ oral . So Zoom etc. should be possible for languages ... dunno about Home Ec. though, maybe just postpone it till later.
I don’t know enough about the home etc practicals but if it was four students per kitchen masked and with the examiner watching the room on camera would that work?0 -
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I really, really hope the LC goes ahead. Our students overwhelmingly want the exams to happen. But they know there's a very loud majority out there calling for them to be cancelled. Or this new way of saying it "seeking clarity".
In Irish they've already given a choice of questions and less sraith pictiúr. I don't know what else they could do really. Take a poem or prose out completely maybe.
There's definitely a way to run this safely. But whether they'll want to take the time and energy (or funding) to do that is another thing.0 -
Exams won’t go ahead imo
Practicals and orals deadlines are too tight
If the vaccine had been a few months sooner ........
Predicted grades again imo0 -
Do you think that the unions or teachers will agree? It was a disaster last year, random movement of grades, inflation in some schools or classes and not in others, hassle for teacher afterwards and then releasing the order of grades in the class. I can see there being massive issues. Last year it was a bolt from the blue less than three months out, we now know how to hold the exams safely, the department has time to adjust exams and to ensure the exam conditions are safe if they haven't got these already in the works then, as I've said before, the department or the SEC is not fit for purpose.
This is before you begin to take into account the kids with underlying conditions who haven't been in school and couldn't realistically have grades predicted, teachers taking over classes this year with very little other than a few class tests to work off, zero standardisation of said tests across the country and so on. Last year there were normal tests, courses were mostly finished, mocks had been taken and corrected and so on.
Predicted grading this year could easily amount to half mad guesswork. I had 2 LC classes last year, I'd stand over my grades, I'd had them for 80% of the total senior cycle during normal class and teaching. I'd lots of exams, lots of classwork, mocks etc. I don't have this this year, I would not be basing my grades on even vaguely solid ground0 -
Exams won’t go ahead imo
Practicals and orals deadlines are too tight
If the vaccine had been a few months sooner ........
Predicted grades again imo
I am not willing to predict any grades this year, I had one mid term assessment and multiple single chapter tests from fifth year and so far I have a 90 min mid term assessment and multiple class tests from this year. Class tests do not give an accurate view of how a student is progressing so I don’t feel in a position to predict their grades.
Also I was very annoyed when I saw how inflated the grades of our very average group of students were last summer, I tried to give them an accurate grade but I seem to have been one of the very few 😟0 -
Poacher turned gamekeeper.Kerry Fianna Fáil TD Norma Foley has called for urgent clarification from the Government and the Department of Education about plans for this year's delayed Leaving Cert exams.
Deputy Foley - a teacher at Presentation Secondary School in Tralee - says she has been 'inundated' with calls from students, parents and teachers who are deeply concerned about how the exams will be run.
The Tralee based TD raised a number of serious concerns about the plans for the exams including how marks for practical exams will be applied and how exams that are typically over two hours long will be conducted under current restrictions that place strict time limits on large gatherings.
Deputy Foley said the ongoing lack of clarity over the exams is placing students under extreme stress and anxiety.
"Leaving Cert students are currently experiencing unnecessarily heightened levels of stress and anxiety due to a lack of preparedness and planning by the Department of Education some eight weeks after schools closed," she said.
Deputy Foley said it is 'inexcusable' that students are being forced to prepare for their exams in an information vacuum.
"There is absolutely no clarity for students as to how exactly the Leaving Cert exams will operate. Amazingly, the only information currently to hand is the July 29 date, nothing more" she claimed.
The Kerry TD has highlighted a myriad of concerns Minister for Education Joe McHugh.
Her concerns include the following issues among many others.
As public health measures advise that no gathering of people can extend beyond two hours does that mean that all subject exams will be for a maximum of 120mins?
If so and if a two hour exam time frame is to be the norm what exactly will be examined in each subject and will all typical exam topics appear on the paper allowing students to select their preferences?
Deputy Foley also asked what plans are in place for students and teachers who may have underlying health conditions and what measures are in place to handle a situation if a student or supervisor takes ill?
If that were to occur she asked if all those in the exam centre be required to be tested and to self-isolate.
Minister McHugh was also asked to concede that it is now "neither fair nor possible" for practical, project and coursework to be examined at this stage and that full marks for these tests should be awarded as was the case for practical elements of the music and Irish and foreign language orals.
"Students deserve equal treatment and consequently full marks should be awarded in subjects with a practical element," said Deputy Foley.
With regard to the results Deputy Foley asked what provision is being made for students who have been awarded places to study abroad from August and who do not have the option to defer?
"Leaving Cert students are currently living in a state of Limbo. In the interest of the health and well-being of all concerned now is the time for full disclosure of plans by the Department of Education. Students, parents and teachers deserve nothing less" concluded Deputy Foley.
https://www.independent.ie/regionals/kerryman/news/students-living-in-limbo-and-need-clarity-urgently-39183684.html0 -
I love the irony in the phrase "seeking clarity". It's such a weasley phrase that means nothing and offers no commitment to any solution but still allows you to claim you're being hard done by.I really, really hope the LC goes ahead. Our students overwhelmingly want the exams to happen. But they know there's a very loud majority out there calling for them to be cancelled. Or this new way of saying it "seeking clarity".
In Irish they've already given a choice of questions and less sraith pictiúr. I don't know what else they could do really. Take a poem or prose out completely maybe.
There's definitely a way to run this safely. But whether they'll want to take the time and energy (or funding) to do that is another thing.0 -
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I really, really hope the LC goes ahead. Our students overwhelmingly want the exams to happen. But they know there's a very loud majority out there calling for them to be cancelled. Or this new way of saying it "seeking clarity".
In Irish they've already given a choice of questions and less sraith pictiúr. I don't know what else they could do really. Take a poem or prose out completely maybe.
There's definitely a way to run this safely. But whether they'll want to take the time and energy (or funding) to do that is another thing.
The choice of questions means you can leave a poem and prose out completely.
I agree with the majority, no need to cancel the exams again. There was no need last year either.
The media have a case to answer in how they behaved around the leaving cert last year. It should be stamped out quickly if they attempt a similar campaign this year.0 -
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Random sample wrote: »The choice of questions means you can leave a poem and prose out completely.
I agree with the majority, no need to cancel the exams again. There was no need last year either.
The media have a case to answer in how they behaved around the leaving cert last year. It should be stamped out quickly if they attempt a similar campaign this year.
The amendments to the exam papers should ensure that teachers and students can reduce the amount of material they need to cover\revise.
Giving extra choice does not always ensure this. They way the choice is structured in Irish and English, for example, allows for the elimination of some material. In other like Maths and History, the choice structure does not allow for this and students still have to cover the whole course if they are to score well. Other subjects like Applied Maths have no amendments at all.
Some teachers aren't fully aware of the changes, or their implications, and are still trying to cover all material as usual, which leads to students thinking they have to cover all material.
Revision is well underway. If further changes are made to papers some revision work, say the work done over Christmas for example, could have all been in vain.
If further changes are required, they need to be done very soon, be clear and easy to understand and be very well communicated to the teachers and students.0 -
The amendments to the exam papers should ensure that teachers and students can reduce the amount of material they need to cover\revise.
Giving extra choice does not always ensure this. They way the choice is structured in Irish and English, for example, allows for the elimination of some material. In other like Maths and History, the choice structure does not allow for this and students still have to cover the whole course if they are to score well. Other subjects like Applied Maths have no amendments at all.
Some teachers aren't fully aware of the changes, or their implications, and are still trying to cover all material as usual, which leads to students thinking they have to cover all material.
Revision is well underway. If further changes are made to papers some revision work, say the work done over Christmas for example, could have all been in vain.
If further changes are required, they need to be done very soon, be clear and easy to understand and be very well communicated to the teachers and students.
That's not a reason for changing an exam. Guidelines were issued in September. It's a lack of professionalism if someone isn't bothered to read them. They were well flagged.0 -
With maths the extra choice doesn’t allow you to reduce content because anything can come up anywhere, multiple times and questions are multifaceted0
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The maths changes are totally inadequate. Even more so now.0
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Well, if I'm been honest.....
They are probably going to balls this all up.... Again.Fcuk Putin. Glory to Ukraine!
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mirrorwall14 wrote: »With maths the extra choice doesn’t allow you to reduce content because anything can come up anywhere, multiple times and questions are multifaceted
So true, very hard to know. You can kind of assume you don't need complex numbers but do you? What if your love Trig and it's your best subject and now it's mixed into the long question.
Would more choice again help I wonder? 7 short answer 5 and then 5 long answer 3? I'd be more comfortable with that, I'd drop a few smaller sections then alright0 -
The amendments to the exam papers should ensure that teachers and students can reduce the amount of material they need to cover\revise.
Giving extra choice does not always ensure this. They way the choice is structured in Irish and English, for example, allows for the elimination of some material. In other like Maths and History, the choice structure does not allow for this and students still have to cover the whole course if they are to score well. Other subjects like Applied Maths have no amendments at all.
Revision is well underway. If further changes are made to papers some revision work, say the work done over Christmas for example, could have all been in vain.
If further changes are required, they need to be done very soon, be clear and easy to understand and be very well communicated to the teachers and students.
Agree but will they actually make the changes that are required or give a timeline for when and what kind of changes (in a timely fashion) to allow students and teachers to plan?.....
I woukdnt hold my breath if past performance is anything tp go by they'll make another arrogant cock up of it and tell you about it with as little notice as possible0 -
Agree but will they actually make the changes that are required or give a timeline for when and what kind of changes (in a timely fashion) to allow students and teachers to plan?.....
I woukdnt hold my breath if past performance is anything tp go by they'll make another arrogant cock up of it and tell you about it with as little notice as possible
The only way that will happen is if subject associations and unions get out ahead of this now and contact the Department requesting same is done. Then publically announce that they have done so. I have written an email to this effect which I will be sending to my subject associations and union tomorrow, I encourage everyone to do the same.0 -
Nyla Worried Son wrote: »The maths changes are totally inadequate. Even more so now.
Completely agree. If they could at least tell us what topics will be covered in the each choice question it would make things easier to eliminate some topic.
My third years recently asked me was anything done to change JC maths. Even they were shocked when I told them all we know is the format will be the same as the sample paper.0 -
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History Queen wrote: »The only way that will happen is if subject associations and unions get out ahead of this now and contact the Department requesting same is done. Then publically announce that they have done so. I have written an email to this effect which I will be sending to my subject associations and union tomorrow, I encourage everyone to do the same.
Subject associations are mandated to represent their members to ncca/sec etc. Pile on the pressure.
I'm wondering is the lack of coherent changes to exam papers just an attempt to put pressure on nervous students yet again.... to demand clarity...
#dejavu0
:D:D:D:D
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