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Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)
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I think there is bit of an inferiority complex behind the hatred of the French, Deep down, they don't like them because they think the french 'Think they're better than us' and they kind of agree, that in many ways, the french have it better than the British (better weather, shorter working week, better food, better art and culture, less poverty etc) so they over compensate and create a straw man image of the french that they can then project so that they can overcome their feelings of inadequacy
It's worse for the Germans. Over the last few years, references to Germany have gone straight into the toilet.
Before Brexit, there was the usual references to "don't mention the war" and "two world wars and one world cup", but that has degenerated into "Angela Hitler's 4th Reich" style remarks.
It's the same propaganda that always works, just aim it at the intellect of a mentally deficient, malignant six year old and you will have millions of people hysterically screaming their agreement.
We've had some experience with this here...0 -
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I've stated the opinion that Brexit (with a deal) would be a death by thousand cuts that would last over a decade+ from reduced investment, new lines not being installed in the UK for factories etc. over a year ago. There was however a second result which I was expecting and commenting on which would be a direct shock which was Brexit with no deal at all.purplefields wrote: »Is this what you personally believed this time last year? - that Brexit was not going to be an instant apocalypse?
If that is the case, then I does indeed appear that I have got this wrong. We will see over the next few years I guess.
The problem with the first scenario (and it was already playing out before 31st Dec. as well, simply look at the economical growth vs. forecast from before and after the Brexit vote) is that it's not a shock. It's slowly boiling a frog scenario where there are small items in the system adding up over time; and many of them would never make a headline. It's that new factory not being set up as planned (see Grenadier for example, or Dyson), it's the investments in local business not happening (see Derbyshire cheese setting up a warehouse in the EU rather than UK as planned), it's the local business shutting down because suddenly their market is not big enough with EU red tape (see ECS Textiles for example) and many others. They are not always going to make headlines and they are definitely not always going to be called out as Brexit related. There will be reorganizations and positions are not placed in UK, or UK people being turned down for jobs in EU due to visas etc.
The problem however is all of the above adds up in the UK economical system over time; all those small cuts, those additional costs and wrinkles cause delays and costs and companies are not charities. Those costs come back to the consumer to pay (as it always does) and chips away at the living quality. That's reduced jobs in the UK, that's double regulation, that's competition you can't be competitive without going lower / high end such as if UK hormone treated beef is allowed in, no young cheap workforce from EU nations etc. Not a single one of those will be a blow; but the cumulative effect over a decade will take it's toll on the economy and the companies here. But you'll never be able to point to Brexit and say, well that's because of Brexit because the overall effect will come from 10.000 different pain points, all individually to small to be recognized yet combined has the effect of a slow moving mud wave on the economy. Many of those pain points will not be directly connected to Brexit but have a second or third wave effect from Brexit. The local trawler that can't sell the fish any more and shuts down will mean the local fishermen has less money to spend which means the local cafe can't sustain it's business etc. The young deckhand who'd normally work his way up now no longer have a career in fishing and goes unemployed instead etc. That is the real effect Brexit will have; yet you're unlikely to ever see the details being Brexit related yet the overall effect will become very visible.0 -
Why would the English language be an issue. It will still be the easiest way for people from Sweden and France communicate (individuals will vary but English will still be a handy "common"language between countries that don't naturally share a language.
If the official language of the EU ever changed from English it would be quite a shock for us! The question has already been raised (by France).0 -
France always raises that question, but now with England gone from the EU the use of English the language simply as a working tool is stronger now that there's no cultural jealousies.If the official language of the EU ever changed from English it would be quite a shock for us! The question has already been raised (by France).
For Malta and us English is merely a legacy.0 -
correct horse battery staple wrote: »Is food banks per million a good measure of brexit and Tory competency? Does bbc predict rise or fall in food bank usage in uk?
Sigh
Prior to Brexit the EU funding went to places that needed it (Wales, N. England) without local politicians benefiting / or losing out.
Post Brexit the Tory party has clearly set out their stall, if you vote Tory, then you will receive funds, if you vote labour. you will not...
Things like "food banks" going forward are not a Brexit issue, rather a simple "local" politics issue - and I would argue no longer belong on this thread?0 -
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Detritus70 wrote: »It's worse for the Germans. Over the last few years, references to Germany have gone straight into the toilet.
Before Brexit, there was the usual references to "don't mention the war" and "two world wars and one world cup", but that has degenerated into "Angela Hitler's 4th Reich" style remarks.
It's the same propaganda that always works, just aim it at the intellect of a mentally deficient, malignant six year old and you will have millions of people hysterically screaming their agreement.
We've had some experience with this here...
The fixation on WW2 is a bit off the wall. I'm very interested in the war and have read many books on the subject but to associate it with the French and German people of today is perverse. Today's 18 year olds in the two countries were born nearly sixty years after the war ended.
Those who suggest that England (or a large section of it) is having some sort of collective nervous breakdown and is not at all at ease with itself are probably correct.0 -
Pandiculation wrote: »I'd also add there's a very irrational cultural hatred of the French in aspects of England. It gets rather tiresome when you immediately get references to Napoleon and wars from centuries ago, or some ridiculous stereotype thrown when anything comes up about anything to do with France.
It isn't normal. It's actually Francophobia or Gallophobia and it seems to come from centuries of a hostile relationship with France, but also probably having absorbed a lot of anti-republican messaging in the 1700s and outrage at the French revolution and French anti-Monarchism etc and before that an anti-Catholicism in England in the 1600s and so on. However, I have no idea what it has to do with 21st century Anglo-French relations.
I do not believe it is a real hatred. I do not believe, for example, Jeremy Clarkson really hates anyone that isn't English. (I think he even has an Irish wife)
It is more a kind of humour. It could be regarded as humorous to call someone a 'Cheese eating surrender monkey'. It does not really mean that they truely hate the French. There is a certain type of dark humour that is going on there.
On the other hand, do you really believe a true hate-filled racist hates the French because they've considered Britain's hostile relationship with France, and the Napoleonic wars?0 -
purplefields wrote: »I do not believe it is a real hatred. I do not believe, for example, Jeremy Clarkson really hates anyone that isn't English. (I think he even has an Irish wife)
It is more a kind of humour. It could be regarded as humorous to call someone a 'Cheese eating surrender monkey'. It does not really mean that they truely hate the French. There is a certain type of dark humour that is going on there.
On the other hand, do you really believe a true hate-filled racist hates the French because they've considered Britain's hostile relationship with France, and the Napoleonic wars?
It's all bants man...I am sorry if you feel offended...I am not racist, some of my friends are black.0 -
Empires were built by conquest, and to impose your will on another human you must first dehumanise them, hence the portrayals of Irish and other vanquished peoples as savage apes.purplefields wrote: »I do not believe it is a real hatred. I do not believe, for example, Jeremy Clarkson really hates anyone that isn't English. (I think he even has an Irish wife)
It is more a kind of humour. It could be regarded as humorous to call someone a 'Cheese eating surrender monkey'. It does not really mean that they truely hate the French. There is a certain type of dark humour that is going on there.
On the other hand, do you really believe a true hate-filled racist hates the French because they've considered Britain's hostile relationship with France, and the Napoleonic wars?
That imperial mindset is at the heart of Brexit, that is the logic of Brexit is empire.0 -
Year on year growth is an extremely misleading statistic to use given that 2020 was a global depression due to covidpurplefields wrote: »I understand the whole covid thing, but that's effected every country. Compared to other countries there has been no brexit collapse.
In fact, I see this published just today:
UK economy set to grow at fastest rate in more than 70 years
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-57008220
The UK economy fell by 10% in 2020, (one of the worst performing economies in the world), and if it then recovers by 7.5% in 2021 They're still much poorer than it was in 2019
The Eurozone fell by 7% in 2020 so even if the Eurozone only recovers by 5% this year, we'll be comparatively much better off than the UK over the same period
(interestingly, Ireland's GDP actually grew in 2020 by 3%, possibly a Brexit dividend as financial services and trade with the EU moved from the UK to Irish suppliers)0 -
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An article in the Guardian today on the Jersey saga has some real jawdrop-facepalm quotes ...Now they are not being allowed to land their catch in France and are desperately seeking another route, looking at the possibility of getting the lobster and crabs to continental Europe via England. “It used to take a few hours to get it there, it will take days now,” said Carvalho. “We don’t know how to do what we used to do. All this is because of Brexit and we didn’t even get a say in it.”I wasn’t for Brexit but now I’d like France to exit the EU – then Jersey and France would be able to work it out themselves.Stephen Vinney, 54, who owns a boat called Progress, expressed frustration that it is the French rather than Jersey fishers who have been making the headlines.
“We’re suffering far more than they are,” he said. “They have EU subsidy given to take the sting out of Brexit. Jersey has had nothing in support.”
Funny how the young fella's solution to the problem is for France to leave the EU - no suggestion that Jersey leaves the Empire and forges a new, barrier-free future with its nearest, biggest neighbour. :rolleyes:0 -
purplefields wrote: »I do not believe it is a real hatred. I do not believe, for example, Jeremy Clarkson really hates anyone that isn't English. (I think he even has an Irish wife)
It is more a kind of humour. It could be regarded as humorous to call someone a 'Cheese eating surrender monkey'. It does not really mean that they truely hate the French. There is a certain type of dark humour that is going on there.
On the other hand, do you really believe a true hate-filled racist hates the French because they've considered Britain's hostile relationship with France, and the Napoleonic wars?
What I do believe is the experience of many of my French speaking friends in the UK, who've had seriously nasty xenophobic abuse from random strangers, based on their accents or the fact that they were speaking French.
There was always a bit of banter, and there was always a bit of a tendency to suddenly snap and call someone 'frog' or similar in anger, but this is a whole other level of random abuse in recent years and it's flowing from Brexit politics enabling some of those people who wouldn't have had the balls to display their xenophobia a decade ago, but are now somehow feeling they've a legitimate right to be complete ....s
I think it's way beyond banter when someone just comes out with a statement like "I hate the French - they smell of garlic" (literally said to a French person I know who was working in a shop in London). That's not banter. It's xenophobia.
There's a significant issue with xenophobia and I think it's absolute nonsense to say it's just a bit of banter.
Also, the anti-french sentiment is legitimised in humour, much as anti-Irish sentiment used to be. One has become unacceptable or at least uncouth, the other is still seen as perfectly legitimate. The fact that France is a large, wealthy European country with plenty of self confidence, doesn't mean that someone working in a cafe in London should be subject to random abuse like that by some moron who thinks its ok to just hurl abuse at a Frenchwoman because that's what they're hearing on social media / in the papers etc.
From what I can see it's hatred and it's also regularly displayed in the way football hooliganism over there seems to almost play like proxy war or at the very least extreme tribalism, particularly when playing against certain countries that they don't like.
It's a culture, which was often a subculture rather than mainstream, and it's stirred by jingoistic newspapers and other outlets and 'banter' that rallies the troops and it turns nasty. I don't think there's really any other way of describing it and in my experience, that culture is very much the element of England where most of Brexit seems to find its energy too.0 -
The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »Is Ireland a good comparison? Our GDP is fairly vastly inflated by multinationals.
That's why we use GNI in Ireland0 -
I'd just add on the economic performance, it's very hard to strip out the impacts of Brexit and the impacts of COVID-19 separately at this stage, but looking at an article from the 24th of March this year:A net total of 9,877 chain outlets and 1,442 independent retail, restaurant and leisure premises closed their doors in England, Wales and Scotland in 2020, according to the Local Data Company (LDC). The analysis covered 680,000 outlets in 3,000 shopping locations.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/mar/24/british-high-street-lost-11000-shops-in-2020-study-shows0 -
In finding it increasingly difficult to maintain what I have with my English friends. Last night, and last weekend, Brexit and vaccines have come up over beers with multiple people. Colleagues in work who never discussed this stuff before are the same. For years, Brexit negotiations were embarrassing and it was never talked about, but now they're itching to being it all up.
The EU needs the UK to be content with their Brexit, so if they want to facetiously use No Deal as a benchmark, or pretend they don't know what number to use as a denominator, or focus on vaccines and avoid deaths, let them. The fewer details of negotiations that are in the tabloids, the better.0 -
purplefields wrote: »I do not believe it is a real hatred. I do not believe, for example, Jeremy Clarkson really hates anyone that isn't English. (I think he even has an Irish wife)
It is more a kind of humour. It could be regarded as humorous to call someone a 'Cheese eating surrender monkey'. It does not really mean that they truely hate the French. There is a certain type of dark humour that is going on there.
On the other hand, do you really believe a true hate-filled racist hates the French because they've considered Britain's hostile relationship with France, and the Napoleonic wars?
Even if you were to buy the "humour" excuse, is that not an incredibly puerile and infantile level of "humour" for a huge swathe of the population and media to subscribe to?
You know when someone has to resort to "It could be regarded as humorous..." that the thing they're describing it's funny at all, or even meant as a joke.0 -
Empires were built by conquest, and to impose your will on another human you must first dehumanise them, hence the portrayals of Irish and other vanquished peoples as savage apes.
That imperial mindset is at the heart of Brexit, that is the logic of Brexit is empire.
A very accurate, concise and neat summing up of what is happening.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »In finding it increasingly difficult to maintain what I have with my English friends. Last night, and last weekend, Brexit and vaccines have come up over beers with multiple people. Colleagues in work who never discussed this stuff before are the same. For years, Brexit negotiations were embarrassing and it was never talked about, but now they're itching to being it all up.
The EU needs the UK to be content with their Brexit, so if they want to facetiously use No Deal as a benchmark, or pretend they don't know what number to use as a denominator, or focus on vaccines and avoid deaths, let them. The fewer details of negotiations that are in the tabloids, the better.
Looking in from the outside, Brexit UK is in a very strange place at the moment. Apart from the vaccines and the row with France, I notice the newspapers are absolutely full of culture war stuff : "wokeism", cancel culture, transgender rights, Harry and Meghan, flags and statues, 'freedom of speech' etc.
It gives me a bad feeling, none of this stuff is healthy (and it seems to be helped in no small way by the UK putting up barriers against the EU since the start of the year).0 -
Looking in from the outside, Brexit UK is in a very strange place at the moment. Apart from the vaccines and the row with France, I notice the newspapers are absolutely full of culture war stuff : "wokeism", cancel culture, transgender rights, Harry and Meghan, flags and statues, 'freedom of speech' etc.
It gives me a bad feeling, none of this stuff is healthy (and it seems to be helped in no small way by the UK putting up barriers against the EU since the start of the year).
I think there's a strong sense of dying media around a lot of those.
I live in the uk and I tend to find out a lot of what's been in the british newspapers not from the papers themselves but from social media posts about the news stories, often not in a good light about the media involved.
I dont think I'm alone in that, I've often ended up in the situation of explaining some news story to people at work or in social circles, a lot of my younger friends (25 - 30) have taken a policy of just outright cutting out most news media from their day to day lives. Just scrapping the bare minimum of necessary news reports and ignoring pretty much the rest. Most people my age and older just seem to have too much personal **** going on to deal with what most news reports are saying.
So it does feel as their base of readers keeps shrinking these papers tend to get more extreme to hold onto to those readers.
This definitely feels to be the case with the Express. But I think the other papers are feeling it too, the telegraph has always been the more conservative paper but since it's gone pay to read on it's articles their headlines have gotten a lot more clickbaity to 'own the libs'.
Though I wont claim its the sole cause, there are just some topics in the UK that are just weirdly a bigger deal now and I think Brexit just sort of becomes a catch all for most of them
I cant even begin to understand why the transgender debate in the UK is so toxic, more so then the US in a lot of ways.0 -
BlitzKrieg wrote: »I think there's a strong sense of dying media around a lot of those.
I live in the uk and I tend to find out a lot of what's been in the british newspapers not from the papers themselves but from social media posts about the news stories, often not in a good light about the media involved.
I dont think I'm alone in that, I've often ended up in the situation of explaining some news story to people at work or in social circles, a lot of my younger friends (25 - 30) have taken a policy of just outright cutting out most news media from their day to day lives. Just scrapping the bare minimum of necessary news reports and ignoring pretty much the rest. Most people my age and older just seem to have too much personal **** going on to deal with what most news reports are saying.
So it does feel as their base of readers keeps shrinking these papers tend to get more extreme to hold onto to those readers.
This definitely feels to be the case with the Express. But I think the other papers are feeling it too, the telegraph has always been the more conservative paper but since it's gone pay to read on it's articles their headlines have gotten a lot more clickbaity to 'own the libs'.
Though I wont claim its the sole cause, there are just some topics in the UK that are just weirdly a bigger deal now and I think Brexit just sort of becomes a catch all for most of them
I cant even begin to understand why the transgender debate in the UK is so toxic, more so then the US in a lot of ways.
I hear your points but the contrast with Ireland is really striking - Irish media is preoccupied with Covid 19, the restrictions, the vaccination programme and I notice housing and property are getting an airing lately. All of that culture war stuff and wokeism and identity politics barely even gets a look in. It definitely seems to be the case that the legacy English media are stirring things to the max for whatever reason (perhaps they are linking the Brexiteers / Conservatives to one side of the debate in order to boost them?).0 -
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I am in the UK too, and even if there is a sense of dying media, it is still soaked up by much of the public with catchy headlines and threats/fear of wokism with the socialist middle classes and the evil EU stealing british fish. The BBC shamelessly support these headlines with their "entertainment" propaganda news.
As a result, the working class hate of the educated middle classes in Labour London has been a huge success for the Tories - as seen in Hartlepool.
The older generation still buy and read those rags - 'tis a huge problem in the UK. My older, retired neighbours (both of whom are lovely and I am incredibly fond of them) are generational Tories, in the family.. born and bred. They read the nonsense rags and swallow it whole. During the last year's lock down there was plenty of the pandemic is not Boris' fault. I always rib them about privatisation, poverty/food banks and rarely does it penetrate their stubborn tory skin. Next week I'll be out in the garden telling them I tactically voted Lib Dems last Thursday to keep the tories out locally (we succeeded) and they'll shake their heads in disgust, lol.
This country is full of people like my neigbours: fed by the media and full of dangerous ignorance.0 -
I imagine 1930s Germany looked similar in many ways and I don't say that lightly. I think the ignorance and the "we were a great empire" stuff is really dangerous. It doesn't take much to push things too far.Mr.Wemmick wrote: »I am in the UK too, and even if there is a sense of dying media, it is still soaked up by much of the public with catchy headlines and threats/fear of wokism with the socialist middle classes and the evil EU stealing british fish. The BBC shamelessly support these headlines with their "entertainment" propaganda news.
As a result, the working class hate of the educated middle classes in Labour London has been a huge success for the Tories - as seen in Hartlepool.
The older generation still buy and read those rags - 'tis a huge problem in the UK. My older, retired neighbours (both of whom are lovely and I am incredibly fond of them) are generational Tories, in the family.. born and bred. They read the nonsense rags and swallow it whole. During the last year's lock down there was plenty of the pandemic is not Boris' fault. I always rib them about privatisation, poverty/food banks and rarely does it penetrate their stubborn tory skin. Next week I'll be out in the garden telling them I tactically voted Lib Dems last Thursday to keep the tories out locally (we succeeded) and they'll shake their heads in disgust, lol.
This country is full of people like my neigbours: fed by the media and full of dangerous ignorance.
It's a great pity we "have" to engage so much with the UK from the EU, from ancient Belgian fishing agreements to Northern Ireland to Gibratar to Cyprus. We can't just disengage and "let them get on with it". That would be my preferred option if at all possible-just have as little as possible to do with them while they sort themselves out over the next generation. They really have become much more trouble than they are worth.0 -
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Mr.Wemmick wrote: »I am in the UK too, and even if there is a sense of dying media, it is still soaked up by much of the public with catchy headlines and threats/fear of wokism with the socialist middle classes and the evil EU stealing british fish. The BBC shamelessly support these headlines with their "entertainment" propaganda news.
As a result, the working class hate of the educated middle classes in Labour London has been a huge success for the Tories - as seen in Hartlepool.
The older generation still buy and read those rags - 'tis a huge problem in the UK. My older, retired neighbours (both of whom are lovely and I am incredibly fond of them) are generational Tories, in the family.. born and bred. They read the nonsense rags and swallow it whole. During the last year's lock down there was plenty of the pandemic is not Boris' fault. I always rib them about privatisation, poverty/food banks and rarely does it penetrate their stubborn tory skin. Next week I'll be out in the garden telling them I tactically voted Lib Dems last Thursday to keep the tories out locally (we succeeded) and they'll shake their heads in disgust, lol.
This country is full of people like my neigbours: fed by the media and full of dangerous ignorance.
I can understand the Tory middle classes of the well to do South East and South West of England voting Tory in a tribal sense of loyalty to their kind - well off and well educated for generations.
What I cannot understand is why working class earning below average wages, in poor neighbourhoods like Hartlepool would vote Tory.
There is no way the Tories will benefit them economically, socially, or in anyway. The Tories have cut taxes for the wealthy, cut social welfare for the poor, cut the public services which would not be a benefit for the poor.
The only explanation I can come up with is that these people do not like to consider themselves poor.James Clarence Mangan:
O woman of Three Cows, agra! don't let your tongue thus rattle!
O, don't be saucy, don't be stiff, because you may have cattle.
I have seen—and, here's my hand to you, I only say what's true—
A many a one with twice your stock not half so proud as you.
Good luck to you, don't scorn the poor, and don't be their despiser,
For worldly wealth soon melts away, and cheats the very miser,
And Death soon strips the proudest wreath from haughty human brows;
Then don't be stiff, and don't be proud, good Woman of Three Cows!
And so on0 -
Empires were built by conquest, and to impose your will on another human you must first dehumanise them, hence the portrayals of Irish and other vanquished peoples as savage apes.
That imperial mindset is at the heart of Brexit, that is the logic of Brexit is empire.
Completely agree. So so many of them are living in the past. So many of them are still fighting their ancestors wars in their heads, and were when they voted in the referendum. On so many levels this is just bonkers.
The UK mindset grated at the idea they were 1/28th of the EU. No longer the Great British Empire ruling the waves.
Now being egged on with multiple Union Jacks and pictures of the Queen in every televised interview the Tories do. Peak moment being James Wild tory MP here:
https://twitter.com/jamesowild/status/1374052717841223683?s=200 -
Sam Russell wrote: »I can understand the Tory middle classes of the well to do South East and South West of England voting Tory in a tribal sense of loyalty to their kind - well off and well educated for generations.
What I cannot understand is why working class earning below average wages, in poor neighbourhoods like Hartlepool would vote Tory.
There is no way the Tories will benefit them economically, socially, or in anyway. The Tories have cut taxes for the wealthy, cut social welfare for the poor, cut the public services which would not be a benefit for the poor.
The only explanation I can come up with is that these people do not like to consider themselves poor.
I think they just really hate the alternatives and any change voting for them might mean?
In their heads at least voting tory is predictable whereas the alternative can bring change and change has never been good for large swathes of that demographic.............little do they realise things could get a lot worse
A stockholm syndrome of sorts + The tories have successfully linked themselves in the minds of some of those voters to a rosy picture of a return to a fairytale notion of the way it used to be, then for others at least you can work with predictable misery but the thoughts of liberals getting their way makes them very nervous...............
They may be well aware they are poor but not believe voting for any tory alternatives would do anything to change that but it could make their lives what they consider to be even more unpalatable
+Its all so polarised and most forms of media benefit from that polarisation so they push it.........it can be hard to find a moderate person talk to in certain demographics now even in Ireland, everyone seems driven by some sort of outrage at some sort of injustice and deeply distrustful of what the "other side" has to say regardless of its logic/content....electoral systems/political systems contribute to it too..............0 -
Sam Russell wrote: »I can understand the Tory middle classes of the well to do South East and South West of England voting Tory in a tribal sense of loyalty to their kind - well off and well educated for generations.
What I cannot understand is why working class earning below average wages, in poor neighbourhoods like Hartlepool would vote Tory.
There is no way the Tories will benefit them economically, socially, or in anyway. The Tories have cut taxes for the wealthy, cut social welfare for the poor, cut the public services which would not be a benefit for the poor.
The only explanation I can come up with is that these people do not like to consider themselves poor.
Why this is happening is a complex picture that has roots going back decades at this stage of course, but in the here and now, if you were a disillusioned labour voter in, say, Hartlepool, and you were seeing money being funneled into neighbouring constituencies that had gone tory in 2019, wouldn't you be tempted to switch your vote too? It's basically bribery but it's just politics too.0 -
That MP asking about the flags is ludicrous. And I read there was some guy called Fred from Hartlepool calling LBC explaining that he switched to the Tories and he praised them for giving them nine food banks there when Labour gave them none.0
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From my time living in England it was obvious there were two tribes, pre and post internet.
The pre internet tribe still programmed to receive information, whereas the post internet tribe understood that if they could create content then so can anyone.
Unfortunately the demographics of England has as many voters over the age of 55 than under, the legacy media of newspapers and TV still have an enormous hold on the narrative. I can't see the English punch and judy jingoistic political culture changing until the majority of voters understand that they've been manipulated.
Compounding this is the fact that a decade of Bojo bingo will only drive the best and brightest to the EU so it's not like demographics decline will aid a change in the narrative.0 -
As it was ever thus.I imagine 1930s Germany looked similar in many ways and I don't say that lightly. I think the ignorance and the "we were a great empire" stuff is really dangerous. It doesn't take much to push things too far.
It's a great pity we "have" to engage so much with the UK from the EU, from ancient Belgian fishing agreements to Northern Ireland to Gibratar to Cyprus. We can't just disengage and "let them get on with it". That would be my preferred option if at all possible-just have as little as possible to do with them while they sort themselves out over the next generation. They really have become much more trouble than they are worth.
Remember the talk of an extension late last year? I was close to a table flipping rage.0 -
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Call me Al wrote: »Completely agree. So so many of them are living in the past. So many of them are still fighting their ancestors wars in their heads, and were when they voted in the referendum. On so many levels this is just bonkers.
The UK mindset grated at the idea they were 1/28th of the EU. No longer the Great British Empire ruling the waves.
Now being egged on with multiple Union Jacks and pictures of the Queen in every televised interview the Tories do. Peak moment being James Wild tory MP here:
https://twitter.com/jamesowild/status/1374052717841223683?s=20
That's the most ridiculous thing I've seen in a long time. And that's sayings something.
When belligerent loyalists act like this they are a laughing stock, and yet...?0
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