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Do you think nurses will get their payrise?

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Comments

  • #2652
    STB.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,380 ✭✭✭STB.


    backspin. wrote: »
    43 is not the max, you missed the LSI and those are the 2018 figures you are quoting.

    45,703 is the max.

    You ignoring their allowances?

    https://inmo.ie/salary_information


    The LSI is another 3 years at the top yeah ? So after 14 years, they get 45,703. So 18 years after training to be a nurse, that's what midwives and staff nurses can achieve as a basic pay - 45,703. Its worse than I originally thought.

    I didn't ignore the allowances (I posted a link to the payscales that includes the allowances on the second page). The allowances are for extra qualifications and putting in more hours etc above the basic.
    jlm29 wrote: »
    They may not all start as CNMs, but there are many opportunities available for career progression for those that want them. From what I’ve seen, many nurses who do not move away from shift work at ward level choose this, because it suits their family life, childcare arrangements, etc.
    Postgraduate study is frequently funded by the hse, and promotions created to meet them when they get their postgrad certs.

    But Jim, the basic pay scale there tells you what nurses are getting in basic pay for say the first few years after qualifying up to 14 years. I accept that some will be promoted. Do you think you'd be able to afford a mortgage on it ? Would I do it ? Not a hope.


  • #2653
    brendanwalsh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 988 ✭✭✭brendanwalsh


    craggyjack wrote: »
    Qualification Entitlement/Allowance €2,791 per annum
    Dual Qualified Allowance €1,395 per annum
    Sunday Allowance Never heard of this!
    Sunday Premium Double time
    Night Duty Allowance Time and a quarter
    Unit Allowance If you mean location allowance, €1,858 per annum
    Nurse Coordinator Allowance Never heard of this!
    Specialist Coordinator Allowance Never heard of this!
    Community Allowance €4,962 - €5,911 per annum
    Nurse assigned to Occupational Therapy(Qualified) €3,732 per annum
    Nurse assigned to Occupational Therapy (Unqualified) €1,702 per annum

    Also, what is the overtime rate ? And is it the same for public holidays?Overtime is generally paid at time and a quarter, except when it is on night duty after midnight when it is double pay, Saturday after four hours at time and a quarter then double time.

    I have to say that Is a serious amount of basic salary top ups. No other public sector worker gets this or even private sector .
    Not to mention they also get travel expenses, they get fully paid Masters degrees and they get paid for the four year degree.
    Those numbers above are nearly a basic salary by itself.
    Double time to work nights and then they get a week holidays anyway after the week of nights! Where do I sign up?


  • #2654
    alloywheel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 245 ✭✭alloywheel


    STB. wrote: »
    It would be nigh impossible to have an abenteesim rate of 100,000 staff in one month.

    Or even absenteeism?

    Thats not what I said. I said (and I quoted the source to back it up, the Examiner) ""A STARTLING 100,000 working days were lost in one month in the HSE due to absenteeism."
    That would not be the same as "an abenteesim rate of 100,000 staff in one month", which I did not say or claim.

    Yet again you do not get your facts right.


  • #2655
    STB.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,380 ✭✭✭STB.


    alloywheel wrote: »
    Or even absenteeism?

    Thats not what I said. I said (and I quoted the source to back it up, the Examiner) ""A STARTLING 100,000 working days were lost in one month in the HSE due to absenteeism."
    That would not be the same as "an abenteesim rate of 100,000 staff in one month", which I did not say or claim.

    Yet again you do not get your facts right.


    No you did say it, quite disparagingly too. 6th time its quoted to you. And you said it the context of nurses. Even if was the HSE, its a impossible figure to achieve with a lower workforce. Don't believe everything you read in the newspapers either. Some of it is written by guys with lower IQ's than you Mr Mensa.

    Originally Posted by alloywheel viewpost.gif
    If there was not 100,000 days a month lost to absenteeism it would help a lot. The slighest bit of a cold or a hangover or an ache and they are off. Even nurses themselves admit that.


  • #2656
    tretorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭tretorn


    Some nurses I know work three nights a month and I think they get in and around a thousand euros after tax for this.They take on extra work such as giving injections on a mobile basis on their time off.

    One student nurse I know stays overnight with an elderly person for two nights a week, she gets 150 euros per night into her hand, that’s not bad for a twenty year old. I think student nurses can call themselves carers and some make a lot of money caring for elderly people during the day. The student nurses seem to have quite a bit of free time.


  • #2657
    alloywheel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 245 ✭✭alloywheel


    STB. wrote: »
    If there was not 100,000 days a month lost to absenteeism it would help a lot. The slighest bit of a cold or a hangover or an ache and they are off. Even nurses themselves admit that.

    I actually wrote
    alloywheel wrote: »
    If there was not 100,000 days a month lost to absenteeism it would help a lot. The slighest bit of a cold or a hangover or an ache and they are off. Even nurses themselves admit that.

    That is entirely consistent with the quote I provided from the Examiner
    alloywheel wrote: »
    n.b Even if you just google "100,000 absenteeism in the HSE", the Examiner says "A STARTLING 100,000 working days were lost in one month in the HSE due to absenteeism."

    I also provided other quotes about the HSE. I think I may have hit a raw nerve about absenteeism in the HSE, there, are you one of those who were let go by the HSE for absenteeism? You would have to be pretty bad for that surely?

    Quote "Absenteeism in the HSE amounts to 10 days per worker in one year ".
    https://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/yourview/absenteeism-in-the-hse-amounts-to-10-days-per-worker-in-one-year-309467.html


    Quote "The overall rate of absenteeism in the HSE in 2013 was 4.73pc – almost twice that of private companies."

    "The sick days are costing the health sector around €230m a year"

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/absenteeism-bill-erodes-hse-costcutting-30185829.html

    Quote: "More staff absences in health than any other sector"
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/more-staff-absences-in-health-than-any-other-sector-1.3466166?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fhealth%2Fmore-staff-absences-in-health-than-any-other-sector-1.3466166

    And how come staff in the HSE get sicker than the staff in the NHS? Are they not as healthy?
    Quote "In 2016 recorded an absence rate across all workers in the ( NHS ) health sector of 3.5%."
    https://www.bmj.com/content/361/bmj.k2210
    How come in Ireland in the HSE it is between 4.5 and 5%?


  • #2658
    Mocadonna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 45 ✭Mocadonna


    Martina1991 wrote: »
    It would be unfair to have nurses salaries brought in line with other health care workers and still get all the allowances, paid qualifications, overtime, and working nights to accumulate more time off.

    Exactly this. It would be taken as a slap in the face by the other health care workers in my opinion. Are there any other arguments for this apart from nurses having degrees? Genuinely would like to hear them.


  • #2659
    backspin.
    Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭backspin.


    Mocadonna wrote: »
    Exactly this. It would be taken as a slap in the face by the other health care workers in my opinion. Are there any other arguments for this apart from nurses having degrees? Genuinely would like to hear them.

    I would like to know what is a typical nurse on the max of the scale (€45,701) actually getting paid in a given year after all the allowances etc. Is it 50K, 52K, 57K or what?


  • #2660
    alloywheel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 245 ✭✭alloywheel


    backspin. wrote: »
    I would like to know what is a typical nurse on the max of the scale (€45,701) actually getting paid in a given year after all the allowances etc. Is it 50K, 52K, 57K or what?


    I bet they will not come on here to say that. However, a quick google shows that in 2013 it was reported by the Examiner "Four staff nurses earned over €140,000 last year "https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/four-staff-nurses-earned-over-140000-last-year-229997.html
    Probably a bit more now?


  • #2661
    Mocadonna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 45 ✭Mocadonna


    backspin. wrote: »
    I would like to know what is a typical nurse on the max of the scale (€45,701) actually getting paid in a given year after all the allowances etc. Is it 50K, 52K, 57K or what?

    Me too. I know that nurse posted her pay slip on twitter but it turns out it was on old one and hadn't got up to date allowances for all the qualifications/responsibilities that she listed. She admitted this herself in the Twitter comments. It's just more of this disingenuous stuff. I'd love to see a proper payslip with no agenda or spin and we can make up our own minds.

    If I was a nurse though I'd be careful not to denigrate or annoy the other HCPs too much during this... That could come back to bite very hard.


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  • #2662
    hawkelady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,357 ✭✭✭hawkelady


    I see some nurses are currently working 24 non stop in certain hospitals because there isn’t anyone to hand over to because of the strike starting at 8am !!! And some on here saying nurses only look after themselves and are selfish !!! Well there’s a myth busted !!!


  • #2663
    judeboy101
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭judeboy101


    hawkelady wrote: »
    I see some nurses are currently working 24 non stop in certain hospitals because there isn’t anyone to hand over to because of the strike starting at 8am !!! And some on here saying nurses only look after themselves and are selfish !!! Well there’s a myth busted !!!

    Putting patients at risk no doubt.


  • #2664
    hawkelady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,357 ✭✭✭hawkelady


    judeboy101 wrote: »
    Putting patients at risk no doubt.

    Or they could have went home after their 13 hr shift ..... but didn’t did they. Don’t think they can legally leave patients ... .. tough job , isn’t it. Also debunks other posters here saying they have it easy etc.


  • #2665
    Wheeliebin30
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,593 ✭✭✭Wheeliebin30


    hawkelady wrote: »
    Or they could have went home after their 13 hr shift ..... but didn’t did they. Don’t think they can legally leave patients ... .. tough job , isn’t it. Also debunks other posters here saying they have it easy etc.

    But that’s because they are choosing to strike?


  • #2666
    Thephantomsmask
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,369 ✭✭✭Thephantomsmask


    hawkelady wrote: »
    I see some nurses are currently working 24 non stop in certain hospitals because there isn’t anyone to hand over to because of the strike starting at 8am !!! And some on here saying nurses only look after themselves and are selfish !!! Well there’s a myth busted !!!

    We were told yesterday that there is a list of nurses kept at the picket lines ready to come in for emergencies because they would not put patients in danger. Where have they gone that they won't relieve their colleagues? Unless they don't want to relieve their SIPTU colleagues that didn't vote for strike action?


  • #2667
    jlm29
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,818 ✭✭✭jlm29


    hawkelady wrote: »
    I see some nurses are currently working 24 non stop in certain hospitals because there isn’t anyone to hand over to because of the strike starting at 8am !!! And some on here saying nurses only look after themselves and are selfish !!! Well there’s a myth busted !!!

    Sounds like the ones at the gate in that scenario are only looking after themselves and are selfish. I think that for the most part, there’s enough nurses worried about paying their bills in a couple of weeks that that isn’t happening.


  • #2668
    pjohnson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,148 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    hawkelady wrote: »
    I see some nurses are currently working 24 non stop in certain hospitals because there isn’t anyone to hand over to because of the strike starting at 8am !!! And some on here saying nurses only look after themselves and are selfish !!! Well there’s a myth busted !!!

    Ehm this literally proves how selfish the strikers are?


  • #2669
    1641
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,274 ✭✭✭1641


    backspin. wrote: »
    I would like to know what is a typical nurse on the max of the scale (€45,701) actually getting paid in a given year after all the allowances etc. Is it 50K, 52K, 57K or what?
    STB. wrote: »
    The LSI is another 3 years at the top yeah ? So after 14 years, they get 45,703. So 18 years after training to be a nurse, that's what midwives and staff nurses can achieve as a basic pay - 45,703. Its worse than I originally thought.

    I didn't ignore the allowances (I posted a link to the payscales that includes the allowances on the second page). The allowances are for extra qualifications and putting in more hours etc above the basic..


    The allowances and premiums cannot be ignored or downplayed. I recall the nurses settled a previous dispute (maybe 10-12 years ago, I'm not sure) by way of increases in allowances - so as to avoid it been seen as a break in the pay agreement then. It is disingenuous of the union to claim they are not part of the equation.There are widespread allowances/premiums, not available to other grades, and are a part of the total remuneration package.


    I am not sure what a typical nurse actually is but the Pay Cpmmission found the following as regards average earnings for staff nurses/midwives :


    "The Commission found that the average earning for all HSE staff nurses and midwives (excluding all promotional grades) in 2017 was approximately €51,000 including allowances overtime and other payment".
    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=18&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwj8ifX2mKngAhVhShUIHeeACVMQFjARegQIDBAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thejournal.ie%2Firish-healthcare-pay-rates-4218924-Sep2018%2F&usg=AOvVaw1peJt9T0hm8dGDfY4IwWfk


  • #2670
    alloywheel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 245 ✭✭alloywheel


    Including part time workers?. Including full time nurses only another study found it was €57,000

    Either way nurses have well paid, secure, pensionable jobs. Interesting the study above found that "pay rates do not appear to be unduly affecting the number of nurses, midwives and doctors applying to work abroad”.


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  • #2671
    STB.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,380 ✭✭✭STB.


    The telling thing of course here throughout this thread is the fg bots and stay at home chaps who make no contribution to soceity other than queue at the local dole office. The same chaps no doubt attempting to attribute headlines to nurses measured in hours from ten years ago.

    The truth in the matter is that this government have run all infrastructure down to nothing. Meanwhile Simon Harris was asleep at the wheel building a 2 billion euro hospital. The overspend would have paid for any type of pay gap for nurses.


  • #2672
    alloywheel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 245 ✭✭alloywheel


    STB. wrote: »
    The truth in the matter is that this government have run all infrastructure down to nothing.

    lol. There was a link earlier in the thread showing the hard pressed taxpayer here spends much more on healthcare per head of population than the OECD average, and our nurses are some of the best paid and pensioned in the world. And I think there are more nurses and union bots on this thread than FG bots or stay at home chaps as you call them. All I know is that I am none of the above, thank you.


  • #2673
    1641
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,274 ✭✭✭1641


    alloywheel wrote: »
    Including part time workers?. Including full time nurses only another study found it was €57,000

    Either way nurses have well paid, secure, pensionable jobs. Interesting the study above found that "pay rates do not appear to be unduly affecting the number of nurses, midwives and doctors applying to work abroad”.




    No - the finding was on the basis of Whole Time Equivalents. So two job-sharers would equal one WTE, etc. Presumably it was calculated by dividing the gross wages paid to staff/midwife grades and dividing it by the number of WTEs, or something like that.



    I think the €57000 figure comes from calculating the average when all grades are involved. As there are far fewer at the higher grade level, the increase in the overall average would not be very dramatic.


  • #2674
    Wheeliebin30
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,593 ✭✭✭Wheeliebin30


    STB. wrote: »
    The telling thing of course here throughout this thread is the fg bots and stay at home chaps who make no contribution to soceity other than queue at the local dole office. The same chaps no doubt attempting to attribute headlines to nurses measured in hours from ten years ago.

    The truth in the matter is that this government have run all infrastructure down to nothing. Meanwhile Simon Harris was asleep at the wheel building a 2 billion euro hospital. The overspend would have paid for any type of pay gap for nurses.

    2 billion?

    Have you a link for your absolute nonsense lies?


  • #2675
    alloywheel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 245 ✭✭alloywheel


    1641 wrote: »
    No - the finding was on the basis of Whole Time Equivalents. So two job-sharers would equal one WTE, etc. Presumably it was calculated by dividing the gross wages paid to staff/midwife grades and dividing it by the number of WTEs, or something like that.



    I think the €57000 figure comes from calculating the average when all grades are involved. As there are far fewer at the higher grade level, the increase in the overall average would not be very dramatic.
    I have to go to work now but thanks for that, I had not the time to read the journal link fully 10 minutes ago.


  • #2676
    facehugger99
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,393 ✭✭✭facehugger99


    STB. wrote: »

    The truth in the matter is that this government have run all infrastructure down to nothing.

    I agree - Government chose to prioritise cuts capital spending rather than reduce spending on PS pay and pensions during the recession.

    We're paying for those decisions now - but it's always been more palatable for Ministers to kick infrastructure spending down the road than to stand up to the greedy public servants.

    We're still running a deficit.

    200 billion in debt and rising.

    No more money for nurses.

    This thread has thoroughly demolished any arguments regarding poor pay - the basic pay and available allowances are ridiculously generous.

    The current strike actions are wholly unjustified, immoral and greedy.


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  • #2677
    STB.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,380 ✭✭✭STB.


    It's clear what you are alloy wheel from reading your posts. Regging in February to post about nurses pay increases and that you would stick in your throat to vote fg but you would do it if it meant that nurses didn't get a pay increase.

    The you pull stats measured in hours and attempt to attribute them to nurses. When u get caught u try and say it's the HSE which is an organisation made up of a third nurses. The u try and use figures that are measured against other sectors during the downturn whilst the reasons for the downturn in the other sectors was the reduced workers in that sector. Then u attempt to measure the bigger numbered UK health service against the Irish and don't recognise that 3% of a bigger figure is actually more people.

    Like I said earlier, it's evident what you don't do. Me I've work to do. Enjoy your daytime Jeremy Kyle programmes.


  • #2678
    Graces7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    facehugger99 wrote: »
    I agree - Government chose to prioritise cuts capital spending rather than reduce spending on PS pay and pensions during the recession.

    We're paying for those decisions now - but it's always been more palatable for Ministers to kick infrastructure spending down the road than to stand up to the greedy public servants.

    We're still running a deficit.

    200 billion in debt and rising.

    No more money for nurses.

    This thread has thoroughly demolished any arguments regarding poor pay - the basic pay and available allowances are ridiculously generous.

    The current strike actions are wholly unjustified, immoral and greedy.


    From the RTE update today

    "It is the third day on the picket line with no sign of a breakthrough in the escalating dispute.

    Once again, all outpatient, inpatient and day surgery appointments are cancelled, as are routine community nursing services and health centre nurse clinics.

    As on Tuesday, the strike will hit respite and rehabilitation units for the elderly or those with intellectual disability.

    Three further consecutive strike days are scheduled for next week.

    Mental health services are also in the crossfire - after the Psychiatric Nurses Association escalated its overtime ban to run through the night".

    And such cheerful faces

    https://www.rte.ie/news/2019/0207/1028020-nurses_strike_day_3/

    The strike is causing suffering and that is its aim.

    Off out for a walk ....


  • #2679
    mooreman09
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 583 ✭✭✭mooreman09


    Off to work here lads... Some serious creeps on here.

    Good luck to the nurses today.


  • #2680
    Gunmonkey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,067 ✭✭✭Gunmonkey


    STB. wrote: »
    The telling thing of course here throughout this thread is the fg bots and stay at home chaps who make no contribution to soceity other than queue at the local dole office. The same chaps no doubt attempting to attribute headlines to nurses measured in hours from ten years ago.

    The truth in the matter is that this government have run all infrastructure down to nothing. Meanwhile Simon Harris was asleep at the wheel building a 2 billion euro hospital. The overspend would have paid for any type of pay gap for nurses.

    There is about a 1Bn overspend, so thats about 3 years of nurses extra pay (at the 300M a year forecast)! What then, do we remove the pay increase in 2022? Or just cancel the hospital outright and give the nurses a bump till 2025 and then "Its back down ya go!"

    Money spent on a capital works project cant be compared to a short window of pay increases. Just because they are both sums of money and from the same departments budget does not give them equivalence.


  • #2681
    Mitch Connor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 46,309 ✭✭✭✭Mitch Connor


    facehugger99 wrote: »

    This thread has thoroughly demolished any arguments regarding poor pay - the basic pay and available allowances are ridiculously generous.

    So why is it so difficult for the hospitals to recruit full time staff? Why is the ward my wife works on consistently understaffed with respect to nurses/patient numbers?

    If the money is so great for such an easy job, why is it so hard to retain the staff that are trained (rather than them going to the UK or Aus) or get people in from foreign countries?


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  • #2682
    hawkelady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,357 ✭✭✭hawkelady


    Graces7 wrote: »
    [/B]

    From the RTE update today

    "It is the third day on the picket line with no sign of a breakthrough in the escalating dispute.

    Once again, all outpatient, inpatient and day surgery appointments are cancelled, as are routine community nursing services and health centre nurse clinics.

    As on Tuesday, the strike will hit respite and rehabilitation units for the elderly or those with intellectual disability.

    Three further consecutive strike days are scheduled for next week.

    Mental health services are also in the crossfire - after the Psychiatric Nurses Association escalated its overtime ban to run through the night".

    And such cheerful faces

    https://www.rte.ie/news/2019/0207/1028020-nurses_strike_day_3/

    The strike is causing suffering and that is its aim.

    Off out for a walk ....

    Leo and paschal better start talking to the nurses before Tuesday then .


  • #2683
    gmisk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,320 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    Wheeliebin30 wrote: »
    2 billion?

    Have you a link for your absolute nonsense lies?
    The latest figure I saw was 1.7 billion (and it is expected to exceed this)....whos to say where it will end.
    Ministers were also told in the memo that there could be further increases of up to another €145 million in the future.
    It started at 983 million then went to 1.433 billion...

    the running cost per year were also underestimated (now 366 million - which is 40 million more than expected)


  • #2684
    BarryD2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,732 ✭✭✭BarryD2


    Mitch Connor wrote: »
    So why is it so difficult for the hospitals to recruit full time staff? Why is the ward my wife works on consistently understaffed with respect to nurses/patient numbers?

    If the money is so great for such an easy job, why is it so hard to retain the staff that are trained (rather than them going to the UK or Aus) or get people in from foreign countries?

    As regards the former, maybe employing more nurse/ care assistants at lower wages will free up the degree qualified nurses and take some pressure off them.

    As regards the latter, I think the public are tired of this argument. If people want to go off to the UK or Aus or Dubai or wherever, they're doing that for a variety of reasons partic when young. It's not a bargaining chip - pay us €20K/ €30K more or we're all leaving etc. That's too simplistic.

    It'll be interesting to see what/if anything happens over the weekend. I'd bet the INMO leadership hadn't envisaged the strike going this far. It's easy to say, we'll be out this, this and this day. But if this carries on to next week, you'd wonder what their exit strategy is. The troops have been led to the top of the hill and it's lonely up there after a while. Take three days off next week and the sh*t will really hit the fan. And some of that crap will fall squarely on the unions.


  • #2685
    hawkelady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,357 ✭✭✭hawkelady


    BarryD2 wrote: »
    As regards the former, maybe employing more nurse/ care assistants at lower wages will free up the degree qualified nurses and take some pressure off them.

    As regards the latter, I think the public are tired of this argument. If people want to go off to the UK or Aus or Dubai or wherever, they're doing that for a variety of reasons partic when young. It's not a bargaining chip - pay us €20K/ €30K more or we're all leaving etc. That's too simplistic.

    It'll be interesting to see what/if anything happens over the weekend. I'd bet the INMO leadership hadn't envisaged the strike going this far. It's easy to say, we'll be out this, this and this day. But if this carries on to next week, you'd wonder what their exit strategy is. The troops have been led to the top of the hill and it's lonely up there after a while. Take three days off next week and the sh*t will really hit the fan. And some of that crap will fall squarely on the unions.

    You’re wrong on the former ... hca aren’t qualified to do half the tasks as nurses and if something went wrong do you think a hca would be prepared to be sued ?

    The latter has merit ..... I agree with you on next week .. if no talks take place this weekend it will be pure chaos next tues-thurs ... but I have the sense the inmo will stand firm on this.


  • #2686
    pjohnson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,148 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    hawkelady wrote: »
    Leo and paschal better start talking to the nurses before Tuesday then .

    What is there to talk about?


  • #2687
    Martina1991
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,545 ✭✭✭Martina1991


    Mitch Connor wrote:
    So why is it so difficult for the hospitals to recruit full time staff? Why is the ward my wife works on consistently understaffed with respect to nurses/patient numbers?
    Working abroad in a beautiful country is very enticing to young graduates. When you see people living a great life on social media in Australia, Dubai, Canada etc it looks fantastic. Nursing is a qualification that can be transferred to many countries, its a useful degree and easy to travel with.

    An irish women who is a qualified nurse has a huge following on social media and actively sells the dream that nurses live a great life in Australia earning loads on money working for agencies.

    This has been found to be a bit of a scam as loads of nurses have found out the hard way when there are too many nurses and not enough shifts to go around.

    I think young nurses are right to work abroad when theyre young and free, but it is resulting in staff shortages here.


  • #2688
    tretorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭tretorn


    The nurses are starting on a salary of 28 thousand euros and they are saying this is poor.

    I actually think this is quite a good salary for someone straight out of college. Most Accountancy and Law Graduates for example would start on the same money and they will work ten and eleven hours a day for this money and with no prospect of overtime.

    Nurses can do three day weeks and do caring work paying them fifteen euros an hour on their day off.

    We arent getting the full picture here. How many nurses are doing three twelve hour days and then doing agency work on the other four days in the week.


  • #2689
    Seanachai
    Registered Users Posts: 2,544 ✭✭✭Seanachai


    Being honest about it does anybody here in the private sector feel that if they had the union clout that the nurses have, they would be striking too. Why is nobody asking the question if the nurses pay is decent, then why is it so hard to get by on in this country? We can't all work in high paid IT jobs or become self made millionaires.


  • #2690
    hawkelady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,357 ✭✭✭hawkelady


    pjohnson wrote: »
    What is there to talk about?

    Pay apparently??


  • #2691
    1641
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,274 ✭✭✭1641


    Mitch Connor wrote: »

    If the money is so great for such an easy job,


    In fairness, I don't think many people are either saying or thinking that it is an easy job.
    Some of the questions are

    -whether the current pay demand is justifiable, in light of the pay agreement the nurses have recently signed up to
    -whether the strike action is justifiable (that we are only doing it in the interests of patients)
    - whether the pay parity claim with "paramedics" is reasonable and jusified

    -whether pay increases like this are affordable and what the knock on effects might be.



    Different people have contrasting views on this. That is not denigrating nurses.


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  • #2692
    Patrick2010
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,392 ✭✭✭Patrick2010


    hawkelady wrote: »
    Pay apparently??


    Yep thats true, all the other talk about conditions, training etc is a smokescreen, bottom line is give us a 12% pay rise or we'll make the public suffer.


  • #2693
    mikhail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,862 ✭✭✭mikhail


    1641 wrote: »
    Different people have contrasting views on this. That is not denigrating nurses.
    Even as someone broadly opposed to their strike action, I respect nursing as a profession. If they like to moan about their working conditions, that's more or less everyone. It's the nursing union I find a strike-happy bunch of lie-peddling narcissists.


  • #2694
    Old diesel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,822 ✭✭✭Old diesel


    Seanachai wrote: »
    Being honest about it does anybody here in the private sector feel that if they had the union clout that the nurses have, they would be striking too. Why is nobody asking the question if the nurses pay is decent, then why is it so hard to get by on in this country. We can't all work in high paid IT jobs or become self made millionaires.

    If Nurse pay and conditions were as some in this thread think it is - there should be queues of Nurses for every HSE position.

    We live in a world where the way to address the fact you feel screwed by getting less then you did 10 years ago is to hope some other person also gets screwed.

    Where unpaid hours are seen as okay.


  • #2695
    Lillyfae
    Registered Users Posts: 1,850 ✭✭✭Lillyfae


    Seanachai wrote: »
    Being honest about it does anybody here in the private sector feel that if they had the union clout that the nurses have, they would be striking too. Why is nobody asking the question if the nurses pay is decent, then why is it so hard to get by on in this country. We can't all work in high paid IT jobs or become self made millionaires.

    We don't know that it is- some nurses get by on it and some don't. The fact of the matter is, that's life, some people can become millionaires and some can't.

    As an aside my own father is a retired nurse (retired at 55 after 35 years of service) and for the life of me I cannot fathom where my parents get their money from. He even went back to night duty for his last 2 years because that's what counts for the pension. The 30 - 35k remark is total rubbish, unless the guy is doing way less than full time work


  • #2696
    TheRiverman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,231 ✭✭✭TheRiverman


    Just read that Leo Varadkar,who is forty has the metabolic age of a fifty three year old.He will soon need a nurse.


  • #2697
    Rossi IRL
    Registered Users Posts: 8,369 ✭✭✭Rossi IRL


    Could they get rid of all allowances and give them a higher starting pay? and even have less increments to up the starting pay.

    Would current nurses be happy if there was no overtime available to them if the nurses abroad return.

    Could get into dodgy territory if nurses get a pay rise as it would lead to other unions going on strike looking for more pay aswell.


  • #2698
    Lillyfae
    Registered Users Posts: 1,850 ✭✭✭Lillyfae


    Rossi IRL wrote: »
    Would current nurses be happy if there was no overtime available to them if the nurses abroad return.

    The thing I think about is if they are choosing to do all the overtime and/ or do agency or HCA work as a second job then how could anyone but the individual be blamed for their poor condition due to overwork or stress? Work yourself into the ground if you want but you can't call burnout when you collapse.


  • #2699
    markodaly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,995 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Mitch Connor wrote: »
    So why is it so difficult for the hospitals to recruit full time staff? Why is the ward my wife works on consistently understaffed with respect to nurses/patient numbers?

    If the money is so great for such an easy job, why is it so hard to retain the staff that are trained (rather than them going to the UK or Aus) or get people in from foreign countries?

    This is a wider issue I think. It's difficult to hire qualified staff in many different fields. From IT to Health Care.

    Now, if a company can't hire a bunch of good software developers then it may lead to delays of a project.
    But if a hospital or health care provider cant hire that nurse or specialist then it impacts on patient care.

    Fixating on core pay is the wrong way, in my opinion, to fix this. The nursing Unions could look for reform in how the HSE operates, for example, to make working conditions better.

    More could also be done to incentivize people into these professions. One could also hire from abroad. The HSE should be recruiting from places like Poland directly. This helps everyone in the long term.

    Giving nurses an extra 12% pay does nothing to fix or reform the HSE and the working conditions. It does not open up one extra ward or bed either.


  • #2700
    markodaly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,995 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    A graduate starting out on 28k a year is pretty decent. Lots of allowances and tiers ready to bring that pay up. Nursing is a hard job, no question and should be paid well, but I think it is already paid quite well. What is more, you have massive job security. If you are a qualified nurse you will never be out of work.

    Spare a thought for the Early Childcare Teacher who may have 4 years of University behind them, yet get paid the guts of €10 an hour.


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  • #2701
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,531 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    Mitch Connor wrote: »
    So why is it so difficult for the hospitals to recruit full time staff? Why is the ward my wife works on consistently understaffed with respect to nurses/patient numbers?

    If the money is so great for such an easy job, why is it so hard to retain the staff that are trained (rather than them going to the UK or Aus) or get people in from foreign countries?

    Also don't forget that many hospital wards are closed right across the country because there aren't enough nurses to staff them. The HSE themselves acknowledge that there is a staffing problem.

    There are people arguing that money should be invested in new hospital beds instead of sorting out working conditions for nurses. There ain't much point spending money on new wards if they cannot be opened due to staffing issues.


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