College Green Plaza -- public consultation open

celtcia · 30-06-2019 7:54am

prinzeugen wrote: »

The problem with computer modelling is that it does not work. I have said this here many times.

A computer, AI or whatever, cannot predict human behaviour. Its why we binned it! Bollox!

Boeing did some outsourced modelling for the max...

celtcia · 17-07-2019 12:40pm

Paywell paywall...
Good now support the right design!

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/high-court/man-cannot-challenge-rejection-of-college-green-plaza-1.3958661

Spanish Eyes · 18-07-2019 12:36pm

Route diversions for the closing of College Green for the Plaza trial for the next three Sundays....

https://www.dublinbus.ie/News-Centre/General-News/Diversions-due-to-College-Green-Closures/

wakka12 · 18-07-2019 1:34pm

Cant wait to see this area hitting closer to its full potential these next few sundays! Even on suffolk street you can see street life blossoming beautifully with it being closed off to traffic. Dublin is a city truly destroyed by cars

Everything east of christchurch, west of trinity, north of stephens green and south of parnell square should be completely private car and taxi free. Anything less is absolutely prioritising the comfort of a relatively small number of motorists over the citizens of the city

Last Stop · 18-07-2019 9:32pm

I’m assuming the trials will just close off traffic completely and not use the opportunity to try different options.

One option that I think would work extremely well is to put all traffic to the north side of the green. During the trial, NB traffic could use bike lane and SB use the current NB lane. This would keep traffic moving through the area while also providing a plaza.

I know people are keen in the idea of a full plaza but in practice this will have a significant effect on transport in Dublin. Keeping some traffic flowing in the area would help.

Running the trials on a Sunday makes little sense as it does not test the full impact of the plans. The current CG can be quite nice on a Sunday given the reduced number of buses

trellheim · 19-07-2019 1:18pm

The diversions list via Georges St southbound ... is that now a legal turn right from Dame St (its not even signalled if I recall ) ?

MJohnston · 19-07-2019 2:26pm

trellheim wrote: »

The diversions list via Georges St southbound ... is that now a legal turn right from Dame St (its not even signalled if I recall ) ?

There will be no buses coming *from* College Green, because none will be using stops on Dame Street beyond George's Street.

There may be the odd taxi that has gone up Dame Street and then turns around using Trinity Street/Church Lane, but I would imagine it would be minimal.

Therefore it's pretty safe to assume that the buses turning right from Dame Street to George's Street will largely have a free run, and won't need any filter lights.

cgcsb · 19-07-2019 2:29pm

One of the largest advantages of having the green pedestrianized is this could then be used as a reason to narrow the road, and widen the paths on Dame Street which are dangerously congested almost 24/7. Cars and buses going through the Dame/George's st junction will be few so it seems like a no brainer gain for peds.

trellheim · 19-07-2019 3:21pm

MJohnston wrote: »

There will be no buses coming *from* College Green, because none will be using stops on Dame Street beyond George's Street.

There may be the odd taxi that has gone up Dame Street and then turns around using Trinity Street/Church Lane, but I would imagine it would be minimal.

Therefore it's pretty safe to assume that the buses turning right from Dame Street to George's Street will largely have a free run, and won't need any filter lights.

Thats not what I asked.

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3442139,-6.2652862,3a,75y,86.23h,95.36t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1saCkvy2ikfgMPnEyBb1M7Rg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

No right turn .

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3442107,-6.2646314,3a,75y,106.9h,98.72t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sd-6sooLXVXyNxWgzW_k3Gw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

filter ahead only.

What I asked was, is it a legal turn. It does not look like it is.

Nothing on DCC traffic news about the change to road signage or a temporary bus-only right turn.

Last Stop · 19-07-2019 4:07pm

trellheim wrote: »

Thats not what I asked.

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3442139,-6.2652862,3a,75y,86.23h,95.36t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1saCkvy2ikfgMPnEyBb1M7Rg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

No right turn .

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3442107,-6.2646314,3a,75y,106.9h,98.72t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sd-6sooLXVXyNxWgzW_k3Gw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

filter ahead only.

What I asked was, is it a legal turn. It does not look like it is.

Nothing on DCC traffic news about the change to road signage or a temporary bus-only right turn.

Given the temporary nature of the closure I’d imagine there will be a Guard at that junction ensuring everything goes to plan.

AndrewJRenko · 19-07-2019 4:27pm

prinzeugen wrote: »

The problem with computer modelling is that it does not work. I have said this here many times.

A computer, AI or whatever, cannot predict human behaviour. Its why we binned it! Bollox!

Who's the 'we' that binned computer modelling? There's an entire industry out there of human behaviour modelling in building design, evacuation design and more.

Last Stop · 19-07-2019 7:39pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Who's the 'we' that binned computer modelling? There's an entire industry out there of human behaviour modelling in building design, evacuation design and more.

While I agree with what you’re saying and computer modelling does tend to be efficient at predicting transport movements he does have a point about human behaviour. This to me is the biggest barrier to driverless cars and will continue to be for years to come.
I heard a fact that only 60% of construction accidents can be prevented and that the other 40% are due to human error which cannot be mitigated

MJohnston · 20-07-2019 3:40pm

trellheim wrote: »

Thats not what I asked.

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3442139,-6.2652862,3a,75y,86.23h,95.36t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1saCkvy2ikfgMPnEyBb1M7Rg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

No right turn .

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3442107,-6.2646314,3a,75y,106.9h,98.72t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sd-6sooLXVXyNxWgzW_k3Gw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

filter ahead only.

What I asked was, is it a legal turn. It does not look like it is.

Nothing on DCC traffic news about the change to road signage or a temporary bus-only right turn.

I'm sure they can adjust this with a very quick change - but you also asked about there being no filter light for right turns, and I was just pointing out how easy it will be to handle this turn without one.

trellheim · 20-07-2019 7:33pm

Last Stop wrote: »

Given the temporary nature of the closure I’d imagine there will be a Guard at that junction ensuring everything goes to plan.

Very probably, as pedestrians will not be used to traffic coming from that direction.

Last Stop · 21-07-2019 3:09pm

Took a stroll around and while it was nice to see how the area would work, unfortunately my feedback is mainly negative.

My main points would be:
1. The events put in by DCC were very poor and reminded me of a 90s family day in a rural town (not good). There was no food places or even an ice cream van, no street performers etc.
2. The area was dead. Extremely odd given the two matches in Croke Park and being peak tourist season. It felt like everyone was avoiding the area
3. Some live music would have been a plus. Incidentally there was an orchestra playing the wood quay amphitheater.
4. Traffic on the quays especially the northern one was very bad and filled with buses. Would like to see the effect on journey times
5. There were barriers everywhere! For some reason over half on Dame St. was fully enclosed which made it quite narrow on the other side especially given the bike parking.
6. There seemed to be a lot of confused tourists and I noticed several very stressed DB staff.
7. Didn’t notice many DCC staff around either engaging or even just observing.

In summary I would say today confirmed 2 things:
1. ABP were correct to refuse planning
2. DCC couldn’t organise a piss up in a brewery

benjamin d · 21-07-2019 3:20pm

I had planned on going for a nosey on College Green today but saw the pictures on twitter of the absolutely shambolic mess DCC made of the whole thing and stayed home. I made a point of going to South William Street yesterday and it was phenomenal, it felt like a lovely natural area for people to stroll around in and relax.

What possible logic was there for those barriers? Surely a single barrier layer blocking each traffic lane at the edges is all that was required? I can only surmise that this was designed to elicit negative feedback about pedestrianising the area.

It didn't even need to be an "event". Just open up the bloody space and let people enjoy it on its merits.

Stephen15 · 21-07-2019 5:07pm

Went into town to today to give it a try and was quite impressed. However the tents were a bit stupid and so were the barriers that were erected this was after they removed the barriers which made the whole thing much better. There was definitely no need for the whole event thing that was going on with security looked stupid and pointless.

Even if it wasn't to be a full time plaza no reason why it couldn't be closed off to traffic every weekend or a t least every Sunday.

Tenzor07 · 21-07-2019 5:07pm

Spun through there earlier on the bike, plenty of barriers, Gardai dotted about the place, loads of metal barriers, a few stalls catering for families and stuff..

Came off the quays which was moving fine, went up lwr. Bridge street, very little motorised traffic really, or anyone on bicycles either, exited by Westmoreland St, all the way down the quays to the point/east wall road... only traffic I came across was exiting the port tunnel...

Overall, great idea, needs a lot more planning, works on widening the area for pedestrians would be great and so the bars/cafes could put more tables and chairs outside, and really develop the area for tourism and locals. Also putting cycle lanes in place would help two wheeled transport...

is_that_so · 21-07-2019 5:11pm

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Spun through there earlier on the bike, plenty of barriers, Gardai dotted about the place, loads of metal barriers, a few stalls catering for families and stuff..

Came off the quays which was moving fine, went up lwr. Bridge street, very little motorised traffic really, or anyone on bicycles either, exited by Westmoreland St, all the way down the quays to the point/east wall road... only traffic I came across was exiting the port tunnel...

Overall, great idea, needs a lot more planning, works on widening the area for pedestrians would be great and so the bars/cafes could put more tables and chairs outside, and really develop the area for tourism and locals. Also putting cycle lanes in place would help two wheeled transport...

Middle of the summer just gives you an idea what it looks like. Not that useful in terms of information. Key thing is what happens to buses and how that affects the quays. Not sure what tourism there is to be had on Dame Street and I wouldn't be celebrating the already over-priced hostelries spreading out further.

is_that_so · 21-07-2019 5:16pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

Went into town to today to give it a try and was quite impressed. However the tents were a bit stupid and so were the barriers that were erected this was after they removed the barriers which made the whole thing much better. There was definitely no need for the whole event thing that was going on with security looked stupid and pointless.

Even if it wasn't to be a full time plaza no reason why it couldn't be closed off to traffic every weekend or a t least every Sunday.

That I could see as a runner as you could organise regular events around it. The current plan is really aiming to shunt traffic out of that part of the city regardless of where it goes. That's what shot down the planning permission in the first place.

Spanish Eyes · 21-07-2019 5:21pm

Next Sunday will be much better. Hopefully.

When we email DCC to get their act together. They either want it or they don’t.

Spanish Eyes · 21-07-2019 5:23pm

Oh and agree with weekend closures for all traffic to the Plaza. Gets people used to it.

Can only be a positive really now.

Tenzor07 · 21-07-2019 5:35pm

is_that_so wrote: »

Middle of the summer just gives you an idea what it looks like. Not that useful in terms of information. Key thing is what happens to buses and how that affects the quays. Not sure what tourism there is to be had on Dame Street and I wouldn't be celebrating the already over-priced hostelries spreading out further.

I've sat on a bus going through that area with about 10 other busses in a line queuing ahead of the one I was on, and as many behind, the area just can't sustain that amount of bus traffic...

As for "Not sure what tourism there is to be had on Dame Street" :eek: it's basically the centre of tourism in that part of the city, crossing from Temple bar, to Trinity, all the pubs in the area, the wax museum, retail stores...!!

cgcsb · 21-07-2019 5:36pm

DCC ballsed it completely up. The barriers there ruined what could have been a sense of openness and easy pedestrian movement. Instead it was like trying to get into electric picnic or something but all that was inside was a face paint tent and a caricature guy. I'm really curious what the point of the barriers and the security was. The events were really sad, no food or music or activities.

cgcsb · 21-07-2019 5:38pm

On a more positive note there is a new permanent right turn filter light at the dame/George st junction

Spanish Eyes · 21-07-2019 5:45pm

cgcsb wrote: »

On a more positive note there is a new permanent right turn filter light at the dame/George st junction

Bus only?

cgcsb · 21-07-2019 5:48pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Bus only?

It was only an arrow

is_that_so · 21-07-2019 5:55pm

Tenzor07 wrote: »

I've sat on a bus going through that area with about 10 other busses in a line queuing ahead of the one I was on, and as many behind, the area just can't sustain that amount of bus traffic...

The original idea was to push that problem elsewhere. In reality DCC don't really care as long it goes away.

As for "Not sure what tourism there is to be had on Dame Street" :eek: it's basically the centre of tourism in that part of the city, crossing from Temple bar, to Trinity, all the pubs in the area, the wax museum, retail stores...!!

Wax museum is on Westmoreland St. Most of that can be done from just outside Trinity anyway. I'd sooner give my money to a mugger than any of the pubs around there. I think it's an expensive vanity project with no obvious purpose apart from get the traffic off the street. As a weekend event spot, at certain times of year, it could work. Otherwise it would be a vast useless extent of concrete space, frequented by people we love to complain about.

is_that_so · 21-07-2019 6:01pm

cgcsb wrote: »

DCC ballsed it completely up. The barriers there ruined what could have been a sense of openness and easy pedestrian movement. Instead it was like trying to get into electric picnic or something but all that was inside was a face paint tent and a caricature guy. I'm really curious what the point of the barriers and the security was. The events were really sad, no food or music or activities.

And unfortunately indicative of what they are likely to do if they make it permanent.

BabysCoffee · 21-07-2019 6:02pm

Went along today to see the open area / car free College Green

While it was great that there was no traffic on the street everything else was really grim. Have a look on twitter under #CollegeGreen or #Streetsareforpeople to see the prison like barriers and security and large signs with rules

Dublin City Council put massive barriers out that blocked off streets that were closed to traffic but also made them unusable by pedestrians - it also created pinch points on pavements and blocked off Dame Street to Temple Bar.

It was completely soulless and it felt like when you are entering or exiting a concert arena and are placed in pens and corralled in to the venue.

There were a few token tents with activities for kids but they didn't look up to much.

All in all I think Dublin City Council missed an opportunity and stole the use of these streets from citizens today. Car free streets are in cities worldwide and are executed with ease - have to agree with the poster above who said that DCC could't organize the proverbial in a brewery.

I would think that the concept of streets closed to cars should allow for restaurants to extend seating out on to the street for a convivial social atmosphere (that will also bring in revenue for the businesses) - see Mall on Duval for an example http://mallonduval.com/

I'd urge anyone who went along to give feedback to Dublin City Council as big changes are needed before next Sunday

MovieFest · 21-07-2019 6:34pm

The traffic around the rest of town was pretty bad today, was this because of the new road closures or was it just a particularly busy Sunday?

donvito99 · 21-07-2019 6:46pm

MovieFest wrote: »

The traffic around the rest of town was pretty bad today, was this because of the new road closures or was it just a particularly busy Sunday?

It's because of cars.

Tenzor07 · 21-07-2019 7:19pm

donvito99 wrote: »

It's because of cars.

Most of the cars were from Donegal and other places due to the GAA games on...

prinzeugen · 21-07-2019 7:38pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Who's the 'we' that binned computer modelling? There's an entire industry out there of human behaviour modelling in building design, evacuation design and more.

A large venue in Dublin. It became clear after a few large events that the plans (particularly on egress) that were based on computer models were not working.

So they went in the bin and some people sat down and came up with a new plan to reflect what the humans were doing, not on what they should be doing. Still using it today.

Peregrine · 21-07-2019 7:39pm

Such a contrast between this and South William Street yesterday. I was there til 2:30 and it was bleak. I heard it got a little better later on before it ended at 4.

The steel barriers were just depressing. I realise that it was designed as an event and DCC had to do crowd management with the Gardaí for it (and all the health and safety that came with it) but that only explains the barriers near the tents. The steel barriers in the middle of the road on Dame Street were a ****ing joke. I know it's not on the pedestrianisation proposal but why close off the road and then funnel pedestrians into the sides of the road? The barriers meant you couldn't even cross the road like you could when it was full of cars! I'm glad they got rid of half of the barriers early in the afternoon.

Let's hope they take some of the feedback onboard for next week.

BabysCoffee · 21-07-2019 8:01pm

Peregrine wrote: »

I know it's not on the pedestrianisation proposal but why close off the road and then funnel pedestrians into the sides of the road? The barriers meant you couldn't even cross the road like you could when it was full of cars!

.

This felt really dangerous to me and I was really uneasy at this point on the street. I was glad to leave the area.

Muahahaha · 21-07-2019 8:20pm

What a cock up

https://twitter.com/DublinCommuters/status/1152934001474179073

https://twitter.com/dublin7commuter/status/1152920005669019648

stop · 21-07-2019 8:25pm

Unfortunately in the times we live it has become standard to place barriers across any street expected to be packed with pedestrians.

In the past, Dublin Fire Brigade would park an appliance across the road. I'm sure DCC can come up with a more elegant temporary solution for these events.

BabysCoffee · 21-07-2019 8:27pm

Wonder what department in the council is responsible for this? Roads/Traffice/Events?

Anyone have a better email than this one? customerservices@dublincity.ie

is_that_so · 21-07-2019 8:30pm

BabysCoffee wrote: »

Wonder what department in the council is responsible for this? Roads/Traffice/Events?

Anyone have a better email than this one? customerservices@dublincity.ie

Maybe the people mentioned in this?

https://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2019/0721/1064382-plans-for-new-plaza-on-college-green/

Jamie2k9 · 21-07-2019 8:35pm

stop wrote: »

Unfortunately in the times we live it has become standard to place barriers across any street expected to be packed with pedestrians.

In the past, Dublin Fire Brigade would park an appliance across the road. I'm sure DCC can come up with a more elegant temporary solution for these events.

Security is not a reason for the mess up today. All they needed was one or two concrete barriers at end of George St and any side street solve all security issues and not barriers on the side of a footpath. Pinning people in with barriers like those used would cause a bigger problem if there was an event with a car/van etc.

Today was totally pointless for pedestrians.

cgcsb · 21-07-2019 8:37pm

is_that_so wrote: »

And unfortunately indicative of what they are likely to do if they make it permanent.

I doubt that they're going to put up permanent pedestrian barriers

Last Stop · 21-07-2019 9:08pm

donvito99 wrote: »

It's because of cars.

Ha good one.

To actually answer the question asked, I would say that this definitely had an impact on traffic in the surrounding areas. Traffic on the north quays seemed particularly bad at lunchtime while the pedestrian area was extremely quiet.

Another interesting aspect of today was how quiet Westmoreland and D’olier St were, in the event that college green pedestrianisation does go ahead (a long way away based on today’s shambles) there is potential for much wider footpaths on both these streets with a reduction in the number of lanes. That would mean you could have a nice wide pedestrian route from St Stephens Green all the way to the top of O’Connell subject to church lane being closed too

Shedite27 · 21-07-2019 9:45pm

Fairly awful showing to be fair. Went in for a walk and it seemed like it was setup to be as unappealing as possible.

As others said, SWS yesterday was better, A DCC organised event today in St.Annes was miles better. I see Dublin Town are orgnising a street party on Henry Street next Saturday.

I left kinda wondering what the point of the trial was. If its to show what the plaza could become, well it's not really going to show that is it? The plaza isn't going to be nice just by closing the roads, it's not until a bit of work goes into it that it'll become sightly or useful. And if the purpose is to show the traffic impact, well a Sunday is never gonna show that.

Last Stop · 21-07-2019 9:55pm

Shedite27 wrote: »

Fairly awful showing to be fair. Went in for a walk and it seemed like it was setup to be as unappealing as possible.

As others said, SWS yesterday was better, A DCC organised event today in St.Annes was miles better. I see Dublin Town are orgnising a street party on Henry Street next Saturday.

I left kinda wondering what the point of the trial was. If its to show what the plaza could become, well it's not really going to show that is it? The plaza isn't going to be nice just by closing the roads, it's not until a bit of work goes into it that it'll become sightly or useful. And if the purpose is to show the traffic impact, well a Sunday is never gonna show that.

Funny I’ve literally just said the same thing over on the other infrastructure thread. My understanding was the trial was to “gauge public opinion of the the scheme” and based on today that will be pretty negative I would say.

If that was the aim, I didn’t see a single person out doing surveys etc. which would have got some good feedback even for next week. I did see film crews which were a little OTT and will no doubt be used as propaganda going forward. Sure they could have got some college students to survey people as they walked by to see what they thought etc? The fact they have effectively 3 trials means they can learn something each week although I fear that the one on the August bank holiday is going to be even worse than today.

prinzeugen · 21-07-2019 11:09pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Security is not a reason for the mess up today. All they needed was one or two concrete barriers at end of George St and any side street solve all security issues and not barriers on the side of a footpath. Pinning people in with barriers like those used would cause a bigger problem if there was an event with a car/van etc.

Today was totally pointless for pedestrians.

I have a funny feeling the barriers were there for insurance/liability reasons. Its a road and is maintained with vehicles in mind not pedestrians.

If someone tripped on a pothole or stepping from the pavement to/from the road away from a designated crossing point, DDC would be screwed.

Stephen15 · 21-07-2019 11:58pm

Shedite27 wrote: »

I left kinda wondering what the point of the trial was. If its to show what the plaza could become, well it's not really going to show that is it? The plaza isn't going to be nice just by closing the roads, it's not until a bit of work goes into it that it'll become sightly or useful. And if the purpose is to show the traffic impact, well a Sunday is never gonna show that.

I sort of disagree with your point when Grafton Street was first pedestrianised it wasn't paved at first. After the barriers were taken down it properly displayed what the true potential of the plaza even if it isn't as aesthically pleasing as what it will end becoming the concept is still there.

Stephen15 · 22-07-2019 12:08am

When I saw the tents and the security I thought here come the overpriced bratwursts and the other crap usually assoicated with these types of events. At least it wasn't that bad.

suicide_circus · 22-07-2019 7:06am

I would imagine the plethora of barriers can be attributed to our old friend Compo Culture. DCC gets the arse sued out of it on a daily basis. If barriers offer them some protection, they'll lash out the barriers. this is why we cant have nice things.

is_that_so · 22-07-2019 2:47pm

cgcsb wrote: »

I doubt that they're going to put up permanent pedestrian barriers

I mean the closure of College Green but DCC could really do anything!

College Green Plaza -- public consultation open

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