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Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail

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    #992
    Sligo eye
    Closed Accounts Posts: 168 ✭✭Sligo eye


    Last Stop wrote: »
    The M17/18 underwent a full cost benefit analysis before getting the green light. Ironically because it’s a PPP the government are doing exactly what you say and paying for this over a 30 year period.
    Charging more if less people use is senseless economics 101.

    A photo a given time does not offer a true reflection of the road as a whole.

    Might I also add that a significant cost of the scheme as the provision of a rail bridge over the WRC at Tuam. The WRC also increased the cost of N63 upgrade.

    I’m not against the WRC, but I don’t think it’s justifiable at present. North of Tuam and in particular north of Claremorris was never designed as a main rail line and instead to serve local traffic. Upgrading it to current standards would be very expensive.

    Likewise the whole NTA obsession with conducting a rail census every year. Running the census on a midweek in mid winter was the classic Beeching tactic, now wholly discredited.


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    #993
    Last Stop
    Registered Users Posts: 920 ✭✭✭Last Stop


    Sligo eye wrote: »
    Likewise the whole NTA obsession with conducting a rail census every year. Running the census on a midweek in mid winter was the classic Beeching tactic, now wholly discredited.

    From a transport point of view, mid week in November is the best time to do a survey as it is the best representation of the year. Other parts of the year have reduced demand due to school holidays etc and mid week is best as Monday/Friday have different effects


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    #994
    what_traffic
    Registered Users Posts: 4,868 ✭✭✭what_traffic


    https://connachttribune.ie/cannon-rails-against-reopening-the-line-190/
    "
    A Government Minster has claimed that there are less than 40 people using the Athenry to Ennis rail connection on a daily basis.

    .
    ..
    ..."


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    #995
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,651 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Sligo eye wrote: »
    Likewise the whole NTA obsession with conducting a rail census every year. Running the census on a midweek in mid winter was the classic Beeching tactic, now wholly discredited.

    If you want to get low figures you go for early August. Mid November has all education facilities back, Dail and Courts in session, very few people on holiday etc etc. Midweek avoids people taking long weekends which is a distortion factor

    Are you advocating they do it on a bank holiday Friday or what? Realistically the only busier time


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    #996
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    L1011 wrote: »
    If you want to get low figures you go for early August. Mid November has all education facilities back, Dail and Courts in session, very few people on holiday etc etc. Midweek avoids people taking long weekends which is a distortion factor

    Are you advocating they do it on a bank holiday Friday or what? Realistically the only busier time

    Why not base figures on the ticket sales?

    (if any)


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    #997
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,878 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    "Cannon" - thought at first the clergy were intervening again!

    Life ain't always empty.



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    #998
    Utter Consternation
    Registered Users Posts: 926 ✭✭✭Utter Consternation


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    "Cannon" - thought at first the clergy were intervening again!

    Reopening Athenry-Claremorris will take a miracle alright.


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    #999
    Lord Glentoran
    Closed Accounts Posts: 876 ✭✭✭Lord Glentoran


    what_traffic wrote: »
    https://connachttribune.ie/cannon-rails-against-reopening-the-line-190/
    "
    A Government Minster has claimed that there are less than 40 people using the Athenry to Ennis rail connection on a daily basis.

    .
    ..
    ..."

    Yeah. Ciaran Cannon.


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    #1000
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,232 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Lord Glentoran wrote: »
    Yeah. Ciaran Cannon.

    Is he wrong though?


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    #1001
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,984 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    CatInABox wrote: »
    Is he wrong though?


    from what i understand yes.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #1002
    Topgear on Dave
    Registered Users Posts: 4,521 ✭✭✭Topgear on Dave


    end of the road wrote: »
    from what i understand yes.

    How far out are his figures?


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    #1003
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,651 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    Why not base figures on the ticket sales?

    (if any)

    Not accurate enough. Nowhere close.

    So many stations have no or often open gatelines; or have exits that don't require passing a gateline. Plenty of legit passengers don't actually get counted that way as well as fare evaders both intentional and not (expecting to buy on board and nobody asks)

    Counting sold tickets would be a overcount in many cases - not everyone with a season pass travels every day


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    #1004
    ohographite
    Registered Users Posts: 312 ✭✭ohographite


    what_traffic wrote: »
    https://connachttribune.ie/cannon-rails-against-reopening-the-line-190/
    "
    A Government Minster has claimed that there are less than 40 people using the Athenry to Ennis rail connection on a daily basis.

    .
    ..
    ..."

    This could be an accurate representation of the amount of people who use the 3 stations between Ennis and Athenry daily(I can't remember how many it was for sure), but according to the figure for all passengers using the line in 2018, the patronage was much higher, and something like 390 journeys daily was what I think I remember the figure to be.


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    #1005
    Isambard
    Registered Users Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭Isambard


    I read that as saying less than 40 people use the line on a daily basis as their everyday transport.


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    #1006
    Lord Glentoran
    Closed Accounts Posts: 876 ✭✭✭Lord Glentoran


    Isambard wrote: »
    I read that as saying less than 40 people use the line on a daily basis as their everyday transport.

    I think the relevant phrase starts with the words “pulled out of his....”


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    #1007
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Lord Glentoran wrote: »
    I think the relevant phrase starts with the words “pulled out of his....”

    The data is freely available, go ahead, show he is wrong.


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    #1008
    Isambard
    Registered Users Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭Isambard


    Lord Glentoran wrote: »
    I think the relevant phrase starts with the words “pulled out of his....”

    yes I think you're right.If it was not, he would have quoted an average usership


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    #1009
    Lord Glentoran
    Closed Accounts Posts: 876 ✭✭✭Lord Glentoran


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    The data is freely available, go ahead, show he is wrong.

    Go up and down the line *on the train* a few times and have a look. You might enjoy it


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    #1010
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,651 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Lord Glentoran wrote: »
    Go up and down the line *on the train* a few times and have a look. You might enjoy it

    So no data then?


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    #1011
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,232 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Isambard wrote: »
    yes I think you're right.If it was not, he would have quoted an average usership

    He did.
    “If we forensically examine the figures, the numbers using the Athenry to Ennis section average out at 39 people per day. That is horrendous. It is not sustainable,” Minister Cannon said.


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    #1012
    Utter Consternation
    Registered Users Posts: 926 ✭✭✭Utter Consternation


    ohographite wrote: »
    This could be an accurate representation of the amount of people who use the 3 stations between Ennis and Athenry daily(I can't remember how many it was for sure), but according to the figure for all passengers using the line in 2018, the patronage was much higher, and something like 390 journeys daily was what I think I remember the figure to be.

    390 journeys daily is low. Factor in that 350 of them are probably on a SW pass and it's even worse. :D


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    #1013
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Utter Consternation wrote: »
    390 journeys daily is low. Factor in that 350 of them are probably on a SW pass and it's even worse. :D

    Whether people travel on a FTP (SW pass) is irrelevant as it should be (and is) deemed a person on a FTP has a paid fare - albeit paid by the Social Protection Dept. FTP passengers have to obtain a ticket before travelling.

    However, providing a costly but poor, slow, and infrequent service that would be better provided by buses on the new M18 is more to the point.


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    #1014
    Isambard
    Registered Users Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭Isambard


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    Whether people travel on a FTP (SW pass) is irrelevant as it should be (and is) deemed a person on a FTP has a paid fare - albeit paid by the Social Protection Dept. FTP passengers have to obtain a ticket before travelling.

    However, providing a costly but poor, slow, and infrequent service that would be better provided by buses on the new M18 is more to the point.

    I agree. Without the subvention of those on SW passes, the line couldn't exist


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    #1015
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,984 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    Whether people travel on a FTP (SW pass) is irrelevant as it should be (and is) deemed a person on a FTP has a paid fare - albeit paid by the Social Protection Dept. FTP passengers have to obtain a ticket before travelling.

    However, providing a costly but poor, slow, and infrequent service that would be better provided by buses on the new M18 is more to the point.

    a service wouldn't be better provided with busses on the m18 for rail users.
    a better service dispite it's flaws is provided by rail and that is the only way a service can be provided for those users.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #1016
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    end of the road wrote: »
    a service wouldn't be better provided with busses on the m18 for rail users.
    a better service dispite it's flaws is provided by rail and that is the only way a service can be provided for those users.

    When the line was closed due to flooding, buses were OK then.

    If you must provide a rail service for rail users, the yes, rail is the only way. However, a faster and more frequent bus service might suit all of them if they are not out on a day out on the railway.


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    #1017
    Utter Consternation
    Registered Users Posts: 926 ✭✭✭Utter Consternation


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    Whether people travel on a FTP (SW pass) is irrelevant as it should be (and is) deemed a person on a FTP has a paid fare - albeit paid by the Social Protection Dept. FTP passengers have to obtain a ticket before travelling.

    However, providing a costly but poor, slow, and infrequent service that would be better provided by buses on the new M18 is more to the point.

    Does IR get paid per journey or is it a lump sum they receive?


  • Options
    #1018
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,984 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    When the line was closed due to flooding, buses were OK then.

    because the rail service was being returned. so not a case of buses being okay, but a case of well i can put up with it short term.
    Sam Russell wrote: »
    If you must provide a rail service for rail users, the yes, rail is the only way. However, a faster and more frequent bus service might suit all of them if they are not out on a day out on the railway.

    if buses suited them they would be using what bus services that exist instead of the railway.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



  • Options
    #1019
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    end of the road wrote: »
    because the rail service was being returned. so not a case of buses being okay, but a case of well i can put up with it short term.

    if buses suited them they would be using what bus services that exist instead of the railway.

    Normally, there would be figures for how many travelled on such a service. There would be surveys as to how to improve the service offered. There are no figures for passenger numbers, despite that they need a ticket to travel. Buses from BE and private services currently compete on this route (or into Galway). It would be interesting to know how many take the train rather than the bus.

    I wonder who does not want the information released?


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    #1020
    Utter Consternation
    Registered Users Posts: 926 ✭✭✭Utter Consternation


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    Normally, there would be figures for how many travelled on such a service. There would be surveys as to how to improve the service offered. There are no figures for passenger numbers, despite that they need a ticket to travel. Buses from BE and private services currently compete on this route (or into Galway). It would be interesting to know how many take the train rather than the bus.

    I wonder who does not want the information released?

    Don't underestimate the lack of capability of Irish Rail or Bus Eireann to count the amount of passengers that actually use their services. :D


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    #1021
    serfboard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,675 ✭✭✭serfboard


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    providing a costly but poor, slow, and infrequent service that would be better provided by buses on the new M18 is more to the point.
    There are two cheaper, good, fast and frequent services on the M18 now, and they have been there since before the final section was complete - Bus Eireann's X51 and Citylink's Galway->Limerick->Cork service. Both take about 1:15 to 1:20 to do the intercity journey.

    The X51 has the advantage that some of the services stop at Shannon Airport, which the train will never do. The Citylink service does Galway->Cork direct at weekends in two and a half hours - and that's even before the M20 is built.


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