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Reasons calf would be abandoned

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  • 20-11-2019 11:11am
    #1
    frillyleaf
    Registered Users Posts: 801 ✭✭✭


    Hi. Are there any reasons that someone would abandon a male dairy calf ? I’ve heard of a few abandoned male dairy calves lately and am trying to understand why this would happen.

    The calves I’ve heard about are not tagged so are not traceable. I understand they can’t be moved or mixed with other cows until TB tested.

    It seems quite unusual and obviously it’s unethical from an animal welfare and disease control point of view.


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    #2
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users Posts: 18,210 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    frillyleaf wrote: »
    Hi. Are there any reasons that someone would abandon a male dairy calf ? I’ve heard of a few abandoned male dairy calves lately and am trying to understand why this would happen.

    The calves I’ve heard about are not tagged so are not traceable. I understand they can’t be moved or mixed with other cows until TB tested.

    It seems quite unusual and obviously it’s unethical from an animal welfare and disease control point of view.

    Dose not happen as they can and will be traced by genetic testing . It called a vegan legend similar to urban legends

    Slava Ukrainii



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    #3
    valtra2
    Registered Users Posts: 726 ✭✭✭valtra2


    There left out to feed the wolf.


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    #4
    Say my name
    Registered Users Posts: 11,142 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    I've heard Prince Charles is coming to co.Wicklow in the next few months.


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    #5
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users Posts: 18,210 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Say my name wrote: »
    I've heard Prince Charles is coming to co.Wicklow in the next few months.

    He bringing prince Andrew with him and going to abandon him at the side of the road there

    Slava Ukrainii



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    #6
    Say my name
    Registered Users Posts: 11,142 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    Bass Reeves wrote: »
    He bringing prince Andrew with him and going to abandon him at the side of the road there

    That'd be no sweat to that fella!!


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    #7
    Gael23
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭Gael23


    Suppose they are waste product to most farmers. Many are shot at birth


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    #8
    Buford T. Justice XIX
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,633 ✭✭✭✭Buford T. Justice XIX


    Bass Reeves wrote: »
    Dose not happen as they can and will be traced by genetic testing . It called a vegan legend similar to urban legends

    Never mind that all cows in milk will have to show a calf on the farm that was tagged and BVD tested.


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    #9
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,364 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Gael23 wrote: »
    Suppose they are waste product to most farmers. Many are shot at birth

    Not true either on the shooting part.

    Any change from the average mortality rate will have you examined further.

    It's very small changes, ie 2 or 3 calves more out of a hundred.


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    #10
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users Posts: 18,210 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Say my name wrote: »
    That'd be no sweat to that fella!!

    There wouldn't be a young um( ewe lamb) save on the Wicklow mountains. I sure he have his wellies with him

    Slava Ukrainii



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    #11
    PoorFarmer
    Registered Users Posts: 533 ✭✭✭PoorFarmer


    Gael23 wrote:
    Suppose they are waste product to most farmers. Many are shot at birth


    And you have some evidence to back this statement up?


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    #12
    K.G.
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 3,062 Mod ✭✭✭✭K.G.


    Personally it sounds like a rural legend.


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    #13
    frillyleaf
    Registered Users Posts: 801 ✭✭✭frillyleaf


    Bass Reeves wrote: »
    Dose not happen as they can and will be traced by genetic testing . It called a vegan legend similar to urban legends

    It has happened, I’m personally aware of it. That is why I’m asking about it as it is very unusual for a anyone to abandon a calf.

    I’ve never heard of this situation, that is why I’m asking. It isn’t tagged so it is not traceable.

    I know plenty of dogs cats etc are abandoned but why would a calf a few weeks old be abandoned? It’s very odd


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    #14
    frillyleaf
    Registered Users Posts: 801 ✭✭✭frillyleaf


    Buford T. Justice VI wrote: »
    Never mind that all cows in milk will have to show a calf on the farm that was tagged and BVD tested.

    Yes it appears the regulations are very strict. Are there situations that a calf wouldn’t be tagged?

    Are the male calves slaughtered young or are they grown for meat? I know they are separated from mother cow but don’t know at what age etc.

    Who does the farmer have to show the calves to? Thanks


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    #15
    frillyleaf
    Registered Users Posts: 801 ✭✭✭frillyleaf


    Danzy wrote: »
    Not true either on the shooting part.

    Any change from the average mortality rate will have you examined further.

    It's very small changes, ie 2 or 3 calves more out of a hundred.

    Hi what does this mean? I’m not from farming background so don’t understand what you mean by examined and changes as mentioned above


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    #16
    Say my name
    Registered Users Posts: 11,142 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    Troll attempt. Minus 5.

    Would ya eff right off!!

    Contact the guards or the ispca if you've concerns. Not start a troll thread on boards.


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    #17
    emaherx
    Registered Users Posts: 5,989 ✭✭✭emaherx


    frillyleaf wrote: »
    It has happened, I’m personally aware of it. That is why I’m asking about it as it is very unusual for a anyone to abandon a calf.

    I’ve never heard of this situation, that is why I’m asking. It isn’t tagged so it is not traceable.

    I know plenty of dogs cats etc are abandoned but why would a calf a few weeks old be abandoned? It’s very odd

    You are personally aware of an abandoned calf?
    So you know where it came from? Or you are aware of a lost calf that someone is most likely looking for?

    Even without tags it is traceable, most cattle these days are genotyped, even those which are not will most likely have ancestors which were so it would be a big risk to abandon a calf.


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    #18
    frillyleaf
    Registered Users Posts: 801 ✭✭✭frillyleaf


    Say my name wrote: »
    Troll attempt. Minus 5.

    Would ya eff right off!!

    Contact the guards or the ispca if you've concerns. Not start a troll thread on boards.

    I’m not trolling, I’m asking a genuine question. I don’t really see what the issue is here...


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    #19
    _Brian
    Registered Users Posts: 18,498 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    The general population have no idea of the traceability of livestock and the accountability on farmers for their livestock including calves.

    If a farmer had calves disappearing there would be serious questions asked of them and a physical inspection.

    It’s more likely the cow calved outside and somehow the calf got separated, maybe chased by dogs etc.


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    #20
    _Brian
    Registered Users Posts: 18,498 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    frillyleaf wrote: »
    I’m not trolling, I’m asking a genuine question. I don’t really see what the issue is here...

    How aware are you of this, throw out some details


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    #21
    liosnagceann75
    Registered Users Posts: 407 ✭✭liosnagceann75


    frillyleaf wrote: »
    I’m not trolling, I’m asking a genuine question. I don’t really see what the issue is here...

    Stop trolling


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    #22
    emaherx
    Registered Users Posts: 5,989 ✭✭✭emaherx


    frillyleaf wrote: »
    Yes it appears the regulations are very strict. Are there situations that a calf wouldn’t be tagged?

    Are the male calves slaughtered young or are they grown for meat? I know they are separated from mother cow but don’t know at what age etc.

    Who does the farmer have to show the calves to? Thanks

    Yes regulations are very strict, we need to account for every animal.

    Male calves are grown for meat usually to about 3 years.

    Every animal has a birth cert and it's death is also recorded, anything suspicious will be investigated by the department of agriculture.


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    #23
    Say my name
    Registered Users Posts: 11,142 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    frillyleaf wrote: »
    I’m not trolling, I’m asking a genuine question. I don’t really see what the issue is here...

    The issue is you're seemingly personally aware of calves being abandoned in the wilderness of Ireland. Dairy bull calves at that and with no tags and your first instinct is to post on boards. Any normal person their first instinct would be to call the Gardai and the ispca.
    But nooo I'll start a thread on boards.

    How long ago did this happen since you are personally aware of it?
    Are the calves dead or alive now in their abandoned state?
    How did you know they were dairy calves with your zero knowledge of farming?

    And again why haven't you contacted the authorities yourself?

    Private message me with details and I'll personally do it.

    So otherwise this is a troll thread and fishing for sport.. you s..k ph..k


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    #24
    Donnielighto
    Registered Users Posts: 3,761 ✭✭✭Donnielighto


    Say my name wrote: »
    The issue is you're seemingly personally aware of calves being abandoned in the wilderness of Ireland. Dairy bull calves at that and with no tags and your first instinct is to post on boards. Any normal person their first instinct would be to call the Gardai and the ispca.
    But nooo I'll start a thread on boards.

    How long ago did this happen since you are personally aware of it?
    Are the calves dead or alive now in their abandoned state?
    How did you know they were dairy calves with your zero knowledge of farming?

    And again why haven't you contacted the authorities yourself?

    Private message me with details and I'll personally do it.

    So otherwise this is a troll thread and fishing for sport.. you s..k ph..k

    In need for the lobster to be dumped on though.


    OP, you said you are are personally aware where did this happen and what were the circumstances, can't really comment on the specific case you say you are aware of but reasons already mentioned why it wouldnt be the norm.

    Very interested in the case you mentioned though.


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    #25
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    frillyleaf wrote: »
    It has happened, I’m personally aware of it. That is why I’m asking about it as it is very unusual for a anyone to abandon a calf. I’ve never heard of this situation, that is why I’m asking. It isn’t tagged so it is not traceable. I know plenty of dogs cats etc are abandoned but why would a calf a few weeks old be abandoned? It’s very odd

    Sorry OP but I believe this may be the source of the confusion ...
    frillyleaf wrote: »
    Hi. Are there any reasons that someone would abandon a male dairy calf ? I’ve heard of a few abandoned male dairy calves lately and am trying to understand why this would happen.
    The calves I’ve heard about are not tagged so are not traceable. I understand they can’t be moved or mixed with other cows until TB tested.
    ...

    "Heard of" ie related second hand is not "personally aware of'' ie first hand experience.

    It's just there have been the odd case of trolling on the farming forum previously from the usual sources. So if you could give some details how you found said calf / calves that would be good. Otherwise a bit like the Antis using a road kill fox found in a ditch to have a go at others - you may indeed meet some sceptical comments ...

    If you have genuine concerns concerning lost calves then my advice would be to contact the relevant authorities because imo thry would not be deliberatly abandoned.


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    #26
    Buford T. Justice XIX
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,633 ✭✭✭✭Buford T. Justice XIX


    frillyleaf wrote: »
    Yes it appears the regulations are very strict. Are there situations that a calf wouldn’t be tagged?

    Are the male calves slaughtered young or are they grown for meat? I know they are separated from mother cow but don’t know at what age etc.

    Who does the farmer have to show the calves to? Thanks

    There are no situations where a calf wouldn't be tagged and registered. It's a legal requirement that they're tagged within the first 21 days and registered within 28 days and any calf tagged and registered outside the above time frames will greatly increase the probability of a Dept inspection.

    Furthermore, any twins being recorded over and above 3 sets in any one year will guarantee an inspection and possible requirement for DNA testing of the calves at the farmers expense.

    All calves, young stock and adult animals are registered on a database and any movement off the farm must be recorded on the database within 7 days. Any lack of notification or notification outside 7 days will greatly increase the probability of a Dept inspection.

    Any animal on a holding that hasn't been accounted for with a movement notification from a different holding will increase the holdings probability of both holdings being subject to an inspection.

    Any animal not on a holding with no movement notification from that farm will....you've guessed it....greatly increase the probability of an inspection by the Dept.

    So, as you can see from the above, no farmer with even an ounce of sense would attempt to do anything other than follow the requirements for registration and movement for animals on their farms.

    So we would be extremely sceptical of someone announcing the finding of one animal abandoned without tagging never mind a number of them.

    As Brian posted above, the most likely scenario is a cow calving outside and the calf wandering or being chased off.


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    #27
    Ard_MC
    Registered Users Posts: 516 ✭✭✭Ard_MC


    Say my name wrote: »
    The issue is you're seemingly personally aware of calves being abandoned in the wilderness of Ireland. Dairy bull calves at that and with no tags and your first instinct is to post on boards. Any normal person their first instinct would be to call the Gardai and the ispca.
    But nooo I'll start a thread on boards.

    How long ago did this happen since you are personally aware of it?
    Are the calves dead or alive now in their abandoned state?
    How did you know they were dairy calves with your zero knowledge of farming?

    And again why haven't you contacted the authorities yourself?

    Private message me with details and I'll personally do it.

    So otherwise this is a troll thread and fishing for sport.. you s..k ph..k

    Any sign of that PM comin?


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    #28
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,364 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    frillyleaf wrote: »
    I’m not trolling, I’m asking a genuine question. I don’t really see what the issue is here...

    It is not flippant to say one could see how a baby could be abandoned with no trace but a calf, no, not at all.

    If you were milking say a hundred cows, they know the average mortality rate a herd like that will have. They'll also know the calfs genetic history very quickly.

    You be 2 or 3 calves out on that and you'll be red flagged for further investigation.

    The idea that people can abandon calves or kill them with abandon is so far fetched that people will presume you are trolling, you probably dont farm and are not aware how strictly it is controlled and how technically advanced that control is.


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    #29
    frillyleaf
    Registered Users Posts: 801 ✭✭✭frillyleaf


    gozunda wrote: »
    Sorry OP but I believe this may be the source of the confusion ...



    "Heard of" ie related second hand is not "personally aware of'' ie first hand experience.

    It's just there have been the odd case of trolling on the farming forum previously from the usual sources. So if you could give some details how you found said calf / calves that would be good. Otherwise a bit like the Antis using a road kill fox found in a ditch to have a go at others - you may indeed meet some sceptical comments ...

    If you have genuine concerns concerning lost calves then my advice would be to contact the relevant authorities because imo thry would not be deliberatly abandoned.

    Hi apologies, you are right my wording caused confusion. It is something Ive “heard of” as opposed to being personally aware of it . I’ve heard of this a couple of times and am trying to understand why or if someone would ever abandon a calf as it doesn’t make sense to me.

    Firstly, I would never leave an animal somewhere if I felt it was lost, injured in danger (or a danger to other people etc.) I always contact relevant people.

    Secondly, although I’m not from a farming background I do know how well farmers look after their cattle and calves hence me asking here if there was any reason that a calf would be abandoned as if doesn’t make sense to me. My granddad had cattle years ago and seemed to worked day and night with them.

    It just doesn’t make sense....I think what I’ve heard is a spoof. I’m not really sure why people thought I was trolling, I felt this would be a good place to ask as I’ve no idea about anything to do with cattle and was trying to figure out if stories were likely made up


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    #30
    frillyleaf
    Registered Users Posts: 801 ✭✭✭frillyleaf


    Buford T. Justice VI wrote: »
    There are no situations where a calf wouldn't be tagged and registered. It's a legal requirement that they're tagged within the first 21 days and registered within 28 days and any calf tagged and registered outside the above time frames will greatly increase the probability of a Dept inspection.

    Furthermore, any twins being recorded over and above 3 sets in any one year will guarantee an inspection and possible requirement for DNA testing of the calves at the farmers expense.

    All calves, young stock and adult animals are registered on a database and any movement off the farm must be recorded on the database within 7 days. Any lack of notification or notification outside 7 days will greatly increase the probability of a Dept inspection.

    Any animal on a holding that hasn't been accounted for with a movement notification from a different holding will increase the holdings probability of both holdings being subject to an inspection.

    Any animal not on a holding with no movement notification from that farm will....you've guessed it....greatly increase the probability of an inspection by the Dept.

    So, as you can see from the above, no farmer with even an ounce of sense would attempt to do anything other than follow the requirements for registration and movement for animals on their farms.

    So we would be extremely sceptical of someone announcing the finding of one animal abandoned without tagging never mind a number of them.

    As Brian posted above, the most likely scenario is a cow calving outside and the calf wandering or being chased off.

    Thanks for your post it was very informative. Why would over three sets of twins increase chances of an inspection? Is it the same with sheep and pigs or is it to do with control of TB in cows? I’m just trying understand why it is so strict as I don’t know anything about cattle farming.

    Yes, I can see now that it simply doesn’t make sense, there is just no reason that someone would “abandon” a cow or calf


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    #31
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,364 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    frillyleaf wrote: »
    Thanks for your post it was very informative. Why would over three sets of twins increase chances of an inspection? Is it the same with sheep and pigs or is it to do with control of TB in cows? I’m just trying understand why it is so strict as I don’t know anything about cattle farming.

    Yes, I can see now that it simply doesn’t make sense, there is just no reason that someone would “abandon” a cow or calf

    Statistically improbable so it stands out as an aberration.

    You'll have a visit asking for an explanation.


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