Reasons calf would be abandoned

frillyleaf

Danzy wrote: »

It is not flippant to say one could see how a baby could be abandoned with no trace but a calf, no, not at all.

If you were milking say a hundred cows, they know the average mortality rate a herd like that will have. They'll also know the calfs genetic history very quickly.

You be 2 or 3 calves out on that and you'll be red flagged for further investigation.

The idea that people can abandon calves or kill them with abandon is so far fetched that people will presume you are trolling, you probably dont farm and are not aware how strictly it is controlled and how technically advanced that control is.

I don’t really understand what your first sentence means.

Yep that is true. I’m not from a farming background and have no idea how strict it is so was curious to find out more.

What do you mean they’ll know a calf’s genetics history quickly? How do they do that and does the genetic test have to be done for every cow and calf born?

It might seem far fetched but this is why I wanted to ask here but people thought I was trolling

Danzy

frillyleaf wrote: »

I don’t really understand what your first sentence means.

Yep that is true. I’m not from a farming background and have no idea how strict it is so was curious to find out more.

What do you mean they’ll know a calf’s genetics history quickly? How do they do that and does the genetic test have to be done for every cow and calf born?

It might seem far fetched but this is why I wanted to ask here but people thought I was trolling

Are calves have samples submitted, going on for years.

Say my name

Ard_MC wrote: »

Any sign of that PM comin?

Not a sign of one.

It never happened and posters continue to feed the troll.

I repeat again what conditions are the abandoned calves in now?

This time contact the moderators with details of time and dates, location.

Edit: Mods put an acknowledgment post up when you get confirmation.

_Brian

Say my name wrote: »

Not a sign of one.

It never happened and posters continue to feed the troll.

I repeat again what conditions are the abandoned calves in now?

This time contact the moderators with details of time and dates, location.

Edit: Mods put an acknowledgment post up when you get confirmation.

OP has already admitted they have no knowledge of this and it was just a spoof story they were told, no doubt by some dubious anti farming “activists” as a recruitment speech.

Say my name

_Brian wrote: »

OP has already admitted they have no knowledge of this and it was just a spoof story they were told, no doubt by some dubious anti farming “activists” as a recruitment speech.

No they posted they had personal knowledge of this happening.
Go back and read Frillyleaves posts.

So that implies they know the numbers involved, breed which they knew, sex which they knew, appearance of them which they knew as the tags were cut off, so unless the poster is an alien from another planet they also know the location of the calves too.
But yet they never contacted the authorities or seem in any way bothered about the welfare of the calves.

_Brian

Say my name wrote: »

No they posted they had personal knowledge of this happening.
Go back and read Frillyleaves posts.

So that implies they know the numbers involved, breed which they knew, sex which they knew, appearance of them which they knew as the tags were cut off, so unless the poster is an alien from another planet they also know the location of the calves too.
But yet they never contacted the authorities or seem in any way bothered about the welfare of the calves.

@23:49 they admitted it was a story heard rather than something they experienced

_Brian

I think this was either the worst troll story possible considering how quickly they gave it up.

Or more likely some sap who believed the propaganda story of an anti farming idiot and came to have it out with the nasty bad farmers and show them up for the monsters they are.

These anti farming people speak with such passion and vitriol that suckers are completely won over without checking facts or giving it another thought. It’s why farming is loosing the social media war against farmers and animal farming.

Say my name

_Brian wrote: »

@23:49 they admitted it was a story heard rather than something they experienced

Oh right. I missed that bit.

So the op went from being personally aware of this situation to something she heard in the pub happening a few times?

lab man

Danzy wrote:

Any change from the average mortality rate will have you examined further.

Danzy wrote:

Not true either on the shooting part.

Danzy wrote:

It's very small changes, ie 2 or 3 calves more out of a hundred.

I've only 30 cows here had a few sets of twins 6 yrs ago this dept lived here after doing inspections every few wesks

MrMusician18

_Brian wrote: »

The general population have no idea of the traceability of livestock and the accountability on farmers for their livestock including calves.

If a farmer had calves disappearing there would be serious questions asked of them and a physical inspection.

It’s more likely the cow calved outside and somehow the calf got separated, maybe chased by dogs etc.

I remember a while outfarm worth of animals being stolen a few years ago, anyone know what the outcome was there?

Base price

MrMusician18 wrote: »

I remember a while outfarm worth of animals being stolen a few years ago, anyone know what the outcome was there?

A recent article in the Farmers Journal stating that 2,222 cattle have been stolen in the last 10 years, the majority of which are never recovered.
We had 4 stolen in 2013 from an outfarm and no trace of them afterwards. We had an attempted theft in late Spring when 6 factory fit cattle were moved from their shed and locked into a pen ready for loading. Thankfully our dogs woke us during the night.

https://www.farmersjournal.ie/only-4-of-stolen-cattle-are-recovered-498781

frillyleaf

Say my name wrote: »

No they posted they had personal knowledge of this happening.
Go back and read Frillyleaves posts.

So that implies they know the numbers involved, breed which they knew, sex which they knew, appearance of them which they knew as the tags were cut off, so unless the poster is an alien from another planet they also know the location of the calves too.
But yet they never contacted the authorities or seem in any way bothered about the welfare of the calves.

Please read my more recent post to clarify any confusion with my wording.

I would never leave any animal in a situation where I was concerned for its safety, welfare or if it was a danger to other people.

Say my name

frillyleaf wrote: »

It has happened, I’m personally aware of it. That is why I’m asking about it as it is very unusual for a anyone to abandon a calf.

Apologies op it's just I'm used to dealing with truthful people.
Not people who change their mind when the latest bit of examination occurs.

frillyleaf

_Brian wrote: »

I think this was either the worst troll story possible considering how quickly they gave it up.

Or more likely some sap who believed the propaganda story of an anti farming idiot and came to have it out with the nasty bad farmers and show them up for the monsters they are.

These anti farming people speak with such passion and vitriol that suckers are completely won over without checking facts or giving it another thought. It’s why farming is loosing the social media war against farmers and animal farming.

I’m surprised with the hostility I’ve been met with on this thread being constantly accused of trolling when in fact I was looking for opinions from people who actually know about farming - hence the reason I posted in a farming thread.

You’re response to me is quite unfair and aggressive and I’m not really sure why. I clarified that I’m not from a farming background and that I don’t know much about cattle and was trying to find out information so I could inform myself. I know laws about domestic and wild animals but nothing agricultural animals and was simply trying to inform myself.

This is nothing to do with me having it out with “nasty farmers”. My granddad was a cattle farmer and worked day and night so I know how hard farmers work to look after cattle livestock. I know that farmers get up in the middle of the night to make sure calves are born safe etc.

Your post above has used name calling twice. I would suspect that is why you are “losing a social media war” if there is one.

I took the time to post on this thread to ask questions as I was interested to know more and some of the responses have surprised me.

It is very clear to me from some posts how well cattle are looked after and that abandoning calves is extremely unlikely. Therefore these stories are a) spoofs or b) likely a calf that has wondered away from where it belongs for someone who would likely be looking for it

Instead of attacking people who are asking questions it would be better to speak to them in a way that helps them understand farming. There really is no need to be so rude to someone who is taking the time to inform themselves as opposed to “ not giving it a second thought”

frillyleaf

Say my name wrote: »

Apologies op it's just I'm used to dealing with truthful people.
Not people who change their mind when the latest bit of examination occurs.

As mentioned I did clarify that my wording caused confusion. I am surprised with the responses I’ve been met with on this thread when I’ve taken the time to try and get an understanding of something. I’ve never received such hostility asking about an animal welfare issue, usually people try to help people understand something not attack them

Say my name

Why did you post that you were "personally aware" of a situation and then backtrack in later posts that you heard tell of it happening more than once from some vague third party reference?

And don't go blaming it on your "wording".
You seem to have an excellent grasp of the language.

Maybe this "hostility" you're experiencing from posters is just posters seeing through the integrity of a poster.

frillyleaf

Base price wrote: »

A recent article in the Farmers Journal stating that 2,222 cattle have been stolen in the last 10 years, the majority of which are never recovered.
We had 4 stolen in 2013 from an outfarm and no trace of them afterwards. We had an attempted theft in late Spring when 6 factory fit cattle were moved from their shed and locked into a pen ready for loading. Thankfully our dogs woke us during the night.

https://www.farmersjournal.ie/only-4-of-stolen-cattle-are-recovered-498781

That’s awful. Sorry to hear that happened to your cows. What would people do with them? I would have thought with how traceable they are that there is no way they could be sold on etc. I’m glad you stopped the other ones being taken.

frillyleaf

Say my name wrote: »

Why did you post that you were "personally aware" of a situation and then backtrack in later posts that you heard tell of it happening more than once from some vague third party reference?

And don't go blaming it on how your "wording".
You seem to have a good grasp of the language.

Maybe this "hostility" you're experiencing from posters is just posters seeing through the integrity of a poster.

Because sometimes when we reflect on things we realise that maybe we don’t have the full facts and maybe we believed a spoof. I have clearly stated that in this thread on numerous occasions.

Some people have been quite helpful on this thread which has helped me understand things from a farmers point of view. It’s helped me understand how strict regulations are and in that there is no reason a farmer would “abandon” a calf.

There really is no need to be so defensive, it wasn’t an attack on farmers, quite the opposite in fact.

Say my name

frillyleaf wrote: »

Because sometimes when we reflect on things we realise that maybe we don’t have the full facts and maybe we believed a spoof. I have clearly stated that in this thread on numerous occasions.

Some people have been quite helpful on this thread which has helped me understand things from a farmers point of view. It’s helped me understand how strict regulations are and in that there is no reason a farmer would “abandon” a calf.

There really is no need to be so defensive, it wasn’t an attack on farmers, quite the opposite in fact.

Ah you're clearly filling out your questionnaire on livestock traceability in Ireland for PETA.

If you had of started with that, instead of your bullcrap, we might all be on a sounder footing at this stage.

Base price

frillyleaf wrote: »

That’s awful. Sorry to hear that happened to your cows. What would people do with them? I would have thought with how traceable they are that there is no way they could be sold on etc. I’m glad you stopped the other ones being taken.

There is only 3 ways cattle can legally move off a farm due to stringent DAFM traceability protocols - the first is to be sold privately or through a mart to another farmer, the second is to be sold to a factory for slaughter and the third is if they die on farm. In all cases the movement has to be recorded. For example if I have 100 head of cattle on my farm, I and DAFM have an electronic record of those individual animals at any time. If I sell one or if one dies that electronic record is amended to reflect the movement of that animal. If a calf is born then that birth must be recorded and the calf tagged see post 26.

If an animal is stolen then the above protocols have obviously been bypassed. It is believed that a cross border gang is responsible for a number of these thefts.

Base price

I should have mentioned that there is a protocol in place when an animal is stolen. You must inform DAFM and the Gardai as soon as possible giving details including the animals tag number. The Garda records the theft on the PULSE system and they give you the PULSE record number. You then send this along with the animals Passport to your local DAFM District Veterinary Office.

kk.man

frillyleaf wrote: »

Because sometimes when we reflect on things we realise that maybe we don’t have the full facts and maybe we believed a spoof. I have clearly stated that in this thread on numerous occasions.

Some people have been quite helpful on this thread which has helped me understand things from a farmers point of view. It’s helped me understand how strict regulations are and in that there is no reason a farmer would “abandon” a calf.

There really is no need to be so defensive, it wasn’t an attack on farmers, quite the opposite in fact.

First and foremost the word 'abandoned' is what you used. This alone will fuel farmers anger. I know of no farmer that has 'abandoned' their animals bar ISCPA cases which all farmers condemns.
Calf issues which are now coming on stream because of accelerated diary production and depressed beef prices. A high ranking Teagasc Official who holds the title of Doctor in an academic field, admitted in the planning of increased diary output they never thought about the diary calf. However none of the aforementioned have led to abandonment of calves.
In modern agriculture every action leaves a trace so if a farmer has no calves to show for cows he has or has no death certs from the relevant animal disposal premises then alarm bells rings.
If you have specific information I as others have stated you can contact the Gardaí, Department of Agriculture or the ISPCA. If you want to remain anonymous I believe Crime Stoppers free phone number has such facility and you might get a financial reward for your civic mindfulness.

Finally you mention your condolence to a poster for the theft of a posters theft of 'cows'. While I am sure your post was well intended and gracefully accepted by 'Base Price'. What this exposed your knowledge of farming, many non farming persons use 'cows' as a collective for bovine animals when in fact all farmers would refer to them as 'cattle'. Your post stinks of you don't know what you are talking about. I as many here draw the conclusion you are a WUM (Wind up merchant). I'd respectfully request the MODS to close this thread, as it has no purpose and taking up space where genuine persons can discuss what they have knowledge about.

frillyleaf

Base price wrote: »

There is only 3 ways cattle can legally move off a farm due to stringent DAFM traceability protocols - the first is to be sold privately or through a mart to another farmer, the second is to be sold to a factory for slaughter and the third is if they die on farm. In all cases the movement has to be recorded. For example if I have 100 head of cattle on my farm, I and DAFM have an electronic record of those individual animals at any time. If I sell one or if one dies that electronic record is amended to reflect the movement of that animal. If a calf is born then that birth must be recorded and the calf tagged see post 26.

If an animal is stolen then the above protocols have obviously been bypassed. It is believed that a cross border gang is responsible for a number of these thefts.

That’s terrible people are doing that. It must be stressful for the farmers and obviously the animals that were taken. I assume once they leave Ireland there isn’t need for traceability if it’s thought they are cross border.

It is good that the rules are so strict and that every animal needs to be accounted for. It’s a shame the same rules aren’t applied to horses for example as there is a horse crises in Ireland and thousands are suffering from neglect and not living in suitable conditions without veterinary care or adequate food.

It’s the same as puppy farms, if these types of rules were applied there would be a lot less dogs ending up in shelters and being sold online.

K.G.

The reason people are on edge is there is alot of rumour s about dairy born calves at the moment.we live in a strong dairy area and i have never seen or heard of a calf being abandoned. But like any walk of life there is clowns that are capable of doing stupid things but its very rare

Base price

frillyleaf wrote: »

That’s terrible people are doing that. It must be stressful for the farmers and obviously the animals that were taken. I assume once they leave Ireland there isn’t need for traceability if it’s thought they are cross border.

It is good that the rules are so strict and that every animal needs to be accounted for. It’s a shame the same rules aren’t applied to horses for example as there is a horse crises in Ireland and thousands are suffering from neglect and not living in suitable conditions without veterinary care or adequate food.

It’s the same as puppy farms, if these types of rules were applied there would be a lot less dogs ending up in shelters and being sold online.

Our farming neighbours in the North of Ireland have to abide by similar traceability protocols implemented by DEFRA - Department of Environment, Farming and Rural Affairs. Both DAFM and DEFRA work together to maintain strict livestock health and welfare standards on the island of Ireland.

Buford T. Justice XIX

frillyleaf wrote: »

As mentioned I did clarify that my wording caused confusion.

Tbh, the tone of a conversation most often follows the tone of the opening post. It sent red flags flying with me as soon as I saw the post. I'll accept that no offence was meant but there was an aggressive tone to that post which would be matched with responses.

I am surprised with the responses I’ve been met with on this thread when I’ve taken the time to try and get an understanding of something.

As mentioned above, a more inquisitive and less hostile post would have yielded the answers you seek. Folk here are going to be extremely wary of single issue posters especially since the false narrative being promoted by RTE on responsibility for climate change.

I’ve never received such hostility asking about an animal welfare issue, usually people try to help people understand something not attack them

We deal with welfare every single hour of each day and every single day of each year. We are more than well aware of welfare issues but, as you admitted, a changing background to your question will raise questions here.

The scope for 'abandonment' of calves is tiny so mentioning a number of cases that you are aware of, second-hand accounts instead of first-hand accounts, isn't going to yield anything other scepticism around here.

In all cases of welfare issues, the appropriate authorities should be the first port of call and background issues discussed later. It's similar to the camera phone recording somebody in danger instead of actually throwing a lifebelt or administration of first aid.

Donald Trump

Base price wrote: »

There is only 3 ways cattle can legally move off a farm due to stringent DAFM traceability protocols - the first is to be sold privately or through a mart to another farmer, the second is to be sold to a factory for slaughter and the third is if they die on farm. In all cases the movement has to be recorded. For example if I have 100 head of cattle on my farm, I and DAFM have an electronic record of those individual animals at any time. If I sell one or if one dies that electronic record is amended to reflect the movement of that animal. If a calf is born then that birth must be recorded and the calf tagged see post 26.

If an animal is stolen then the above protocols have obviously been bypassed. It is believed that a cross border gang is responsible for a number of these thefts.

Not to mention that if there is an animal not present for the annual herd test and its not recorded as sold/died then there's going to be a whole different world of shite

patsy_mccabe

These nutters want CCTV on all livestock farms. I kid you not .........


https://twitter.com/ethicalfarmIE/status/1197489034454601728

greysides

Mod: I think the questions have been answered and can see no good coming of leaving it running.
Thank you everyone for your answers.