Reasons calf would be abandoned

frillyleaf

Hi. Are there any reasons that someone would abandon a male dairy calf ? I’ve heard of a few abandoned male dairy calves lately and am trying to understand why this would happen.

The calves I’ve heard about are not tagged so are not traceable. I understand they can’t be moved or mixed with other cows until TB tested.

It seems quite unusual and obviously it’s unethical from an animal welfare and disease control point of view.

Bass Reeves

frillyleaf wrote: »

Hi. Are there any reasons that someone would abandon a male dairy calf ? I’ve heard of a few abandoned male dairy calves lately and am trying to understand why this would happen.

The calves I’ve heard about are not tagged so are not traceable. I understand they can’t be moved or mixed with other cows until TB tested.

It seems quite unusual and obviously it’s unethical from an animal welfare and disease control point of view.

Dose not happen as they can and will be traced by genetic testing . It called a vegan legend similar to urban legends

valtra2

There left out to feed the wolf.

Say my name

I've heard Prince Charles is coming to co.Wicklow in the next few months.

Bass Reeves

Say my name wrote: »

I've heard Prince Charles is coming to co.Wicklow in the next few months.

He bringing prince Andrew with him and going to abandon him at the side of the road there

Say my name

Bass Reeves wrote: »

He bringing prince Andrew with him and going to abandon him at the side of the road there

That'd be no sweat to that fella!!

Gael23

Suppose they are waste product to most farmers. Many are shot at birth

Buford T. Justice XIX

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Dose not happen as they can and will be traced by genetic testing . It called a vegan legend similar to urban legends

Never mind that all cows in milk will have to show a calf on the farm that was tagged and BVD tested.

Danzy

Gael23 wrote: »

Suppose they are waste product to most farmers. Many are shot at birth

Not true either on the shooting part.

Any change from the average mortality rate will have you examined further.

It's very small changes, ie 2 or 3 calves more out of a hundred.

Bass Reeves

Say my name wrote: »

That'd be no sweat to that fella!!

There wouldn't be a young um( ewe lamb) save on the Wicklow mountains. I sure he have his wellies with him

PoorFarmer

Gael23 wrote:

Suppose they are waste product to most farmers. Many are shot at birth

And you have some evidence to back this statement up?

K.G.

Personally it sounds like a rural legend.

frillyleaf

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Dose not happen as they can and will be traced by genetic testing . It called a vegan legend similar to urban legends

It has happened, I’m personally aware of it. That is why I’m asking about it as it is very unusual for a anyone to abandon a calf.

I’ve never heard of this situation, that is why I’m asking. It isn’t tagged so it is not traceable.

I know plenty of dogs cats etc are abandoned but why would a calf a few weeks old be abandoned? It’s very odd

frillyleaf

Buford T. Justice VI wrote: »

Never mind that all cows in milk will have to show a calf on the farm that was tagged and BVD tested.

Yes it appears the regulations are very strict. Are there situations that a calf wouldn’t be tagged?

Are the male calves slaughtered young or are they grown for meat? I know they are separated from mother cow but don’t know at what age etc.

Who does the farmer have to show the calves to? Thanks

frillyleaf

Danzy wrote: »

Not true either on the shooting part.

Any change from the average mortality rate will have you examined further.

It's very small changes, ie 2 or 3 calves more out of a hundred.

Hi what does this mean? I’m not from farming background so don’t understand what you mean by examined and changes as mentioned above

Say my name

Troll attempt. Minus 5.

Would ya eff right off!!

Contact the guards or the ispca if you've concerns. Not start a troll thread on boards.

emaherx

frillyleaf wrote: »

It has happened, I’m personally aware of it. That is why I’m asking about it as it is very unusual for a anyone to abandon a calf.

I’ve never heard of this situation, that is why I’m asking. It isn’t tagged so it is not traceable.

I know plenty of dogs cats etc are abandoned but why would a calf a few weeks old be abandoned? It’s very odd

You are personally aware of an abandoned calf?
So you know where it came from? Or you are aware of a lost calf that someone is most likely looking for?

Even without tags it is traceable, most cattle these days are genotyped, even those which are not will most likely have ancestors which were so it would be a big risk to abandon a calf.

frillyleaf

Say my name wrote: »

Troll attempt. Minus 5.

Would ya eff right off!!

Contact the guards or the ispca if you've concerns. Not start a troll thread on boards.

I’m not trolling, I’m asking a genuine question. I don’t really see what the issue is here...

_Brian

The general population have no idea of the traceability of livestock and the accountability on farmers for their livestock including calves.

If a farmer had calves disappearing there would be serious questions asked of them and a physical inspection.

It’s more likely the cow calved outside and somehow the calf got separated, maybe chased by dogs etc.

_Brian

frillyleaf wrote: »

I’m not trolling, I’m asking a genuine question. I don’t really see what the issue is here...

How aware are you of this, throw out some details

liosnagceann75

frillyleaf wrote: »

I’m not trolling, I’m asking a genuine question. I don’t really see what the issue is here...

Stop trolling

emaherx

frillyleaf wrote: »

Yes it appears the regulations are very strict. Are there situations that a calf wouldn’t be tagged?

Are the male calves slaughtered young or are they grown for meat? I know they are separated from mother cow but don’t know at what age etc.

Who does the farmer have to show the calves to? Thanks

Yes regulations are very strict, we need to account for every animal.

Male calves are grown for meat usually to about 3 years.

Every animal has a birth cert and it's death is also recorded, anything suspicious will be investigated by the department of agriculture.

Say my name

frillyleaf wrote: »

I’m not trolling, I’m asking a genuine question. I don’t really see what the issue is here...

The issue is you're seemingly personally aware of calves being abandoned in the wilderness of Ireland. Dairy bull calves at that and with no tags and your first instinct is to post on boards. Any normal person their first instinct would be to call the Gardai and the ispca.
But nooo I'll start a thread on boards.

How long ago did this happen since you are personally aware of it?
Are the calves dead or alive now in their abandoned state?
How did you know they were dairy calves with your zero knowledge of farming?

And again why haven't you contacted the authorities yourself?

Private message me with details and I'll personally do it.

So otherwise this is a troll thread and fishing for sport.. you s..k ph..k

Donnielighto

Say my name wrote: »

The issue is you're seemingly personally aware of calves being abandoned in the wilderness of Ireland. Dairy bull calves at that and with no tags and your first instinct is to post on boards. Any normal person their first instinct would be to call the Gardai and the ispca.
But nooo I'll start a thread on boards.

How long ago did this happen since you are personally aware of it?
Are the calves dead or alive now in their abandoned state?
How did you know they were dairy calves with your zero knowledge of farming?

And again why haven't you contacted the authorities yourself?

Private message me with details and I'll personally do it.

So otherwise this is a troll thread and fishing for sport.. you s..k ph..k

In need for the lobster to be dumped on though.


OP, you said you are are personally aware where did this happen and what were the circumstances, can't really comment on the specific case you say you are aware of but reasons already mentioned why it wouldnt be the norm.

Very interested in the case you mentioned though.

gozunda

frillyleaf wrote: »

It has happened, I’m personally aware of it. That is why I’m asking about it as it is very unusual for a anyone to abandon a calf. I’ve never heard of this situation, that is why I’m asking. It isn’t tagged so it is not traceable. I know plenty of dogs cats etc are abandoned but why would a calf a few weeks old be abandoned? It’s very odd

Sorry OP but I believe this may be the source of the confusion ...

frillyleaf wrote: »

Hi. Are there any reasons that someone would abandon a male dairy calf ? I’ve heard of a few abandoned male dairy calves lately and am trying to understand why this would happen.
The calves I’ve heard about are not tagged so are not traceable. I understand they can’t be moved or mixed with other cows until TB tested.
...

"Heard of" ie related second hand is not "personally aware of'' ie first hand experience.

It's just there have been the odd case of trolling on the farming forum previously from the usual sources. So if you could give some details how you found said calf / calves that would be good. Otherwise a bit like the Antis using a road kill fox found in a ditch to have a go at others - you may indeed meet some sceptical comments ...

If you have genuine concerns concerning lost calves then my advice would be to contact the relevant authorities because imo thry would not be deliberatly abandoned.

Buford T. Justice XIX

frillyleaf wrote: »

Yes it appears the regulations are very strict. Are there situations that a calf wouldn’t be tagged?

Are the male calves slaughtered young or are they grown for meat? I know they are separated from mother cow but don’t know at what age etc.

Who does the farmer have to show the calves to? Thanks

There are no situations where a calf wouldn't be tagged and registered. It's a legal requirement that they're tagged within the first 21 days and registered within 28 days and any calf tagged and registered outside the above time frames will greatly increase the probability of a Dept inspection.

Furthermore, any twins being recorded over and above 3 sets in any one year will guarantee an inspection and possible requirement for DNA testing of the calves at the farmers expense.

All calves, young stock and adult animals are registered on a database and any movement off the farm must be recorded on the database within 7 days. Any lack of notification or notification outside 7 days will greatly increase the probability of a Dept inspection.

Any animal on a holding that hasn't been accounted for with a movement notification from a different holding will increase the holdings probability of both holdings being subject to an inspection.

Any animal not on a holding with no movement notification from that farm will....you've guessed it....greatly increase the probability of an inspection by the Dept.

So, as you can see from the above, no farmer with even an ounce of sense would attempt to do anything other than follow the requirements for registration and movement for animals on their farms.

So we would be extremely sceptical of someone announcing the finding of one animal abandoned without tagging never mind a number of them.

As Brian posted above, the most likely scenario is a cow calving outside and the calf wandering or being chased off.

Ard_MC

Say my name wrote: »

The issue is you're seemingly personally aware of calves being abandoned in the wilderness of Ireland. Dairy bull calves at that and with no tags and your first instinct is to post on boards. Any normal person their first instinct would be to call the Gardai and the ispca.
But nooo I'll start a thread on boards.

How long ago did this happen since you are personally aware of it?
Are the calves dead or alive now in their abandoned state?
How did you know they were dairy calves with your zero knowledge of farming?

And again why haven't you contacted the authorities yourself?

Private message me with details and I'll personally do it.

So otherwise this is a troll thread and fishing for sport.. you s..k ph..k

Any sign of that PM comin?

Danzy

frillyleaf wrote: »

I’m not trolling, I’m asking a genuine question. I don’t really see what the issue is here...

It is not flippant to say one could see how a baby could be abandoned with no trace but a calf, no, not at all.

If you were milking say a hundred cows, they know the average mortality rate a herd like that will have. They'll also know the calfs genetic history very quickly.

You be 2 or 3 calves out on that and you'll be red flagged for further investigation.

The idea that people can abandon calves or kill them with abandon is so far fetched that people will presume you are trolling, you probably dont farm and are not aware how strictly it is controlled and how technically advanced that control is.

frillyleaf

gozunda wrote: »

Sorry OP but I believe this may be the source of the confusion ...



"Heard of" ie related second hand is not "personally aware of'' ie first hand experience.

It's just there have been the odd case of trolling on the farming forum previously from the usual sources. So if you could give some details how you found said calf / calves that would be good. Otherwise a bit like the Antis using a road kill fox found in a ditch to have a go at others - you may indeed meet some sceptical comments ...

If you have genuine concerns concerning lost calves then my advice would be to contact the relevant authorities because imo thry would not be deliberatly abandoned.

Hi apologies, you are right my wording caused confusion. It is something Ive “heard of” as opposed to being personally aware of it . I’ve heard of this a couple of times and am trying to understand why or if someone would ever abandon a calf as it doesn’t make sense to me.

Firstly, I would never leave an animal somewhere if I felt it was lost, injured in danger (or a danger to other people etc.) I always contact relevant people.

Secondly, although I’m not from a farming background I do know how well farmers look after their cattle and calves hence me asking here if there was any reason that a calf would be abandoned as if doesn’t make sense to me. My granddad had cattle years ago and seemed to worked day and night with them.

It just doesn’t make sense....I think what I’ve heard is a spoof. I’m not really sure why people thought I was trolling, I felt this would be a good place to ask as I’ve no idea about anything to do with cattle and was trying to figure out if stories were likely made up

frillyleaf

Buford T. Justice VI wrote: »

There are no situations where a calf wouldn't be tagged and registered. It's a legal requirement that they're tagged within the first 21 days and registered within 28 days and any calf tagged and registered outside the above time frames will greatly increase the probability of a Dept inspection.

Furthermore, any twins being recorded over and above 3 sets in any one year will guarantee an inspection and possible requirement for DNA testing of the calves at the farmers expense.

All calves, young stock and adult animals are registered on a database and any movement off the farm must be recorded on the database within 7 days. Any lack of notification or notification outside 7 days will greatly increase the probability of a Dept inspection.

Any animal on a holding that hasn't been accounted for with a movement notification from a different holding will increase the holdings probability of both holdings being subject to an inspection.

Any animal not on a holding with no movement notification from that farm will....you've guessed it....greatly increase the probability of an inspection by the Dept.

So, as you can see from the above, no farmer with even an ounce of sense would attempt to do anything other than follow the requirements for registration and movement for animals on their farms.

So we would be extremely sceptical of someone announcing the finding of one animal abandoned without tagging never mind a number of them.

As Brian posted above, the most likely scenario is a cow calving outside and the calf wandering or being chased off.

Thanks for your post it was very informative. Why would over three sets of twins increase chances of an inspection? Is it the same with sheep and pigs or is it to do with control of TB in cows? I’m just trying understand why it is so strict as I don’t know anything about cattle farming.

Yes, I can see now that it simply doesn’t make sense, there is just no reason that someone would “abandon” a cow or calf

Danzy

frillyleaf wrote: »

Thanks for your post it was very informative. Why would over three sets of twins increase chances of an inspection? Is it the same with sheep and pigs or is it to do with control of TB in cows? I’m just trying understand why it is so strict as I don’t know anything about cattle farming.

Yes, I can see now that it simply doesn’t make sense, there is just no reason that someone would “abandon” a cow or calf

Statistically improbable so it stands out as an aberration.

You'll have a visit asking for an explanation.

frillyleaf

Danzy wrote: »

It is not flippant to say one could see how a baby could be abandoned with no trace but a calf, no, not at all.

If you were milking say a hundred cows, they know the average mortality rate a herd like that will have. They'll also know the calfs genetic history very quickly.

You be 2 or 3 calves out on that and you'll be red flagged for further investigation.

The idea that people can abandon calves or kill them with abandon is so far fetched that people will presume you are trolling, you probably dont farm and are not aware how strictly it is controlled and how technically advanced that control is.

I don’t really understand what your first sentence means.

Yep that is true. I’m not from a farming background and have no idea how strict it is so was curious to find out more.

What do you mean they’ll know a calf’s genetics history quickly? How do they do that and does the genetic test have to be done for every cow and calf born?

It might seem far fetched but this is why I wanted to ask here but people thought I was trolling

Danzy

frillyleaf wrote: »

I don’t really understand what your first sentence means.

Yep that is true. I’m not from a farming background and have no idea how strict it is so was curious to find out more.

What do you mean they’ll know a calf’s genetics history quickly? How do they do that and does the genetic test have to be done for every cow and calf born?

It might seem far fetched but this is why I wanted to ask here but people thought I was trolling

Are calves have samples submitted, going on for years.

Say my name

Ard_MC wrote: »

Any sign of that PM comin?

Not a sign of one.

It never happened and posters continue to feed the troll.

I repeat again what conditions are the abandoned calves in now?

This time contact the moderators with details of time and dates, location.

Edit: Mods put an acknowledgment post up when you get confirmation.

_Brian

Say my name wrote: »

Not a sign of one.

It never happened and posters continue to feed the troll.

I repeat again what conditions are the abandoned calves in now?

This time contact the moderators with details of time and dates, location.

Edit: Mods put an acknowledgment post up when you get confirmation.

OP has already admitted they have no knowledge of this and it was just a spoof story they were told, no doubt by some dubious anti farming “activists” as a recruitment speech.

Say my name

_Brian wrote: »

OP has already admitted they have no knowledge of this and it was just a spoof story they were told, no doubt by some dubious anti farming “activists” as a recruitment speech.

No they posted they had personal knowledge of this happening.
Go back and read Frillyleaves posts.

So that implies they know the numbers involved, breed which they knew, sex which they knew, appearance of them which they knew as the tags were cut off, so unless the poster is an alien from another planet they also know the location of the calves too.
But yet they never contacted the authorities or seem in any way bothered about the welfare of the calves.

_Brian

Say my name wrote: »

No they posted they had personal knowledge of this happening.
Go back and read Frillyleaves posts.

So that implies they know the numbers involved, breed which they knew, sex which they knew, appearance of them which they knew as the tags were cut off, so unless the poster is an alien from another planet they also know the location of the calves too.
But yet they never contacted the authorities or seem in any way bothered about the welfare of the calves.

@23:49 they admitted it was a story heard rather than something they experienced

_Brian

I think this was either the worst troll story possible considering how quickly they gave it up.

Or more likely some sap who believed the propaganda story of an anti farming idiot and came to have it out with the nasty bad farmers and show them up for the monsters they are.

These anti farming people speak with such passion and vitriol that suckers are completely won over without checking facts or giving it another thought. It’s why farming is loosing the social media war against farmers and animal farming.

Say my name

_Brian wrote: »

@23:49 they admitted it was a story heard rather than something they experienced

Oh right. I missed that bit.

So the op went from being personally aware of this situation to something she heard in the pub happening a few times?

lab man

Danzy wrote:

Any change from the average mortality rate will have you examined further.

Danzy wrote:

Not true either on the shooting part.

Danzy wrote:

It's very small changes, ie 2 or 3 calves more out of a hundred.

I've only 30 cows here had a few sets of twins 6 yrs ago this dept lived here after doing inspections every few wesks

MrMusician18

_Brian wrote: »

The general population have no idea of the traceability of livestock and the accountability on farmers for their livestock including calves.

If a farmer had calves disappearing there would be serious questions asked of them and a physical inspection.

It’s more likely the cow calved outside and somehow the calf got separated, maybe chased by dogs etc.

I remember a while outfarm worth of animals being stolen a few years ago, anyone know what the outcome was there?

Base price

MrMusician18 wrote: »

I remember a while outfarm worth of animals being stolen a few years ago, anyone know what the outcome was there?

A recent article in the Farmers Journal stating that 2,222 cattle have been stolen in the last 10 years, the majority of which are never recovered.
We had 4 stolen in 2013 from an outfarm and no trace of them afterwards. We had an attempted theft in late Spring when 6 factory fit cattle were moved from their shed and locked into a pen ready for loading. Thankfully our dogs woke us during the night.

https://www.farmersjournal.ie/only-4-of-stolen-cattle-are-recovered-498781

frillyleaf

Say my name wrote: »

No they posted they had personal knowledge of this happening.
Go back and read Frillyleaves posts.

So that implies they know the numbers involved, breed which they knew, sex which they knew, appearance of them which they knew as the tags were cut off, so unless the poster is an alien from another planet they also know the location of the calves too.
But yet they never contacted the authorities or seem in any way bothered about the welfare of the calves.

Please read my more recent post to clarify any confusion with my wording.

I would never leave any animal in a situation where I was concerned for its safety, welfare or if it was a danger to other people.

Say my name

frillyleaf wrote: »

It has happened, I’m personally aware of it. That is why I’m asking about it as it is very unusual for a anyone to abandon a calf.

Apologies op it's just I'm used to dealing with truthful people.
Not people who change their mind when the latest bit of examination occurs.

frillyleaf

_Brian wrote: »

I think this was either the worst troll story possible considering how quickly they gave it up.

Or more likely some sap who believed the propaganda story of an anti farming idiot and came to have it out with the nasty bad farmers and show them up for the monsters they are.

These anti farming people speak with such passion and vitriol that suckers are completely won over without checking facts or giving it another thought. It’s why farming is loosing the social media war against farmers and animal farming.

I’m surprised with the hostility I’ve been met with on this thread being constantly accused of trolling when in fact I was looking for opinions from people who actually know about farming - hence the reason I posted in a farming thread.

You’re response to me is quite unfair and aggressive and I’m not really sure why. I clarified that I’m not from a farming background and that I don’t know much about cattle and was trying to find out information so I could inform myself. I know laws about domestic and wild animals but nothing agricultural animals and was simply trying to inform myself.

This is nothing to do with me having it out with “nasty farmers”. My granddad was a cattle farmer and worked day and night so I know how hard farmers work to look after cattle livestock. I know that farmers get up in the middle of the night to make sure calves are born safe etc.

Your post above has used name calling twice. I would suspect that is why you are “losing a social media war” if there is one.

I took the time to post on this thread to ask questions as I was interested to know more and some of the responses have surprised me.

It is very clear to me from some posts how well cattle are looked after and that abandoning calves is extremely unlikely. Therefore these stories are a) spoofs or b) likely a calf that has wondered away from where it belongs for someone who would likely be looking for it

Instead of attacking people who are asking questions it would be better to speak to them in a way that helps them understand farming. There really is no need to be so rude to someone who is taking the time to inform themselves as opposed to “ not giving it a second thought”

frillyleaf

Say my name wrote: »

Apologies op it's just I'm used to dealing with truthful people.
Not people who change their mind when the latest bit of examination occurs.

As mentioned I did clarify that my wording caused confusion. I am surprised with the responses I’ve been met with on this thread when I’ve taken the time to try and get an understanding of something. I’ve never received such hostility asking about an animal welfare issue, usually people try to help people understand something not attack them

Say my name

Why did you post that you were "personally aware" of a situation and then backtrack in later posts that you heard tell of it happening more than once from some vague third party reference?

And don't go blaming it on your "wording".
You seem to have an excellent grasp of the language.

Maybe this "hostility" you're experiencing from posters is just posters seeing through the integrity of a poster.

frillyleaf

Base price wrote: »

A recent article in the Farmers Journal stating that 2,222 cattle have been stolen in the last 10 years, the majority of which are never recovered.
We had 4 stolen in 2013 from an outfarm and no trace of them afterwards. We had an attempted theft in late Spring when 6 factory fit cattle were moved from their shed and locked into a pen ready for loading. Thankfully our dogs woke us during the night.

https://www.farmersjournal.ie/only-4-of-stolen-cattle-are-recovered-498781

That’s awful. Sorry to hear that happened to your cows. What would people do with them? I would have thought with how traceable they are that there is no way they could be sold on etc. I’m glad you stopped the other ones being taken.

frillyleaf

Say my name wrote: »

Why did you post that you were "personally aware" of a situation and then backtrack in later posts that you heard tell of it happening more than once from some vague third party reference?

And don't go blaming it on how your "wording".
You seem to have a good grasp of the language.

Maybe this "hostility" you're experiencing from posters is just posters seeing through the integrity of a poster.

Because sometimes when we reflect on things we realise that maybe we don’t have the full facts and maybe we believed a spoof. I have clearly stated that in this thread on numerous occasions.

Some people have been quite helpful on this thread which has helped me understand things from a farmers point of view. It’s helped me understand how strict regulations are and in that there is no reason a farmer would “abandon” a calf.

There really is no need to be so defensive, it wasn’t an attack on farmers, quite the opposite in fact.

Say my name

frillyleaf wrote: »

Because sometimes when we reflect on things we realise that maybe we don’t have the full facts and maybe we believed a spoof. I have clearly stated that in this thread on numerous occasions.

Some people have been quite helpful on this thread which has helped me understand things from a farmers point of view. It’s helped me understand how strict regulations are and in that there is no reason a farmer would “abandon” a calf.

There really is no need to be so defensive, it wasn’t an attack on farmers, quite the opposite in fact.

Ah you're clearly filling out your questionnaire on livestock traceability in Ireland for PETA.

If you had of started with that, instead of your bullcrap, we might all be on a sounder footing at this stage.

Base price

frillyleaf wrote: »

That’s awful. Sorry to hear that happened to your cows. What would people do with them? I would have thought with how traceable they are that there is no way they could be sold on etc. I’m glad you stopped the other ones being taken.

There is only 3 ways cattle can legally move off a farm due to stringent DAFM traceability protocols - the first is to be sold privately or through a mart to another farmer, the second is to be sold to a factory for slaughter and the third is if they die on farm. In all cases the movement has to be recorded. For example if I have 100 head of cattle on my farm, I and DAFM have an electronic record of those individual animals at any time. If I sell one or if one dies that electronic record is amended to reflect the movement of that animal. If a calf is born then that birth must be recorded and the calf tagged see post 26.

If an animal is stolen then the above protocols have obviously been bypassed. It is believed that a cross border gang is responsible for a number of these thefts.