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End to homelessness group on Facebook

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    #92
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I worked frontline local authority housing for several years- during the boom and during the worst of the downturn.

    in the county i was in, the housing list ran at about 1000 in that time, if i recall correctly.

    this number was split down fairly predictable lines

    - single people (mainly pissheads) only on the list to continue to be eligible for the rent supplement
    - low income/no income families, usually one parent a carer for the other, or travellers
    - single mothers who were usually known to be with the daddy but happy to pretend the children were immaculately conceived

    the proportion of the people i met working or studying was maybe one in five or thereabouts.

    the proportion down as unfit to work but either through a fondness for drink or because they had a doctor who wasn't bothered arguing it with them, one in three or thereabouts

    the proportion simply not working and never gonna look, about half

    this was at full employment.

    tbf it changed a bit as things worsened, but when i hear people speculate that the majority of people 'homeless' or on the long-term housing list waiting for their number to come up are somehow trapped in a situation that we should all be helping them out of, i can only say that my experience is that most of em really do just want a free forever house and are shameless about it, and a lot of the rest dont care too much as long as someone is paying their rent and bills so they never have to lift their arse bar to fart

    all that said, i do think that the only thing that the government can do is large scale capital intervention- building huge amounts of homes to standard, well serviced by public transport.

    i dont agree, from the above professional experience and through lived experience, that mixed housing is any ideal to aim for.

    /Snip/

    why this should be in city centre locations is beyond me. when somebody contributes nothing to the state, they shouldnt be first in any priority queues.

    housing for people who are working but at a lower income, no problem having that in mixed areas, but either the qualifying eligibility bands for this should be relaxed hugely or the government should be providing local authority mortgages or a deposit guarantee.

    as pointed out above, the amount it would cost to service a bond raised for the above purpose is well within budget when set against the money it takes to provide rented/emergency accommodation as is.

    /Snip/

    building large amounts of housing would meet demand. house prices for existing stock would fall to sane levels. thats another huge tranche of votes ****ed- probably half the country own property and see it as their right to make a killing on it once they have the mortgage paid, or sell up, or rent it out and move to benidorm- whatever.

    /Snip/.

    the irish will take three generations to start to see housing as a service and not an investment. its probably due to what the brits done us us, i dunno.

    the underlying causes of our current situation are intimately tied at each level of our society to the type of callow fecklessness and indigence, greed and mendacity, cute-hoorism and short-termism that defines us as a nation.

    tis our land, tadhg. tis our land.

    1. eradicate the idea of a forever home from social housing. its thatcherite, toxic and counterproductive
    2. eradicate the hope-for-the-best-in-people ideolism of mixed housing. social housing shouldnt be the match of what people work hard to get and shouldnt be in better locations than what working families can afford.
    3. destroy the concept of property as a retirement investment. huge non-occupancy taxes. cripple land bankers so that their grandchildren wince. income from non-primary residence taxed at double the current rate. have some extra money? want a return on it? go talk to geico, we have a property crisis here and your demand isnt welcome.
    4. rigid enforcement of building and planning standards, but the latter to be reworked totally to eradicate the ability of 'concerned citizens', or groups such as an taisce, to object or block to anything that has passed those standards. double the height of the dublin skyline.

    now, who wants to see the majority of the above happen? very few people, in reality.

    fixing housing would break the country. thats why it wont happen.

    Top Post.

    What do you make of today's news ?

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/war-of-words-over-funds-threatening-to-derail-massive-housing-project-38701180.html
    The mix of residents will be 50pc private owners, 30pc in social housing and 20pc in affordable housing.

    How,in your opinion,would a project such as O'Devaney work out ?


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #93
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,282 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    Half of council tenants are in arrears and only now is dublin city evicting its first person for rent arrears https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/first-dublin-city-council-social-housing-tenant-to-be-evicted-for-rent-arrears-1.4085923?mode=amp

    Truly shocking and explains a lot of reluctance to build social housing.


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    #94
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    Half of council tenants are in arrears and only now is dublin city evicting its first person for rent arrears https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/first-dublin-city-council-social-housing-tenant-to-be-evicted-for-rent-arrears-1.4085923?mode=amp

    Truly shocking and explains a lot of reluctance to build social housing.
    That not all down to the tenants TBF. Councils are notoriously poor at collecting any money owed. Keegan should be focusing attention on reducing that then complaining about the government. The build problem is how many are being delivered at present and the non-building for about five years to 2015. Next year and 2021 are apparently supposed to produce a whole lot more. As an ongoing story, the length of a build cycle works very well for advocacy groups. Not enough houses now is inaction, a flood of them in the next few years will be down to advocacy.


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    #95
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    is_that_so wrote: »
    That not all down to the tenants TBF. Councils are notoriously poor at collecting any money owed. The build problem is how many are being delivered at present and the non-building for about five years to 2015. Next year and 2021 are apparently supposed to produce a whole lot more. As an ongoing story, the length of a build cycle works very well for advocacy groups. Not enough houses now is inaction, a flood of them in the next few years will be down to advocacy.

    it is all down to the tenants fyi


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    #96
    Bigmac1euro
    Registered Users Posts: 1,457 ✭✭✭Bigmac1euro


    banie01 wrote: »
    Wikipedia isn't a reliable source.
    I will offer it the credit however of highlighting the issue regarding the comparability of homeless statistics in its 2nd paragraph on the subject



    That you seem unable to actively research a foundation of your point.

    You have made claims regarding comparable homeless figures.
    It has been explained to you at length, that there aren't any.

    You have presented a thesis, with no foundation other than your limited observation.
    You provided wiki numbers, as your basis.
    Those numbers are academically worthless, I don't need to rebut an argument when you haven't presented any evidence.

    This is your thesis, you need to present the evidence to support it


    So here’s a small example from Germany,
    According to Wikipedia the Germans don’t actually know how many rough sleepers they have.

    But looking at the next page down it seems very similar to Ireland

    https://www.quora.com/How-does-Germany-deal-with-the-homeless-and-the-poor

    If you look at the replies you actually have someone who studied this say, “the number of homelessness has doubled in recent years according to research but very little actually live on the streets”

    People here quoted 7000 rough sleepers in Berlin where in this article says there’s only actually 2000


    It’s sounds very very very like Ireland.
    Which is exactly what I was pointing out to begin with.

    It seems other European cities don’t really know how many rough sleepers they have. Much like ourselves.
    The problem is which countries are worse in terms of affordability, and to me I judge this by professionals and college students going to food banks at night and rent being totally unaffordable for a single person.
    Even to live in a 1 bed apartment.


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    #97
    RacoonQueen
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 20,364 Mod ✭✭✭✭RacoonQueen


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    Half of council tenants are in arrears and only now is dublin city evicting its first person for rent arrears https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/first-dublin-city-council-social-housing-tenant-to-be-evicted-for-rent-arrears-1.4085923?mode=amp

    Truly shocking and explains a lot of reluctance to build social housing.


    Any figures anywhere I wonder on what the average rent is of a Dublin City council tenant?

    is_that_so wrote: »
    That not all down to the tenants TBF. Councils are notoriously poor at collecting any money owed.


    Of course it is all down to the tenants. If I don't pay my rent, it is not my landlords fault.


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    #98
    kildare lad
    Registered Users Posts: 2,010 ✭✭✭kildare lad


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    Half of council tenants are in arrears and only now is dublin city evicting its first person for rent arrears https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/first-dublin-city-council-social-housing-tenant-to-be-evicted-for-rent-arrears-1.4085923?mode=amp

    Truly shocking and explains a lot of reluctance to build social housing.

    You can bet they all have iPhones , flat screen tellies and money to go out drinking at the weekend tho.


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    #99
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Deleted User wrote: »
    it is all down to the tenants fyi
    A lot of it is but councils are not good at collecting money. This is why the LPT came to be collected by Revenue. My local one commonly has up to 30% of business rates uncollected at the end of each year.


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    #100
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,876 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Eric Cartman wrote: »

    Truly shocking and explains a lot of reluctance to build social housing.

    ...and nothing to do with market uncertainty, the cost of building, the lack of government ability to build houses, difficulties in getting access to credit, reluctance of governments to borrow, etc etc etc


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    #101
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    RacoonQueen wrote: »
    Any figures anywhere I wonder on what the average rent is of a Dublin City council tenant?





    Of course it is all down to the tenants. If I don't pay my rent, it is not my landlords fault.
    That's private sector thinking! :D Not if the landlord is not encouraging you to pay. Remember we only got to 60%-70% compliance with the water charges. With that amount of money outstanding they clearly don't have very much in the way of procedures to recoup it.


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    #102
    kildare lad
    Registered Users Posts: 2,010 ✭✭✭kildare lad


    RacoonQueen wrote: »
    Any figures anywhere I wonder on what the average rent is of a Dublin City council tenant?





    Of course it is all down to the tenants. If I don't pay my rent, it is not my landlords fault.

    I used to work with a fella was paying 90 euro a week , he lived in a house about a 10 min walk from O Connell street .


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    #103
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 18,961 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Bigmac1euro wrote: »
    If you look at the replies you actually have someone who studied this say, “the number of homelessness has doubled in recent years according to research but very little actually live on the streets”

    People here quoted 7000 rough sleepers in Berlin where in this article says there’s only actually 2000

    How is this data even gathered? When does a "rough sleeper" become a rough sleeper? When they're 7 nights on the street? Or when they're 4 nights on the street? Or 2?

    Not every homeless person is on the street every night of the week. But just because they can get a space in a hostel or a shelter sometimes, doesn't make them any less homeless.


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    #104
    banie01
    Registered Users Posts: 16,524 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    Bigmac1euro wrote: »
    So here’s a small example from Germany,
    According to Wikipedia the Germans don’t actually know how many rough sleepers they have.

    But looking at the next page down it seems very similar to Ireland

    https://www.quora.com/How-does-Germany-deal-with-the-homeless-and-the-poor

    .

    So you have gone from using a Wikipedia article that at least acknowledges it's systematic and comparative shortcomings?

    To using Quora?
    A website that is an ask the audience website comparable to yahoo answers, to defend the feeling that walking past a busy food bank give you...?

    Your feelings (Even if you are a Jedi) are unfortunately not a statistically valid comparator.
    However rather than rip on you for that, I would ask you this?

    Why do you think what should be a comparatively simple to count number is so difficult to nail down?
    Why is it so difficult to find a number?
    Why do you think that might be?


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    #105
    Wheety
    Registered Users Posts: 5,510 ✭✭✭Wheety


    Someone I know liked this post (I know)
    QXH3E0L.jpg

    One of the comments
    39sy1il.jpg

    Parasites?
    88aa5a9708fe10faa3529b8420fc07aa.png


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    #106
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    Top Post.

    What do you make of today's news ?

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/war-of-words-over-funds-threatening-to-derail-massive-housing-project-38701180.html



    How,in your opinion,would a project such as O'Devaney work out ?


    imo and ime, mixing social housing with private is an idealogically-driven solution to a range of problems that weren't ever caused by ghettoisation.

    taking aside the typical approach of never laying any responsibility on the tenants for ASB, or poor maintenance of property, or remaining in a mutigenerationally unemployed state, it points at a failure of policing and housing enforcement and claims that these issues would magically be solved were the problems spread out. that hasnt worked except that you can no longer point at a black spot where its all concentrated, but having solved that the theorists declare it a success.

    it doesnt tend to work out very well for the people who pay for the housing in the mixed development.

    its not going to shock anyone to hear that isolation of the behaviourally challenged families is the only way to prevent them impacting on the rights of others to peaceful occupancy of their own homes.

    if you have a good record of payment and behaviour while on the housing list or any of the various interim schemes, then you should be able to rent social housing in a mixed development. it would be utterly unfair on those that dont ruin the whole concept to lump them in with the minority, but that minority is sizeable, deserves the rep it gets and has to be dealt with completely differently than mere "needs a hand with the rent"

    i think we had close to 400 tenants in mixed developments by the time i left the housing gig, and id say 90% of those families never gave any trouble and were very decent. the 10% should have gotten one strike each and then been sent back to their folks with a "do not return" label.

    you'd very quickly remove many from the list, and either through that or by the people in question sitting up and taking note, youd improve the name of social housing.

    so o'devaney could work, if the will was there to deal with the gurriers and chancers.

    ah but we love the gurriers and chancers. so it wont work, and the loudest voices will be the ones clamouring from a distance for the rights of the very people making **** of it for everyone else


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    #107
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,282 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    RacoonQueen wrote: »
    Any figures anywhere I wonder on what the average rent is of a Dublin City council tenant?





    Of course it is all down to the tenants. If I don't pay my rent, it is not my landlords fault.

    Well considering social housing is for those on under 50k and its capped at 15% income, 625 a month is the most any one household could be paying , but in reality theres more people on the 30 a week minimum than the 625 a month maximum.

    Even at that, if I had a whole property for 625 a month in dublin you can het your hole i wouldnt dare be late with that rent. An absolute steal


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    #108
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 38,975 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    twowheelsonly wrote: »
    Well the figure comes from Dublin City Councils own reports (DHPCLG / Dublin City Council Protocol Agreement - Financial Report 2016, Year ending 31 December 2016) so I'd have no reason to doubt it. :confused:
    We do not spend "€96,254,326 million"!!!


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    #109
    Bigmac1euro
    Registered Users Posts: 1,457 ✭✭✭Bigmac1euro


    banie01 wrote: »
    So you have gone from using a Wikipedia article that at least acknowledges it's systematic and comparative shortcomings?

    To using Quora?
    A website that is an ask the audience website comparable to yahoo answers, to defend the feeling that walking past a busy food bank give you...?

    Your feelings (Even if you are a Jedi) are unfortunately not a statistically valid comparator.
    However rather than rip on you for that, I would ask you this?

    Why do you think what should be a comparatively simple to count number is so difficult to nail down?
    Why is it so difficult to find a number?
    Why do you think that might be?

    You’re the one who claims to know it all. Why don’t you start throwing out some answers ?
    At least I attempt to back up my point. Unlike yourself. On that ivory tower of yours.
    The reason countries can’t gauge the numbers of rough sleepers I would imagine is because it’s constantly changing week in week out.
    Claiming that we aren't nearly as bad as most countries and that makes this ok makes your arguments absolutely pointless. You’re wasting your time even posting if you can’t even attempt to back up anything you’re saying.

    What does it matter if I used a website like quora ?
    You are just trying to poke holes through anything that’s put in front of you and won’t actually consider that maybe the homeless problem is bad and just as bad as other countries If not worse than a lot you originally said werent.

    Then you claim our criteria is different
    You’ve nothing to back it up.

    Then you claim all the websites aren’t reliable where people are giving what seem like fairly knowledgable answers.

    It’s laughable that you’ve changed the topic around totally to try and suit what your saying. It’s actually sad.


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    #110
    banie01
    Registered Users Posts: 16,524 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    Bigmac1euro wrote: »
    You’re the one who claims to know it all. Why don’t you start throwing out some answers ?
    At least I attempt to back up my point. Unlike yourself. On that ivory tower of yours.
    The reason countries can’t gauge the numbers of rough sleepers I would imagine is because it’s constantly changing week in week out.
    Claiming that we aren't nearly as bad as most countries and that makes this ok makes your arguments absolutely pointless. You’re wasting your time even posting if you can’t even attempt to back up anything you’re saying.

    What does it matter if I used a website like quora ?
    You are just trying to poke holes through anything that’s put in front of you and won’t actually consider that maybe the homeless problem is bad and just as bad as other countries If not worse than a lot you originally said werent.

    Then you claim our criteria is different
    You’ve nothing to back it up.

    Then you claim all the websites aren’t reliable where people are giving what seem like fairly knowledgable answers.

    It’s laughable that you’ve changed the topic around totally to try and suit what your saying. It’s actually sad.

    Do you understand how actual grown up debate functions?

    It's not taking guesses and presenting the 1st Google hit that suits your thesis as "evidence".

    It's presenting actual evidence, I'm not even looking for peer reviewed evidence from you.
    Just some inkling of a notion that you can grasp why the numbers you are presenting may be wrong.

    This is your rodeo, your thread and your thesis.
    You have not presented a single internationally accepted number, its fairly clear from your reliance on Wikipedia and Quora that you don't have a clue how to research the number or present any evidence to support your thesis other than your feeling.
    You have presented nothing for me to disprove other than sources that a primary school teacher would laugh out of a classroom.

    There are many ways of arriving at a number of rough sleepers in particular, that could be accepted as credible.
    Be it moving average, collation of shelter beds used and rough sleeper census but none of those are being used to actually show any approximation of the number.

    Earlier in the thread I went so far as telling you how you might learn the way different countries count their number, you decided to use a child's homework site.

    There is no merit or even honesty in your approach to discerning an actual approximation of the number.
    It seems you'd rather be seen to wail about the injustice of homelessness, than actually make an effort to learn the sources of the data that can and should shape the policy around Ireland eliminating this issue.

    If you can't grasp the veracity of the numbers underpinning your thesis or support their source and method, we don't really have a basis to begin a discussion from.


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    #111
    _Brian
    Registered Users Posts: 18,494 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    Ireland’s “entitlement to free stuff” crisis is way bigger than its homelessness crisis.

    We’re into a viscous cycle not as the feeling entitled brigade have sufficient numbers that we have politicians who pander to their needs, promoting being entitled to everything free as a decent lifestyle choice and so more and more choose it, giving said politicians a bigger voting base supporting them.

    We can’t just keep giving out free or dirt cheap housing to everyone who classifies themselves as homeless. That’s banana republic stuff as someone has to pay for these houses with more and more taxation.

    I was in doctors maybe two years ago and two people were talking across the waiting room to each other.

    Are you still living in same house?
    Yea, it’s basically free so we’d be mad to move.
    Any other news?
    No, we were in Spain last week.
    What’s x doing with himself?
    He’s working away for cash, it’s handy as we keep entitlements
    Dead right, any other plans?
    Yea we’ll get away for two weeks in the summer.


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    #112
    Bigmac1euro
    Registered Users Posts: 1,457 ✭✭✭Bigmac1euro


    banie01 wrote: »
    Do you understand how actual grown up debate functions?

    It's not taking guesses and presenting the 1st Google hit that suits your thesis as "evidence".

    It's presenting actual evidence, I'm not even looking for peer reviewed evidence from you.
    Just some inkling of a notion that you can grasp why the numbers you are presenting may be wrong.

    This is your rodeo, your thread and your thesis.
    You have not presented a single internationally accepted number, its fairly clear from your reliance on Wikipedia and Quora that you don't have a clue how to research the number or present any evidence to support your thesis other than your feeling.
    You have presented nothing for me to disprove other than sources that a primary school teacher would laugh out of a classroom.

    There are many ways of arriving at a number of rough sleepers in particular, that could be accepted as credible.
    Be it moving average, collation of shelter beds used and rough sleeper census but none of those are being used to actually show any approximation of the number.

    Earlier in the thread I went so far as telling you how you might learn the way different countries count their number, you decided to use a child's homework site.

    There is no merit or even honesty in your approach to discerning an actual approximation of the number.
    It seems you'd rather be seen to wail about the injustice of homelessness, than actually make an effort to learn the sources of the data that can and should shape the policy around Ireland eliminating this issue.

    If you can't grasp the veracity of the numbers underpinning your thesis or support their source and method, we don't really have a basis to begin a discussion from.

    Broken record.
    Back up your point, you can do it I believe in you.
    Show us that we measure homelessness different to most other countries in the world.


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    #113
    banie01
    Registered Users Posts: 16,524 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    Bigmac1euro wrote: »
    Broken record.
    Back up your point, you can do it I believe in you.
    Show us that we measure homelessness different to most other countries in the world.

    Your the one who's entire thesis is based on a comparison of international numbers, your position is predicated on the number being counted the same way across the board.

    It's not down to me to prove that it isn't, its up to you to demonstrate that it is.
    However given that as previously pointed out to you, you completely ignored that warning as listed in the 1st section of the Wikipedia article you were happy to pull your numbers from...

    I'll give you a little help, attached is a short OECD document outlining why international comparators are troublesome at the very least.
    Funnily enough that document is the 3rd article cited on the wiki page you used.
    Your research didn't even go 1 link deep?

    Tony EH has already made reference to the effort by ETHOS to agree a common count standard.

    You are the one claiming their is comparable and even worse numbers of homeless in Ireland than elsewhere.
    It falls on you to prove the numbers are comparable and statistically relevant, its the basis of your point...

    You want to learn something about homeless numbers, there are plenty of resources out their from sociological journals to Government publications and charity reports.
    Read them, synthesize a cogent number and let's see how it stands up.

    But when someone ignores the caveat in the 1st paragraph of the web page the seek to rely on for their number?
    It would tend to call into question their eye for detail.


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    #114
    kenmm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,698 ✭✭✭kenmm


    dartboardio wrote: »
    Really?

    This is not a made up idea, it's very real, and consists of thousands of people across Ireland.

    I have read hundreds of stories on that end homelessness Facebook group of women refusing offers from the council because the area in Dublin didn't suit, or some other stupid reason that's no excuse to decline,

    I actually seen a woman refusing to go into the homeless hub, after spending three years in a hotel with her kids. The homeless hub is apparently great compared to the hotels and people wait years to be offered this. She declined as she didn't wanna uproot the kids again. But continues to give out that she is homeless

    Basically it is very hard to feel sorry for the not so genuine ones, that refuse point blank to ever work for the roof over their head, cry that they have been on the housing list since they turned 18, and do nothing physically to get out of the situation they're in, only complain about the government on facebook as if its their job to home them.


    Not denying there arent chancers, I was curious about actual numbers. There is already lots of anecdotal evidence, I was trying to cut through that.


    Hers a thought tho - With such systematic generational abuse of the system by people who join the list at 18 and do nothing to change their situation - who is going to show these kids the "correct" way?

    Talk about a fkd up broken system that we are part of..


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    #115
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,282 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    kenmm wrote: »
    Not denying there arent chancers, I was curious about actual numbers. There is already lots of anecdotal evidence, I was trying to cut through that.


    Hers a thought tho - With such systematic generational abuse of the system by people who join the list at 18 and do nothing to change their situation - who is going to show these kids the "correct" way?

    Talk about a fkd up broken system that we are part of..
    Nobody, and the new irish are learning the ways too, our only hope on this front is to change the system so its not a lifestyle available to new entrants.

    We’ve demonised smoking, have active campaigns against alcohol, drug and gambling abuse. Its time to go hard on welfare abuse.


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    #116
    kenmm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,698 ✭✭✭kenmm


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    Nobody, and the new irish are learning the ways too, our only hope on this front is to change the system so its not a lifestyle available to new entrants.

    We’ve demonised smoking, have active campaigns against alcohol, drug and gambling abuse. Its time to go hard on welfare abuse.

    Would still be interested to know if anyone can find numbers for welfare abuse. Its obviously not as high as other abuses mentioned like smoking or alcohol abuse. Until we know the size of the problem it will continue to serve as a distraction to more troubling issues the country faces - including other aspects of homelessness.

    Often every thread on the general subject of poverty and homelessness goes this way on boards.


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    #117
    dartboardio
    Registered Users Posts: 2,436 ✭✭✭dartboardio


    kenmm wrote: »
    Not denying there arent chancers, I was curious about actual numbers. There is already lots of anecdotal evidence, I was trying to cut through that.


    Hers a thought tho - With such systematic generational abuse of the system by people who join the list at 18 and do nothing to change their situation - who is going to show these kids the "correct" way?

    Talk about a fkd up broken system that we are part of..

    I know, it truly is!

    What makes it worse is that the sponge types genuinely think they are the victim... And that they deserve all these handouts with no questions asked.


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    #118
    kenmm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,698 ✭✭✭kenmm


    Many, many things make it worse. Stereotyping and exaggerating about a very small subset of society is another.

    Its a complicated problem and people are always tempted to simplify it as much as possible.


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    #119
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Bigmac1euro wrote: »
    Just thought I’d share this, it has 60k members [...]
    Would be interesting to learn how many of those accounts are fake or duplicate. At the moment, it seems around 15% of facebook accounts are known to be fake and a quick look through the page indicates quite a few accounts which seem to originate outside of Ireland, mainly the UK.


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    #120
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    kenmm wrote: »
    Many, many things make it worse. Stereotyping and exaggerating about a very small subset of society is another.

    Its a complicated problem and people are always tempted to simplify it as much as possible.


    whitewashing is also of no use, however.

    when society's resources are being expended on people who make a conscious decision to not pull the weight they should/could, that cannot and should not be handwaved away.

    my experience across several hundred cases, as ive stated, is that the majority of people on the housing list *as of the last boom* were not troublemakers, very decent people that you'd be happy to have live next door to you.

    but at my own estimate, four from five of them were on the housing list as a lifestyle choice as opposed to it being a case of need or have no alternatives.

    and again, if you arent drawing a clear distinction between rough sleepers, or at risk of same, and the 10000 "homeless" then you are indeed going to struggle to find any clear solutions, because they are completely different problems.

    the former set is a health issue. the latter need their entitlements and expectations shaken badly.


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    #121
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    kenmm wrote: »
    Would still be interested to know if anyone can find numbers for welfare abuse. Its obviously not as high as other abuses mentioned like smoking or alcohol abuse. Until we know the size of the problem it will continue to serve as a distraction to more troubling issues the country faces - including other aspects of homelessness.

    Often every thread on the general subject of poverty and homelessness goes this way on boards.
    The numbers aren't really known until Welfare investigate. I regularly see fraud figures of €500m bandied about. Welfare are always investigating.


    https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2019/0916/1076240-fraud-welfare/


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