End to homelessness group on Facebook

kildare lad · 18-11-2019 10:13am

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Any figures anywhere I wonder on what the average rent is of a Dublin City council tenant?

Of course it is all down to the tenants. If I don't pay my rent, it is not my landlords fault.

I used to work with a fella was paying 90 euro a week , he lived in a house about a 10 min walk from O Connell street .

Tony EH · 18-11-2019 10:13am

Bigmac1euro wrote: »

If you look at the replies you actually have someone who studied this say, “the number of homelessness has doubled in recent years according to research but very little actually live on the streets”

People here quoted 7000 rough sleepers in Berlin where in this article says there’s only actually 2000

How is this data even gathered? When does a "rough sleeper" become a rough sleeper? When they're 7 nights on the street? Or when they're 4 nights on the street? Or 2?

Not every homeless person is on the street every night of the week. But just because they can get a space in a hostel or a shelter sometimes, doesn't make them any less homeless.

banie01 · 18-11-2019 10:19am

Bigmac1euro wrote: »

So here’s a small example from Germany,
According to Wikipedia the Germans don’t actually know how many rough sleepers they have.

But looking at the next page down it seems very similar to Ireland

https://www.quora.com/How-does-Germany-deal-with-the-homeless-and-the-poor

.

So you have gone from using a Wikipedia article that at least acknowledges it's systematic and comparative shortcomings?

To using Quora?
A website that is an ask the audience website comparable to yahoo answers, to defend the feeling that walking past a busy food bank give you...?

Your feelings (Even if you are a Jedi) are unfortunately not a statistically valid comparator.
However rather than rip on you for that, I would ask you this?

Why do you think what should be a comparatively simple to count number is so difficult to nail down?
Why is it so difficult to find a number?
Why do you think that might be?

Wheety · 18-11-2019 10:22am

Someone I know liked this post (I know)

One of the comments

Parasites?

18-11-2019 10:43am

AlekSmart wrote: »

Top Post.

What do you make of today's news ?

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/war-of-words-over-funds-threatening-to-derail-massive-housing-project-38701180.html

How,in your opinion,would a project such as O'Devaney work out ?

imo and ime, mixing social housing with private is an idealogically-driven solution to a range of problems that weren't ever caused by ghettoisation.

taking aside the typical approach of never laying any responsibility on the tenants for ASB, or poor maintenance of property, or remaining in a mutigenerationally unemployed state, it points at a failure of policing and housing enforcement and claims that these issues would magically be solved were the problems spread out. that hasnt worked except that you can no longer point at a black spot where its all concentrated, but having solved that the theorists declare it a success.

it doesnt tend to work out very well for the people who pay for the housing in the mixed development.

its not going to shock anyone to hear that isolation of the behaviourally challenged families is the only way to prevent them impacting on the rights of others to peaceful occupancy of their own homes.

if you have a good record of payment and behaviour while on the housing list or any of the various interim schemes, then you should be able to rent social housing in a mixed development. it would be utterly unfair on those that dont ruin the whole concept to lump them in with the minority, but that minority is sizeable, deserves the rep it gets and has to be dealt with completely differently than mere "needs a hand with the rent"

i think we had close to 400 tenants in mixed developments by the time i left the housing gig, and id say 90% of those families never gave any trouble and were very decent. the 10% should have gotten one strike each and then been sent back to their folks with a "do not return" label.

you'd very quickly remove many from the list, and either through that or by the people in question sitting up and taking note, youd improve the name of social housing.

so o'devaney could work, if the will was there to deal with the gurriers and chancers.

ah but we love the gurriers and chancers. so it wont work, and the loudest voices will be the ones clamouring from a distance for the rights of the very people making **** of it for everyone else

Eric Cartman · 18-11-2019 10:54am

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Any figures anywhere I wonder on what the average rent is of a Dublin City council tenant?

Of course it is all down to the tenants. If I don't pay my rent, it is not my landlords fault.

Well considering social housing is for those on under 50k and its capped at 15% income, 625 a month is the most any one household could be paying , but in reality theres more people on the 30 a week minimum than the 625 a month maximum.

Even at that, if I had a whole property for 625 a month in dublin you can het your hole i wouldnt dare be late with that rent. An absolute steal

Seth Brundle · 18-11-2019 11:03am

twowheelsonly wrote: »

Well the figure comes from Dublin City Councils own reports (DHPCLG / Dublin City Council Protocol Agreement - Financial Report 2016, Year ending 31 December 2016) so I'd have no reason to doubt it.

We do not spend "€96,254,326 million"!!!

Bigmac1euro · 18-11-2019 11:24am

banie01 wrote: »

So you have gone from using a Wikipedia article that at least acknowledges it's systematic and comparative shortcomings?

To using Quora?
A website that is an ask the audience website comparable to yahoo answers, to defend the feeling that walking past a busy food bank give you...?

Your feelings (Even if you are a Jedi) are unfortunately not a statistically valid comparator.
However rather than rip on you for that, I would ask you this?

Why do you think what should be a comparatively simple to count number is so difficult to nail down?
Why is it so difficult to find a number?
Why do you think that might be?

You’re the one who claims to know it all. Why don’t you start throwing out some answers ?
At least I attempt to back up my point. Unlike yourself. On that ivory tower of yours.
The reason countries can’t gauge the numbers of rough sleepers I would imagine is because it’s constantly changing week in week out.
Claiming that we aren't nearly as bad as most countries and that makes this ok makes your arguments absolutely pointless. You’re wasting your time even posting if you can’t even attempt to back up anything you’re saying.

What does it matter if I used a website like quora ?
You are just trying to poke holes through anything that’s put in front of you and won’t actually consider that maybe the homeless problem is bad and just as bad as other countries If not worse than a lot you originally said werent.

Then you claim our criteria is different
You’ve nothing to back it up.

Then you claim all the websites aren’t reliable where people are giving what seem like fairly knowledgable answers.

It’s laughable that you’ve changed the topic around totally to try and suit what your saying. It’s actually sad.

banie01 · 18-11-2019 12:07pm

Bigmac1euro wrote: »

You’re the one who claims to know it all. Why don’t you start throwing out some answers ?
At least I attempt to back up my point. Unlike yourself. On that ivory tower of yours.
The reason countries can’t gauge the numbers of rough sleepers I would imagine is because it’s constantly changing week in week out.
Claiming that we aren't nearly as bad as most countries and that makes this ok makes your arguments absolutely pointless. You’re wasting your time even posting if you can’t even attempt to back up anything you’re saying.

What does it matter if I used a website like quora ?
You are just trying to poke holes through anything that’s put in front of you and won’t actually consider that maybe the homeless problem is bad and just as bad as other countries If not worse than a lot you originally said werent.

Then you claim our criteria is different
You’ve nothing to back it up.

Then you claim all the websites aren’t reliable where people are giving what seem like fairly knowledgable answers.

It’s laughable that you’ve changed the topic around totally to try and suit what your saying. It’s actually sad.

Do you understand how actual grown up debate functions?

It's not taking guesses and presenting the 1st Google hit that suits your thesis as "evidence".

It's presenting actual evidence, I'm not even looking for peer reviewed evidence from you.
Just some inkling of a notion that you can grasp why the numbers you are presenting may be wrong.

This is your rodeo, your thread and your thesis.
You have not presented a single internationally accepted number, its fairly clear from your reliance on Wikipedia and Quora that you don't have a clue how to research the number or present any evidence to support your thesis other than your feeling.
You have presented nothing for me to disprove other than sources that a primary school teacher would laugh out of a classroom.

There are many ways of arriving at a number of rough sleepers in particular, that could be accepted as credible.
Be it moving average, collation of shelter beds used and rough sleeper census but none of those are being used to actually show any approximation of the number.

Earlier in the thread I went so far as telling you how you might learn the way different countries count their number, you decided to use a child's homework site.

There is no merit or even honesty in your approach to discerning an actual approximation of the number.
It seems you'd rather be seen to wail about the injustice of homelessness, than actually make an effort to learn the sources of the data that can and should shape the policy around Ireland eliminating this issue.

If you can't grasp the veracity of the numbers underpinning your thesis or support their source and method, we don't really have a basis to begin a discussion from.

_Brian · 18-11-2019 12:24pm

Ireland’s “entitlement to free stuff” crisis is way bigger than its homelessness crisis.

We’re into a viscous cycle not as the feeling entitled brigade have sufficient numbers that we have politicians who pander to their needs, promoting being entitled to everything free as a decent lifestyle choice and so more and more choose it, giving said politicians a bigger voting base supporting them.

We can’t just keep giving out free or dirt cheap housing to everyone who classifies themselves as homeless. That’s banana republic stuff as someone has to pay for these houses with more and more taxation.

I was in doctors maybe two years ago and two people were talking across the waiting room to each other.

Are you still living in same house?
Yea, it’s basically free so we’d be mad to move.
Any other news?
No, we were in Spain last week.
What’s x doing with himself?
He’s working away for cash, it’s handy as we keep entitlements
Dead right, any other plans?
Yea we’ll get away for two weeks in the summer.

Bigmac1euro · 18-11-2019 12:37pm

banie01 wrote: »

Do you understand how actual grown up debate functions?

It's not taking guesses and presenting the 1st Google hit that suits your thesis as "evidence".

It's presenting actual evidence, I'm not even looking for peer reviewed evidence from you.
Just some inkling of a notion that you can grasp why the numbers you are presenting may be wrong.

This is your rodeo, your thread and your thesis.
You have not presented a single internationally accepted number, its fairly clear from your reliance on Wikipedia and Quora that you don't have a clue how to research the number or present any evidence to support your thesis other than your feeling.
You have presented nothing for me to disprove other than sources that a primary school teacher would laugh out of a classroom.

There are many ways of arriving at a number of rough sleepers in particular, that could be accepted as credible.
Be it moving average, collation of shelter beds used and rough sleeper census but none of those are being used to actually show any approximation of the number.

Earlier in the thread I went so far as telling you how you might learn the way different countries count their number, you decided to use a child's homework site.

There is no merit or even honesty in your approach to discerning an actual approximation of the number.
It seems you'd rather be seen to wail about the injustice of homelessness, than actually make an effort to learn the sources of the data that can and should shape the policy around Ireland eliminating this issue.

If you can't grasp the veracity of the numbers underpinning your thesis or support their source and method, we don't really have a basis to begin a discussion from.

Broken record.
Back up your point, you can do it I believe in you.
Show us that we measure homelessness different to most other countries in the world.

banie01 · 18-11-2019 12:51pm

Bigmac1euro wrote: »

Broken record.
Back up your point, you can do it I believe in you.
Show us that we measure homelessness different to most other countries in the world.

Your the one who's entire thesis is based on a comparison of international numbers, your position is predicated on the number being counted the same way across the board.

It's not down to me to prove that it isn't, its up to you to demonstrate that it is.
However given that as previously pointed out to you, you completely ignored that warning as listed in the 1st section of the Wikipedia article you were happy to pull your numbers from...

I'll give you a little help, attached is a short OECD document outlining why international comparators are troublesome at the very least.
Funnily enough that document is the 3rd article cited on the wiki page you used.
Your research didn't even go 1 link deep?

Tony EH has already made reference to the effort by ETHOS to agree a common count standard.

You are the one claiming their is comparable and even worse numbers of homeless in Ireland than elsewhere.
It falls on you to prove the numbers are comparable and statistically relevant, its the basis of your point...

You want to learn something about homeless numbers, there are plenty of resources out their from sociological journals to Government publications and charity reports.
Read them, synthesize a cogent number and let's see how it stands up.

But when someone ignores the caveat in the 1st paragraph of the web page the seek to rely on for their number?
It would tend to call into question their eye for detail.

kenmm · 18-11-2019 1:27pm

dartboardio wrote: »

Really?

This is not a made up idea, it's very real, and consists of thousands of people across Ireland.

I have read hundreds of stories on that end homelessness Facebook group of women refusing offers from the council because the area in Dublin didn't suit, or some other stupid reason that's no excuse to decline,

I actually seen a woman refusing to go into the homeless hub, after spending three years in a hotel with her kids. The homeless hub is apparently great compared to the hotels and people wait years to be offered this. She declined as she didn't wanna uproot the kids again. But continues to give out that she is homeless

Basically it is very hard to feel sorry for the not so genuine ones, that refuse point blank to ever work for the roof over their head, cry that they have been on the housing list since they turned 18, and do nothing physically to get out of the situation they're in, only complain about the government on facebook as if its their job to home them.

Not denying there arent chancers, I was curious about actual numbers. There is already lots of anecdotal evidence, I was trying to cut through that.

Hers a thought tho - With such systematic generational abuse of the system by people who join the list at 18 and do nothing to change their situation - who is going to show these kids the "correct" way?

Talk about a fkd up broken system that we are part of..

Eric Cartman · 18-11-2019 2:00pm

kenmm wrote: »

Not denying there arent chancers, I was curious about actual numbers. There is already lots of anecdotal evidence, I was trying to cut through that.

Hers a thought tho - With such systematic generational abuse of the system by people who join the list at 18 and do nothing to change their situation - who is going to show these kids the "correct" way?

Talk about a fkd up broken system that we are part of..

Nobody, and the new irish are learning the ways too, our only hope on this front is to change the system so its not a lifestyle available to new entrants.

We’ve demonised smoking, have active campaigns against alcohol, drug and gambling abuse. Its time to go hard on welfare abuse.

kenmm · 18-11-2019 2:10pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Nobody, and the new irish are learning the ways too, our only hope on this front is to change the system so its not a lifestyle available to new entrants.

We’ve demonised smoking, have active campaigns against alcohol, drug and gambling abuse. Its time to go hard on welfare abuse.

Would still be interested to know if anyone can find numbers for welfare abuse. Its obviously not as high as other abuses mentioned like smoking or alcohol abuse. Until we know the size of the problem it will continue to serve as a distraction to more troubling issues the country faces - including other aspects of homelessness.

Often every thread on the general subject of poverty and homelessness goes this way on boards.

dartboardio · 18-11-2019 2:10pm

kenmm wrote: »

Not denying there arent chancers, I was curious about actual numbers. There is already lots of anecdotal evidence, I was trying to cut through that.

Hers a thought tho - With such systematic generational abuse of the system by people who join the list at 18 and do nothing to change their situation - who is going to show these kids the "correct" way?

Talk about a fkd up broken system that we are part of..

I know, it truly is!

What makes it worse is that the sponge types genuinely think they are the victim... And that they deserve all these handouts with no questions asked.

kenmm · 18-11-2019 2:15pm

Many, many things make it worse. Stereotyping and exaggerating about a very small subset of society is another.

Its a complicated problem and people are always tempted to simplify it as much as possible.

robindch · 18-11-2019 3:11pm

Bigmac1euro wrote: »

Just thought I’d share this, it has 60k members [...]

Would be interesting to learn how many of those accounts are fake or duplicate. At the moment, it seems around 15% of facebook accounts are known to be fake and a quick look through the page indicates quite a few accounts which seem to originate outside of Ireland, mainly the UK.

18-11-2019 3:27pm

kenmm wrote: »

Many, many things make it worse. Stereotyping and exaggerating about a very small subset of society is another.

Its a complicated problem and people are always tempted to simplify it as much as possible.

whitewashing is also of no use, however.

when society's resources are being expended on people who make a conscious decision to not pull the weight they should/could, that cannot and should not be handwaved away.

my experience across several hundred cases, as ive stated, is that the majority of people on the housing list *as of the last boom* were not troublemakers, very decent people that you'd be happy to have live next door to you.

but at my own estimate, four from five of them were on the housing list as a lifestyle choice as opposed to it being a case of need or have no alternatives.

and again, if you arent drawing a clear distinction between rough sleepers, or at risk of same, and the 10000 "homeless" then you are indeed going to struggle to find any clear solutions, because they are completely different problems.

the former set is a health issue. the latter need their entitlements and expectations shaken badly.

is_that_so · 18-11-2019 5:29pm

kenmm wrote: »

Would still be interested to know if anyone can find numbers for welfare abuse. Its obviously not as high as other abuses mentioned like smoking or alcohol abuse. Until we know the size of the problem it will continue to serve as a distraction to more troubling issues the country faces - including other aspects of homelessness.

Often every thread on the general subject of poverty and homelessness goes this way on boards.

The numbers aren't really known until Welfare investigate. I regularly see fraud figures of €500m bandied about. Welfare are always investigating.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2019/0916/1076240-fraud-welfare/

kenmm · 18-11-2019 5:38pm

Deleted User wrote: »

whitewashing is also of no use, however.

Absolutely - hence wanting to know if there any reliable published sources of facts.

Stories about someone on the internet reading other stories on facebook doenst help.

kenmm · 18-11-2019 5:43pm

is_that_so wrote: »

The numbers aren't really known until Welfare investigate. I regularly see fraud figures of €500m bandied about. Welfare are always investigating.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2019/0916/1076240-fraud-welfare/

ye - I dont think there are any hard stats published- that 500mil covers a lot - including bogus self employment - class S directors (acting as employees) and other situations.

Only 95million on SW over payment, which is obviously not a small amount of money, but in the business of gov spending and as a % of all that social welfare covers isnt so much.

18-11-2019 5:47pm

kenmm wrote: »

Absolutely - hence wanting to know if there any reliable published sources of facts.

Stories about someone on the internet reading other stories on facebook doenst help.

no, its true

but you're also never going to get a study that cleanly enumerates the number of people:

- sleeping rough but really its mental health/drugs
- in emergency accommodation but would not be so if they didnt see a forever home at the end of it
- on a housing list but likewise as above
- in receipt of rent subsidies but working, or have undeclared income or partner
- in receipt of rent subsidies but well fit to work and earn if this was enforced

all of these are real and add significantly to the declaration of figures, making the problem very difficult to define and address.

and thats my experience as a not-totally unsympathetic frontline officer of several years.

if you are concerned about the overall issue, the above instances have to be addressed for any number of good reasons

if you are especially concerned about the genuine cases, then the above cases have to be addressed with all the more urgency, because they are the chancers obfuscating the issues and clogging the limited resources available

kenmm · 18-11-2019 5:56pm

Deleted User wrote: »

no, its true

but you're also never going to get a study that cleanly enumerates the number of people:

- sleeping rough but really its mental health/drugs
- in emergency accommodation but would not be so if they didnt see a forever home at the end of it
- on a housing list but likewise as above
- in receipt of rent subsidies but working, or have undeclared income or partner
- in receipt of rent subsidies but well fit to work and earn if this was enforced

all of these are real and add significantly to the declaration of figures, making the problem very difficult to define and address.

and thats my experience as a not-totally unsympathetic frontline officer of several years.

if you are concerned about the overall issue, the above instances have to be addressed for any number of good reasons

if you are especially concerned about the genuine cases, then the above cases have to be addressed with all the more urgency, because they are the chancers obfuscating the issues and clogging the limited resources available

ye - and I am just trying to work out what problems our society has.

It seems every boards thread on homelessness jumps right on (what I guess) are a minority of people living in emergency accommodating to somehow scam the system.
Of course there will always be a few a-holes with an over inflated sense of entitlement.. but there are still (surely) a majority of emergency accommodation individuals who are genuinely homeless, with all the effects that has on a persons health and well being.

kenmm · 18-11-2019 5:58pm

And lets face it - its Ireland we are talking about - there seems to be a level of p!ss taking and abuse of systems here that is more generally accepted than in other countries (and I mean this across the board, in all walks of life).

18-11-2019 6:04pm

Bigmac1euro wrote: »

Just thought I’d share this, it has 60k members and looks like lots of people are planning a march on the 5th of December. I think it’s about time people hit the streets. But I’m not sure how this problem is solved. This group appears to have gained momentum.
Thoughts ?

Link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/487072738687586/?ref=share

Also I’m in no way affiliated with organisers etc of this group and I’m a long time poster here but just thought I’d share as I joined the group and keep reading posts and it makes for pretty depressing reading how badly some are struggling.
It actually put me in bad humour this morning.

I see they are getting stick for saying that a girl passed out drunk is homeless!

dartboardio · 20-11-2019 11:39pm

Umm quick update.

On the Facebook group there are people sharing stories of being evicted, due to not paying rent etc fair enough.. Yet there are others egging on eachother, telling eachother 'don't dare move out it'll take years for the landlord to bring you to court' encouraging them to make the landlords life hell basically?

Illegally squatting, encouraging this behaviour. Absolutely crazy!

Bigmac1euro · 21-11-2019 12:12am

Had to leave that group... People haven’t got their priorities right. Hopefully a protest can push the government about less tax for LL’s and sticking a rent cap per square meter but it’s never going to happen. The group has been taken over by freegaff4lifers by the looks of it. Although some really really decent people still there bringing food to the homeless and people donating items. It is a positive group overall. I’m still stuck in the middle about the whole thing.

21-11-2019 1:08am

_Brian wrote: »

I was in doctors maybe two years ago and two people were talking across the waiting room to each other.

Are you still living in same house?
Yea, it’s basically free so we’d be mad to move.
Any other news?
No, we were in Spain last week.
What’s x doing with himself?
He’s working away for cash, it’s handy as we keep entitlements
Dead right, any other plans?
Yea we’ll get away for two weeks in the summer.

Is this verbatim, paraphrased or just made up?

Always Tired · 21-11-2019 2:38am

_Brian wrote: »

Ireland’s “entitlement to free stuff” crisis is way bigger than its homelessness crisis.

We’re into a viscous cycle not as the feeling entitled brigade have sufficient numbers that we have politicians who pander to their needs, promoting being entitled to everything free as a decent lifestyle choice and so more and more choose it, giving said politicians a bigger voting base supporting them.

We can’t just keep giving out free or dirt cheap housing to everyone who classifies themselves as homeless. That’s banana republic stuff as someone has to pay for these houses with more and more taxation.

I was in doctors maybe two years ago and two people were talking across the waiting room to each other.

Are you still living in same house?
Yea, it’s basically free so we’d be mad to move.
Any other news?
No, we were in Spain last week.
What’s x doing with himself?
He’s working away for cash, it’s handy as we keep entitlements
Dead right, any other plans?
Yea we’ll get away for two weeks in the summer.

Yeah that happened.

banie01 · 21-11-2019 10:02am

Bigmac1euro wrote: »

Had to leave that group... People haven’t got their priorities right. Hopefully a protest can push the government about less tax for LL’s and sticking a rent cap per square meter but it’s never going to happen. The group has been taken over by freegaff4lifers by the looks of it. Although some really really decent people still there bringing food to the homeless and people donating items. It is a positive group overall. I’m still stuck in the middle about the whole thing.

Welcome back

Any input on your new improved number after your extensive research? and it's validity as a point of comparison?

Can I hope for an acknowledgement of it actually being an issue?
Don't even want an apology

Bigmac1euro · 21-11-2019 6:33pm

banie01 wrote: »

Welcome back
Any input on your new improved number after your extensive research? and it's validity as a point of comparison?

Can I hope for an acknowledgement of it actually being an issue?
Don't even want an apology

An apology ? For what ?
What on earth are you smoking ?
Are you ok ?
How’s your thesis going ? Lol

I had to laugh when I read this desperate reply looking for a good oul argument. Keep trying though. Appreciate the laugh I’ve gotten from your posts so far Haha!

banie01 · 21-11-2019 6:41pm

Bigmac1euro wrote: »

An apology ? For what ?
What on earth are you smoking ?
Are you ok ?
How’s your thesis going ? Lol

I had to laugh when I read this desperate reply looking for a good oul argument. Keep trying though. Appreciate the laugh I’ve gotten from your posts so far Haha!

I'm not looking for an argument, you are the one who started the thread, spewed BS about numbers and disappeared when presented the proof of variance you asked for.

But you stay classy

VinLieger · 21-11-2019 8:43pm

Sounds like apollo house 2.0, no doubt brendan ogle is pushing the buttons for this somewhere just waiting to squirrel away whatever proceeds are gotten from this to help fund his next failed attempt at getting elected

Seth Brundle · 21-11-2019 9:56pm

VinLieger wrote: »

Sounds like apollo house 2.0, no doubt brendan ogle is pushing the buttons for this somewhere just waiting to squirrel away whatever proceeds are gotten from this to help fund his next failed attempt at getting elected

Was it ever revealed where the Apollo House money went?

Bigmac1euro · 21-11-2019 9:59pm

banie01 wrote: »

I'm not looking for an argument, you are the one who started the thread, spewed BS about numbers and disappeared when presented the proof of variance you asked for.

But you stay classy

Thanks for your terrible input to the conversation.
Numbers either you or I can prove, I won’t be spending time researching the figures either which aren’t easy to find. It’s done, let’s move on shall we.

banie01 · 21-11-2019 11:09pm

Bigmac1euro wrote: »

Thanks for your terrible input to the conversation.
Numbers either you or I can prove, I won’t be spending time researching the figures either which aren’t easy to find. It’s done, let’s move on shall we.

Terrible input? Care to point out what was so terrible about looking for you to clarify and support your claim?
You claimed numbers as accurate.
You presented nothing to support them other than your feelings and a couple of homework websites.

You were provided an OECD document outlining why the numbers you pulled from Wiki are unreliable.
A document that was referenced in the 1st paragraph of the Wiki page you used, yet you ignored it.

I don't need to "prove" a number, as I've made no argument based on any.
You however, have!

I have said you are relying on poor data and even provided you a starting point for looking for the right data and I've presented evidence illustrating that.
I don't expect you to hold your hands up to being wrong or not having a notion of how to research, support or defend your position but others reading the thread are welcome to their own conclusions.

For the sake of the thread however, I do feel it's important to be clear that your feelings, impressions and guesses are not substantiated by any actual evidence nor do you seem to have the inclination or the strength of conviction to research, support or present actual evidence for the numbers you claimed.

I'm quite happy to leave it there.

weldoninhio · 21-11-2019 11:58pm

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Was it ever revealed where the Apollo House money went?

I only asked him that yesterday.

Bigmac1euro · 22-11-2019 12:18am

banie01 wrote: »

Terrible input? Care to point out what was so terrible about looking for you to clarify and support your claim?
You claimed numbers as accurate.
You presented nothing to support them other than your feelings and a couple of homework websites.

You were provided an OECD document outlining why the numbers you pulled from Wiki are unreliable.
A document that was referenced in the 1st paragraph of the Wiki page you used, yet you ignored it.

I don't need to "prove" a number, as I've made no argument based on any.
You however, have!

I have said you are relying on poor data and even provided you a starting point for looking for the right data and I've presented evidence illustrating that.
I don't expect you to hold your hands up to being wrong or not having a notion of how to research, support or defend your position but others reading the thread are welcome to their own conclusions.

For the sake of the thread however, I do feel it's important to be clear that your feelings, impressions and guesses are not substantiated by any actual evidence nor do you seem to have the inclination or the strength of conviction to research, support or present actual evidence for the numbers you claimed.

I'm quite happy to leave it there.

You’d argue with the wall if you thought it would argue back lol

banie01 · 22-11-2019 10:22am

Bigmac1euro wrote: »

You’d argue with the wall if you thought it would argue back lol

Highlighting a lack of factual basis or substantive basis for a poor hypothesis isn't arguing.
It's debate, its healthy, it opens paths to new ideas, new understanding and even compromise when one has a fuller grasp of a problem.

VinLieger · 22-11-2019 10:38am

weldoninhio wrote: »

I only asked him that yesterday.

Fvcking LOL

The guy is scum

Eric Cartman · 22-11-2019 11:43am

weldoninhio wrote: »

I only asked him that yesterday.

‘Spent on great causes’
So funding his pr campaign then....

Niallof9 · 22-11-2019 11:48am

Bigmac1euro wrote: »

According to Wikipedia UK has double the amount of homeless as us and the US has quite a bit less than us.
Again this is nothing to go by. Why compare ourselves with other countries ? I mean that’s not addressing the issue.
The rental problem is out of control and this needs to be tackled head on. This is why your seeing homeless getting worse in recent times. We are feeling the effects of the unstable rental market imo.

wait what....

stuff like this helps nobody. Yes its getting worse. yes its more visible. But lumping it all into emotive irish exceptionalism helps nobody. Then you need to separate the issues. High rents is one, high rents leading to homelessness another. Homelessness due to mental health, drugs anther and so on

https://www.thejournal.ie/fact-check-homeless-2-3693945-Nov2017/

there's no question we have a massive problem. But there's also no doubt in the age of unfettered capitalism, peace and full globalization homelessness isn't a full blown crisis worldwide.

there's no ending homelessness unless we do away with things like capitalism and globalisation

Niallof9 · 22-11-2019 11:55am

Bigmac1euro wrote: »

Broken record.
Back up your point, you can do it I believe in you.
Show us that we measure homelessness different to most other countries in the world.

https://www.thejournal.ie/fact-check-homeless-2-3693945-Nov2017/

banie01 · 22-11-2019 1:10pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

wait what....

stuff like this helps nobody. Yes its getting worse. yes its more visible. But lumping it all into emotive irish exceptionalism helps nobody. Then you need to separate the issues. High rents is one, high rents leading to homelessness another. Homelessness due to mental health, drugs anther and so on

https://www.thejournal.ie/fact-check-homeless-2-3693945-Nov2017/

there's no question we have a massive problem. But there's also no doubt in the age of unfettered capitalism, peace and full globalization homelessness isn't a full blown crisis worldwide.

there's no ending homelessness unless we do away with things like capitalism and globalisation

Ah now don't go confusing him with actual evidence

He feels like it's worse and won't be doing any research to back up those feelings...

He's the Jedi empath of homeless research and he just knows!

Funnily enough when asked to back up his feelings with evidence gets a bit shirty and deflective.

biko · 22-11-2019 1:24pm

Bigmac1euro wrote: »

An apology ? For what ?
What on earth are you smoking ?
Are you ok ?
How’s your thesis going ?

A helpful page here on How to Use Question Marks
https://www.wikihow.com/Use-Question-Marks

Bigmac1euro · 22-11-2019 2:08pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/fact-check-homeless-2-3693945-Nov2017/

In fairness it quotes multiple times that they can’t actually compare the data because it’s a mess. Verdict: Unproven is mentioned a number of times.

The study which was carried out by a student from trinity used a similar method for the way Ireland calculates homeless data and this graph showed Ireland getting worse year on year. (More dole 4 lifers or genuine cases is anyone’s guess)

Every country has problems with welfare fraud though we aren’t as bad as people make out imo even though it might seem like it. The Finnish argue the same problems we do week in week out. The difference though is they actually gave a lot of homeless people apartments and there wasn’t as many on the street as there is in Dublin it so it seems.
These apartments weren’t very desirable or in a desirable location but that seems fair enough to me. I was in a few fairly run down apartments but still they kept a roof over the heads of people with serious mental and addiction problems.
They also housed their students and the military youth during their conscription.

It’s clearly obvious the data is not available but using your own eyes is probably more accurate when comparing rough sleepers.

And comparing Germany and Finland I felt Ireland was worse. Again I could be wrong. I was only in Berlin in Germany and 2 cities in Finland when I lived there.
But when comparing all 3 capitals
Berlin, Helsinki and Dublin
I seen a lot worse problems in terms of accommodation in Dublin and what seemed like homeless on the streets.

What I previously speculated but didn’t say for fact was that maybe we are quite bad in terms of people being homeless and living on the streets.
I quoted a Wikipedia article as a rough reference to homeless figures.

Sloppy_Joe · 22-11-2019 3:47pm

This is a tricky one because one one hand I think we should all take to the streets over the state of the property market here.

But on the other hand, I know it's nigh on impossible for these protests about the property market to happen without being taken over and seen as people wanting free houses in the city.

CatFromHue · 22-11-2019 9:26pm

weldoninhio wrote: »

I only asked him that yesterday.

on great causes, really great ones, the best

punisher5112 · 22-11-2019 9:48pm

Them nights out do take a toll so a day or 2 in a spa might have helped him you just never know and as there is no transparency then can any believe anything he is spouting out.....

All these charities imo are the same and maybe some were set up originally for the good but it's big business and the pay to staff especially CEO and so on are laughing all the way to the bank.

End to homelessness group on Facebook

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