Can we talk about AH?

MrFresh · 09-06-2019 5:06pm

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

There are tonnes of posts deleted from the thread by the mods so I am wondering do people go back and check if action has been taken or do they just assume that because they have read it that it is still there. There are also banned posters whose posts have been deleted.
The thread was closed at one point for a review so from my looking at this thread (for the first time this afternoon) it looks to me like the mods have been fairly active.
From 16 pages of reading the only actions I deemed appropriate was to infract 2 individuals for attacking the poster rather than the post.
As you can see from the posts above where action is taken some people complain and when no action is taken others complain. Modding AH is a bit of a tightrope act.

That's a fair point. We don't really know what has been done. We can't even see a record of our reported posts. We rely on you guys to tell us what has been done. But i guess when I see the same guys pushing the same bigoted stuff in every single thread I just assume they haven't been actioned.

Nosnon wrote: »

So based on this thread, people want us to,

Be tougher on racism and allow it.
Crack down on homophobia but also let people say what they want.
Allow discussion of traveller culture while curtailing discussion of traveller culture.
Loads more politics in A.H. but less politics in AH at the same time.
Harder and softer moderation at the same time.
Free expression of your religion while curtailing discussion of the other guys religion.

So, to sum up about the only thing people don't get their knickers in a twist about is the amount of sport in AH.

I mean, what did you expect from a feedback thread? Unanimous consensus? It's up to your guys and above to decide what kind of place you want AH to be.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 09-06-2019 5:07pm

Baggly wrote: »

I know you have 3 mins to make an edit without a timestamp, and that I quoted the post responded before that 3 mins was up.

Well then make another post and don't ninja edit and double the content of your post. I didn't make you edit the post. I pointed out you did it.

I said I’m not sure if I did. And there’s no edit timestamp. If you do have extra information that let’s you know that I edited, please fill me in. Because I really can’t remember.

I’d like some definitive confirmation here.

B0jangles · 09-06-2019 5:07pm

This is supposed to be a place where ordinary posters get to give feedback on the forum After Hours, and it is being turned into an exercise in nit-picking and point dodging by some AH moderators. I say that open bigotry is commonplace and tolerated in After Hours, the response is essientially for me to define what bigotry even is before there can be a discussion on whether or not it is occurring in the forum.

If the intent is to put people off from offering any honest feedback, it's probably successful. If there really is any appetite for honest feedback among the AH moderators, it's not apparent from the current style of response.

edit: I was going to fix that typo but I'll leave it for fear of being accused io ninja editing to make a mod look bad.

Baggly · 09-06-2019 5:08pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote:

I said Iâ€™m not sure if I did. And thereâ€™s no edit timestamp. If you do have extra information that letâ€™s you know that I edited, please fill me in. Because I really canâ€™t remember.

Only extra info that I have is that I quoted what was your full post at the time and now the post is bigger, without an edit stamp. Ie ninja edit.

Baggly · 09-06-2019 5:11pm

B0jangles wrote:

This is supposed to be a place where ordinary posters get to give feedback on the forum After Hours, and it is being turned into an exercise in nit-picking and point dodging by some AH moderators. I say that open bigotry is commonplace and tolerated in After Hours, the response is essientially for me to define what bigotry even is before there can be a discussion on whether or not it is occurring in the forum.

Perhaps I am mistaken that its for discussion. I'll leave you to it so.

B0jangles wrote:

If the intent is to put people off from offering any honest feedback, it's probably successful. If there really is any appetite for honest feedback among the AH moderators, it's not apparent from the current style of response.

I don't understand what you want and why you want it tbh. So I'm asking you. Its the only way we will be able to take the feedback on board. If we understand it. I've been offering counter points and asking questions of you and others with little engagement, so I don't know what to say beyond that. I think a feedback thread where feedback isn't questioned / debated is essentially useless. But look ill leave it there.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 09-06-2019 5:12pm

Baggly wrote: »

Only extra info that I have is that I quoted what was your full post at the time and now the post is bigger, without an edit stamp. Ie ninja edit.

Or equally, you could have not quoted the entire post.

There’s no way to tell, is there?

This is actually shocking. :eek:

I cannot believe this. If I did add something, it wasn’t done out of malice. And I’m not even sure that I did! I thought I posted that in one block.

Baggly · 09-06-2019 5:12pm

I quoted the full post.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 09-06-2019 5:15pm

Baggly wrote: »

I quoted the full post.

I didn’t edit.

See? To a casual observer, who is telling the truth?

B0jangles · 09-06-2019 5:17pm

Baggly wrote: »

Perhaps I am mistaken that its for discussion. I'll leave you to it so.

I don't understand what you want and why you want it tbh. So I'm asking you. Its the only way we will be able to take the feedback on board. If we understand it. I've been offering counter points and asking questions of you and others with little engagement, so I don't know what to say beyond that. I think a feedback thread where feedback isn't questioned / debated is essentially useless. But look ill leave it there.

I cannot see how you could have difficulty understanding the feedback I have given. It is as clear and as simple as I can make it.

After Hours is increasingly turning into an echo chamber for bigots. That's what happens when you operate a hands-off moderating policy - the worst element in any society takes over. I think it can and should be better than this, you clearly disagree.

Blueshoe · 09-06-2019 5:19pm

B0jangles wrote: »

I cannot see how you could have difficulty understanding the feedback I have given. It is as clear and as simple as I can make it.

After Hours is increasingly turning into an echo chamber for bigots. That's what happens when you operate a hands-off moderating policy - the worst element in any society takes over. I think it can and should be better than this, you clearly disagree.

Would you say the majority of posters in AH are bigots?
If they are taking over then this must be the case

Baggly · 09-06-2019 5:21pm

I'm using the mobile app. You can tell because some of the posts have a quote but with no blue square hyperlink in the quote.

Any who, you quote by clicking on the full paragraph. It's quotes the full paragraph in its entirety. So what I quoted was the full post that was there at the time.

Edit stamps appear for edits made 3 mins or more after the post was made. I responded to you 4 mins after your post was made, meaning I quoted the post less than 4 mins after the post was made.

So it's entirely clear to me that you made a post and then went back and revised it while I was responding.

I can go on or you can just admit you did the ninja edit instead of writing another post. Like it's not a big deal, it's just not great for discussion, as it distorts what was said at the time and my response to it. You know, for other people who want to read and understand the feedback.

I'm sorry to others. I've said I will leave ye to it and I now will. I've kids that I need to give some time and attention to: I just don't like the sneaky changing of a post in this instance.

strandroad · 09-06-2019 5:23pm

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

The real problem with the thread on the attacks on the lesbian couple in London is that it has become, without any evidence at all, a thread for attacking Islam. There’s no evidence the prepretators are Islamic.

Now if the thread was starting with some other topic like the opposition to the LGBT education in Birmingham by some muslim groups then attacking the religious nature of this opposition would have some justification.

Imagine that there was still significant anti Irish sentiment in England and when something like this happened the internet over there started blaming Irish catholics without cause - would you not suspect racism even if Catholicism were homophobic? - which it is.

The bigots might luck out and it might turn out that this attack was by Muslims, however it’s unlikely given the demographics of where the attack happened that this is the case.

It’s not only that though; prior to Muslims being blamed some of the trolls denied that the homophobic attack was in fact homophobic. That was deliberate and clear thread derailment but at least it was dealt with.

The Islam bashing is clearly off topic either way, and moderators do have the power to guide the topic back to the original topic, with warnings or bannings for people who disregard instructions, even if the individual posts themselves are not otherwise actionable. At the moment it is a sh1tshow.

That's it exactly. It was stated many times that some of the attackers were in fact speaking Spanish, there is no Muslim connection at all to be made, and yet the thread is now all about how Muslims are driving homophobia in the UK - not only they don't seem to have been involved here at all, at 5% population homophobia in the UK was and remains grand regardless of their involvement.

It is very indicative of how AH works now: any thread on anything at all can be quickly overrun by the anti (immigrant, woman, gay etc) crowd, even if the connection is tenuous or non existent, and it is allowed to continue. It's just a complete waste of time to even open some threads, such floods have not much to do with the actual event or point, it's pure bashing with no other content.

Blueshoe · 09-06-2019 5:25pm

strandroad wrote: »

That's it exactly. It was stated many times that some of the attackers were in fact speaking Spanish, there is no Muslim connection at all to be made, and yet the thread is now all about how Muslims are driving homophobia in the UK - not only they don't seem to have been involved here at all, at 5% population homophobia in the UK was and remains grand regardless of their involvement.

It is very indicative of how AH works now: any thread on anything at all can be quickly overrun by the anti (immigrant, woman, gay etc) crowd, even if the connection is tenuous or non existent, and it is allowed to continue. It's just a complete waste of time to even open some threads, such floods have not much to do with the actual event or point, it's pure bashing with no other content.

That makes no sense unless those who hold those views are the majority.

Beasty · 09-06-2019 5:27pm

B0jangles wrote: »

This is supposed to be a place where ordinary posters get to give feedback on the forum After Hours, and it is being turned into an exercise in nit-picking and point dodging by some AH moderators.

In the same way you and others can seek to criticise moderation here, the moderators have every right to respond here. That response may be negative or positive, or indeed neutral

It is unfair for this to become a pnlace for "one side" to be told. Equally there has been feedback here ad in other threads of overmoderation as well as undermoderation and indeed inconsistency. As one who only periodically drops into AH I am not going to make further commentary on the specifics here at this time

I would make a general point though - I think someone suggested moderation should be more proactive in AH. That is really not feasible given the quantity of posts and fast-moving threads. Yes mods may act without prompt, but I equally do not think there should be criticism of not acting if posts are not even reported

Reporting a post though is not enough. A poster makes a judgement call when reporting something. A mod also makes a judgement call when dealing with a report. Sometimes it may be a black and white situation. In many cases it's not. Mods do not drive content (not in their roles as moderators anyway). We see a very wide range of views expressed in AH. It's not a mod's role to censor those views simply because some posters find them unacceptable. There are plenty of expressions of opinion in AH that I am sure I would strongly disagree with, but that does not make them unacceptable

strandroad · 09-06-2019 5:28pm

Blueshoe wrote: »

That makes no sense unless those who hold those views are the majority.

Or unless they have a special gra for bashing and more time than others to spend on it. A hobby you could say. All you need is three to four such bashers to completely derail the thread from its origin.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 09-06-2019 5:28pm

Baggly wrote: »

I'm using the mobile app. You can tell because some of the posts have a quote but with no blue square hyperlink in the quote.

Any who, you quote by clicking on the full paragraph. It's quotes the full paragraph in its entirety. So what I quoted was the full post that was there at the time.

Edit stamps appear for edits made 3 mins or more after the post was made. I responded to you 4 mins after your post was made, meaning I quoted the post less than 4 mins after the post was made.

So it's entirely clear to me that you made a post and then went back and revised it while I was responding.

I can go on or you can just admit you did the ninja edit instead of writing another post. Like it's not a big deal, it's just not great for discussion, as it distorts what was said at the time and my response to it. You know, for other people who want to read and understand the feedback.

I'm sorry to others. I've said I will leave ye to it and I now will. I've kids that I need to give some time and attention to: I just don't like the sneaky changing of a post in this instance.

Sigh. I didn’t want to have to mention this but I genuinely can’t remember because chemobrain has left my short-term memory is a bit foggy.

If I did edit, there would have no malice in it as I wouldn’t have been expecting such a quick reply. But I’m not going to admit to something I’m not sure happened. And I’m really not sure.

I am genuinely upset that my character has been attacked like this. And, well, you’re a mod so you’ll be believed.

You’ve made an accusation that you can’t back up.

Baggly · 09-06-2019 5:32pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote:

Sigh. I didnâ€™t want to have to mention this but I genuinely canâ€™t remember because chemobrain has left my short-term memory is a bit foggy.

OK no problem. I'll drop it.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote:

If I did edit, there would have no malice in it as I wouldnâ€™t have been expecting such a quick reply. But Iâ€™m not going to admit to something Iâ€™m not sure happened. And Iâ€™m really not sure.

I can accept there would have been no malice so.

Beasty · 09-06-2019 5:35pm

OK, can we leave this "ninja edit" point there. I've not been following that part of the thread, but can have a look if necessary. Given Baggly's above post I trust it can now be dropped

Thanks

KikiLaRue · 09-06-2019 5:35pm

Blueshoe wrote: »

Would you say the majority of posters in AH are bigots?
If they are taking over then this must be the case

No, they’re not - and that’s partially why it’s upsetting that a minority of posters who post often are taking over the forum.

There are posters in AH whose views I profoundly disagree with but you with whom I can have a robust and intelligent discussion - this is healthy and I enjoy it.

Then there are some who are quite simply racist and sexist in their views, who are explicit about it, and who don’t actually want to discuss anything but use AH as a place to air views no reasonable person would express in public these days.

Isn’t the overriding rule in AH “Don’t be a d1ck”. If so, there’s a lot of people getting away with breaking it these days.

Pappadolla has a point. I’d be quite happy for Mods and Admin to step up and spell out explicitly for us the kind of place they want AH to be.

If it’s going to be left as is, myself and many others will end up leaving.

The cynic in me says “controversial thread = hundred of pages = advertising $$$ for the site owners”. Maybe it suits them to let AH go to hell.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 09-06-2019 5:40pm

Beasty wrote: »

OK, can we leave this "ninja edit" point there. I've not been following that part of the thread, but can have a look if necessary. Given Baggly's above post I trust it can now be dropped

Thanks

Opinions on my character can still be formed based off the exchange. Really annoying.

I stand by any post I make. And any posts made on previous accounts of somebody recognises me.

Gimme A Pound · 09-06-2019 5:42pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Opinions on my character can still be formed based off the exchange. Really annoying.

That nonsense was pretty astounding. One wonders whether it was deliberate.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 09-06-2019 5:44pm

Arely Dazzling Sidecar wrote: »

That nonsense was pretty astounding. One wonders whether it was deliberate.

I’m honestly gobsmacked.

Beasty · 09-06-2019 5:44pm

KikiLaRue wrote: »

Pappadolla has a point. I’d be quite happy for Mods and Admin to step up and spell out explicitly for us the kind of place they want AH to be.

The problem is we do then get accused of directing/dictating content. It's been made clear many times over that AH is not the place for political threads, but posters genuinely feel they should be allowed to post about any topic there. Threads get moved and we receive negative feedback, Threads stay there under the generally more relaxed moderation (certainly than Politics and indeed Politics Cafe) and mods get criticised for allowing extremist views

On the back of prior feedback, AH has generally allowed a bit more flexibility, but of course not everyone is happy with that. Equally those who are unhappy with whatever is going on are much more likely to contribute to threads like this than anyone who is generally happy with things in AH

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 09-06-2019 5:46pm

Baggly wrote: »

OK no problem. I'll drop it.

I can accept there would have been no malice so.

As you should with not a jot of proof.

Beasty · 09-06-2019 5:50pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

As you should with not a jot of proof.

Sorry to have to make this an instruction, but drop this now

As I have just advised you via PM I will have a look at this later

KikiLaRue · 09-06-2019 5:59pm

Beasty wrote: »

The problem is we do then get accused of directing/dictating content

I think the issue there is if it’s seen as subterfuge designed to undermine free speech - I think as Pappadolla has suggested you should go back to the days when Mods would happily say “You’re not actually entitled to free speech here - we like to keep the atmosphere here pretty relaxed and we enforce our ‘don’t be a d1ck’ rule”.

Create a new norm (or go back to the old norm) where being a decent human is prioritized over guaranteeing everyone free speech. There are plenty of places on the internet for extreme left and right wing hatemongers to go - you don’t have to host them - it’s a choice you’re making.

lbc2019 · 09-06-2019 6:02pm

Boards is a cesspool now.

Timberrrrrrrr · 09-06-2019 6:02pm

How about starting a "Everything bad in the world is islams/muslims fault" mega thread and when the usual suspects hijack threads it can just be dumped there.

OldMrBrennan83 · 09-06-2019 6:05pm

lbc2019 wrote: »

Boards is a cesspool now.

The moderation is the biggest issue. From the inconsistency to the smug public way they make people (pointlessly) appeal infractions it's an absolute powertrip now too.

Posting will always be varied, and some will be terrible, but consistent proper moderation can help massively but it falls so short on this site it's laughable.

Blueshoe · 09-06-2019 6:08pm

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

How about starting a "Everything bad in the world is islams/muslims fault" mega thread and when the usual suspects hijack threads it can just be dumped there.

It will be the biggest and best thread on Boards

MrFresh · 09-06-2019 6:08pm

Beasty wrote: »

The problem is we do then get accused of directing/dictating content.

Isn't controlling content the point of mods and admins? The question is more how much control ye use. Be honest now, do you think a Muslim, traveller or trans person would feel very comfortable browsing AH for a few days?

KikiLaRue · 09-06-2019 6:08pm

lbc2019 wrote: »

Boards is a cesspool now.

It’s not Boards as a whole.

If you look at the PI forum which is moderated vigorously to a certain standard, you’ll see the vast majority of posts are well thought through, compassionate and helpful.

Debate can be robust in the Politics forum but is generally intelligent and respectful.

AH has gone this way specifically because the Mods have allowed it to, and it has become a really unpleasant environment.

Necro · 09-06-2019 6:11pm

B0jangles wrote:

This is supposed to be a place where ordinary posters get to give feedback on the forum After Hours, and it is being turned into an exercise in nit-picking and point dodging by some AH moderators. I say that open bigotry is commonplace and tolerated in After Hours, the response is essientially for me to define what bigotry even is before there can be a discussion on whether or not it is occurring in the forum.

Meh, it's really not though. Last few pages have just become an outright attack on moderation, with some 'arbiters of justice' deeming posts unactioned for whatever reason are because the mods of the forum are promoting bigotry.

It's not feedback, it's just ranting. Theres actually a forum for that you know.

Blueshoe · 09-06-2019 6:12pm

KikiLaRue wrote: »

It’s not Boards as a whole.

If you look at the PI forum which is moderated vigorously to a certain standard, you’ll see the vast majority of posts are well thought through, compassionate and helpful.

Debate can be robust in the Politics forum but is generally intelligent and respectful.

AH has gone this way specifically because the Mods have allowed it to, and it has become a really unpleasant environment.

After hours is supposed to be a bit more fiesty though isn't it?
Is that not the idea?
It's where adults argue and abuse each other for various reasons.
Can't all be boring all in agreement chat between strangers

Poster A: I like Red
Poster B : I also like Red
Poster C: I prefer Blue
Posters A and B : It's ok that you prefer Blue

Necro · 09-06-2019 6:13pm

B0jangles wrote:

After Hours is increasingly turning into an echo chamber for bigots. That's what happens when you operate a hands-off moderating policy - the worst element in any society takes over. I think it can and should be better than this, you clearly disagree.

Its not though, it just suits your point to argue that narrative.

TheValeyard · 09-06-2019 6:15pm

I think the best thing is for everyone to agree with me on all points. Then AH is fine

Timberrrrrrrr · 09-06-2019 6:16pm

Blueshoe wrote: »

It will be the biggest and best thread on Boards

Nah it would be an echo.chamber full of like minded.posters who are scared of everything muslim/islam

Timmy G · 09-06-2019 6:16pm

B0jangles wrote: »

As the old saying goes, a fish rots from the head down. If the moderators don't think there's a more fundamental problem than the occasional troll/rereg, then there really isn't any point reporting posts. How anyone could read through that thread and think there were only a couple of bad posts is beyond me.

The end result of allowing every point of view, not matter how racist or bigoted (as long as you don't Attack a Poster) is not that you get a mixture of all viewpoints, as is the regularly cited intention, it's that the worst element takes over because everyone else just leaves. Like, why would anyone who is one of the more popular After Hours target groups post on Boards? How could they possibly feel that it was a community to which they could ever belong?

<snip>

Please note you must be a member on the site for 3 months and have a minimum postcount of 100 before you can post in Feedback

TheValeyard · 09-06-2019 6:17pm

Blueshoe wrote: »

After hours is supposed to be a bit more fiesty though isn't it?
Is that not the idea?
It's where adults argue and abuse each other for various reasons.
Can't all be boring all in agreement chat between strangers

Poster A: I like Red
Poster B : I also like Red
Poster C: I prefer Blue
Posters A and B : It's ok that you prefer Blue

Posters A and B are communist and therefore part of the left wing agenda to destroy the fabric of society in this country.

Timberrrrrrrr · 09-06-2019 6:18pm

<snip>

Its when a thread on one subject gets hijacked by the usual bigots that pìsses me off.

KikiLaRue · 09-06-2019 6:18pm

Blueshoe wrote: »

After hours is supposed to be a bit more fiesty though isn't it?
Is that not the idea?
It's where adults argue and abuse each other for various reasons.
Can't all be boring all in agreement chat between strangers

Poster A: I like Red
Poster B : I also like Red
Poster C: I prefer Blue
Posters A and B : It's ok that you prefer Blue

You can have a healthy and robust debate without is descending into the hatefest so many AH threads do.

Also, the “interview the person below you” and “trivial things that annoy you/ make you happy” are among the most pleasant threads to participate in.

osarusan · 09-06-2019 6:19pm

Baffling to think that a thread about such an attack can be completely derailed into a thread about Muslims without any evidence for it, and the mods seem to think there is simply nothing they can do about it.

Mod warnings to drop irrelevant sidetracks have been around forever.

blackwhite · 09-06-2019 6:20pm

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Reported many posts and nothing done, in the meanwhile i get carded for telling a poster he bores me!

Then they wonder why the site bleeds posters, the trolls have been allowed take over.

There’s a certain cadre of posters that are allowed throw abuse around like confetti - yet never see a hint of mod action
Special rules depending on who is involved

Necro · 09-06-2019 6:21pm

TheValeyard wrote:

I think the best thing is for everyone to agree with me on all points. Then AH is fine

I agree with this man

KikiLaRue · 09-06-2019 6:22pm

Timmy G wrote: »

<snip>

You are being asked to abide by the rules of the forum.

Timberrrrrrrr · 09-06-2019 6:23pm

Necro wrote: »

I agree with this man

I dont!!!! :mad:

Rabble rabble rabble

Necro · 09-06-2019 6:24pm

Timmy G wrote:

<snip>

Here's the over riding point for me. There's stuff I don't like on forums on Boards, I tend to just, oh... you know...

Not read it.

Beasty · 09-06-2019 6:25pm

MrFresh wrote: »

Isn't controlling content the point of mods and admins?

Absolutely not

We may get accused of it, but it does not happen

Users dictate content. Mods are there to keep discussion civil, and deal with anything contravening site or forum rules

gozunda · 09-06-2019 6:25pm

osarusan wrote: »

Baffling to think that a thread about such an attack can be completely derailed into a thread about Muslims without any evidence for it, and the mods seem to think there is simply nothing they can do about it.

Mod warnings to drop irrelevant sidetracks have been around forever.

Funnily enough the same thing here. But in reverse

Timberrrrrrrr · 09-06-2019 6:26pm

Beasty wrote: »

Absolutely not

We may get accused of it, but it does not happen

Users dictate content. Mods are there to keep discussion civil, and deal with anything contravening site or forum rules

Any chance someone can go to the thread about the women being attacked and get that back on topic so? Why it's been allowed to be hijacked by the "arrrrgh islam" crowd is baffling to be honest.

Can we talk about AH?

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