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Can we talk about AH?

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    #752
    MrFresh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,420 ✭✭✭MrFresh


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    There are tonnes of posts deleted from the thread by the mods so I am wondering do people go back and check if action has been taken or do they just assume that because they have read it that it is still there. There are also banned posters whose posts have been deleted.
    The thread was closed at one point for a review so from my looking at this thread (for the first time this afternoon) it looks to me like the mods have been fairly active.
    From 16 pages of reading the only actions I deemed appropriate was to infract 2 individuals for attacking the poster rather than the post.
    As you can see from the posts above where action is taken some people complain and when no action is taken others complain. Modding AH is a bit of a tightrope act.


    That's a fair point. We don't really know what has been done. We can't even see a record of our reported posts. We rely on you guys to tell us what has been done. But i guess when I see the same guys pushing the same bigoted stuff in every single thread I just assume they haven't been actioned.

    Nosnon wrote: »
    So based on this thread, people want us to,

    Be tougher on racism and allow it.
    Crack down on homophobia but also let people say what they want.
    Allow discussion of traveller culture while curtailing discussion of traveller culture.
    Loads more politics in A.H. but less politics in AH at the same time.
    Harder and softer moderation at the same time.
    Free expression of your religion while curtailing discussion of the other guys religion.

    So, to sum up about the only thing people don't get their knickers in a twist about is the amount of sport in AH.


    I mean, what did you expect from a feedback thread? Unanimous consensus? It's up to your guys and above to decide what kind of place you want AH to be.


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    #753
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Baggly wrote: »
    I know you have 3 mins to make an edit without a timestamp, and that I quoted the post responded before that 3 mins was up.



    Well then make another post and don't ninja edit and double the content of your post. I didn't make you edit the post. I pointed out you did it.

    I said I’m not sure if I did. And there’s no edit timestamp. If you do have extra information that let’s you know that I edited, please fill me in. Because I really can’t remember.

    I’d like some definitive confirmation here.


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    #754
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,951 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    This is supposed to be a place where ordinary posters get to give feedback on the forum After Hours, and it is being turned into an exercise in nit-picking and point dodging by some AH moderators. I say that open bigotry is commonplace and tolerated in After Hours, the response is essientially for me to define what bigotry even is before there can be a discussion on whether or not it is occurring in the forum.

    If the intent is to put people off from offering any honest feedback, it's probably successful. If there really is any appetite for honest feedback among the AH moderators, it's not apparent from the current style of response.

    edit: I was going to fix that typo but I'll leave it for fear of being accused io ninja editing to make a mod look bad.


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    #755
    Baggly
    Registered Users Posts: 35,024 ✭✭✭✭Baggly


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote:
    I said I’m not sure if I did. And there’s no edit timestamp. If you do have extra information that let’s you know that I edited, please fill me in. Because I really can’t remember.


    Only extra info that I have is that I quoted what was your full post at the time and now the post is bigger, without an edit stamp. Ie ninja edit.


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    #756
    Baggly
    Registered Users Posts: 35,024 ✭✭✭✭Baggly


    B0jangles wrote:
    This is supposed to be a place where ordinary posters get to give feedback on the forum After Hours, and it is being turned into an exercise in nit-picking and point dodging by some AH moderators. I say that open bigotry is commonplace and tolerated in After Hours, the response is essientially for me to define what bigotry even is before there can be a discussion on whether or not it is occurring in the forum.

    Perhaps I am mistaken that its for discussion. I'll leave you to it so.
    B0jangles wrote:
    If the intent is to put people off from offering any honest feedback, it's probably successful. If there really is any appetite for honest feedback among the AH moderators, it's not apparent from the current style of response.

    I don't understand what you want and why you want it tbh. So I'm asking you. Its the only way we will be able to take the feedback on board. If we understand it. I've been offering counter points and asking questions of you and others with little engagement, so I don't know what to say beyond that. I think a feedback thread where feedback isn't questioned / debated is essentially useless. But look ill leave it there.


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    #757
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Baggly wrote: »
    Only extra info that I have is that I quoted what was your full post at the time and now the post is bigger, without an edit stamp. Ie ninja edit.

    Or equally, you could have not quoted the entire post. :confused: There’s no way to tell, is there?

    This is actually shocking. :eek:

    I cannot believe this. If I did add something, it wasn’t done out of malice. And I’m not even sure that I did! I thought I posted that in one block.


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    #758
    Baggly
    Registered Users Posts: 35,024 ✭✭✭✭Baggly


    I quoted the full post.


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    #759
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Baggly wrote: »
    I quoted the full post.

    I didn’t edit.

    See? To a casual observer, who is telling the truth?


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    #760
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,951 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    Baggly wrote: »
    Perhaps I am mistaken that its for discussion. I'll leave you to it so.

    I don't understand what you want and why you want it tbh. So I'm asking you. Its the only way we will be able to take the feedback on board. If we understand it. I've been offering counter points and asking questions of you and others with little engagement, so I don't know what to say beyond that. I think a feedback thread where feedback isn't questioned / debated is essentially useless. But look ill leave it there.


    I cannot see how you could have difficulty understanding the feedback I have given. It is as clear and as simple as I can make it.



    After Hours is increasingly turning into an echo chamber for bigots. That's what happens when you operate a hands-off moderating policy - the worst element in any society takes over. I think it can and should be better than this, you clearly disagree.


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    #761
    Blueshoe
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,964 ✭✭✭Blueshoe


    B0jangles wrote: »
    I cannot see how you could have difficulty understanding the feedback I have given. It is as clear and as simple as I can make it.



    After Hours is increasingly turning into an echo chamber for bigots. That's what happens when you operate a hands-off moderating policy - the worst element in any society takes over. I think it can and should be better than this, you clearly disagree.

    Would you say the majority of posters in AH are bigots?
    If they are taking over then this must be the case


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    #762
    Baggly
    Registered Users Posts: 35,024 ✭✭✭✭Baggly


    I'm using the mobile app. You can tell because some of the posts have a quote but with no blue square hyperlink in the quote.

    Any who, you quote by clicking on the full paragraph. It's quotes the full paragraph in its entirety. So what I quoted was the full post that was there at the time.

    Edit stamps appear for edits made 3 mins or more after the post was made. I responded to you 4 mins after your post was made, meaning I quoted the post less than 4 mins after the post was made.

    So it's entirely clear to me that you made a post and then went back and revised it while I was responding.

    I can go on or you can just admit you did the ninja edit instead of writing another post. Like it's not a big deal, it's just not great for discussion, as it distorts what was said at the time and my response to it. You know, for other people who want to read and understand the feedback.

    I'm sorry to others. I've said I will leave ye to it and I now will. I've kids that I need to give some time and attention to: I just don't like the sneaky changing of a post in this instance.


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    #763
    strandroad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭strandroad


    Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »
    The real problem with the thread on the attacks on the lesbian couple in London is that it has become, without any evidence at all, a thread for attacking Islam. There’s no evidence the prepretators are Islamic.

    Now if the thread was starting with some other topic like the opposition to the LGBT education in Birmingham by some muslim groups then attacking the religious nature of this opposition would have some justification.

    Imagine that there was still significant anti Irish sentiment in England and when something like this happened the internet over there started blaming Irish catholics without cause - would you not suspect racism even if Catholicism were homophobic? - which it is.

    The bigots might luck out and it might turn out that this attack was by Muslims, however it’s unlikely given the demographics of where the attack happened that this is the case.

    It’s not only that though; prior to Muslims being blamed some of the trolls denied that the homophobic attack was in fact homophobic. That was deliberate and clear thread derailment but at least it was dealt with.

    The Islam bashing is clearly off topic either way, and moderators do have the power to guide the topic back to the original topic, with warnings or bannings for people who disregard instructions, even if the individual posts themselves are not otherwise actionable. At the moment it is a sh1tshow.

    That's it exactly. It was stated many times that some of the attackers were in fact speaking Spanish, there is no Muslim connection at all to be made, and yet the thread is now all about how Muslims are driving homophobia in the UK - not only they don't seem to have been involved here at all, at 5% population homophobia in the UK was and remains grand regardless of their involvement.

    It is very indicative of how AH works now: any thread on anything at all can be quickly overrun by the anti (immigrant, woman, gay etc) crowd, even if the connection is tenuous or non existent, and it is allowed to continue. It's just a complete waste of time to even open some threads, such floods have not much to do with the actual event or point, it's pure bashing with no other content.


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    #764
    Blueshoe
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,964 ✭✭✭Blueshoe


    strandroad wrote: »
    That's it exactly. It was stated many times that some of the attackers were in fact speaking Spanish, there is no Muslim connection at all to be made, and yet the thread is now all about how Muslims are driving homophobia in the UK - not only they don't seem to have been involved here at all, at 5% population homophobia in the UK was and remains grand regardless of their involvement.

    It is very indicative of how AH works now: any thread on anything at all can be quickly overrun by the anti (immigrant, woman, gay etc) crowd, even if the connection is tenuous or non existent, and it is allowed to continue. It's just a complete waste of time to even open some threads, such floods have not much to do with the actual event or point, it's pure bashing with no other content.

    That makes no sense unless those who hold those views are the majority.


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    #765
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,533 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    B0jangles wrote: »
    This is supposed to be a place where ordinary posters get to give feedback on the forum After Hours, and it is being turned into an exercise in nit-picking and point dodging by some AH moderators.

    In the same way you and others can seek to criticise moderation here, the moderators have every right to respond here. That response may be negative or positive, or indeed neutral

    It is unfair for this to become a pnlace for "one side" to be told. Equally there has been feedback here ad in other threads of overmoderation as well as undermoderation and indeed inconsistency. As one who only periodically drops into AH I am not going to make further commentary on the specifics here at this time

    I would make a general point though - I think someone suggested moderation should be more proactive in AH. That is really not feasible given the quantity of posts and fast-moving threads. Yes mods may act without prompt, but I equally do not think there should be criticism of not acting if posts are not even reported

    Reporting a post though is not enough. A poster makes a judgement call when reporting something. A mod also makes a judgement call when dealing with a report. Sometimes it may be a black and white situation. In many cases it's not. Mods do not drive content (not in their roles as moderators anyway). We see a very wide range of views expressed in AH. It's not a mod's role to censor those views simply because some posters find them unacceptable. There are plenty of expressions of opinion in AH that I am sure I would strongly disagree with, but that does not make them unacceptable


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    #766
    strandroad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭strandroad


    Blueshoe wrote: »
    That makes no sense unless those who hold those views are the majority.

    Or unless they have a special gra for bashing and more time than others to spend on it. A hobby you could say. All you need is three to four such bashers to completely derail the thread from its origin.


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    #767
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Baggly wrote: »
    I'm using the mobile app. You can tell because some of the posts have a quote but with no blue square hyperlink in the quote.

    Any who, you quote by clicking on the full paragraph. It's quotes the full paragraph in its entirety. So what I quoted was the full post that was there at the time.

    Edit stamps appear for edits made 3 mins or more after the post was made. I responded to you 4 mins after your post was made, meaning I quoted the post less than 4 mins after the post was made.

    So it's entirely clear to me that you made a post and then went back and revised it while I was responding.

    I can go on or you can just admit you did the ninja edit instead of writing another post. Like it's not a big deal, it's just not great for discussion, as it distorts what was said at the time and my response to it. You know, for other people who want to read and understand the feedback.

    I'm sorry to others. I've said I will leave ye to it and I now will. I've kids that I need to give some time and attention to: I just don't like the sneaky changing of a post in this instance.

    Sigh. I didn’t want to have to mention this but I genuinely can’t remember because chemobrain has left my short-term memory is a bit foggy.

    If I did edit, there would have no malice in it as I wouldn’t have been expecting such a quick reply. But I’m not going to admit to something I’m not sure happened. And I’m really not sure.

    I am genuinely upset that my character has been attacked like this. And, well, you’re a mod so you’ll be believed.

    You’ve made an accusation that you can’t back up.


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    #768
    Baggly
    Registered Users Posts: 35,024 ✭✭✭✭Baggly


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote:
    Sigh. I didn’t want to have to mention this but I genuinely can’t remember because chemobrain has left my short-term memory is a bit foggy.

    OK no problem. I'll drop it.
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote:
    If I did edit, there would have no malice in it as I wouldn’t have been expecting such a quick reply. But I’m not going to admit to something I’m not sure happened. And I’m really not sure.

    I can accept there would have been no malice so.


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    #769
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,533 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    OK, can we leave this "ninja edit" point there. I've not been following that part of the thread, but can have a look if necessary. Given Baggly's above post I trust it can now be dropped

    Thanks


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    #770
    KikiLaRue
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭KikiLaRue


    Blueshoe wrote: »
    Would you say the majority of posters in AH are bigots?
    If they are taking over then this must be the case

    No, they’re not - and that’s partially why it’s upsetting that a minority of posters who post often are taking over the forum.

    There are posters in AH whose views I profoundly disagree with but you with whom I can have a robust and intelligent discussion - this is healthy and I enjoy it.

    Then there are some who are quite simply racist and sexist in their views, who are explicit about it, and who don’t actually want to discuss anything but use AH as a place to air views no reasonable person would express in public these days.

    Isn’t the overriding rule in AH “Don’t be a d1ck”. If so, there’s a lot of people getting away with breaking it these days.

    Pappadolla has a point. I’d be quite happy for Mods and Admin to step up and spell out explicitly for us the kind of place they want AH to be.

    If it’s going to be left as is, myself and many others will end up leaving.

    The cynic in me says “controversial thread = hundred of pages = advertising $$$ for the site owners”. Maybe it suits them to let AH go to hell.


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    #771
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Beasty wrote: »
    OK, can we leave this "ninja edit" point there. I've not been following that part of the thread, but can have a look if necessary. Given Baggly's above post I trust it can now be dropped

    Thanks

    Opinions on my character can still be formed based off the exchange. Really annoying.

    I stand by any post I make. And any posts made on previous accounts of somebody recognises me.


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    #772
    Gimme A Pound
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,482 ✭✭✭Gimme A Pound


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    Opinions on my character can still be formed based off the exchange. Really annoying.
    That nonsense was pretty astounding. One wonders whether it was deliberate.


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    #773
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Arely Dazzling Sidecar wrote: »
    That nonsense was pretty astounding. One wonders whether it was deliberate.

    I’m honestly gobsmacked.


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    #774
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,533 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    KikiLaRue wrote: »

    Pappadolla has a point. I’d be quite happy for Mods and Admin to step up and spell out explicitly for us the kind of place they want AH to be.
    The problem is we do then get accused of directing/dictating content. It's been made clear many times over that AH is not the place for political threads, but posters genuinely feel they should be allowed to post about any topic there. Threads get moved and we receive negative feedback, Threads stay there under the generally more relaxed moderation (certainly than Politics and indeed Politics Cafe) and mods get criticised for allowing extremist views

    On the back of prior feedback, AH has generally allowed a bit more flexibility, but of course not everyone is happy with that. Equally those who are unhappy with whatever is going on are much more likely to contribute to threads like this than anyone who is generally happy with things in AH


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    #775
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Baggly wrote: »
    OK no problem. I'll drop it.



    I can accept there would have been no malice so.

    As you should with not a jot of proof.


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    #776
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,533 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    As you should with not a jot of proof.
    Sorry to have to make this an instruction, but drop this now

    As I have just advised you via PM I will have a look at this later


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    #777
    KikiLaRue
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭KikiLaRue


    Beasty wrote: »
    The problem is we do then get accused of directing/dictating content

    I think the issue there is if it’s seen as subterfuge designed to undermine free speech - I think as Pappadolla has suggested you should go back to the days when Mods would happily say “You’re not actually entitled to free speech here - we like to keep the atmosphere here pretty relaxed and we enforce our ‘don’t be a d1ck’ rule”.

    Create a new norm (or go back to the old norm) where being a decent human is prioritized over guaranteeing everyone free speech. There are plenty of places on the internet for extreme left and right wing hatemongers to go - you don’t have to host them - it’s a choice you’re making.


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    #778
    lbc2019
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,291 ✭✭✭lbc2019


    Boards is a cesspool now.


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    #779
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,426 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    How about starting a "Everything bad in the world is islams/muslims fault" mega thread and when the usual suspects hijack threads it can just be dumped there.


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    #780
    OldMrBrennan83
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    lbc2019 wrote: »
    Boards is a cesspool now.

    The moderation is the biggest issue. From the inconsistency to the smug public way they make people (pointlessly) appeal infractions it's an absolute powertrip now too.

    Posting will always be varied, and some will be terrible, but consistent proper moderation can help massively but it falls so short on this site it's laughable.


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    #781
    Blueshoe
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,964 ✭✭✭Blueshoe


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    How about starting a "Everything bad in the world is islams/muslims fault" mega thread and when the usual suspects hijack threads it can just be dumped there.

    It will be the biggest and best thread on Boards


This discussion has been closed.
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