FF/FG/Green Government - Part 3

FrancieBrady · 05-07-2021 10:52am

Finty Lemon wrote: »

Free and open elections have been in place since the foundation of the state. Compare that to the 20th century socialist nightmare inflicted on other countries. Nuff said.

Who held up '20th century socialist elections' as a comparison Finty?

Can you stick to the points made? Instead of the invention of points of view then arguing against them? That is a tired old stunt used by some on these forums. Invent a position for another poster then rail against it. It is just another form of lying/bluffing.

05-07-2021 11:17am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The 'theory' was tested at the previous two GE's Marine.
After one, FG/FF circled the wagons in a confidence and supply arrangement and after the next one they effectively merged in an unprecedented coalition.

History will see that as an effort to cling to what they had for 100 years, a controlling power swap arrangement.

No it wasn't
The theory can only be tested after they've actually shared power
Up to this they were bitter opponents
A power swap is something agreed whereby one party agrees to swap with another
Polls suggest at present,1 year into this that a version of this government would be returned
The power envy parties just need to get enough votes
To date they still haven't

Billcarson · 05-07-2021 11:17am

Finty Lemon wrote: »

Free and open elections have been in place since the foundation of the state. Compare that to the 20th century socialist nightmare inflicted on other countries. Nuff said.

Deflection. Doesn't change the fact that they are trying their best to cling on to power
Well circling the wagons won't save them next time.

FrancieBrady · 05-07-2021 11:21am

Marine Layer wrote: »

No it wasn't
The theory can only be tested after they've actually shared power
Up to this they were bitter opponents
A power swap is something agreed whereby one party agrees to swap with another
Polls suggest at present,1 year into this that a version of this government would be returned
The power envy parties just need to get enough votes
To date they still haven't

The theory is proved, as soon as an opposition emerged that was not prepared to be used as blame fodder in return for comfy seats, FG and FF began to merge/coalesce in an effort to exclude and cling to power. All of which highlighted the sham rivalry that went before.

Finty Lemon · 05-07-2021 12:09pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Who held up '20th century socialist elections' as a comparison Finty?

Can you stick to the points made? Instead of the invention of points of view then arguing against them? That is a tired old stunt used by some on these forums. Invent a position for another poster then rail against it. It is just another form of lying/bluffing.

There is no "power swap", it is a myth. Free and open elections have been held since the foundation of the state, a fact that obliterates any notion of it. That is the point.
Irelands record of the electorate having its choice is a proud one and stands in stark contrast to the coercive socialist models often trumpeted on here.

Finty Lemon · 05-07-2021 12:10pm

Billcarson wrote: »

Deflection. Doesn't change the fact that they are trying their best to cling on to power
Well circling the wagons won't save them next time.

The parties in opposition now had the numbers to form a government last time out. They walked away.
They will have their go the next time.

FrancieBrady · 05-07-2021 12:12pm

The Claire Byrne DBS debate, featuring the oft trotted out excuses of government parties and those who sacrificed themselves as blame fodder:

'It was during a recession'
'It was during a pandemic'

FG's Geoghegan trying to be all things to all people is a thing to marvel at aurally as well.

FrancieBrady · 05-07-2021 12:14pm

Finty Lemon wrote: »

There is no "power swap", it is a myth. Free and open elections have been held since the foundation of the state, a fact that obliterates any notion of it. That is the point.
Irelands record of the electorate having its choice is a proud one and stands in stark contrast to the coercive socialist models often trumpeted on here.

Hmmm, the 'electorate chose last time out. What did they get again?

We'll see what they think of that, only at the next election. Will FG and FF lie to them again about their intentions? Hold this space.

05-07-2021 12:14pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The theory is proved, as soon as an opposition emerged that was not prepared to be used as blame fodder in return for comfy seats, FG and FF began to merge/coalesce in an effort to exclude and cling to power. All of which highlighted the sham rivalry that went before.

But that arrangement hasn't been put to the test yet
Also polls suggest a majority would return it
So you are wrong
We'll have another 500 to 600 days to wait and see

Finty Lemon · 05-07-2021 12:15pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

That's precisely what Finty is saying. Exclusion politics.

The power swap rocked to the core. FF/FG bunkered up and effectively merged, in one final effort to cling on.

The current government represents the decision of the people at the last election. FFG, if you are so intent on using this construct, is by some distance the largest party in the state. Its either one party or it isn't.

FrancieBrady · 05-07-2021 12:16pm

Finty Lemon wrote: »

The current government represents the decision off the people at the last election. FFG, if you are so intent on using this construct, is the largest party in the state. Its either one party or it isn't.

Once again...I have never used 'FFG'. Invent a position for a poster...rail against it...rinse and repeat with you Finty. Dishonest and dis-ingenuous.

P.S. The 'electorate' went to the polls having been promised FF would 'never' go into coalition with FG. What did they get Finty?

Finty Lemon · 05-07-2021 12:16pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Hmmm, the 'electorate chose last time out. What did they get again?

We'll see what they think of that, only at the next election. Will FG and FF lie to them again about their intentions? Hold this space.

They got the government they deserve

Finty Lemon · 05-07-2021 12:19pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Once again...I have never used 'FFG'. Invent a position for a poster...rail against it...rinse and repeat with you Finty. Dishonest and dis-ingenuous.

FFG doesn't exist. Glad we established that. Tell your mates.

So the current government is a voluntary coalition. Like every other coalition in the history of free elections, it emerged from necessity.

FrancieBrady · 05-07-2021 12:24pm

Finty Lemon wrote: »

FFG doesn't exist. Glad we established that. Tell your mates.

So the current government is a voluntary coalition. Like every other coalition in the history of free elections, it emerged from necessity.

An unprecedented coalition that one party assured the electorate would never happen.
Your opinion of why it happened is your own, as is mine.

Finty Lemon · 05-07-2021 12:30pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

An unprecedented coalition that one party assured the electorate would never happen.
Your opinion of why it happened is your own, as is mine.

Sounds a bit like Stormont to me.

05-07-2021 12:36pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

An unprecedented coalition that one party assured the electorate would never happen.
Your opinion of why it happened is your own, as is mine.

Your use of the word unprecedented is your own too...
SF's support at the last election was so unprecedented and they themselves so unexpected it that they didn't put up enough candidates...

Parties since the dawn of democracy have had opposing positions untill they entered talks

FrancieBrady · 05-07-2021 12:39pm

Finty Lemon wrote: »

Sounds a bit like Stormont to me.

....and Finty runs out of argument again...SQUIRREL!

FrancieBrady · 05-07-2021 12:40pm

Marine Layer wrote: »

Your use of the word unprecedented is your own too...
SF's support at the last election was so unprecedented and they themselves so unexpected it that they didn't put up enough candidates...

Parties since the dawn of democracy have had opposing positions untill they entered talks

A coalition government of FF and FG is unprecedented in the history of this state.

No need for the 'look over there's'

Fact, and proper usage of the term.

Finty Lemon · 05-07-2021 12:48pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

....and Finty runs out of argument again...SQUIRREL!

Not quite.
This morning we have established..
FFG doesn't exist.
There is no such thing as a 100 year power swap.
The country is run by a voluntary coalition elected by a majority of the citizens
Coaltion governments are routine and acceptable
The pharmacists' reps are very happy with rollout
The 18 to 30 cohort are enthusiastic about vaccination.

Hold my nuts...

Finty Lemon · 05-07-2021 12:50pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A coalition government of FF and FG is unprecedented in the history of this state.

No need for the 'look over there's'

Fact, and proper usage of the term.

Monaghan winning an All Ireland would be unprecedented but you would still accept it Francie.
Dream on for that one too lad

FrancieBrady · 05-07-2021 12:53pm

Finty Lemon wrote: »

Monaghan winning an All Ireland would be unprecedented but you would still accept it Francie.
Dream on for that one too lad

Nobody in Monaghan promising NEVER to do it though.

Finty Lemon · 05-07-2021 12:58pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Nobody in Monaghan promising NEVER to do it though.

:D:D good one

Cluedo Monopoly · 05-07-2021 1:47pm

Marine Layer wrote: »

But that arrangement hasn't been put to the test yet
Also polls suggest a majority would return it
So you are wrong
We'll have another 500 to 600 days to wait and see

You are trying too hard Marine

FrancieBrady · 05-07-2021 1:54pm

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

You are trying too hard Marine

The fact there is, that in order to test that arrangement, FF/FG/Greens have to put that arrangement to the people in the next campaign.
But will they or will they lie again about who they will go into coalition with?
If the electorate buy the lie again then they will get what they deserve. The decline in FF and FG's vote share from a high of 86% to just over 40% shows that more and more are moving away from them.

05-07-2021 2:17pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The fact there is, that in order to test that arrangement, FF/FG/Greens have to put that arrangement to the people in the next campaign.
But will they or will they lie again about who they will go into coalition with?
If the electorate buy the lie again then they will get what they deserve. The decline in FF and FG's vote share from a high of 86% to just over 40% shows that more and more are moving away from them.

polls so far indicate enough of the electorate would bring in T.D's that would return the current government and that the power envy party would be in opposition again
5 to 600 days before we find out

FrancieBrady · 05-07-2021 2:22pm

Marine Layer wrote: »

polls so far indicate enough of the electorate would bring in T.D's that would return the current government and that the power envy party would be in opposition again
5 to 600 days before we find out

No, that is a mis-read. Polls show that the electorate are happy with the present government at the time the poll was taken. That is all we know.

Will that be the same come another GE. Nobody, including you, knows.

p.s. you also don't know how long this government will last, if you think repeating the last sentence is some kind of a taunt.

Shebean · 05-07-2021 2:29pm

Marine Layer wrote: »

polls so far indicate enough of the electorate would bring in T.D's that would return the current government and that the power envy party would be in opposition again
5 to 600 days before we find out

Speaking on FF and FG like one unit shows a problem for their identities. Most of the support one would get to usher them in to government was that they weren't the other. FF win, FG lose or FG win FF lose.
The fact that they had/have to join forces tells the electorate they'll do anything to keep others out. Varadkar said so much about SF the other week.
I think this will damage FF/FG in the long run. In the least they'll be tied together in the mind of the electorate for some years. This will lessen the traditional bounce effect were voters would drift from one to the other.
While we are likely to see one of FF/FG in the next government there's a strong possibility they'll be a junior partner.

FrancieBrady · 05-07-2021 2:50pm

Shebean wrote: »

Speaking on FF and FG like one unit shows a problem for their identities. Most of the support one would get to usher them in to government was that they weren't the other. FF win, FG lose or FG win FF lose.
The fact that they had/have to join forces tells the electorate they'll do anything to keep others out. Varadkar said so much about SF the other week.
I think this will damage FF/FG in the long run. In the least they'll be tied together in the mind of the electorate for some years. This will lessen the traditional bounce effect were voters would drift from one to the other.
While we are likely to see one of FF/FG in the next government there's a strong possibility they'll be a junior partner.

No more than the mess the DUP have gotten themselves into. The 'FF FG having to coalesce' mess is of their own making. Essentially it means the demise of one of them.
Politics is changing for the better here. The toxicity of the power swap is disappearing. Which suits me.

RandomViewer · 05-07-2021 3:23pm

Finty Lemon wrote: »

Why?

FG got a Australian visa for someone who should have gone to jail

Cluedo Monopoly · 05-07-2021 4:47pm

Marine Layer wrote: »

polls so far indicate enough of the electorate would bring in T.D's that would return the current government and that the power envy party would be in opposition again
5 to 600 days before we find out

The only poll that counts is the General Election.

Here is the popular vote totals for FF+FG over the past 4 elections.

GE 2007 = 1,422,993
GE 2011 = 1,188,986
GE 2016 = 1,063,496
GE 2020 = 939,904

You honestly think this trend will be reversed by the chaos coalition?

skimpydoo · 05-07-2021 5:04pm

Finty Lemon wrote: »

Monaghan winning an All Ireland would be unprecedented but you would still accept it Francie.
Dream on for that one too lad

Monaghan has won 2 All Ireland's. The Monaghan ladies won back to back in 1996 and 1997.

FrancieBrady · 05-07-2021 5:37pm

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

The only poll that counts is the General Election.

Here is the popular vote totals for FF+FG over the past 4 elections.

GE 2007 = 1,422,993
GE 2011 = 1,188,986
GE 2016 = 1,063,496
GE 2020 = 939,904

You honestly think this trend will be reversed by the chaos coalition?

FG are currently doing what FF or FG did when they went into various coalitions.

They are setting up FF as the fall guys for this coalition. Wiser and smarter than FF?
Can they maintain it when FG take the Taoiseach reins again or will FF turn out to be the real smarty's of the piece I.E.- allowing FG's leadership to be freshest in the minds of disgruntled voters.

Stay tuned!

RandomViewer · 05-07-2021 5:40pm

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

The only poll that counts is the General Election.

Here is the popular vote totals for FF+FG over the past 4 elections.

GE 2007 = 1,422,993
GE 2011 = 1,188,986
GE 2016 = 1,063,496
GE 2020 = 939,904

You honestly think this trend will be reversed by the chaos coalition?

So in and around 850k next time,

RandomViewer · 05-07-2021 5:43pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

FG are currently doing what FF or FG did when they went into various coalitions.

They are setting up FF as the fall guys for this coalition. Wiser and smarter than FF?
Can they maintain it when FG take the Taoiseach reins again or will FF turn out to be the real smarty's of the piece I.E.- allowing FG's leadership to be freshest in the minds of disgruntled voters.

Stay tuned!

Ryan's going to get a few weeks at the end, sort of call the election for October and go on Summer recess leaving Ryan as figurehead

Shebean · 05-07-2021 5:43pm

The next kerfuffle will be all the civil liberties arguments of vaccine passports for going for a sandwich. Showing personal health information to some youngfella on minimum wage will not fly.
Maybe an app that shows a simple yes or no? But I don't know how that can be enforced.

I expect a lot of tax payer money to be spent before it's scrapped.

RandomViewer · 05-07-2021 5:59pm

Shebean wrote: »

The next kerfuffle will be all the civil liberties arguments of vaccine passports for going for a sandwich. Showing personal health information to some youngfella on minimum wage will not fly.
Maybe an app that shows a simple yes or no? But I don't know how that can be enforced.

I expect a lot of tax payer money to be spent before it's scrapped.

Would be thinking someone's been given the wink for the App already, what's the odds it won't be compatible with half the phones

Shebean · 05-07-2021 6:48pm

RandomViewer wrote: »

Would be thinking someone's been given the wink for the App already, what's the odds it won't be compatible with half the phones

Most likely. The important thing is there'll be a contract. We can worry about functionality after the vendor is well paid. I suggest somebody with absolutely no previous experience in the field.

Floppybits · 05-07-2021 7:04pm

Shebean wrote: »

The next kerfuffle will be all the civil liberties arguments of vaccine passports for going for a sandwich. Showing personal health information to some youngfella on minimum wage will not fly.
Maybe an app that shows a simple yes or no? But I don't know how that can be enforced.

I expect a lot of tax payer money to be spent before it's scrapped.

I don't like this route that the government is going down with extra freedoms for vaccinated versus the unvaccinated. It is asking for trouble creating a them and us situation.

Shebean · 05-07-2021 7:07pm

Floppybits wrote: »

I don't like this route that the government is going down with extra freedoms for vaccinated versus the unvaccinated. It is asking for trouble creating a them and us situation.

Agreed. You could maybe put restrictions on port arrivals but bar a 'Management reserve the right to admission' kind of thing the word 'discrimination' will be raised.

The important thing is we pay someone to put it together before we research anything.

Floppybits · 05-07-2021 7:23pm

Shebean wrote: »

Agreed. You could maybe put restrictions on port arrivals but bar a 'Management reserve the right to admission' kind of thing the word 'discrimination' will be raised.

The important thing is we pay someone to put it together before we research anything.

My problem with it is that in this country we have too many people all to willing to walk over people who are less fortunate or maybe don't subscribe to the group think. Some folks will be licking their lips at treating people like pariahs who have not been vaccinated.

Calhoun · 05-07-2021 7:53pm

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/red-faced-rte-admits-showing-ivana-bacik-tv-programme-before-by-election-was-an-inadvertent-error-40616724.html

RTE playing games may have a bit of a positive bump for other candidates particularly FG candidate if the polls are true is competing directly with Bacik.

FrancieBrady · 05-07-2021 7:57pm

Calhoun wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/red-faced-rte-admits-showing-ivana-bacik-tv-programme-before-by-election-was-an-inadvertent-error-40616724.html

RTE playing games may have a bit of a positive bump for other candidates particularly FG candidate if the polls are true is competing directly with Bacik.

The succession of indignation and anger from FG about an IT opinion piece on Geoghegan this morning is glorious to read.
As yer man in Dad's Army used say, 'they don't like it up 'em'.

Calhoun · 05-07-2021 7:59pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The succession of indignation and anger from FG about an IT opinion piece on Geoghegan this morning is glorious to read.
As yer man in Dad's Army used say, 'they don't like it up 'em'.

The danger is in a two horse race people may pick the lesser of two evils and considering both of their past political backgrounds its hard to tell who is worse Geoghegan or Bacik.

Floppybits · 05-07-2021 8:02pm

Calhoun wrote: »

The danger is in a two horse race people may pick the lesser of two evils and considering both of their past political backgrounds its hard to tell who is worse Geoghegan or Bacik.

Geoghegan is the one I would worry about getting in especially with his involvement with Renua.

Calhoun · 05-07-2021 8:10pm

Floppybits wrote: »

Geoghegan is the one I would worry about getting in especially with his involvement with Renua.

Bacik is fairly dodgy as well going back to her days as SU president in Trinity and has done some fairly underhanded stuff in the past.

Its hard to tell which one of them has less skeletons in the closet. Also what Geoghegan does have going for him is that it looks like the IT article is written by Una Mullaly and her politics are not so objective.

Its going to be an interesting few days either way.

Shebean · 05-07-2021 8:56pm

Calhoun wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/red-faced-rte-admits-showing-ivana-bacik-tv-programme-before-by-election-was-an-inadvertent-error-40616724.html

RTE playing games may have a bit of a positive bump for other candidates particularly FG candidate if the polls are true is competing directly with Bacik.

RTE is filled with rank amateurs. More nepotism gone awry than Machiavelli.

Loafing Oaf · 05-07-2021 9:13pm

Calhoun wrote: »

The danger is in a two horse race people may pick the lesser of two evils and considering both of their past political backgrounds its hard to tell who is worse Geoghegan or Bacik.

There's no debate about that for most people who generally vote SF or the smaller left parties. I can't see any downside for Bacik for the perception to grow that this is a two-horse race between her and Geoghegan.

FrancieBrady · 05-07-2021 9:17pm

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

There's no debate about that for most people who generally vote SF or the smaller left parties. I can't see any downside for Bacik for the perception to grow that this is a two-horse race between her and Geoghegan.

Who is ahead in the polling, (not paying much attention tbh)

Floppybits · 05-07-2021 9:19pm

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

There's no debate about that for most people who generally vote SF or the smaller left parties. I can't see any downside for Bacik for the perception to grow that this is a two-horse race between her and Geoghegan.

Will it be another black mark against Harris if he fails to get this seat for FG.

Loafing Oaf · 05-07-2021 9:22pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Who is ahead in the polling, (not paying much attention tbh)

Only opinion poll (AFAIK) shows FG on 27% and Labour on 22. Received wisdom is this would mean a narrow victory for Bacik, given how much more transfer-friendly she is likely to be than Geoghegan.

FF/FG/Green Government - Part 3

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