Madeleine McCann

ozzy jr · 01-11-2018 3:16pm

Something Else

Didn't Kate wash the curtains in the apartment?

Why would anyone do that when they were on holiday :rolleyes:

Deusexmachina · 01-11-2018 3:17pm

gerrybbadd wrote: »

The parents definitely know something. Why would Kate refuse to answer ANY questions that would help in the investigation?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1041635/The-48-questions-Kate-McCann-wouldnt-answer--did.html

Great video here of body language analysis from a Ted talk, spliced with McCann interviews. Obvious tells here. They're lying

What do you think happened?

tretorn · 01-11-2018 3:18pm

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Its not even the randomness of someone kidnapping the children, its also keeping your children safe.

What if the three year old had left and got into the swimming pool, what if she wandered out onto the road carrying one of the smaller ones in her arms.

It was just such a risky thing to do.

Spanish Eyes · 01-11-2018 3:20pm

The other parents in the group at least had baby monitors which they brought to the restaurant. McCanns did not.

It is some mystery alright.

gerrybbadd · 01-11-2018 3:21pm

Something Else

Deusexmachina wrote: »

What do you think happened?

I genuinely have no idea. I do think the kids were sedated. I think however, there may have been an accident leading to Maddie's death, a fall or something along those lines.

SusieBlue · 01-11-2018 3:22pm

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

gerrybbadd wrote: »

The parents definitely know something. Why would Kate refuse to answer ANY questions that would help in the investigation?

Completely incorrect, Kate & Gerry were both extensively questioned on a voluntary basis at the beginning of the investigation.
After they were made "Arguido's" aka official suspects, they were then brought in for questioning again. Their legal adviser advised them not to answer any futher questions at this point.
They were asked the exact same questions as they were asked when there voluntarily. They had already answered all those questions previous to being made arguidos.

iamwhoiam · 01-11-2018 3:25pm

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Deusexmachina wrote: »

I didn't suggest that you are. I am asking you if you think the loss of their little girl is punishment enough for the negligence?
Is it really fair for people to keep castigating them? "Shame on them"

I think it very fair for people to have an opinion Yes

jimwallace197 · 01-11-2018 3:41pm

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

gerrybbadd wrote: »

The parents definitely know something. Why would Kate refuse to answer ANY questions that would help in the investigation?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1041635/The-48-questions-Kate-McCann-wouldnt-answer--did.html

Great video here of body language analysis from a Ted talk, spliced with McCann interviews. Obvious tells here. They're lying

There is a lot of reasons why they may not have answered questions in the police investigation that doesnt make them guilty. How often have we seen detectives manipulate an interrogation to paint a narrative that they have chosen to believe themselves.

In this day and age, I would be very careful in answering any questions the police may ask me in a a situation like this without a solicitor present. The gards/police are not always there to discover the truth, they are there to build a case thay they believe will hold up in court

optimist16 · 01-11-2018 3:42pm

Personally I'm not interested in conspiracy theories. None of us know what happened. I read the evidence with an open mind although I fully expected to believe the McCanns. I don't wish to think ill of anyone and I'm not capable of making it up. There's lots of links here to evidence (not conspiracy theories) that is thoroughly shocking. There is simply too much to cover. Instead of the continuous shaming of those that simply cannot deny the evidence, please read it and then tell us we're wrong. I can't see there's a conclusion to be drawn but I think everyone should know the facts.

SusieBlue · 01-11-2018 3:44pm

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

optimist16 wrote: »

Personally I'm not interested in conspiracy theories. None of us know what happened. I read the evidence with an open mind although I fully expected to believe the McCanns. I don't wish to think ill of anyone and I'm not capable of making it up. There's lots of links here to evidence (not conspiracy theories) that is thoroughly shocking. There is simply too much to cover. Instead of the continuous shaming of those that simply cannot deny the evidence, please read it and then tell us we're wrong. I can't see there's a conclusion to be drawn but I think everyone should know the facts.

I've studied and followed this case extensively for at least 8 years. I still do not believe the parents had any involvement.
I don't believe them to be guilty of anything apart from making a terrible mistake, which they will suffer for for the rest of their lives.

cnocbui · 01-11-2018 3:47pm

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

I let my daughter climb trees - sorry, my bad.

iamwhoiam · 01-11-2018 3:50pm

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

SusieBlue wrote: »

I've studied and followed this case extensively for at least 8 years. I still do not believe the parents had any involvement.
I don't believe them to be guilty of anything apart from making a terrible mistake, which they will suffer for for the rest of their lives.

Personally I think someone knew of the pattern of leaving the kids and either took the opportunity or passed on information . The Mc Canns was the easiest apartment to access and watch from apartments behind it .
Unfortunately it would have been made very easy for someone to take a child once they figured out the pattern . The kids were left in a vulnerable risky situation

iamwhoiam · 01-11-2018 3:53pm

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

cnocbui wrote: »

I let my daughter climb trees - sorry, my bad.

Do you leave her in bed in a house and go out to dinner ? Then that is the comparison that is relevant to this case ?

nc6000 · 01-11-2018 3:58pm

The parents did it

tretorn wrote: »

This was supposed to be a family holiday, ie spending time with your children, not getting them to bed early so they could be left alone. Why didnt they just leave the children at home if they wanted to socialise every night without their three under threes.

Don't forget that the kids were in a creche\daycare facility onsite each day while the parents were doing activities like tennis lessons etc. It's not like they had had them all day before they went out each evening.

Dog Man Star · 01-11-2018 4:00pm

jimwallace197 wrote: »

The investigation was haphazard at best and really showed the ineptitude of the portugese police who in fairness wouldnt have come across many cases like this.

None of that is true. That is exactly what the McCann's projected to the world. It is a very common tactic in cover-ups like this.

The McCanns contacted PR guru Clarence Mitchell, who put this notion out immediately via the press, followed by smearing Rober Murat, an initial suspect, who was cleared soon after.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/sep/18/ukcrime.marketingandpr

tretorn · 01-11-2018 4:01pm

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

I did note that.

It didnt sound like much of a family holiday to me.

SusieBlue · 01-11-2018 4:07pm

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Personally I think someone knew of the pattern of leaving the kids and either took the opportunity or passed on information . The Mc Canns was the easiest apartment to access and watch from apartments behind it .
Unfortunately it would have been made very easy for someone to take a child once they figured out the pattern . The kids were left in a vulnerable risky situation

This is exactly what I think happened too.

Dog Man Star · 01-11-2018 4:14pm

The Portugese police summarised the events like this:

Madeline awoke during the night (as per previous night)
Walked into the living room and possibly fell from the sofa onto the tiled floor (sniffer dog indicated blood behind the sofa), possibly while Gerry was talking to his tennis friend just outside the house.
Gerry discovered Madeline already dead, carried Madeline down to the beach (witnessed by Smith family members)
Informed Kate who went to house and sounded alarm. "They've taken her" was the first thing she said as she ran to the Tapas bar, leaving twins asleep alone in apartment.

Kate and Gerry's phone texts and calls deleted during this period of the night.

At some point after hiring the car, Gerry retrieved the body and drove to final resting place (sniffer dog indicated cadaver in boot of car).

When this happened is the most dubious point, but they were not watched 24/7 and their phones were not tapped, enforced by UK lawmakers and against the Portugese police wishes. They went jogging together most days, which suggests time together to plan.

Just to add, I think what has happened to them is punishment enough and I believe the police feel the same.

Their constant exposure in the media is to continue to avoid suspicion, though this is fading over time as expected. Again, this has happened in many cover-ups in the past, even on the Late Late Show and it not in any way unusual.

Two mortgage payments were made from the fund while they were in Portugal, they did not personally profit from the fund nor the books as far as I know and both have returned to work.

Keyzer · 01-11-2018 4:17pm

Dog Man Star wrote: »

The Portugese police summarised the events like this:

Madeline awoke during the night (as per previous night)
Walked into the living room and possibly fell from the sofa onto the tiled floor (sniffer dog indicated blood behind the sofa), possibly while Gerry was talking to his tennis friend just outside the house.
Gerry discovered Madeline already dead, carried Madeline down to the beach (witnessed by Smith family members)
Informed Kate who went to house and sounded alarm. "They've taken her" was the first thing she said as she ran to the Tapas bar, leaving twins asleep alone in apartment.

Kate and Gerry's phone texts and calls deleted during this period of the night.

At some point after hiring the car, Gerry retrieved the body and drove to final resting place (sniffer dog indicated cadaver in boot of car).

When this happened is the most dubious point, but they were not watched 24/7 and their phones were not tapped, enforced by UK lawmakers and against the Portugese police wishes. They went jogging together most days, which suggests time together to plan.

If thats true, Inspector Clouesau must be running the Portugeuse police force.

Steve F · 01-11-2018 4:19pm

Dog Man Star wrote: »

The Portugese police summarised the events like this:

Madeline awoke during the night (as per previous night)
Walked into the living room and possibly fell from the sofa onto the tiled floor (sniffer dog indicated blood behind the sofa), possibly while Gerry was talking to his tennis friend just outside the house.
Gerry discovered Madeline already dead, carried Madeline down to the beach (witnessed by Smith family members)
Informed Kate who went to house and sounded alarm. "They've taken her" was the first thing she said as she ran to the Tapas bar, leaving twins asleep alone in apartment.

Kate and Gerry's phone texts and calls deleted during this period of the night.

At some point after hiring the car, Gerry retrieved the body and drove to final resting place (sniffer dog indicated cadaver in boot of car).

When this happened is the most dubious point, but they were not watched 24/7 and their phones were not tapped, enforced by UK lawmakers and against the Portugese police wishes. They went jogging together most days, which suggests time together to plan.

Just to add, I think what has happened to them is punishment enough and I believe the police feel the same.

They're constant exposure in the media is to continue to avoid suspicion, though this is fading over time as expected. Again, this has happened in many cover-ups in the past, even on the Late Late Show and it not in any way unusual.

Two mortgage payments were made from the fund while they were in Portugal, they did not personally profit from the fund nor the books as far as I know and both have returned to work.

Do they think other members of the party knew this?

Deusexmachina · 01-11-2018 4:20pm

iamwhoiam wrote: »

I think it very fair for people to have an opinion Yes

Having an opinion is different to expressing that opinion on a Public Forum. (The internet is full of people hating the Mc Canns and producing 'evidence' that they killed their own little girl and magically smuggled out her body and buried her without anyone noticing.)

As a parent, I would be very slow to point the finger at other parents and accuse them of murdering (or accidently killing and disposing of) their own child.

Surely we should only ever do that if we have irrefutable and fully accepted evidence delivered in a Court. Otherwise it is just total speculation and adding to the agony of that poor family.

SusieBlue · 01-11-2018 4:25pm

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Dog Man Star wrote: »

The Portugese police summarised the events like this:

Madeline awoke during the night (as per previous night)
Walked into the living room and possibly fell from the sofa onto the tiled floor (sniffer dog indicated blood behind the sofa), possibly while Gerry was talking to his tennis friend just outside the house.
Gerry discovered Madeline already dead, carried Madeline down to the beach (witnessed by Smith family members)
Informed Kate who went to house and sounded alarm. "They've taken her" was the first thing she said as she ran to the Tapas bar, leaving twins asleep alone in apartment.

Kate and Gerry's phone texts and calls deleted during this period of the night.

At some point after hiring the car, Gerry retrieved the body and drove to final resting place (sniffer dog indicated cadaver in boot of car).

When this happened is the most dubious point, but they were not watched 24/7 and their phones were not tapped, enforced by UK lawmakers and against the Portugese police wishes. They went jogging together most days, which suggests time together to plan.

They were in an unfamiliar location, in a high state of stress, fear and anxiety.

Where on earth could they have disposed of the body to say it still hasn't been found, despite heavy media scrutiny and extensive searching?

I don't find it remotely plausible that they were able to come up with that plan and execute it so seamlessly on a spur of the moment decision upon finding their daughter fatally injured.
Not only that, but that they stuck to their story, and neither one of them has cracked since.

I might find your theory possible, if you were suggesting this was all a pre-planned affair, thought up by Kate & Gerry, even before they left the UK.
That they planned to intentionally neglect their children to the point of causing a fatal accident, and they had thought up a plan to get rid of the body for if that scenario happened.
I mean, its still far fetched, but it would explain how they were able to so thoroughly dispose of the body without being caught while in a state of hysteria.
Otherwise your theory makes no sense.

Dog Man Star · 01-11-2018 4:25pm

Steve F wrote: »

Do they think other members of the party knew this?

No they don't. There was a few changing stories, but they put this down to those having unattended children too. There is no evidence of the group knowing.

The Portugese police reports, witness statements and almost everything else is online. They are hiding nothing. It is all there for you to read.

Kingp35 · 01-11-2018 4:26pm

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Deusexmachina wrote: »

Surely we should only ever do that if we have irrefutable and fully accepted evidence delivered in a Court. Otherwise it is just total speculation and adding to the agony of that poor family.

Unfortunately the case is unsolved so literally everything is speculation. This is a discussion forum and as such various "theories" will be put forward if a case is unsolved. The mods will deal with anything that we believe to be stepping over the line.

iamwhoiam · 01-11-2018 4:28pm

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Deusexmachina wrote: »

Having an opinion is different to expressing that opinion on a Public Forum. (The internet is full of people hating the Mc Canns and producing 'evidence' that they killed their own little girl and magically smuggled out her body and buried her without anyone noticing.)

As a parent, I would be very slow to point the finger at other parents and accuse them of murdering (or accidently killing and disposing of) their own child.

Surely we should only ever do that if we have irrefutable and fully accepted evidence delivered in a Court. Otherwise it is just total speculation and adding to the agony of that poor family.

Read my posts then . Not once did I accuse the Mc Canns of anything other than neglect . Not even they could deny that.

Dog Man Star · 01-11-2018 4:33pm

SusieBlue wrote: »

They were in an unfamiliar location, in a high state of stress, fear and anxiety.

Not unfamiliar, they had been there many times.

SusieBlue wrote: »

Where on earth could they have disposed of the body to say it still hasn't been found, despite heavy media scrutiny and extensive searching?

There are hundreds of thousands of missing people all over the world.

SusieBlue wrote: »

I don't find it remotely plausible that they were able to come up with that plan and execute it so seamlessly on a spur of the moment decision upon finding their daughter fatally injured.
Not only that, but that they stuck to their story, and neither one of them has cracked since.

They have too much to lose to crack. They have changed their story, particularly on opened doors and curtains blowing. See Police reports, all available here: http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk.

The more you read, the less you will believe their story.

But like I said, it's a tragic accident. Time to leave it to rest now.

SusieBlue · 01-11-2018 4:46pm

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Dog Man Star wrote: »

Not unfamiliar, they had been there many times.

I hadn't seen any evidence that they had stayed in that apartment "many times" before, but I'm open to correction. Its irrelevant anyway. They didn't have local knowledge. They were on holidays.
They were not in a position to know where to dump a body.

There are hundreds of thousands of missing people all over the world.

But very, very few in such peculiar circumstances as Madeleine McCann.

They have to much to lose to crack. They have changed their story, particularly on opened doors and curtains blowing. See Police reports, all available here: http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk.

The more you read, the less you will believe their story.

And they have so much more to lose by continuing to push the case in the media spotlight for the last decade, they could be found out at any minute & their "secret" discovered.
Yet they keep pushing for awareness & recognition.
They have garnered so much attention, funding & media coverage that at this point if they're found out, they'd be better off dead themselves because the public would have them for dinner.
Why would they still be publicizing this case, when they have a HUGE secret to hide?
It makes no sense.

But like I said, it's a tragic accident. Time to leave it to rest now.

That remains unproven. This is a discussion forum, we are discussing the case, no need to backseat mod by suggesting we stop talking about it.

Dog Man Star · 01-11-2018 4:56pm

SusieBlue wrote: »

I hadn't seen any evidence that they had stayed in that apartment "many times" before, but I'm open to correction. Its irrelevant anyway. They didn't have local knowledge. They were on holidays.
They were not in a position to know where to dump a body.

But very, very few in such peculiar circumstances as Madeleine McCann.

And they have so much more to lose by continuing to push the case in the media spotlight for the last decade, they could be found out at any minute & their "secret" discovered.
Yet they keep pushing for awareness & recognition.
They have garnered so much attention, funding & media coverage that at this point if they're found out, they'd be better off dead themselves because the public would have them for dinner.
Why would they still be publicizing this case, when they have a HUGE secret to hide?
It makes no sense.

That remains unproven. This is a discussion forum, we are discussing the case, no need to backseat mod by suggesting we stop talking about it.

To discuss the case, you need the details. Read the police files. All your questions will be answered there.

Pete Moss · 01-11-2018 4:58pm

Were the McCanns the only members of their party to leave their door unlocked? I've listened to a couple of podcasts on this case. They all mention the rotating schedule the 'Tapas 9' had for checking on each other's children throughout the evening. One podcast mentions the McCanns to be the only one of the group to leave a door unlocked. I found that odd, especially given if someone was checking on the kids from the other 3 families, they'd require a key to their respective apartments.

It was probably cleared up in 2007, but was there any cctv footage realised by the hotel at all? Or from around the surrounding area?

Also, can someone more familiar with the case confirm what Kate McCann said to Gerry when she returned to the restaurant (without her other 2 kids) having discovered Madeline was missing? One podcast stated she said "we've let her down". Whilst others state she said "they've taken her".

I'm certainly far from an expert in the ins and outs of this case, but her reaction to the discovery her child was missing is quite bizarre. I may be wrong, but my understanding is when she discovered her child was missing, she was quite calm and walked to the restaurant to inform the others, whilst leaving the twins alone. Normally I'd imagine a parent to be quite hysterical in such circumstances - I don't mean to generalise, she might have ice in her veins and keep a calm head, but it seems a strange reaction under the circumstances.

SusieBlue · 01-11-2018 4:59pm

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Dog Man Star wrote: »

To discuss the case, you need the details. Read the police files. All your questions will be answered there.

Don't be so patronising, I've read them, that has what lead me to form my opinions.
My opinion being different to yours does not make it incorrect.
This is an unsolved case, your theory is not more pertinent than mine, just because you say so.

Dog Man Star · 01-11-2018 5:06pm

Pete Moss wrote: »

Were the McCanns the only members of their party to leave their door unlocked? I've listened to a couple of podcasts on this case. They all mention the rotating schedule the 'Tapas 9' had for checking on each other's children throughout the evening. One podcast mentions the McCanns to be the only one of the group to leave a door unlocked. I found that odd, especially given if someone was checking on the kids from the other 3 families, they'd require a key to their respective apartments.

No, the other apartments were unlocked too, with the usual sliding doors.

Also, the McCanns both claimed that the alleged abductor left through the bedroom window with Madeline in his arms, which they claim was opened when they got to the apartment. Upon investigation, the Portugese police discounted their theory as to be too implausible.

The window sill was covered in lichen (similar to moss) which was totally undisturbed.

The bar staff questioned their regular checks. At least one recalled not seeing anyone leaving the bar to check on the children.

The night before Kate McCann stated that both Madeline and one of the twins were crying for some time (also verified by a neighbour) and no one attended to them.

My opinion: the routine checks are highly dubious. Why bother not hiring a babysitter, if regular checks are needed anyway? They weren't short of cash, they could've paid the available babysitter to check on the children.

ozzy jr · 01-11-2018 5:07pm

Something Else

Dog Man Star wrote: »

The Portugese police summarised the events like this:

Madeline awoke during the night (as per previous night)
Walked into the living room and possibly fell from the sofa onto the tiled floor (sniffer dog indicated blood behind the sofa), possibly while Gerry was talking to his tennis friend just outside the house.
Gerry discovered Madeline already dead, carried Madeline down to the beach (witnessed by Smith family members)
Informed Kate who went to house and sounded alarm. "They've taken her" was the first thing she said as she ran to the Tapas bar, leaving twins asleep alone in apartment.

Kate and Gerry's phone texts and calls deleted during this period of the night.

At some point after hiring the car, Gerry retrieved the body and drove to final resting place (sniffer dog indicated cadaver in boot of car).

When this happened is the most dubious point, but they were not watched 24/7 and their phones were not tapped, enforced by UK lawmakers and against the Portugese police wishes. They went jogging together most days, which suggests time together to plan.

Just to add, I think what has happened to them is punishment enough and I believe the police feel the same.

Their constant exposure in the media is to continue to avoid suspicion, though this is fading over time as expected. Again, this has happened in many cover-ups in the past, even on the Late Late Show and it not in any way unusual.

Two mortgage payments were made from the fund while they were in Portugal, they did not personally profit from the fund nor the books as far as I know and both have returned to work.

So. if as above, they've neglected their children, disposed of the body and defrauded the public (by collecting money to help find a missing child).

You and the Portugal Police think they've suffered enough?

If, what you suspect is the events that happened, they should do a prison sentence.

For the record, I think what you say is plausible up to the part where Gerry goes back and retrieves the body.

Dog Man Star · 01-11-2018 5:13pm

SusieBlue wrote: »

Don't be so patronising, I've read them, that has what lead me to form my opinions.
My opinion being different to yours does not make it incorrect.
This is an unsolved case, your theory is not more pertinent than mine, just because you say so.

I don't think you have read them, because you are asking questions that are answered in the files eg. how often they had visited Praia da Luz.

It maybe unsolved, but the police theory is solid and backed up by evidence.

The abduction theory has no evidence at all. No forensic, no witnesses, no circumstantial evidence at all. Not a shred of evidence in fact.

iamwhoiam · 01-11-2018 5:19pm

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Dog Man Star wrote: »

I don't think you have read them, because you are asking questions that are answered in the files eg. how often they had visited Praia da Luz.

It maybe unsolved, but the police theory is solid and backed up by evidence.

The abduction theory has no evidence at all. No forensic, no witnesses, no circumstantial evidence at all. Not a shred of evidence in fact.

When were they in Pda Luz prior to the spring break when Madeleine went missing ?

Dog Man Star · 01-11-2018 5:20pm

ozzy jr wrote: »

So. if as above, they've neglected their children, disposed of the body and defrauded the public (by collecting money to help find a missing child).

You and the Portugal Police think they've suffered enough?

If, what you suspect is the events that happened, they should do a prison sentence.

For the record, I think what you say is plausible up to the part where Gerry goes back and retrieves the body.

It's not what I say, this is the opinion of Detective Goncalo Amaral, who oversaw the investigation. He was sued by the McCanns for publishing his opinion on the case for damages of $450,000, but won his case on appeal.

The McCanns haven't defrauded the public. The money was used for two mortgage payments while they were in Portugal, no different to gofundme.

They should do prison, but I don't think they deserve it, and I believe neither do the police.

Yes, retrieving the body is implausible I agree. The only evidence for this is the cadaver dog signalling the scent in the hire car. I've read a little about the dogs, they obviously don't lie, but a false indication here could mean the body was never moved, which is more plausible.

Theboinkmaster · 01-11-2018 5:24pm

All the lack of evidence points to the most likely:

- Madeleine woke up
- She walked out of the apartment looking for parents, half sleep walking perhaps
- Waked onto road outside of complex
- Hit by a car and killed
- Driver was local and panicked and hid body
- Driver completely unknown to police as complete random accident and cover up

No evidence that parents killed or her she was abducted, so above is most likely scenario IMO.

Dog Man Star · 01-11-2018 5:28pm

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

All the lack of evidence points to the most likely:

- Madeleine woke up
- She walked out of the apartment looking for parents, half sleep walking perhaps
- Waked onto road outside of complex
- Hit by a car and killed
- Driver was local and panicked and hid body
- Driver completely unknown to police as complete random accident and cover up

No evidence that parents killed or her she was abducted, so above is most likely scenario IMO.

There's no evidence at all of a car crash of any description. This is a quiet family resort, an incident like this would have been heard by hundreds of people.

Hoboo · 01-11-2018 5:29pm

Accident happened, parents hid body

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

All the lack of evidence points to the most likely:

- Madeleine woke up
- She walked out of the apartment looking for parents, half sleep walking perhaps
- Waked onto road outside of complex
- Hit by a car and killed
- Driver was local and panicked and hid body
- Driver completely unknown to police as complete random accident and cover up

No evidence that parents killed or her she was abducted, so above is most likely scenario IMO.

Apart from the Smith family from Ireland seeing Gerry carrying a child towards the beach around the time she was supposedly abducted.....

Theboinkmaster · 01-11-2018 5:31pm

Hoboo wrote: »

Apart from the Smith family from Ireland seeing Gerry carrying a child towards the beach around the time she was supposedly abducted.....

That's already been debunked.

Theboinkmaster · 01-11-2018 5:31pm

Dog Man Star wrote: »

There's no evidence at all of a car crash of any description. This is a quiet family resort, an incident like this would have been heard by hundreds of people.

That's the problem though - there is no evidence of what happened.

Therefore I'm just guessing the most likely scenario.

optimist16 · 01-11-2018 5:36pm

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t9527-the-catamaran-trip

SusieBlue · 01-11-2018 5:44pm

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Dog Man Star wrote: »

There's no evidence at all of a car crash of any description. This is a quiet family resort, an incident like this would have been heard by hundreds of people.

On what other previous occasions had the McCann's visited Praia da Luz?

Deusexmachina · 01-11-2018 5:46pm

Kingp35 wrote: »

Unfortunately the case is unsolved so literally everything is speculation. This is a discussion forum and as such various "theories" will be put forward if a case is unsolved. The mods will deal with anything that we believe to be stepping over the line.

The point I am making is that allegations of murder or gross negligence leading to death against the parents are very unfair given the lack of supporting evidence.
I am not suggesting that such speculation should be suppressed. But I am saying it is grossly unfair and cruel.

iamwhoiam · 01-11-2018 5:51pm

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

SusieBlue wrote: »

On what other previous occasions had the McCann's visited Praia da Luz?

As far as I am aware they were not in Pda L prior to 2007 in May

SusieBlue · 01-11-2018 5:52pm

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

iamwhoiam wrote: »

As far as I am aware they were not in Pda L prior to 2007 in May

This was also my understanding but when I questioned it I was dismissed to "read the police files". I also googled it and found nothing to suggest they were regular visitors to the resort.

Muahahaha · 01-11-2018 5:52pm

Just wondering that if the theory that the McCanns had something to do with her murder then how does that fit in with the chronology of events? I dont know the minute details of this so stand to be corrected. But assuming they went to dinner at 7.30pm and returned to the apartment at 9pm then that means they were in view of restaurant staff/customers till that point. Then (assuming again) they return to find Madeline missing they immediately ring the police. So that begs the question as to how they would have found the time to drive the body and bury it?

If the McCanns did have involvement then I cant see any opportunity time wise for them to dispose of a body after returning from the restaurant, it just doesnt add up when the police have been called. Now if they did have something to do with it and they did get rid of the body then that suggests that Madeline was killed (either accidentally/deliberately) in the daytime well before their dinner or even maybe the day before that. Is it known who is the last person to see Madeline alive that was not the McCanns and is it known what time/day they saw her alive?

If it is the case they killed her some hours before their dinner then they might have been using the dinner as a sort of alibi and part of their story. It would also mean that having killed on of their own kids and disposed of the body they then went to dinner with friends, which kind of puts them in psychopath territory.

iamwhoiam · 01-11-2018 5:58pm

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

SusieBlue wrote: »

This was also my understanding but when I questioned it I was dismissed to "read the police files". I also googled it and found nothing to suggest they were regular visitors to the resort.

I am almost sure they had been in Mark Warner resorts before but not in P da Luz

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN.htm

Kate's interview took place on the day after Madeleine's disappearance, 04/05/07 at 2.20pm.

On the subject of the proceedings:

The interviewee was heard as a victim, being the mother of the minor. Of British nationality, she has no command of the Portuguese language, spoken or written. Thus, the interview was done in the presence of an interpreter: Natalia C.F. de A. The interviewee says she has been married to Gerald since December 1998. She has never been to Portugal before. The trip came at the suggestion of friends, who convinced them, at the end of last year, to spend their holiday in Portugal. The trip was organised by David Payne, who made the Praia da Luz Ocean Club reservation on the Internet for the interviewee and her husband, as well as for the rest of the group, a total of 9 adults and eight children, including her daughter Madeleine. She has known some members of the group since the year 2000 and others for a year. She was a colleague of David's wife.

Witness Statement

Gerald Patrick McCann

Date: 2007/05/04

Time 11.15

He comes to the process as a participant and offended party, as the girl's father. Being of British nationality he does not speak Portuguese and is assisted by the interpreter Natalia de Almeida.

When asked he says that he had been in Portugal previously in 1994, staying in an apartment near to Albufeira. This is the first time he has returned to Portugal.

His desire to know Portugal in 1994 was due to the fact of playing golf, as our country is known for the excellent conditions for practising this sport. On this occasion, the trip was proposed by one of his friends who accompanied him, David Payne, who upon searching in Internet, made a reservation at the OC, P da L, Lagos, for the witness, his wife and the rest of the group, a total of nine adults and 8 children, including his daughter Madeleine, this group consists of people he has known for 5 or 6 years.

ozzy jr · 01-11-2018 6:49pm

Something Else

Dog Man Star wrote: »

The McCanns haven't defrauded the public.

Well they have if they're asking for people to contribute to the "find Madeline fund", if they've already disposed of the body.

MonkieSocks · 01-11-2018 7:07pm

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Dog Man Star wrote: »

Also, the McCanns both claimed that the alleged abductor left through the bedroom window with Madeline in his arms, which they claim was opened when they got to the apartment. Upon investigation, the Portugese police discounted their theory as to be too implausible.

Can you link a source where the McCanns said the child was taken through the window. No source has ever said that

McCanns stated that they had left shutters and windows closed, upon leaving.

Upon returning they were both open.

1st independent witness statement

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/AMY-ELLEN-TIERNEY.htm

She confirms that, on the night of the disappearance she was on duty and immediately went to the bedroom to see if the girl was hiding. She saw that the shutter was raised and that the window was partially open. It was then that she began to look in the wardrobes to see if the girl was hiding.

The first idea that occurred to her was that the girl could have left by her own means, however after checking that the window was open and the shutter raised she asked the parents whether Madeleine's shoes were there, to which they replied that they were, these facts led her to think that Madeleine could have been taken by someone.

However there was a bed against the window, which could have enabled the girl to climb up onto it and then up to the window, the witness thinks it would not be possible as she would not be able to open the shutters and even if she had done so she would have fallen outside as the window is too high for a child of that age to be able to descend without falling.

In reply to the question asked, she said that the back door (porta das traseiras) that leads to the parking area was closed, but she doesn't know whether the front door (porta da frente) was locked as when she arrived both the parents and a female friend of theirs whose name she does not know, were there and that is why the door was open.

After having searched the apartment and verified that the girl was not there, the outside searches were begun.

limnam · 01-11-2018 7:21pm

MonkieSocks wrote: »

Can you link a source where the McCanns said the child was taken through the window. No source has ever said that

Do you have the source handy for the McCanns request to the Portuguese police for the drug test btw

Madeleine McCann

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