Madeleine McCann

Dog Man Star · 01-11-2018 05:06PM

Pete Moss wrote: »

Were the McCanns the only members of their party to leave their door unlocked? I've listened to a couple of podcasts on this case. They all mention the rotating schedule the 'Tapas 9' had for checking on each other's children throughout the evening. One podcast mentions the McCanns to be the only one of the group to leave a door unlocked. I found that odd, especially given if someone was checking on the kids from the other 3 families, they'd require a key to their respective apartments.

No, the other apartments were unlocked too, with the usual sliding doors.

Also, the McCanns both claimed that the alleged abductor left through the bedroom window with Madeline in his arms, which they claim was opened when they got to the apartment. Upon investigation, the Portugese police discounted their theory as to be too implausible.

The window sill was covered in lichen (similar to moss) which was totally undisturbed.

The bar staff questioned their regular checks. At least one recalled not seeing anyone leaving the bar to check on the children.

The night before Kate McCann stated that both Madeline and one of the twins were crying for some time (also verified by a neighbour) and no one attended to them.

My opinion: the routine checks are highly dubious. Why bother not hiring a babysitter, if regular checks are needed anyway? They weren't short of cash, they could've paid the available babysitter to check on the children.

ozzy jr · 01-11-2018 05:07PM

Something Else

Dog Man Star wrote: »

The Portugese police summarised the events like this:

Madeline awoke during the night (as per previous night)
Walked into the living room and possibly fell from the sofa onto the tiled floor (sniffer dog indicated blood behind the sofa), possibly while Gerry was talking to his tennis friend just outside the house.
Gerry discovered Madeline already dead, carried Madeline down to the beach (witnessed by Smith family members)
Informed Kate who went to house and sounded alarm. "They've taken her" was the first thing she said as she ran to the Tapas bar, leaving twins asleep alone in apartment.

Kate and Gerry's phone texts and calls deleted during this period of the night.

At some point after hiring the car, Gerry retrieved the body and drove to final resting place (sniffer dog indicated cadaver in boot of car).

When this happened is the most dubious point, but they were not watched 24/7 and their phones were not tapped, enforced by UK lawmakers and against the Portugese police wishes. They went jogging together most days, which suggests time together to plan.

Just to add, I think what has happened to them is punishment enough and I believe the police feel the same.

Their constant exposure in the media is to continue to avoid suspicion, though this is fading over time as expected. Again, this has happened in many cover-ups in the past, even on the Late Late Show and it not in any way unusual.

Two mortgage payments were made from the fund while they were in Portugal, they did not personally profit from the fund nor the books as far as I know and both have returned to work.

So. if as above, they've neglected their children, disposed of the body and defrauded the public (by collecting money to help find a missing child).

You and the Portugal Police think they've suffered enough?

If, what you suspect is the events that happened, they should do a prison sentence.

For the record, I think what you say is plausible up to the part where Gerry goes back and retrieves the body.

Dog Man Star · 01-11-2018 05:13PM

SusieBlue wrote: »

Don't be so patronising, I've read them, that has what lead me to form my opinions.
My opinion being different to yours does not make it incorrect.
This is an unsolved case, your theory is not more pertinent than mine, just because you say so.

I don't think you have read them, because you are asking questions that are answered in the files eg. how often they had visited Praia da Luz.

It maybe unsolved, but the police theory is solid and backed up by evidence.

The abduction theory has no evidence at all. No forensic, no witnesses, no circumstantial evidence at all. Not a shred of evidence in fact.

iamwhoiam · 01-11-2018 05:19PM

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Dog Man Star wrote: »

I don't think you have read them, because you are asking questions that are answered in the files eg. how often they had visited Praia da Luz.

It maybe unsolved, but the police theory is solid and backed up by evidence.

The abduction theory has no evidence at all. No forensic, no witnesses, no circumstantial evidence at all. Not a shred of evidence in fact.

When were they in Pda Luz prior to the spring break when Madeleine went missing ?

Dog Man Star · 01-11-2018 05:20PM

ozzy jr wrote: »

So. if as above, they've neglected their children, disposed of the body and defrauded the public (by collecting money to help find a missing child).

You and the Portugal Police think they've suffered enough?

If, what you suspect is the events that happened, they should do a prison sentence.

For the record, I think what you say is plausible up to the part where Gerry goes back and retrieves the body.

It's not what I say, this is the opinion of Detective Goncalo Amaral, who oversaw the investigation. He was sued by the McCanns for publishing his opinion on the case for damages of $450,000, but won his case on appeal.

The McCanns haven't defrauded the public. The money was used for two mortgage payments while they were in Portugal, no different to gofundme.

They should do prison, but I don't think they deserve it, and I believe neither do the police.

Yes, retrieving the body is implausible I agree. The only evidence for this is the cadaver dog signalling the scent in the hire car. I've read a little about the dogs, they obviously don't lie, but a false indication here could mean the body was never moved, which is more plausible.

Theboinkmaster · 01-11-2018 05:24PM

All the lack of evidence points to the most likely:

- Madeleine woke up
- She walked out of the apartment looking for parents, half sleep walking perhaps
- Waked onto road outside of complex
- Hit by a car and killed
- Driver was local and panicked and hid body
- Driver completely unknown to police as complete random accident and cover up

No evidence that parents killed or her she was abducted, so above is most likely scenario IMO.

Dog Man Star · 01-11-2018 05:28PM

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

All the lack of evidence points to the most likely:

- Madeleine woke up
- She walked out of the apartment looking for parents, half sleep walking perhaps
- Waked onto road outside of complex
- Hit by a car and killed
- Driver was local and panicked and hid body
- Driver completely unknown to police as complete random accident and cover up

No evidence that parents killed or her she was abducted, so above is most likely scenario IMO.

There's no evidence at all of a car crash of any description. This is a quiet family resort, an incident like this would have been heard by hundreds of people.

Hoboo · 01-11-2018 05:29PM

Accident happened, parents hid body

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

All the lack of evidence points to the most likely:

- Madeleine woke up
- She walked out of the apartment looking for parents, half sleep walking perhaps
- Waked onto road outside of complex
- Hit by a car and killed
- Driver was local and panicked and hid body
- Driver completely unknown to police as complete random accident and cover up

No evidence that parents killed or her she was abducted, so above is most likely scenario IMO.

Apart from the Smith family from Ireland seeing Gerry carrying a child towards the beach around the time she was supposedly abducted.....

Theboinkmaster · 01-11-2018 05:31PM

Hoboo wrote: »

Apart from the Smith family from Ireland seeing Gerry carrying a child towards the beach around the time she was supposedly abducted.....

That's already been debunked.

Theboinkmaster · 01-11-2018 05:31PM

Dog Man Star wrote: »

There's no evidence at all of a car crash of any description. This is a quiet family resort, an incident like this would have been heard by hundreds of people.

That's the problem though - there is no evidence of what happened.

Therefore I'm just guessing the most likely scenario.

optimist16 · 01-11-2018 05:36PM

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t9527-the-catamaran-trip

SusieBlue · 01-11-2018 05:44PM

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Dog Man Star wrote: »

There's no evidence at all of a car crash of any description. This is a quiet family resort, an incident like this would have been heard by hundreds of people.

On what other previous occasions had the McCann's visited Praia da Luz?

Deusexmachina · 01-11-2018 05:46PM

Kingp35 wrote: »

Unfortunately the case is unsolved so literally everything is speculation. This is a discussion forum and as such various "theories" will be put forward if a case is unsolved. The mods will deal with anything that we believe to be stepping over the line.

The point I am making is that allegations of murder or gross negligence leading to death against the parents are very unfair given the lack of supporting evidence.
I am not suggesting that such speculation should be suppressed. But I am saying it is grossly unfair and cruel.

iamwhoiam · 01-11-2018 05:51PM

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

SusieBlue wrote: »

On what other previous occasions had the McCann's visited Praia da Luz?

As far as I am aware they were not in Pda L prior to 2007 in May

SusieBlue · 01-11-2018 05:52PM

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

iamwhoiam wrote: »

As far as I am aware they were not in Pda L prior to 2007 in May

This was also my understanding but when I questioned it I was dismissed to "read the police files". I also googled it and found nothing to suggest they were regular visitors to the resort.

Muahahaha · 01-11-2018 05:52PM

Just wondering that if the theory that the McCanns had something to do with her murder then how does that fit in with the chronology of events? I dont know the minute details of this so stand to be corrected. But assuming they went to dinner at 7.30pm and returned to the apartment at 9pm then that means they were in view of restaurant staff/customers till that point. Then (assuming again) they return to find Madeline missing they immediately ring the police. So that begs the question as to how they would have found the time to drive the body and bury it?

If the McCanns did have involvement then I cant see any opportunity time wise for them to dispose of a body after returning from the restaurant, it just doesnt add up when the police have been called. Now if they did have something to do with it and they did get rid of the body then that suggests that Madeline was killed (either accidentally/deliberately) in the daytime well before their dinner or even maybe the day before that. Is it known who is the last person to see Madeline alive that was not the McCanns and is it known what time/day they saw her alive?

If it is the case they killed her some hours before their dinner then they might have been using the dinner as a sort of alibi and part of their story. It would also mean that having killed on of their own kids and disposed of the body they then went to dinner with friends, which kind of puts them in psychopath territory.

iamwhoiam · 01-11-2018 05:58PM

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

SusieBlue wrote: »

This was also my understanding but when I questioned it I was dismissed to "read the police files". I also googled it and found nothing to suggest they were regular visitors to the resort.

I am almost sure they had been in Mark Warner resorts before but not in P da Luz

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN.htm

Kate's interview took place on the day after Madeleine's disappearance, 04/05/07 at 2.20pm.

On the subject of the proceedings:

The interviewee was heard as a victim, being the mother of the minor. Of British nationality, she has no command of the Portuguese language, spoken or written. Thus, the interview was done in the presence of an interpreter: Natalia C.F. de A. The interviewee says she has been married to Gerald since December 1998. She has never been to Portugal before. The trip came at the suggestion of friends, who convinced them, at the end of last year, to spend their holiday in Portugal. The trip was organised by David Payne, who made the Praia da Luz Ocean Club reservation on the Internet for the interviewee and her husband, as well as for the rest of the group, a total of 9 adults and eight children, including her daughter Madeleine. She has known some members of the group since the year 2000 and others for a year. She was a colleague of David's wife.

Witness Statement

Gerald Patrick McCann

Date: 2007/05/04

Time 11.15

He comes to the process as a participant and offended party, as the girl's father. Being of British nationality he does not speak Portuguese and is assisted by the interpreter Natalia de Almeida.

When asked he says that he had been in Portugal previously in 1994, staying in an apartment near to Albufeira. This is the first time he has returned to Portugal.

His desire to know Portugal in 1994 was due to the fact of playing golf, as our country is known for the excellent conditions for practising this sport. On this occasion, the trip was proposed by one of his friends who accompanied him, David Payne, who upon searching in Internet, made a reservation at the OC, P da L, Lagos, for the witness, his wife and the rest of the group, a total of nine adults and 8 children, including his daughter Madeleine, this group consists of people he has known for 5 or 6 years.

ozzy jr · 01-11-2018 06:49PM

Something Else

Dog Man Star wrote: »

The McCanns haven't defrauded the public.

Well they have if they're asking for people to contribute to the "find Madeline fund", if they've already disposed of the body.

MonkieSocks · 01-11-2018 07:07PM

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Dog Man Star wrote: »

Also, the McCanns both claimed that the alleged abductor left through the bedroom window with Madeline in his arms, which they claim was opened when they got to the apartment. Upon investigation, the Portugese police discounted their theory as to be too implausible.

Can you link a source where the McCanns said the child was taken through the window. No source has ever said that

McCanns stated that they had left shutters and windows closed, upon leaving.

Upon returning they were both open.

1st independent witness statement

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/AMY-ELLEN-TIERNEY.htm

She confirms that, on the night of the disappearance she was on duty and immediately went to the bedroom to see if the girl was hiding. She saw that the shutter was raised and that the window was partially open. It was then that she began to look in the wardrobes to see if the girl was hiding.

The first idea that occurred to her was that the girl could have left by her own means, however after checking that the window was open and the shutter raised she asked the parents whether Madeleine's shoes were there, to which they replied that they were, these facts led her to think that Madeleine could have been taken by someone.

However there was a bed against the window, which could have enabled the girl to climb up onto it and then up to the window, the witness thinks it would not be possible as she would not be able to open the shutters and even if she had done so she would have fallen outside as the window is too high for a child of that age to be able to descend without falling.

In reply to the question asked, she said that the back door (porta das traseiras) that leads to the parking area was closed, but she doesn't know whether the front door (porta da frente) was locked as when she arrived both the parents and a female friend of theirs whose name she does not know, were there and that is why the door was open.

After having searched the apartment and verified that the girl was not there, the outside searches were begun.

limnam · 01-11-2018 07:21PM

MonkieSocks wrote: »

Can you link a source where the McCanns said the child was taken through the window. No source has ever said that

Do you have the source handy for the McCanns request to the Portuguese police for the drug test btw

MonkieSocks · 01-11-2018 07:22PM

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

gerrybbadd wrote: »

The parents definitely know something. Why would Kate refuse to answer ANY questions that would help in the investigation?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1041635/The-48-questions-Kate-McCann-wouldnt-answer--did.html

Great video here of body language analysis from a Ted talk, spliced with McCann interviews. Obvious tells here. They're lying

I remember see these experts on TV when Clinton was Banging Monica.

After his denial on TV "Body Language Experts" independently hired by Tv stations in America and Europe, said he was innocent.

Even the Russian experts said he was innocent.

Whe it found out he was lying his ass off, they looked at the videos again and said he was trained in Black Op's to disguise his body language.:eek:

By the way below is the original video, before it was edited by trolls to get at the McCanns

MonkieSocks · 01-11-2018 07:26PM

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

limnam wrote: »

Do you have the source handy for the McCanns request to the Portuguese police for the drug test btw

Don't have it handy

It in here somewhere, can't find the link but it's there

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/

limnam · 01-11-2018 07:27PM

MonkieSocks wrote: »

Upon returning they were both open.

1st independent witness statement

Did someone then close them before the first pictures?

I thought this was how the police found it

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P1/01_VOLUME_Ia_Page_16.jpg

01-11-2018 07:28PM

Deusexmachina wrote: »

Have they not been punished enough?

No. They have retained custody of their other children despite mindless neglect of all of them. They have not been punished nearly enough.

cnocbui · 01-11-2018 07:36PM

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Salvatore Cool BubbleMGS wrote: »

No. They have retained custody of their other children despite mindless neglect of all of them. They have not been punished nearly enough.

Couldn't disagree with you more.

limnam · 01-11-2018 07:37PM

cnocbui wrote: »

Couldn't disagree with you more.

Care to elaborate...

MonkieSocks · 01-11-2018 07:46PM

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

limnam wrote: »

Did someone then close them before the first pictures?

I thought this was how the police found it

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P1/01_VOLUME_Ia_Page_16.jpg

The shutter is actually open in that pic, having previously been all the way down, when the kids were put to bed

Those are the photos taken by the PJ technician Joao Barreiras in the early hours of 4 May. There is a Statement referencing the activity and, from memory, he was/they were active between 01:00 and 03:30/04:00 taking pictures and doing the first fingerprint checks. statement links below.

So from 10pm to 04am anything might have happened,

/

cnocbui · 01-11-2018 08:00PM

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

limnam wrote: »

Care to elaborate...

I couldn't, without getting banned.

Charmeleon · 01-11-2018 08:57PM

Keyzer wrote: »

If thats true, Inspector Clouesau must be running the Portugeuse police force.

As per the accounts of the Portuguese police and the U.S. memo leaked by Wikileaks, it was the British police driving the investigation against the parents. The enhanced sniffer dogs, expert search strategies and lab tests were all British led when the parents were suspects.

MonkieSocks · 02-11-2018 12:55AM

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Charmeleon wrote: »

As per the accounts of the Portuguese police and the U.S. memo leaked by Wikileaks, it was the British police driving the investigation against the parents. The enhanced sniffer dogs, expert search strategies and lab tests were all British led when the parents were suspects.

Dog Trainer Martin Grime's Rogatory Statement

Quote:

CARTAS ROGATORIA 5 Pages 21 to 25
TRANSLATIONS BY CAMERINA32
Translation
DVD Rogatory Letters 3rd volume
Martin Grime
Martin Grime is the dogtrainer.

Keela = CSI dog, alerts only to blood

Eddie = EVRD dog, alerts to blood and human decomposition (cadaverscent)

'The dog EVRD also alerts to blood from a live human being or only from a cadaver'

The dog EVRD is trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. and decomposed cross-contaminants.

The dog will recognize all or parts of a human cadaver.

He is not trained for 'live' human odours; no trained dog will recognize the smell of 'fresh blood'.

They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being.

____________________________

Forensic Report by John Robert Lowe, 18 June 2008

Quote:

OUTROS APENSOS I, volume IIPages 300 to 326Witness Deposition (Criminal Procedure Rules, r27.1 (1); Criminal Justice Act 1967, s.9; Magistrates' Courts Act 1980, s.5B)Deposition of: JOHN ROBERT LOWE BSc CBiol MlBiol RFP Age: Older than 18Profession of Witness: Forensic ScientistAddress of Witness: Forensic Science Service Ltd., Birmingham Laboratory, Priory House, Gooch Street North, Birmingham, B5 6QQWith respect to: References FSS: 300 655 190 / 400 947 125 References Client: 07/06085, 201/07.0GALGS CJS URN:ConclusionIn my opinion, the laboratory results that were attained did not help to clarify whether or not the DNA results obtained within the scope of this case were from Madeleine McCann.

OUTROS APENSOS I, volume II
Pages 300 to 326
Witness Deposition
(Criminal Procedure Rules, r27.1 (1);
Criminal Justice Act 1967, s.9; Magistrates' Courts Act 1980, s.5B)
Deposition of: JOHN ROBERT LOWE BSc CBiol MlBiol RFP Age: Older than 18
Profession of Witness: Forensic Scientist
Address of Witness:
Forensic Science Service Ltd.,
Birmingham Laboratory, Priory House, Gooch Street North,
Birmingham, B5 6QQ
With respect to:
References FSS: 300 655 190 / 400 947 125
References Client: 07/06085, 201/07.0GALGS
CJS URN:
Conclusion
In my opinion, the laboratory results that were attained did not help to clarify whether or not the DNA results obtained within the scope of this case were from Madeleine McCann.

Conclusion

Quote:
To say that the dogs indicated Madeleine's body is a false representation of reality.

Madeleine McCann

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