Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

Greaney · 22-05-2020 7:34pm

eastwest wrote: »

There are a few areas where cycling commuting will be enhanced by the WRT.
All the schools in tuam lie close to it, and st attractas college in tubbercurry has a cycle path linking it to the old railway. I remember hearing a figure of up to 500 students who could commute to school by bike in that location alone.
But you're right, the biggest pluses around this project will be leisure and tourism.

I know children are commuting to school by bike in Athenry, that was since the new school had proper sheltered bike parking, and moved out of town. I work with some teens in the area and my experience is the young people in question never have to take rail because they're within about 3 miles of the school to cycle (roaming radius of young people is not that huge), and they could do with our towns themselves having cycling infrastructure.

It's the kids in Abbeyknockmoy, Ballygluning etc. that live too far to cycle, that would be interested in rail (there's no secondary schools between Tuam & Athenry you see). I've spoken with folk out there & many of them said they'd rather rail. They don't get a voice in a lot of forums so I think many are underestimating their numbers. It made rural living easier to have independent travel for folk with no car like teens, and commuting students, so that households wouldn't need so many cars.

There's a lot to unpack. I'm in favour of exploring other plans for a greeway between Athenry & Tuam personally. We'll be more likely to get a greenway if we have a plan 'b' and 'c'. We're awfully stuck on the former trainline which was to be opened in 2011 and was shelved due to the economic rescession that started in 2007/8.

I have an interest in both cycling & tourism, and the truth is, rural Irelands transport infrastructure is really only for 'cars'. As a parent and someone who has over 20 years working with kids, we're burnt out driving from pillar to post to get them to sports etc. If the distances were walkable or cycleable that'd be great. If not, public transport would be wonderful.

donvito99 · 22-05-2020 7:48pm

Greaney wrote: »

I don't think so.
The distance a person will cycle as a commute verses a rail commute is huge!
A lot of bike users mix rail with their cycle.
Trains are more disability friendly.

These points are ultimately contingent on the usefulness of the service.

Would a railway be more 'useful' to people living along the line than a leisure/recreational or tourist trail which also allows lots of children to cycle to school? And if the railway is more useful, is the enormous cost of reinstating it warranted, in the context of extraordinarily limited resources made available for rail?

The WRC between Ennis and Athenry would suggest that it is not warranted considering what could be done with that €100m, the rolling stock and the drivers.

Greaney · 22-05-2020 8:09pm

donvito99 wrote: »

These points are ultimately contingent on the usefulness of the service.

Would a railway be more 'useful' to people living along the line than a leisure/recreational or tourist trail which also allows lots of children to cycle to school? And if the railway is more useful, is the enormous cost of reinstating it warranted, in the context of extraordinarily limited resources made available for rail?

The WRC between Ennis and Athenry would suggest that it is not warranted considering what could be done with that €100m, the rolling stock and the drivers.

You're asking good questions but I think you're drawing conclusions that mightn't be true. I know folk thought the Westport greenway would facilitate lots of children to cycle to school, but they didn't. I'm sure there are lots of reasons but they just didn't use it. At the end of the day, most folk who advocate for every day cycling like that would rather cyclable towns, and frankly, bike parking!!

As for the Ennis line, I've seen huge growth of use on it personally so I'm honestly stumped at claims to the contrary. I know that it's made Craughwell & Ardrahan real options for families who know they're linked to towns with secondary schools and the need to ferry one's kids is a lot less. I know folk who've bought recently in Gort because of the line and goodness, but there's been a developer trying to get planning for Ardrahan. It could really take off if the Planning Authority allowed estates at the town (the station is walking distance). Often development like housing follows the trainline so it can take a 'generation' for travel paterns to adjust.

ShaneC1600 · 22-05-2020 8:18pm

donvito99 wrote: »

These points are ultimately contingent on the usefulness of the service.

Would a railway be more 'useful' to people living along the line than a leisure/recreational or tourist trail which also allows lots of children to cycle to school? And if the railway is more useful, is the enormous cost of reinstating it warranted, in the context of extraordinarily limited resources made available for rail?

The WRC between Ennis and Athenry would suggest that it is not warranted considering what could be done with that €100m, the rolling stock and the drivers.

In the grand scheme of public infrastructure spending the 100 million euro that was spent on the opened section is nothing, more should have been spent and the line continued to Tuam back then.
Only reason there is talk of a greenway is because of the railway line is there, regardless of location we are told the greenway will be this magical solution to tourism and local amenities. Sure most of the people telling us how great a greenway will be do not live near the line, will use it once for a photo for sure with the result that the line will never see a train again. Hopefully the second line into Galway will help form part of the extension to Tuam.

ezstreet5 · 22-05-2020 9:33pm

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

In the grand scheme of public infrastructure spending the 100 million euro that was spent on the opened section is nothing, more should have been spent and the line continued to Tuam back then.
Only reason there is talk of a greenway is because of the railway line is there, regardless of location we are told the greenway will be this magical solution to tourism and local amenities. Sure most of the people telling us how great a greenway will be do not live near the line, will use it once for a photo for sure with the result that the line will never see a train again. Hopefully the second line into Galway will help form part of the extension to Tuam.

I wholeheartedly agree. The 'gimmick' is the idea that a greenway on the WRC will be a tourist bonanza. A local, (rather giddy) politician was even convinced that such a project would transform Athenry into "a Westport." And then, when the substantial issues of tourism, and (perfectly lovely but) average scenery, and average "see-and-do" potential are interjected into the argument, the greenway suddenly deflates into a local amenity.

In this sense, I must agree with the Government's strategy to develop high-quality greenways with tourist potential. Someone on here finds it significant that the WRC greenway was included in a draft version of the Government's Greenways strategy, but was removed in the final version. This seems perfectly logical to me--that the strategy was adjusted to focus on the best greenways, rather than just the cheapest and easiest ones. You can blame certain individuals for this change, and disparage them, but I might applaud them for their discernment.

And finally, I must comment on the issue of travel demand from Tuam and Claremorris. If you think it it insignificant or zero, I would question your judgement. 20+ busses each way from Tuam to Galway and back does not represent insignificant travel demand. And I am too far from Claremorris to guage that added demand.

TCDStudent1 · 23-05-2020 10:38am

ezstreet5 wrote: »

I wholeheartedly agree. The 'gimmick' is the idea that a greenway on the WRC will be a tourist bonanza. A local, (rather giddy) politician was even convinced that such a project would transform Athenry into "a Westport." And then, when the substantial issues of tourism, and (perfectly lovely but) average scenery, and average "see-and-do" potential are interjected into the argument, the greenway suddenly deflates into a local amenity.

In this sense, I must agree with the Government's strategy to develop high-quality greenways with tourist potential. Someone on here finds it significant that the WRC greenway was included in a draft version of the Government's Greenways strategy, but was removed in the final version. This seems perfectly logical to me--that the strategy was adjusted to focus on the best greenways, rather than just the cheapest and easiest ones. You can blame certain individuals for this change, and disparage them, but I might applaud them for their discernment.

And finally, I must comment on the issue of travel demand from Tuam and Claremorris. If you think it it insignificant or zero, I would question your judgement. 20+ busses each way from Tuam to Galway and back does not represent insignificant travel demand. And I am too far from Claremorris to guage that added demand.

What is wrong with that? It's an area crying out for such an amenity. And the disused railway is the ideal spot to create that amenity. Greenways are about much more than tourism. I would argue that their more important function is that they encourage exercise and provide health benefits to the local population.

westtip · 23-05-2020 10:41am

ezstreet5 wrote: »

Someone on here finds it significant that the WRC greenway was included in a draft version of the Government's Greenways strategy, but was removed in the final version. This seems perfectly logical to me--that the strategy was adjusted to focus on the best greenways, rather than just the cheapest and easiest ones. You can blame certain individuals for this change, and disparage them, but I might applaud them for their discernment.
.

The reason why the Galway-Dublin greenway cannot be completed yet is due to massive arguments over CPOs for the proposed "best" route. We all know the model of closed railway to Greenway works, yes because the land belongs to the state already and yes because the gradient of a closed railway works perfectly; are they they cheapest and easiest option - yes - so that is a good reason to build them, and not sit around navel gazing for another 20 years; let me ask you a question......You refer to best options for greenways, pray tell me is the old railway alignment the "best" option for the railway, in your words wouldn't it

be perfectly logical

to have strategy focused on the best railway route rather than the cheapest and easiest one? Think about it. And by the way this logic applies to all railway projects, fighting for a railway on the inefficient alignment of the Western Rail Corridor is not striving for the best railway network....is it? In truth to have a high speed C21st railway system fully electrified and truly competing with faster express buses there needs to be a wholesale look at the network because just using the old alignments created in C19th is clearly not the best option.

Anway.....There is little doubt what the Department senior civil servants want to see a greenway on the closed railway route, they wrote the Western Rail Trail into the original policy, they are the experts who write the policy and recommend it their minister. Was it truly discernment on the part of Lord Ross to put a red pen through the fabulous greenway network the civil servants recommended in draft one of the greenway strategy making sure the WRT did not happen, or was it instruction on part of his IA colleague. Mmmmm...we all have our views on that one. Go fight for a proper railway!

ShaneC1600 · 23-05-2020 10:59am

westtip wrote: »

You refer to best options for greenways, pray tell me is the old railway alignment the "best" option for the railway, in your words wouldn't it to have strategy focused on the best railway route rather than the cheapest and easiest one? Think about it. And by the way this logic applies to all railway projects, fighting for a railway on the inefficient alignment of the Western Rail Corridor is not striving for the best railway network....is it? In truth to have a high speed C21st railway system fully electrified and truly competing with faster express buses there needs to be a wholesale look at the network because just using the old alignments created in C19th is clearly

That argument might play out on the alignment north of Claremorris, less so between Tuam and Claremorris and not at all between athenry and Tuam. We dont have or are planning for "high speed" rail in the country, why would the WRC need to be?
Constantly putting the alignment down to make the great greenway sound the better option is getting old now. Can the greenway not stand up on it's own merit?
Is map the greenway was shown on the one that looked like a childs sketch?

westtip · 23-05-2020 11:30am

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

Is map the greenway was shown on the one that looked like a childs sketch?

The map in draft one of the national greenway strategy was a schematic, it did not follow the route exactly it was an indicator, however the fact the text of the original greenway strategy actually referred to the Western Rail Trail as a long distance greenway and if my memory serves me right it showed the route you refer to as a childs sketch in a particular colour with a coding under the map which said this colour = using a closed railway route, which seems to indicate a child could work out that the indicated route referred to the closed railway route, so mock as you may with your childs sketch comment, I am splitting my sides.:pac:

Really this all gets rather tiresome when it is pretty clear what the senior civil servants think about this project of railway/greenway options for this route. I would post the map up but just cannot find it at the moment.

ShaneC1600 · 23-05-2020 11:51am

westtip wrote: »

The map in draft one of the national greenway strategy was a schematic, it did not follow the route exactly it was an indicator, however the fact the text of the original greenway strategy actually referred to the Western Rail Trail as a long distance greenway and if my memory serves me right it showed the route you refer to as a childs sketch in a particular colour with a coding under the map which said this colour = using a closed railway route, which seems to indicate a child could work out that the indicated route referred to the closed railway route, so mock as you may with your childs sketch comment, I am splitting my sides.:pac:

Really this all gets rather tiresome when it is pretty clear what the senior civil servants think about this project of railway/greenway options for this route. I would post the map up but just cannot find it at the moment.

As you said, draft 1, that's the thing about drafts, they are subject to change. How do you know what the senior civil servants want? The childs sketch comment was more to do with the way the coloured lines were inputted, its easy to see it was the 1st draft alright. How far did that draft actually go? Is there documents to show who changed their plans?
I wonder would the fact that €10 million + spent out west is better than €100 million + spent out west? Maybe thats the reason civil servants might be leaning one way? These same civil servants have spent more money on planning rail infrastructure that will never happen in dublin than reinstatement of the WRC would have cost if they just did it.

westtip · 23-05-2020 3:29pm

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

How do you know what the senior civil servants want? .

I spoke to them.

ShaneC1600 · 23-05-2020 4:10pm

westtip wrote: »

I spoke to them.

You spoke to all the relevant senior civil servants and they all agree with you? Sure you should have said, it will be a greenway now for sure so.

westtip · 23-05-2020 4:58pm

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

You spoke to all the relevant senior civil servants and they all agree with you? Sure you should have said, it will be a greenway now for sure so.

I will not be drawn on who I spoke to, what I do know is this, the senior civil servant who wrote the report, put the named projects including Western Rail Trail in the strategy. The civil service presented what they saw as the best plan with the resources we have. The Minister took out all named projects, I believe against the advice of his department staff. End of discussion on this matter.

Greaney · 24-05-2020 10:31am

At the end of the day Iarnrod Eireann still 'own' the line. We keep talking about it as if the government just had to say, 'let's do it' and it'll be done. Our National rail company are seeing a huge growth in their 'product' and the demand for more rural public transport is growing also.

I've not yet met an 'everyday' cycling campaigner that would advocate rail to trail on a line that had real potential and had been in the program for government to re-open. Those of us working on 'cycling for all for everyday' transport, health & fitness are not fixated on building the 'Quietman Greenway'.

L1011 · 24-05-2020 10:46am

You'll have trouble finding any cycling campaigner at all that believes there is real potential for the WRC, though

Greaney · 24-05-2020 11:20am

L1011 wrote: »

You'll have trouble finding any cycling campaigner at all that believes there is real potential for the WRC, though

I honestly don't have trouble finding cycling campaigners who belive in the future of rail in the West, and it continuing all the way to Donegal and Derry!! There's a group of us who are pro rail and are involved in cycling campaigns and environmental groups in Galway city and county. We organise the events in our town on bikeweek. I notice that the loudest voices who want the Quietman Greenway in our town, don't turn up!! Indeed the busineses who want the greenway would like tourism, but not actual bikes. Their car park spaces are too precious.

westtip · 25-05-2020 12:23pm

L1011 wrote: »

You'll have trouble finding any cycling campaigner at all that believes there is real potential for the WRC, though

You can add to that list, economist, demographic scientist, realist......the list is endless.

Sam Russell · 25-05-2020 2:30pm

If they do decide to build the line from Tuam to Athenry, will it follow the new motorway, or will it follow the original railtrack?

How much extra will it cost to build it along the motorway route compared to the old alignment?

How much more use would a new alignment be than the old alignment - would it serve more trip generators than the old alignment?

If they decide to go for a new alignment, would it not be better to build the new line to serve Galway City more directly than going via Athenry?

The Limerick to Ballybrophy (via Nenagh) has been cancelled for the time being because of Covid 19, but has been under threat for ages . Surely if that line has closed, why would the Tuam to Athenry line be thought to be worth opening when there are missing bridges, and a complete new railway bed needed, and no towns, houses or clusters? Where will the passengers come from? Neither Tuam nor Athenry are trip generators.

I would have thought a tram service for Galway city (East to West) would be a better use of funds.

galwaytt · 25-05-2020 3:17pm

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

It may be a gimmick but it has a purpose. The status quo of car commuting and scattered one off housing monetising otherwise unproductive land must be preserved at all costs.

Gimmick is a bit strong: tourism is a legitimate enterprise - and right now is on it's knees.

As for the rest, FYP:

The status quo of car commuting and scattered one off housing monetising otherwise unproductive land must be preserved at all costs

The rights of people to live where they want, including where they may have family ties or history, as well as that of personal choice, and then selecting any one of a myriad of transport methods to do so is fundamental.

Otherwise you're just a NIABY - Not In Anyone's Back Yard.

Isambard · 25-05-2020 3:55pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

If they do decide to build the line from Tuam to Athenry, will it follow the new motorway, or will it follow the original railtrack?

How much extra will it cost to build it along the motorway route compared to the old alignment?

How much more use would a new alignment be than the old alignment - would it serve more trip generators than the old alignment?

If they decide to go for a new alignment, would it not be better to build the new line to serve Galway City more directly than going via Athenry?

The Limerick to Ballybrophy (via Nenagh) has been cancelled for the time being because of Covid 19, but has been under threat for ages . Surely if that line has closed, why would the Tuam to Athenry line be thought to be worth opening when there are missing bridges, and a complete new railway bed needed, and no towns, houses or clusters? Where will the passengers come from? Neither Tuam nor Athenry are trip generators.

I would have thought a tram service for Galway city (East to West) would be a better use of funds.

if it didn't use the original route, there would be a flood of applications for brand new Rail lines from multiple towns bigger than Tuam. I can think of quite a few that would want equal treatment.

Your points are entirely valid. There's nothing special about Tuam except it once had a rail service. That applys to a lot of places.

25-05-2020 4:10pm

The motorway, old rail line and existing Tuam Roads are about the only three routes possible, they all took the relatively high, dry land and avoid the rivers and bogs.

Anything new would have to weave around those.

Sam Russell · 25-05-2020 5:10pm

Deleted User wrote: »

The motorway, old rail line and existing Tuam Roads are about the only three routes possible, they all took the relatively high, dry land and avoid the rivers and bogs.

Anything new would have to weave around those.

I was down near Athenry a few years ago when there was a lot of flooding about and I had to turn back because the road was flooded - and not a minor road. Of course the Limerick Ennis Athenry railway is closed often due to flooding.

It was then I realised the truth of the song - 'Low lie the fields of Athenry' because they do lie low and do flood easily. It is all boggy boggy land.

Does anyone know how much it would cost to reinstate the old alignment, and in comparison, how much would a modern fast line serving Galway cost.

westtip · 26-05-2020 7:22am

CrabRevolution wrote: »

While I agree with their aims and the publication of the report, they do themselves no favours by repeatedly pointing out Shane Ross is no longer a TD. It gives the impression they're following the Gemma O'Doherty school of making up your own laws and claiming they're binding. However crap his decisions are; legally Ross is still a minister, so deal with it.

We "deal with it" by not shutting up and continually asking for this dam report, there is no point in being meek and mild and saying please sir can I have some more soup. Pointing out Shane Ross is no longer a TD is a publicity stunt I will go along with that, but it serves a function to remind people of our ludicrous law that if you lose your seat in a general election you can continue to be a Minister, a proxy should be appointed in the event of loss of a seat. His door pass should have been taken off him, adios, goodbye nice knowing you. It is also good to remind Ross over and over again his time is over, Re the reference to Gemma O'Doherty, now this is indeed tantamount to slander, however I will allow myself to see the funny side of it!!!:pac::D:D

Greaney · 28-05-2020 1:52pm

We may all have different interpretations of this headline.

Galway already is linked by motorway from Limerick to Tuam, so one may ask, why do they need rail? To me it shows that powers that be in Galway City, who have to deal with all of the traffic from the county, believes rail is one solution ....

https://connachttribune.ie/city-council-to-apply-for-eu-funding-for-second-rail-track-from-galway-to-athenry/?fbclid=IwAR29Ea7ZA6aAHVdaAvQ4TMStioBQD-O0NxmX9Ohxk3X5Zq0SddvWjwPw10A

Muckyboots · 28-05-2020 5:33pm

Greaney wrote: »

We may all have different interpretations of this headline.
https://connachttribune.ie/city-council-to-apply-for-eu-funding-for-second-rail-track-from-galway-to-athenry/?fbclid=IwAR29Ea7ZA6aAHVdaAvQ4TMStioBQD-O0NxmX9Ohxk3X5Zq0SddvWjwPw10A

Everyone here agrees that Athenry- Galway should be double-tracked. You're being purposely disruptive with a positive and trying to rise the easily risen. That's fair enough though.

ezstreet5 · 28-05-2020 6:23pm

westtip wrote: »

The reason why the Galway-Dublin greenway cannot be completed yet is due to massive arguments over CPOs for the proposed "best" route.

And our Junior Minister fanned those negative flames with no shame, an act I will not soon forgive him for. The civil servant at the time was Liam Gavin, Director of Services for Roads and Transportation Galway Co. Council. He was correct to ask elected officials - such as Cannon - to dial back on their greenway negativity, and that a 40% approval rate for the greenway was actually quite good for a difficult project in its infancy. But Cannon quickly calculated that 60% is greater than 40%, so he continued with his now forgotten “cancel the greenway” campaign. Why did he not roll up his sleeves to work with stakeholders and landowners to improve the route and promote the project? He is the reason there is no greenway crossing Co. Galway. In fact, he so successfully whipped-up anti-greenway sentiment, that the EuroVelo2 route now shows a straight line from Athlone to Galway, because (God forbid), we draw a line on a draft map across a farmer’s property without his non-compulsory agreement to sell.

28-05-2020 11:00pm

Greaney wrote: »

We may all have different interpretations of this headline.

Galway already is linked by motorway from Limerick to Tuam, so one may ask, why do they need rail? To me it shows that powers that be in Galway City, who have to deal with all of the traffic from the county, believes rail is one solution ....

https://connachttribune.ie/city-council-to-apply-for-eu-funding-for-second-rail-track-from-galway-to-athenry/?fbclid=IwAR29Ea7ZA6aAHVdaAvQ4TMStioBQD-O0NxmX9Ohxk3X5Zq0SddvWjwPw10A

Your twisted logic notwithstanding, this is the type of rail development that should be done. Full steam ahead, though its disappointing that its not a plan to double track the whole of the Galway to Dublin line

On a side note, the Article states

The city council will make the application in conjunction with Irish Rail through the European Urban Regeneration Fund .

There is no such fund (that I could find)

ezstreet5 · 28-05-2020 11:32pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Your twisted logic notwithstanding, this is the type of rail development that should be done. Full steam ahead, though its disappointing that its not a plan to double track the whole of the Galway to Dublin line

What other less "twisted" logic can you proffer for the City Council's application for funding for a project that lies wholly outside of their jurisdiction, other than traffic congestion mitigation? I agree that the line should be double-tracked from Galway to Athenry, and nobody should be taking any credit for an Oranmore passing loop half-measure.

29-05-2020 2:01am

ezstreet5 wrote: »

What other less "twisted" logic can you proffer for the City Council's application for funding for a project that lies wholly outside of their jurisdiction, other than traffic congestion mitigation? I agree that the line should be double-tracked from Galway to Athenry, and nobody should be taking any credit for an Oranmore passing loop half-measure.

You misunderstand, I was referring to the fact that poster was trying to equate the application as some sort of vindication for the WRC

westtip · 29-05-2020 3:36pm

Muckyboots wrote: »

Everyone here agrees that Athenry- Galway should be double-tracked. You're being purposely disruptive with a positive and trying to rise the easily risen. That's fair enough though.

Very true and the "anti-rail":pac: greenway campaigners have been saying this very same thing for a long time. Spend money on Rail where it is needed.

ShaneC1600 · 29-05-2020 5:14pm

westtip wrote: »

Very true and the "anti-rail":pac: greenway campaigners have been saying this very same thing for a long time. Spend money on Rail where it is needed.

Equally should spend money on Greenways based on their overall merit, not just because there is a railway there (:

Greaney · 29-05-2020 5:38pm

westtip wrote: »

Very true and the "anti-rail":pac: greenway campaigners have been saying this very same thing for a long time. Spend money on Rail where it is needed.

It's needed all over rural Ireland.
It's needed between the North and the South of Ireland
It's needed in Tuam
It's needed by Galway city that has the worst urban traffic in the country
It's needed to link cities to Airports all over the country

Folk are crying out for rail in Donegal for example and are flabbergast that some, including politicians, would actively campaign against the re-opening of a railway line that was planned to be re-open only recently....

It's recieved wisdom that public transport should be put before tourism needs...

https://www.itic.ie/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/ITIC-Public-Transport-Tourism-Review-June-2016-.pdf

alias no.9 · 29-05-2020 6:43pm

In breaking news it seems that a greenaway is to be built on the broadmeadow rail viaduct between Malahide and Donnabate!

https://www.thejournal.ie/broadmeadown-greenway-planning-permission-fingal-5106835-May2020/

No, they're not closing the Northern Line, it seems you can have both side by side after all.

29-05-2020 6:50pm

Greaney wrote: »

It's recieved wisdom that public transport should be put before tourism needs...

Nope, see attached

Greaney · 29-05-2020 7:28pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Nope, see attached

Well that's the advice of a dutch company our community worked with (I took part as one of the interested parties) about our town design and cycling infrastructure.

Your report still supports the re-opening of the line in it's final statements. I'd say do it sooner rather than later. There's a lot of talk about wasted money, with regard to opening the line. I would argue opening a greenway, and then closing it and turning it into a railway line is a huuuge waste of money.

I would argue at exploring the river easements for greenways is a much wiser spend as we can see, the top 10 German greenways are by water.

I'm interested in exploring the waterways between Athenry & Tuam.. which some work has been done already, interestingly. Most of the historical sites are not on the train line but by the rivers. If we follow the historical sites and rivers it's a much better 'tourist product'.

ShaneC1600 · 29-05-2020 8:56pm

Greaney wrote: »

Well that's the advice of a dutch company our community worked with (I took part as one of the interested parties) about our town design and cycling infrastructure.

Your report still supports the re-opening of the line in it's final statements. I'd say do it sooner rather than later. There's a lot of talk about wasted money, with regard to opening the line. I would argue opening a greenway, and then closing it and turning it into a railway line is a huuuge waste of money.

I would argue at exploring the river easements for greenways is a much wiser spend as we can see, the top 10 German greenways are by water.

I'm interested in exploring the waterways between Athenry & Tuam.. which some work has been done already, interestingly. Most of the historical sites are not on the train line but by the rivers. If we follow the historical sites and rivers it's a much better 'tourist product'.

Who commissioned that report?

Sligo eye · 29-05-2020 9:13pm

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

Who commissioned that report?

Ask Westtip and Eastwest. I’m sure they will know.

westtip · 30-05-2020 12:30pm

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

Who commissioned that report?

Sligo county Council

westtip · 30-05-2020 12:36pm

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

Equally should spend money on Greenways based on their overall merit, not just because there is a railway there (:

go over the arguments as much as you like with tit for tat, it makes no difference, everyone accepted there should be an independent review, west on track welcomed it the greenway supporters welcomed it. Whatever is in it needs to be seen and read. It was written we hope as an independent report not like that nonsense years ago the McCann report which even now still gets an airing, so lets see what it says and then a decision can be made, one way or the other, mind you it will be interesting to see if the PFG has any bearing on the matter. Afterall neither the Greens, FF or FG listed the WRC as a project for completion so somehow I cannot see it being resurected out of thin air on the PFG can anyone??

westtip · 30-05-2020 12:40pm

alias no.9 wrote: »

In breaking news it seems that a greenaway is to be built on the broadmeadow rail viaduct between Malahide and Donnabate!

https://www.thejournal.ie/broadmeadown-greenway-planning-permission-fingal-5106835-May2020/

No, they're not closing the Northern Line, it seems you can have both side by side after all.

And so you should have both on a busy important line such as this one, this is the obvious solution to complete Galway - Dublin greenway. As for comparing this project with the potential of the WRC then please wake up for a reality check, the two do not compare, never will and never did.

ShaneC1600 · 30-05-2020 8:27pm

westtip wrote: »

go over the arguments as much as you like with tit for tat, it makes no difference, everyone accepted there should be an independent review, west on track welcomed it the greenway supporters welcomed it. Whatever is in it needs to be seen and read. It was written we hope as an independent report not like that nonsense years ago the McCann report which even now still gets an airing, so lets see what it says and then a decision can be made, one way or the other, mind you it will be interesting to see if the PFG has any bearing on the matter. Afterall neither the Greens, FF or FG listed the WRC as a project for completion so somehow I cannot see it being resurected out of thin air on the PFG can anyone??

That's all well and good when it suits your agenda. You could say doubling the track is the right spend of public money when compared with reinstatement of the train line between Athenry and Claremorris and imo it's the right spend too, with continuation up the WRC- but hey that's just my opinion. Someone up the country would say the Navan line would be a better spend but everything is relative.
Equally if a comparison was made between spending 15 million on a greenway between Galway and Cliften or on the WRC then Galway to Cliften wins hands down, again that's just my opinion.
Anyways as far as I can see on the QMG Facebook page there is a guy constantly stating the review did not favour the rail line so at least it looks like economically the result will be negative for rail, he must have seen the report because he has stated it alot.

Isambard · 30-05-2020 9:57pm

Greaney wrote: »

It's needed all over rural Ireland.
It's needed between the North and the South of Ireland
It's needed in Tuam
It's needed by Galway city that has the worst urban traffic in the country
It's needed to link cities to Airports all over the country

Folk are crying out for rail in Donegal for example and are flabbergast that some, including politicians, would actively campaign against the re-opening of a railway line that was planned to be re-open only recently....

It's recieved wisdom that public transport should be put before tourism needs...

https://www.itic.ie/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/ITIC-Public-Transport-Tourism-Review-June-2016-.pdf

no doubt it is needed, but then you look at the cost/benefit and decide priorities. The Western Rail Corridor won't be very high on the priorities list.

ezstreet5 · 30-05-2020 10:43pm

westtip wrote: »

go over the arguments as much as you like with tit for tat, it makes no difference, everyone accepted there should be an independent review, west on track welcomed it the greenway supporters welcomed it.

Wha...? Minister Ciaran Cannon's position regarding the rail review was that "It is a complete waste of taxpayers money." He did not welcome it or accept that it should be done, other than the fact that, "We have no choice but to carry out yet another review as it was negotiated by Minister Seán Canney during discussions on the formation of our current government. Consequently, it’s in the Programme for Government and we have to get it done."

https://www.galwaydaily.com/news/western-rail-corridor-is-a-waste-of-money-but-we-have-to-get-it-done-says-minister/

It is irresponsibly poor governance to make decisions regarding major infrastructure projects informed only by a TD's own populist presumption that a train will not pass through the corridor in his lifetime. Granted, he may be referring to his political lifetime.

Greaney · 31-05-2020 11:25am

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

Who commissioned that report?

Are you asking about the report for Sligo Greenway or the project I'm talking about ??

I think folk have already answered the Sligo Greenway report, but the Reimagine project was different. It was a public Participation/community led project to see what the people of Athenry wanted for their town. So those that had their say, were those that turned up.

There's always folk who care enough about their town to turn up on a wet wintery Tuesday night;)

There after, the second, third & fourth stages of the project did outreach to children, a questionaire on line and an interactive open house where one could look at plans, maps etc. and write notes on post-its. It took months. It was originally supposed to be a Galway2020 project but we didn't get the funding so a local coucillor loved the idea and asked to run with it and got leader funding etc. It then became a colaboration with Amicitia (a social enterprise who are interested in sustainable livable communities). It was also notable that concerted efford had to be made to get a few businesses to attend a seperate meeting, as they dont' have a tendancy to turn up to anything either. :rolleyes:

It was brought up on more than one occasion during the process that one should build for the community (not tourism) first, so it addressed the needs of families, children etc.

01-06-2020 2:29am

Greaney wrote: »

Are you asking about the report for Sligo Greenway or the project I'm talking about ??

I think folk have already answered the Sligo Greenway report, but the Reimagine project was different. It was a public Participation/community led project to see what the people of Athenry wanted for their town. So those that had their say, were those that turned up.

There's always folk who care enough about their town to turn up on a wet wintery Tuesday night;)

There after, the second, third & fourth stages of the project did outreach to children, a questionaire on line and an interactive open house where one could look at plans, maps etc. and write notes on post-its. It took months. It was originally supposed to be a Galway2020 project but we didn't get the funding so a local coucillor loved the idea and asked to run with it and got leader funding etc. It then became a colaboration with Amicitia (a social enterprise who are interested in sustainable livable communities). It was also notable that concerted efford had to be made to get a few businesses to attend a seperate meeting, as they dont' have a tendancy to turn up to anything either. :rolleyes:

It was brought up on more than one occasion during the process that one should build for the community (not tourism) first, so it addressed the needs of families, children etc.

I answered a publically funded online survey, which fed into the report asked for by Sean Canney as his price for supporting the last government creation four years ago.

We are still waiting on the report.

It's great that you are active and interested in your town and want to see it develop. I'm sure all of us want to see small town Ireland develop and progress. It doesn't mean that we want to see good money thrown after bad though.

Reopening the Athenry to Tuam railway will deliver poor value for money.
The line itself is slipping into bog where the bog has been drained and too much turf has been extracted.
The railway bridge on the N63 has been removed, without any local protest, and would have to be reinstated, cutting off bigger trucks from the motorway.
The station at Tuam would have to be reinstated at great cost.
The station at Ballyglunin probably wouldn't be reinstated (it is similar to Crusheen - small and served by a motorway)
The line itself would have very limited capacity- maybe running at most one train per hour.
The line it would be joining is already congested, so less capacity to go to Tuam.
The extra areas it would serve are very limited. - Tuam town to the centre of Galway - the existing private bus services collect before and after Tuam and serve employment and trip hotspots like Parkmore (Tuam Road), Liosban / Mervue Industrial Estate and GMIT and NUIG during college terms.

The line further north of Tuam, even in the era of building railways everywhere was built to a much lighter standard and wouldn't take modern trains - it would have to be totally rebuilt.
This line also crosses the main road three times around Ballinrobe.

There is a practical, relatively cheap and quick proposal which would protect the line for future use while generating local amenity. This proposal has generated enough local support to get thousands out for a protest march, nevermind a few showing up at a meeting on a wet Tuesday.

To put it into scale, you reference someone getting leader funding for something. Reopening the railway would take the whole countries leader funding for 2 - 3 years.
The subsidy to keep it open would be more than the whole county receives in Leader funding each year.

An indirect train on a congested route serving a dispersed population while competing with unsubsidised busses and a motorway is very poor value for public money.

Take the money on the table, open the greenway, generate local amenitiy and protect the route for possible future use.

Sligo eye · 01-06-2020 10:51am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I answered a publically funded online survey, which fed into the report asked for by Sean Canney as his price for supporting the last government creation four years ago.

We are still waiting on the report.

It's great that you are active and interested in your town and want to see it develop. I'm sure all of us want to see small town Ireland develop and progress. It doesn't mean that we want to see good money thrown after bad though.

Reopening the Athenry to Tuam railway will deliver poor value for money.
The line itself is slipping into bog where the bog has been drained and too much turf has been extracted.
The railway bridge on the N63 has been removed, without any local protest, and would have to be reinstated, cutting off bigger trucks from the motorway.
The station at Tuam would have to be reinstated at great cost.
The station at Ballyglunin probably wouldn't be reinstated (it is similar to Crusheen - small and served by a motorway)
The line itself would have very limited capacity- maybe running at most one train per hour.
The line it would be joining is already congested, so less capacity to go to Tuam.
The extra areas it would serve are very limited. - Tuam town to the centre of Galway - the existing private bus services collect before and after Tuam and serve employment and trip hotspots like Parkmore (Tuam Road), Liosban / Mervue Industrial Estate and GMIT and NUIG during college terms.

The line further north of Tuam, even in the era of building railways everywhere was built to a much lighter standard and wouldn't take modern trains - it would have to be totally rebuilt.
This line also crosses the main road three times around Ballinrobe.

There is a practical, relatively cheap and quick proposal which would protect the line for future use while generating local amenity. This proposal has generated enough local support to get thousands out for a protest march, nevermind a few showing up at a meeting on a wet Tuesday.

To put it into scale, you reference someone getting leader funding for something. Reopening the railway would take the whole countries leader funding for 2 - 3 years.
The subsidy to keep it open would be more than the whole county receives in Leader funding each year.

An indirect train on a congested route serving a dispersed population while competing with unsubsidised busses and a motorway is very poor value for public money.

Take the money on the table, open the greenway, generate local amenitiy and protect the route for possible future use.

If you actually put figures on your claims of costs that would be helpful. Also your claim of one train per hour doesn’t stack up. With Dart expansion to Maynooth there will be more rolling stock available to run the service and there is no reason why a frequent service would be possible with passing loops.

As to Leader funding, this would not be used for infrastructure funding, the EU has significant funds available that to date Ireland has not accessed.

It’s obvious that the line has to be completely rebuilt, that will not be a factor that would stop the reopening of the line.

The most expensive part of rebuilding any railway line is the procurement of the land. The fact is that the land is there and expanding the railway to Tuam and onward to Sligo fits in well with the Ireland 2040 strategy of development in regional towns.

The real issue with the Greenway proposals is that if one were opened on the route you can be absolutely certain that it will never, ever be brought back as a railway.

One only has to read the contents of the Quietman Greenway and West on Crack Facebook pages to know the real hatred of railways in general amongst the campaigners. If those campaigners get a greenway they will never give back the railway route. If certain people have spent what 15 years denigrating railway as a mode of travel does anyone expect them to meekly hand back the line without a fight?

The greenway campaign should really be looking at alternative off road options for Tuam to Sligo. If they did that I am certain their reputation for being anti rail campaigners would be changed for the better.

end of the road · 01-06-2020 2:04pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Reopening the Athenry to Tuam railway will deliver poor value for money.

on what basis?

Deleted User wrote: »

The line itself is slipping into bog where the bog has been drained and too much turf has been extracted.

can this be verified by someone else, this has never been mentioned until now.

Deleted User wrote: »

The railway bridge on the N63 has been removed, without any local protest, and would have to be reinstated, cutting off bigger trucks from the motorway.

reinstating it wouldn't cut off bigger trucks from the motor way as it would not be reinstated exactly as it was, but would be so taking the motor way and it's users into account. after all, irish rail wouldn't want bridge bashes every 5 seconds.

Deleted User wrote: »

The station at Tuam would have to be reinstated at great cost.

not at that much of a cost, basic platforms and shelters +ticket machines would be enough. a cost yes, but not so great.

Deleted User wrote: »

The station at Ballyglunin probably wouldn't be reinstated (it is similar to Crusheen - small and served by a motorway)

can be done later if there is demand for it.

Deleted User wrote: »

The line itself would have very limited capacity- maybe running at most one train per hour.

some passing loops would do the job.

Deleted User wrote: »

The line it would be joining is already congested, so less capacity to go to Tuam.

capacity needs increasing anyway, so an even bigger incentive to get it done.

end of the road · 01-06-2020 2:20pm

Deleted User wrote: »

The extra areas it would serve are very limited. - Tuam town to the centre of Galway - the existing private bus services collect before and after Tuam and serve employment and trip hotspots like Parkmore (Tuam Road), Liosban / Mervue Industrial Estate and GMIT and NUIG during college terms.

yes, but they will only ever have finite capacity and target a particular market.
hence will only ever be a part solution, rail in some form will be needed if there is intent to grow the town. + if you want to get people out of their cars, then rail based transport is proven to do it.

Deleted User wrote: »

The line further north of Tuam, even in the era of building railways everywhere was built to a much lighter standard and wouldn't take modern trains - it would have to be totally rebuilt.

the reason it would need rebuilding is because it has been out of use for so long, nothing to do with the modernity of the trains.
the line took heavy freight trains up until the late 90s.

Deleted User wrote: »

This line also crosses the main road three times around Ballinrobe.

not that much of an issue.
automatic barrier and heavy fines for idiots missusing it sorts any issue there.

Deleted User wrote: »

There is a practical, relatively cheap and quick proposal which would protect the line for future use while generating local amenity. This proposal has generated enough local support to get thousands out for a protest march, nevermind a few showing up at a meeting on a wet Tuesday.

that means nothing as.
1. we don't know that it actually wil be quick or cheap.
2. local amenities can be put anywhere, small local amenities in the towns on other free land would deliver the same or better.
3. thousands march for a lot of things, how many of those who are actually from the area is probably unknown. god knows i have signed petitions for example for projects from other counties even to the uk because i happened to support and agree that those projects should be done.

Deleted User wrote: »

To put it into scale, you reference someone getting leader funding for something. Reopening the railway would take the whole countries leader funding for 2 - 3 years.

we don't know the exact costs of reopening so that is i would suggest just speculation.

Deleted User wrote: »

E]The subsidy to keep it open would be more than the whole county receives in Leader funding each year.

we don't know what the subsidy would be so again i would suggest that is just speculation.

Deleted User wrote: »

An indirect train on a congested route serving a dispersed population while competing with unsubsidised busses and a motorway is very poor value for public money.

it's not that indirect, and as said above the non-subsidized bus routes are only going to be able to target a certain market of people, they will never be thee transport solution but will only be 1 sollution.
also, if push came to shove, those non-subsidized bus routes could be gone just like that, a subsidized train route on the other hand is much harder to lose.
the existence of a non-subsidized bus route is not an argument against rail.

Deleted User wrote: »

Take the money on the table, open the greenway, generate local amenitiy and protect the route for possible future use.

take the money perhapse, however local amenities can be built elsewhere, this greenway offers nothing, greenways with actual potential elsewhere.
you haven't put forward anything in argument against the reopening of the rail line, only that it will cost money, which we know and is not of itself an argument.

Sam Russell · 01-06-2020 2:21pm

If one were to be building a new rail connection between Tuam and Galway, would it not be better to build it along the N83 (old N17) which is 35 km, open countryside for the most part, and direct. Google gives the time for a car as 35 mins and 33 km, and surely a modern train on a new alignment would beat that. Put a few P&R stops along the way, and it might make sense.

I think the old alignment makes no sense at all as it is a long way round (46 km vs 33 km), needs a complete rebuild, and there are no trip generators, nor any locals to use it. Plus the Athenry to Galway line needs to be upgraded (but that is needed anyway).

Sligo eye · 01-06-2020 2:38pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

If one were to be building a new rail connection between Tuam and Galway, would it not be better to build it along the N83 (old N17) which is 35 km, open countryside for the most part, and direct. Google gives the time for a car as 35 mins and 33 km, and surely a modern train on a new alignment would beat that. Put a few P&R stops along the way, and it might make sense.

I think the old alignment makes no sense at all as it is a long way round (46 km vs 33 km), needs a complete rebuild, and there are no trip generators, nor any locals to use it. Plus the Athenry to Galway line needs to be upgraded (but that is needed anyway).

I can’t argue with what you are saying Sam, if this were a new road the money would be found to purchase the land, but until the state changes its policy on new railways we have to work with the alignment we have.

Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

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