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Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

[Deleted User]

Carrying on with the discussion as the other thread is full

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2055766866/1

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ezstreet5

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

It may be a gimmick but it has a purpose. The status quo of car commuting and scattered one off housing monetising otherwise unproductive land must be preserved at all costs.

I'm not a fan of one-off housing, nor do I believe a greenway from Athenry to Milltown solves any issue related to commuting.

Lord Glentoran

ezstreet5 wrote: »

greenway = gimmick. Don't become ensnared by it, at the risk of losing years of your life.

It may be a gimmick but it has a purpose. The status quo of car commuting and scattered one off housing monetising otherwise unproductive land must be preserved at all costs.

ezstreet5

greenway = gimmick. Don't become ensnared by it, at the risk of losing years of your life.

westtip

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

The terms of reference for the rail review in 2018 stated the appraisal would be reviewed by both DTTaS and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and an independent body. Have these occured yet? If not the report will not be released.
I know it makes great press releases and pulling one or two quotes from the FOI appeal that suit an agenda is great but it's misleading. Making it sound like there is something untoward about it all the time without stating that it was known the report would be reviewed prior to publication is misleading. Yes it's taking longer than we would all like, yes we all want to see the report but in fairness between the elections and now COVID maybe there are more important things than reviewing the report.

Using Covid and the election as an excuse is not acceptable, Ross should have commissioned this report a long time beforehand and we would be beyond all this now, he didn't even commission it until early 2019 and on a few occasions the likes of Galway Coco on the eve of important votes on the greenway were misled to believe it was imminent, delaying it was all part of the game of kick the can. I was well aware under the terms of section 29 of the FOI act it would be withheld but had no idea the ombudsman would say several times in her report it would be in the public interest to release it, anyone would use those quotes to their advantage. Ross would be well able to say enough is enough I am going to release, but he hasn't, he has reasons only known to himself. Who knows where he has taken his orders from on this one. We don't know what is in the report, it may say the railway is the best idea since sliced bread, but both sides of this debate should be allowed to see what this much demanded for independent report actually says; the most telling comment from the ombudsman is that she will not allow it to be buried forever even if the review does not happen at some point because of the comments in this judgement it will be published. God only knows what it is going to say, my actual primary forecast is that it will be a fudge and we will all be left in limbo with nothing happening which will of course suit those who want to stop the greenway at all costs.

As for referring to the former TD sure don't you know that is all part of the wind up, he is a former TD who is still a minister, and reminding folk of this fact is just a way of saying why do we have to put up this from someone who is no longer a TD. The constitution as ever is to blame!

ShaneC1600

The terms of reference for the rail review in 2018 stated the appraisal would be reviewed by both DTTaS and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and an independent body. Have these occured yet? If not the report will not be released.
I know it makes great press releases and pulling one or two quotes from the FOI appeal that suit an agenda is great but it's misleading. Making it sound like there is something untoward about it all the time without stating that it was known the report would be reviewed prior to publication is misleading. Yes it's taking longer than we would all like, yes we all want to see the report but in fairness between the elections and now COVID maybe there are more important things than reviewing the report.

mayo.mick

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

The flipside of being in office on a caretaker basis is that you're not supposed to do anything controversial or that would be unlikely to command a Dail majority (because a caretaker can't be booted out on a no-confidence motion)

Shame on Shane Ross but it's far from the first time I've felt that sentiment :mad:

Really the report can't be any skin off his nose at this stage no matter what is in it, so is someone leaning on him? Do FG know ('unofficially' of course) that it torpedoes the idea of rail, but they want to keep that quiet to string along some independents with yet more promises of 'studies' or 'reviews' ?

Prime time investigates would have a field day....

Hotblack Desiato

The flipside of being in office on a caretaker basis is that you're not supposed to do anything controversial or that would be unlikely to command a Dail majority (because a caretaker can't be booted out on a no-confidence motion)

Shame on Shane Ross but it's far from the first time I've felt that sentiment :mad:

Really the report can't be any skin off his nose at this stage no matter what is in it, so is someone leaning on him? Do FG know ('unofficially' of course) that it torpedoes the idea of rail, but they want to keep that quiet to string along some independents with yet more promises of 'studies' or 'reviews' ?

CrabRevolution

While I agree with their aims and the publication of the report, they do themselves no favours by repeatedly pointing out Shane Ross is no longer a TD. It gives the impression they're following the Gemma O'Doherty school of making up your own laws and claiming they're binding. However crap his decisions are; legally Ross is still a minister, so deal with it.

westtip

Press release From: The Western Rail Trail campaign May 20th 2020 for immediate release: 546 words (main body text)

• Government negotiating teams denied access to Rail Report following freedom of information appeal to Ombudsman.
• Ombudsman says: “release of a report paid for by public monies would serve the public interest”
• Department of Transport and former TD Shane Ross continue to deny access of report to public and government negotiating teams.

The ombudsman has upheld a Freedom of Information decision by The Department of Transport Tourism and Sport (DTTAS) to withhold a report completed by EY Consulting assessing the economic viability of re-opening the closed railway which runs from Athenry to Claremorris, the so-called ‘western rail corridor.’ The report commissioned in early 2019 cost half a million Euro and was delivered to the DTTAS in November 2019, but its findings have not been made public. A freedom of information request filed by the Western Rail Trail Campaign to the DTTAS last November asking for a copy of the report was refused. The FOI decision was appealed to the Ombudsman in February of this year.

The Western Rail Trail Campaign argues that the closed railway route could be utilised as a greenway protecting the railway route in public ownership until such time as a railway might be possible.

After an extensive review of the case the Ombudsman senior investigation officer, Elizabeth Dolan decided the report could not be released on legal grounds to comply with one section of the Freedom of Information legislation. (Section 29 of the FOI Act)

Brendan Quinn of the Western Rail Trail Campaign said ‘The ombudsman decision came as no surprise on legal grounds; however it was what the Ombudsman stated in her judgement that is much more important.’ She said that ‘release of report would serve this public interest.’*(page 6 FOI report)

Quinn added ‘The EY consulting report cost the taxpayer half a million Euro and the Ombudsman agreed with that part of our appeal which highlighted the cost of the report, and the right of the public to see how their money had been spent. This is confirmed in her judgement.’

‘I also accept that the release of a report paid for by public monies would serve the public interest in ensuring accountability for that expenditure.’* (page 6 FOI report)

The key issue is that the negotiating teams in the Programme for Government are being denied this information on the instruction of a Government Minister, Shane Ross, who is no longer a TD. The report is being denied to all the negotiators, the Green Party, FF and FG members. We are aware that the Green Party has asked for the report but the former TD Shane Ross has blocked access.

Parties with a particular interest in sustainable transport are being asked to sign up to a government while being denied information on the viability of certain transport routes.

The former TD who is still Minister could release the report tomorrow but refuses to do so. In our view, this judgement means the Minister is knowingly acting against the public interest. We know this cannot go on forever as the ombudsman not only said releasing the report would serve the public interest but also added:

‘I would not accept that the report is permanently exempt under section 29’ *(page 7 FOI report)

Quinn concluded ‘The Ombudsman clearly believes it is in the public interest for this report to be released but was constrained legally by the FOI Act. It makes you wonder about the public interest; is it honesty and decency or using the nuances of the law to supress information that is in the public interest. What on earth is going on?’

*direct quotes from case number OIC-61162-L2X4Y0

Copy attached to this press release and also available on Facebook pages of:

Sligomayogreenway campaign
The Quiet Man Greenway campaign
Kiltimagh Greenway Group

ENDS: body text 543 words Contacts: contact via SligoMayogreenway on facebook

devnull

The standard of posting in this thread is well below what we expect around here - I expect it to improve going forward otherwise I'll have to start handing out further sanctions.

- Moderator

Lord Glentoran

donvito99 wrote: »

The impending enslaught of thanks to this post from the pro-WRC brigade will surely deliver a delicious slice of irony.

I’ll be off then Padre. Off on my rounds.

donvito99

Sligo eye wrote: »

Jeekers, I love the way some folks like to lick each other like shared choc ices on this forum.

The impending enslaught of thanks to this post from the pro-WRC brigade will surely deliver a delicious slice of irony.

Sligo eye

donvito99 wrote: »

Pot calling kettle black.

He's saying - quite understandably - that as SF is now the only party pushing the expansion of the WRC, it is fair to associate them with the project, not as bogey men but as proponents.

Jeekers, I love the way some folks like to lick each other like shared choc ices on this forum.

donvito99

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

I’m sure he’s well able to speak for himself.

He already did.

Lord Glentoran

donvito99 wrote: »

Pot calling kettle black.

He's saying - quite understandably - that as SF is now the only party pushing the expansion of the WRC, it is fair to associate them with the project, not as bogey men but as proponents.

I’m sure he’s well able to speak for himself.

donvito99

Sligo eye wrote: »

I’m sure you are trying to make a point there with the funny spellings etc but what that point is even St Brendan himself the patron saint of Commuting and Transport would struggle to understand what it is.

Pot calling kettle black.

He's saying - quite understandably - that as SF is now the only party pushing the expansion of the WRC, it is fair to associate them with the project, not as bogey men but as proponents.

Sligo eye

westtip wrote: »

Ah now Shligo don't ya know da history of this thread and the spoofing around on SF/WOT, not suggesting SF is the bogey man but they are the only party that seems to have a fixation with this West on Track stuff, sure even the Greens dropped the WRC from their manifesto as a named project in both 2016 manifesto and the more recent one in January. Did you not know that, the only party that listed the WRC in their election manifesto was SF, therefore SF/WOT is perfectly legitimate to use in that context, and when you consider it is only SF that try and drive the WOT agenda with public meetings about spoof money from Europe, I am afraid Shligo Aye, the association of SF/WOT is perfectly explainable.

I’m sure you are trying to make a point there with the funny spellings etc but what that point is even St Brendan himself the patron saint of Commuting and Transport would struggle to understand what it is.

westtip

Sligo eye wrote: »

Perhaps 30 years ago there would be some point in using the “SF” bogey man thing as a weapon against whatever. At this stage (and I’m speaking as someone who is not a SF supporter) relying on a “oh but SF” attack is a bit like trying to fire a gun loaded with paper bullets. A lot of bang but no impact.

Ah now Shligo don't ya know da history of this thread and the spoofing around on SF/WOT, not suggesting SF is the bogey man but they are the only party that seems to have a fixation with this West on Track stuff, sure even the Greens dropped the WRC from their manifesto as a named project in both 2016 manifesto and the more recent one in January. Did you not know that, the only party that listed the WRC in their election manifesto was SF, therefore SF/WOT is perfectly legitimate to use in that context, and when you consider it is only SF that try and drive the WOT agenda with public meetings about spoof money from Europe, I am afraid Shligo Aye, the association of SF/WOT is perfectly explainable.

donvito99

end of the road wrote: »

a substantial amount of the electorate would disagree with you.

I don't think SF voters would. The left 'won' the election and SF organised celebratory public meetings up and down the country (the bang)... and can't form a Government (the impact).

end of the road

donvito99 wrote: »

A bit like Sinn Fein

a substantial amount of the electorate would disagree with you.

donvito99

Sligo eye wrote: »

A lot of bang but no impact.

A bit like Sinn Fein

Sligo eye

westtip wrote: »

Ah sure LG where has your sense of humour gone, thought you might pick up on the "WOT spokesperson" mind you from what I recall he truly would be the SF/WOT spokesperson. The whole thing is safe as houses at this stage to be in the PFG to ensure nothing happens.

Perhaps 30 years ago there would be some point in using the “SF” bogey man thing as a weapon against whatever. At this stage (and I’m speaking as someone who is not a SF supporter) relying on a “oh but SF” attack is a bit like trying to fire a gun loaded with paper bullets. A lot of bang but no impact.

westtip

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

Very “informative”.

Ah sure LG where has your sense of humour gone, thought you might pick up on the "WOT spokesperson" mind you from what I recall he truly would be the SF/WOT spokesperson. The whole thing is safe as houses at this stage to be in the PFG to ensure nothing happens.

Lord Glentoran

westtip wrote: »

SF/WOT

Very “informative”.

westtip

intellectual dosser wrote: »

https://www.con-telegraph.ie/2020/05/09/mayo-td-calls-for-fast-tracking-of-rural-infrastructure-in-recovery-drive/

Sinn Fein re-iterating their desire for the WRC completion.

They won the most seats in the last election yet the Government most likely to form will almost certainly favour a greenway.

She clearly doesn't realise the whole thing hinges on the contents of the top secret report into the WRC, if she was properly up to speed on the subject she would be yelling from the rooftops asking for the report, instead she is following the party line in the west as dictated by Gerry "not up for discussion" Murray and Matt " we will get the money from Europe" Carthy. Funny how silent the SF/WOT campaign is in wanting to see that report, I remember the day it was announced I recall the WOT spokesperson in Claremorris saying he welcomed the report and was sure it would come up with a confident recommendation to build the railway, none of us have seen it, it is being kept from us, if it says build the railway get on with it, if it doesn't then lets all move on .....on our bikes.:D

ShaneC1600

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

They won the second largest number of seats in the last election.

The spin must really be working!

Actually they "won" the joint highest number of seats but hey whos counting!
Ceann Comhairle automatically returned so FF didn't "win" that one.
Or spin it another way, SF did have the highest percentage of first preference votes!

intellectual dosser

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

They won the second largest number of seats in the last election.

The spin must really be working!

Ooops!

I guess so!

Hotblack Desiato

intellectual dosser wrote: »

Sinn Fein re-iterating their desire for the WRC completion.

They won the most seats in the last election

They won the second largest number of seats in the last election.

The spin must really be working!

intellectual dosser

marno21 wrote: »

Sinn Fein will be in favour of it until they have to sit down with civil servants who teach them the lesson of what money is and how it works. You can't be in favour of everything in a country with large debt burden, a barely balanced budget (pre-covid) and long term tax sustainability questions.

It's very easy to be pro-WRC with no Government experience hurling from the ditch.

I would agree with you.

However I feel I should state to all thread contributors that I didn't mean to substitute the Valeo debate for a political one

The Green Party are likely to be part of the next Government regardless of who their partners are. Going off their prospectus' it looks like e-vehicles and cycling are their approaches to transport problems. I think most people on both sides of this discussion would probably grit their teeth and go along with a decision, if one was actually made. So if its going to be Greenway, bring it on.

marno21

Sinn Fein will be in favour of it until they have to sit down with civil servants who teach them the lesson of what money is and how it works. You can't be in favour of everything in a country with large debt burden, a barely balanced budget (pre-covid) and long term tax sustainability questions.

It's very easy to be pro-WRC with no Government experience hurling from the ditch.