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Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

[Deleted User]

Carrying on with the discussion as the other thread is full

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2055766866/1

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Greaney

eastwest wrote: »

There are a few areas where cycling commuting will be enhanced by the WRT.
All the schools in tuam lie close to it, and st attractas college in tubbercurry has a cycle path linking it to the old railway. I remember hearing a figure of up to 500 students who could commute to school by bike in that location alone.
But you're right, the biggest pluses around this project will be leisure and tourism.

I know children are commuting to school by bike in Athenry, that was since the new school had proper sheltered bike parking, and moved out of town. I work with some teens in the area and my experience is the young people in question never have to take rail because they're within about 3 miles of the school to cycle (roaming radius of young people is not that huge), and they could do with our towns themselves having cycling infrastructure.

It's the kids in Abbeyknockmoy, Ballygluning etc. that live too far to cycle, that would be interested in rail (there's no secondary schools between Tuam & Athenry you see). I've spoken with folk out there & many of them said they'd rather rail. They don't get a voice in a lot of forums so I think many are underestimating their numbers. It made rural living easier to have independent travel for folk with no car like teens, and commuting students, so that households wouldn't need so many cars.

There's a lot to unpack. I'm in favour of exploring other plans for a greeway between Athenry & Tuam personally. We'll be more likely to get a greenway if we have a plan 'b' and 'c'. We're awfully stuck on the former trainline which was to be opened in 2011 and was shelved due to the economic rescession that started in 2007/8.

I have an interest in both cycling & tourism, and the truth is, rural Irelands transport infrastructure is really only for 'cars'. As a parent and someone who has over 20 years working with kids, we're burnt out driving from pillar to post to get them to sports etc. If the distances were walkable or cycleable that'd be great. If not, public transport would be wonderful.

donvito99

Greaney wrote: »

I don't think so.
The distance a person will cycle as a commute verses a rail commute is huge!
A lot of bike users mix rail with their cycle.
Trains are more disability friendly.

These points are ultimately contingent on the usefulness of the service.

Would a railway be more 'useful' to people living along the line than a leisure/recreational or tourist trail which also allows lots of children to cycle to school? And if the railway is more useful, is the enormous cost of reinstating it warranted, in the context of extraordinarily limited resources made available for rail?

The WRC between Ennis and Athenry would suggest that it is not warranted considering what could be done with that €100m, the rolling stock and the drivers.

Greaney

donvito99 wrote: »

These points are ultimately contingent on the usefulness of the service.

Would a railway be more 'useful' to people living along the line than a leisure/recreational or tourist trail which also allows lots of children to cycle to school? And if the railway is more useful, is the enormous cost of reinstating it warranted, in the context of extraordinarily limited resources made available for rail?

The WRC between Ennis and Athenry would suggest that it is not warranted considering what could be done with that €100m, the rolling stock and the drivers.

You're asking good questions but I think you're drawing conclusions that mightn't be true. I know folk thought the Westport greenway would facilitate lots of children to cycle to school, but they didn't. I'm sure there are lots of reasons but they just didn't use it. At the end of the day, most folk who advocate for every day cycling like that would rather cyclable towns, and frankly, bike parking!!

As for the Ennis line, I've seen huge growth of use on it personally so I'm honestly stumped at claims to the contrary. I know that it's made Craughwell & Ardrahan real options for families who know they're linked to towns with secondary schools and the need to ferry one's kids is a lot less. I know folk who've bought recently in Gort because of the line and goodness, but there's been a developer trying to get planning for Ardrahan. It could really take off if the Planning Authority allowed estates at the town (the station is walking distance). Often development like housing follows the trainline so it can take a 'generation' for travel paterns to adjust.

ShaneC1600

donvito99 wrote: »

These points are ultimately contingent on the usefulness of the service.

Would a railway be more 'useful' to people living along the line than a leisure/recreational or tourist trail which also allows lots of children to cycle to school? And if the railway is more useful, is the enormous cost of reinstating it warranted, in the context of extraordinarily limited resources made available for rail?

The WRC between Ennis and Athenry would suggest that it is not warranted considering what could be done with that €100m, the rolling stock and the drivers.

In the grand scheme of public infrastructure spending the 100 million euro that was spent on the opened section is nothing, more should have been spent and the line continued to Tuam back then.
Only reason there is talk of a greenway is because of the railway line is there, regardless of location we are told the greenway will be this magical solution to tourism and local amenities. Sure most of the people telling us how great a greenway will be do not live near the line, will use it once for a photo for sure with the result that the line will never see a train again. Hopefully the second line into Galway will help form part of the extension to Tuam.

ezstreet5

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

In the grand scheme of public infrastructure spending the 100 million euro that was spent on the opened section is nothing, more should have been spent and the line continued to Tuam back then.
Only reason there is talk of a greenway is because of the railway line is there, regardless of location we are told the greenway will be this magical solution to tourism and local amenities. Sure most of the people telling us how great a greenway will be do not live near the line, will use it once for a photo for sure with the result that the line will never see a train again. Hopefully the second line into Galway will help form part of the extension to Tuam.

I wholeheartedly agree. The 'gimmick' is the idea that a greenway on the WRC will be a tourist bonanza. A local, (rather giddy) politician was even convinced that such a project would transform Athenry into "a Westport." And then, when the substantial issues of tourism, and (perfectly lovely but) average scenery, and average "see-and-do" potential are interjected into the argument, the greenway suddenly deflates into a local amenity.

In this sense, I must agree with the Government's strategy to develop high-quality greenways with tourist potential. Someone on here finds it significant that the WRC greenway was included in a draft version of the Government's Greenways strategy, but was removed in the final version. This seems perfectly logical to me--that the strategy was adjusted to focus on the best greenways, rather than just the cheapest and easiest ones. You can blame certain individuals for this change, and disparage them, but I might applaud them for their discernment.

And finally, I must comment on the issue of travel demand from Tuam and Claremorris. If you think it it insignificant or zero, I would question your judgement. 20+ busses each way from Tuam to Galway and back does not represent insignificant travel demand. And I am too far from Claremorris to guage that added demand.

TCDStudent1

ezstreet5 wrote: »

I wholeheartedly agree. The 'gimmick' is the idea that a greenway on the WRC will be a tourist bonanza. A local, (rather giddy) politician was even convinced that such a project would transform Athenry into "a Westport." And then, when the substantial issues of tourism, and (perfectly lovely but) average scenery, and average "see-and-do" potential are interjected into the argument, the greenway suddenly deflates into a local amenity.

In this sense, I must agree with the Government's strategy to develop high-quality greenways with tourist potential. Someone on here finds it significant that the WRC greenway was included in a draft version of the Government's Greenways strategy, but was removed in the final version. This seems perfectly logical to me--that the strategy was adjusted to focus on the best greenways, rather than just the cheapest and easiest ones. You can blame certain individuals for this change, and disparage them, but I might applaud them for their discernment.

And finally, I must comment on the issue of travel demand from Tuam and Claremorris. If you think it it insignificant or zero, I would question your judgement. 20+ busses each way from Tuam to Galway and back does not represent insignificant travel demand. And I am too far from Claremorris to guage that added demand.

What is wrong with that? It's an area crying out for such an amenity. And the disused railway is the ideal spot to create that amenity. Greenways are about much more than tourism. I would argue that their more important function is that they encourage exercise and provide health benefits to the local population.

westtip

ezstreet5 wrote: »

Someone on here finds it significant that the WRC greenway was included in a draft version of the Government's Greenways strategy, but was removed in the final version. This seems perfectly logical to me--that the strategy was adjusted to focus on the best greenways, rather than just the cheapest and easiest ones. You can blame certain individuals for this change, and disparage them, but I might applaud them for their discernment.
.

The reason why the Galway-Dublin greenway cannot be completed yet is due to massive arguments over CPOs for the proposed "best" route. We all know the model of closed railway to Greenway works, yes because the land belongs to the state already and yes because the gradient of a closed railway works perfectly; are they they cheapest and easiest option - yes - so that is a good reason to build them, and not sit around navel gazing for another 20 years; let me ask you a question......You refer to best options for greenways, pray tell me is the old railway alignment the "best" option for the railway, in your words wouldn't it

be perfectly logical

to have strategy focused on the best railway route rather than the cheapest and easiest one? Think about it. And by the way this logic applies to all railway projects, fighting for a railway on the inefficient alignment of the Western Rail Corridor is not striving for the best railway network....is it? In truth to have a high speed C21st railway system fully electrified and truly competing with faster express buses there needs to be a wholesale look at the network because just using the old alignments created in C19th is clearly not the best option.

Anway.....There is little doubt what the Department senior civil servants want to see a greenway on the closed railway route, they wrote the Western Rail Trail into the original policy, they are the experts who write the policy and recommend it their minister. Was it truly discernment on the part of Lord Ross to put a red pen through the fabulous greenway network the civil servants recommended in draft one of the greenway strategy making sure the WRT did not happen, or was it instruction on part of his IA colleague. Mmmmm...we all have our views on that one. Go fight for a proper railway!

ShaneC1600

westtip wrote: »

You refer to best options for greenways, pray tell me is the old railway alignment the "best" option for the railway, in your words wouldn't it to have strategy focused on the best railway route rather than the cheapest and easiest one? Think about it. And by the way this logic applies to all railway projects, fighting for a railway on the inefficient alignment of the Western Rail Corridor is not striving for the best railway network....is it? In truth to have a high speed C21st railway system fully electrified and truly competing with faster express buses there needs to be a wholesale look at the network because just using the old alignments created in C19th is clearly

That argument might play out on the alignment north of Claremorris, less so between Tuam and Claremorris and not at all between athenry and Tuam. We dont have or are planning for "high speed" rail in the country, why would the WRC need to be?
Constantly putting the alignment down to make the great greenway sound the better option is getting old now. Can the greenway not stand up on it's own merit?
Is map the greenway was shown on the one that looked like a childs sketch?

westtip

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

Is map the greenway was shown on the one that looked like a childs sketch?

The map in draft one of the national greenway strategy was a schematic, it did not follow the route exactly it was an indicator, however the fact the text of the original greenway strategy actually referred to the Western Rail Trail as a long distance greenway and if my memory serves me right it showed the route you refer to as a childs sketch in a particular colour with a coding under the map which said this colour = using a closed railway route, which seems to indicate a child could work out that the indicated route referred to the closed railway route, so mock as you may with your childs sketch comment, I am splitting my sides.:pac:

Really this all gets rather tiresome when it is pretty clear what the senior civil servants think about this project of railway/greenway options for this route. I would post the map up but just cannot find it at the moment.

ShaneC1600

westtip wrote: »

The map in draft one of the national greenway strategy was a schematic, it did not follow the route exactly it was an indicator, however the fact the text of the original greenway strategy actually referred to the Western Rail Trail as a long distance greenway and if my memory serves me right it showed the route you refer to as a childs sketch in a particular colour with a coding under the map which said this colour = using a closed railway route, which seems to indicate a child could work out that the indicated route referred to the closed railway route, so mock as you may with your childs sketch comment, I am splitting my sides.:pac:

Really this all gets rather tiresome when it is pretty clear what the senior civil servants think about this project of railway/greenway options for this route. I would post the map up but just cannot find it at the moment.

As you said, draft 1, that's the thing about drafts, they are subject to change. How do you know what the senior civil servants want? The childs sketch comment was more to do with the way the coloured lines were inputted, its easy to see it was the 1st draft alright. How far did that draft actually go? Is there documents to show who changed their plans?
I wonder would the fact that €10 million + spent out west is better than €100 million + spent out west? Maybe thats the reason civil servants might be leaning one way? These same civil servants have spent more money on planning rail infrastructure that will never happen in dublin than reinstatement of the WRC would have cost if they just did it.

westtip

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

How do you know what the senior civil servants want? .

I spoke to them.

ShaneC1600

westtip wrote: »

I spoke to them.

You spoke to all the relevant senior civil servants and they all agree with you? Sure you should have said, it will be a greenway now for sure so.

westtip

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

You spoke to all the relevant senior civil servants and they all agree with you? Sure you should have said, it will be a greenway now for sure so.

I will not be drawn on who I spoke to, what I do know is this, the senior civil servant who wrote the report, put the named projects including Western Rail Trail in the strategy. The civil service presented what they saw as the best plan with the resources we have. The Minister took out all named projects, I believe against the advice of his department staff. End of discussion on this matter.

Greaney

At the end of the day Iarnrod Eireann still 'own' the line. We keep talking about it as if the government just had to say, 'let's do it' and it'll be done. Our National rail company are seeing a huge growth in their 'product' and the demand for more rural public transport is growing also.

I've not yet met an 'everyday' cycling campaigner that would advocate rail to trail on a line that had real potential and had been in the program for government to re-open. Those of us working on 'cycling for all for everyday' transport, health & fitness are not fixated on building the 'Quietman Greenway'.

L1011

You'll have trouble finding any cycling campaigner at all that believes there is real potential for the WRC, though

Greaney

L1011 wrote: »

You'll have trouble finding any cycling campaigner at all that believes there is real potential for the WRC, though

I honestly don't have trouble finding cycling campaigners who belive in the future of rail in the West, and it continuing all the way to Donegal and Derry!! There's a group of us who are pro rail and are involved in cycling campaigns and environmental groups in Galway city and county. We organise the events in our town on bikeweek. I notice that the loudest voices who want the Quietman Greenway in our town, don't turn up!! Indeed the busineses who want the greenway would like tourism, but not actual bikes. Their car park spaces are too precious.

westtip

L1011 wrote: »

You'll have trouble finding any cycling campaigner at all that believes there is real potential for the WRC, though

You can add to that list, economist, demographic scientist, realist......the list is endless.

Sam Russell

If they do decide to build the line from Tuam to Athenry, will it follow the new motorway, or will it follow the original railtrack?

How much extra will it cost to build it along the motorway route compared to the old alignment?

How much more use would a new alignment be than the old alignment - would it serve more trip generators than the old alignment?

If they decide to go for a new alignment, would it not be better to build the new line to serve Galway City more directly than going via Athenry?

The Limerick to Ballybrophy (via Nenagh) has been cancelled for the time being because of Covid 19, but has been under threat for ages . Surely if that line has closed, why would the Tuam to Athenry line be thought to be worth opening when there are missing bridges, and a complete new railway bed needed, and no towns, houses or clusters? Where will the passengers come from? Neither Tuam nor Athenry are trip generators.

I would have thought a tram service for Galway city (East to West) would be a better use of funds.

galwaytt

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

It may be a gimmick but it has a purpose. The status quo of car commuting and scattered one off housing monetising otherwise unproductive land must be preserved at all costs.

Gimmick is a bit strong: tourism is a legitimate enterprise - and right now is on it's knees.

As for the rest, FYP:

The status quo of car commuting and scattered one off housing monetising otherwise unproductive land must be preserved at all costs

The rights of people to live where they want, including where they may have family ties or history, as well as that of personal choice, and then selecting any one of a myriad of transport methods to do so is fundamental.

Otherwise you're just a NIABY - Not In Anyone's Back Yard.

Isambard

Sam Russell wrote: »

If they do decide to build the line from Tuam to Athenry, will it follow the new motorway, or will it follow the original railtrack?

How much extra will it cost to build it along the motorway route compared to the old alignment?

How much more use would a new alignment be than the old alignment - would it serve more trip generators than the old alignment?

If they decide to go for a new alignment, would it not be better to build the new line to serve Galway City more directly than going via Athenry?

The Limerick to Ballybrophy (via Nenagh) has been cancelled for the time being because of Covid 19, but has been under threat for ages . Surely if that line has closed, why would the Tuam to Athenry line be thought to be worth opening when there are missing bridges, and a complete new railway bed needed, and no towns, houses or clusters? Where will the passengers come from? Neither Tuam nor Athenry are trip generators.

I would have thought a tram service for Galway city (East to West) would be a better use of funds.

if it didn't use the original route, there would be a flood of applications for brand new Rail lines from multiple towns bigger than Tuam. I can think of quite a few that would want equal treatment.

Your points are entirely valid. There's nothing special about Tuam except it once had a rail service. That applys to a lot of places.

[Deleted User]

The motorway, old rail line and existing Tuam Roads are about the only three routes possible, they all took the relatively high, dry land and avoid the rivers and bogs.

Anything new would have to weave around those.

Sam Russell

Deleted User wrote: »

The motorway, old rail line and existing Tuam Roads are about the only three routes possible, they all took the relatively high, dry land and avoid the rivers and bogs.

Anything new would have to weave around those.

I was down near Athenry a few years ago when there was a lot of flooding about and I had to turn back because the road was flooded - and not a minor road. Of course the Limerick Ennis Athenry railway is closed often due to flooding.

It was then I realised the truth of the song - 'Low lie the fields of Athenry' because they do lie low and do flood easily. It is all boggy boggy land.

Does anyone know how much it would cost to reinstate the old alignment, and in comparison, how much would a modern fast line serving Galway cost.

westtip

CrabRevolution wrote: »

While I agree with their aims and the publication of the report, they do themselves no favours by repeatedly pointing out Shane Ross is no longer a TD. It gives the impression they're following the Gemma O'Doherty school of making up your own laws and claiming they're binding. However crap his decisions are; legally Ross is still a minister, so deal with it.

We "deal with it" by not shutting up and continually asking for this dam report, there is no point in being meek and mild and saying please sir can I have some more soup. Pointing out Shane Ross is no longer a TD is a publicity stunt I will go along with that, but it serves a function to remind people of our ludicrous law that if you lose your seat in a general election you can continue to be a Minister, a proxy should be appointed in the event of loss of a seat. His door pass should have been taken off him, adios, goodbye nice knowing you. It is also good to remind Ross over and over again his time is over, Re the reference to Gemma O'Doherty, now this is indeed tantamount to slander, however I will allow myself to see the funny side of it!!!:pac::D:D

Greaney

We may all have different interpretations of this headline.

Galway already is linked by motorway from Limerick to Tuam, so one may ask, why do they need rail? To me it shows that powers that be in Galway City, who have to deal with all of the traffic from the county, believes rail is one solution ....

https://connachttribune.ie/city-council-to-apply-for-eu-funding-for-second-rail-track-from-galway-to-athenry/?fbclid=IwAR29Ea7ZA6aAHVdaAvQ4TMStioBQD-O0NxmX9Ohxk3X5Zq0SddvWjwPw10A

Muckyboots

Greaney wrote: »

We may all have different interpretations of this headline.
https://connachttribune.ie/city-council-to-apply-for-eu-funding-for-second-rail-track-from-galway-to-athenry/?fbclid=IwAR29Ea7ZA6aAHVdaAvQ4TMStioBQD-O0NxmX9Ohxk3X5Zq0SddvWjwPw10A

Everyone here agrees that Athenry- Galway should be double-tracked. You're being purposely disruptive with a positive and trying to rise the easily risen. That's fair enough though.

ezstreet5

westtip wrote: »

The reason why the Galway-Dublin greenway cannot be completed yet is due to massive arguments over CPOs for the proposed "best" route.

And our Junior Minister fanned those negative flames with no shame, an act I will not soon forgive him for. The civil servant at the time was Liam Gavin, Director of Services for Roads and Transportation Galway Co. Council. He was correct to ask elected officials - such as Cannon - to dial back on their greenway negativity, and that a 40% approval rate for the greenway was actually quite good for a difficult project in its infancy. But Cannon quickly calculated that 60% is greater than 40%, so he continued with his now forgotten “cancel the greenway” campaign. Why did he not roll up his sleeves to work with stakeholders and landowners to improve the route and promote the project? He is the reason there is no greenway crossing Co. Galway. In fact, he so successfully whipped-up anti-greenway sentiment, that the EuroVelo2 route now shows a straight line from Athlone to Galway, because (God forbid), we draw a line on a draft map across a farmer’s property without his non-compulsory agreement to sell.

[Deleted User]

Greaney wrote: »

We may all have different interpretations of this headline.

Galway already is linked by motorway from Limerick to Tuam, so one may ask, why do they need rail? To me it shows that powers that be in Galway City, who have to deal with all of the traffic from the county, believes rail is one solution ....

https://connachttribune.ie/city-council-to-apply-for-eu-funding-for-second-rail-track-from-galway-to-athenry/?fbclid=IwAR29Ea7ZA6aAHVdaAvQ4TMStioBQD-O0NxmX9Ohxk3X5Zq0SddvWjwPw10A

Your twisted logic notwithstanding, this is the type of rail development that should be done. Full steam ahead, though its disappointing that its not a plan to double track the whole of the Galway to Dublin line

On a side note, the Article states

The city council will make the application in conjunction with Irish Rail through the European Urban Regeneration Fund .

There is no such fund (that I could find)

ezstreet5

Deleted User wrote: »

Your twisted logic notwithstanding, this is the type of rail development that should be done. Full steam ahead, though its disappointing that its not a plan to double track the whole of the Galway to Dublin line

What other less "twisted" logic can you proffer for the City Council's application for funding for a project that lies wholly outside of their jurisdiction, other than traffic congestion mitigation? I agree that the line should be double-tracked from Galway to Athenry, and nobody should be taking any credit for an Oranmore passing loop half-measure.

[Deleted User]

ezstreet5 wrote: »

What other less "twisted" logic can you proffer for the City Council's application for funding for a project that lies wholly outside of their jurisdiction, other than traffic congestion mitigation? I agree that the line should be double-tracked from Galway to Athenry, and nobody should be taking any credit for an Oranmore passing loop half-measure.

You misunderstand, I was referring to the fact that poster was trying to equate the application as some sort of vindication for the WRC

westtip

Muckyboots wrote: »

Everyone here agrees that Athenry- Galway should be double-tracked. You're being purposely disruptive with a positive and trying to rise the easily risen. That's fair enough though.

Very true and the "anti-rail":pac: greenway campaigners have been saying this very same thing for a long time. Spend money on Rail where it is needed.