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Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

[Deleted User]

Carrying on with the discussion as the other thread is full

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2055766866/1

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[Deleted User]

Greaney wrote: »

Are you asking about the report for Sligo Greenway or the project I'm talking about ??

I think folk have already answered the Sligo Greenway report, but the Reimagine project was different. It was a public Participation/community led project to see what the people of Athenry wanted for their town. So those that had their say, were those that turned up.

There's always folk who care enough about their town to turn up on a wet wintery Tuesday night;)

There after, the second, third & fourth stages of the project did outreach to children, a questionaire on line and an interactive open house where one could look at plans, maps etc. and write notes on post-its. It took months. It was originally supposed to be a Galway2020 project but we didn't get the funding so a local coucillor loved the idea and asked to run with it and got leader funding etc. It then became a colaboration with Amicitia (a social enterprise who are interested in sustainable livable communities). It was also notable that concerted efford had to be made to get a few businesses to attend a seperate meeting, as they dont' have a tendancy to turn up to anything either. :rolleyes:

It was brought up on more than one occasion during the process that one should build for the community (not tourism) first, so it addressed the needs of families, children etc.

I answered a publically funded online survey, which fed into the report asked for by Sean Canney as his price for supporting the last government creation four years ago.

We are still waiting on the report.

It's great that you are active and interested in your town and want to see it develop. I'm sure all of us want to see small town Ireland develop and progress. It doesn't mean that we want to see good money thrown after bad though.

Reopening the Athenry to Tuam railway will deliver poor value for money.
The line itself is slipping into bog where the bog has been drained and too much turf has been extracted.
The railway bridge on the N63 has been removed, without any local protest, and would have to be reinstated, cutting off bigger trucks from the motorway.
The station at Tuam would have to be reinstated at great cost.
The station at Ballyglunin probably wouldn't be reinstated (it is similar to Crusheen - small and served by a motorway)
The line itself would have very limited capacity- maybe running at most one train per hour.
The line it would be joining is already congested, so less capacity to go to Tuam.
The extra areas it would serve are very limited. - Tuam town to the centre of Galway - the existing private bus services collect before and after Tuam and serve employment and trip hotspots like Parkmore (Tuam Road), Liosban / Mervue Industrial Estate and GMIT and NUIG during college terms.

The line further north of Tuam, even in the era of building railways everywhere was built to a much lighter standard and wouldn't take modern trains - it would have to be totally rebuilt.
This line also crosses the main road three times around Ballinrobe.

There is a practical, relatively cheap and quick proposal which would protect the line for future use while generating local amenity. This proposal has generated enough local support to get thousands out for a protest march, nevermind a few showing up at a meeting on a wet Tuesday.

To put it into scale, you reference someone getting leader funding for something. Reopening the railway would take the whole countries leader funding for 2 - 3 years.
The subsidy to keep it open would be more than the whole county receives in Leader funding each year.

An indirect train on a congested route serving a dispersed population while competing with unsubsidised busses and a motorway is very poor value for public money.

Take the money on the table, open the greenway, generate local amenitiy and protect the route for possible future use.

Greaney

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

Who commissioned that report?

Are you asking about the report for Sligo Greenway or the project I'm talking about ??

I think folk have already answered the Sligo Greenway report, but the Reimagine project was different. It was a public Participation/community led project to see what the people of Athenry wanted for their town. So those that had their say, were those that turned up.

There's always folk who care enough about their town to turn up on a wet wintery Tuesday night;)

There after, the second, third & fourth stages of the project did outreach to children, a questionaire on line and an interactive open house where one could look at plans, maps etc. and write notes on post-its. It took months. It was originally supposed to be a Galway2020 project but we didn't get the funding so a local coucillor loved the idea and asked to run with it and got leader funding etc. It then became a colaboration with Amicitia (a social enterprise who are interested in sustainable livable communities). It was also notable that concerted efford had to be made to get a few businesses to attend a seperate meeting, as they dont' have a tendancy to turn up to anything either. :rolleyes:

It was brought up on more than one occasion during the process that one should build for the community (not tourism) first, so it addressed the needs of families, children etc.

ezstreet5

westtip wrote: »

go over the arguments as much as you like with tit for tat, it makes no difference, everyone accepted there should be an independent review, west on track welcomed it the greenway supporters welcomed it.

Wha...? Minister Ciaran Cannon's position regarding the rail review was that "It is a complete waste of taxpayers money." He did not welcome it or accept that it should be done, other than the fact that, "We have no choice but to carry out yet another review as it was negotiated by Minister Seán Canney during discussions on the formation of our current government. Consequently, it’s in the Programme for Government and we have to get it done."

https://www.galwaydaily.com/news/western-rail-corridor-is-a-waste-of-money-but-we-have-to-get-it-done-says-minister/

It is irresponsibly poor governance to make decisions regarding major infrastructure projects informed only by a TD's own populist presumption that a train will not pass through the corridor in his lifetime. Granted, he may be referring to his political lifetime.

Isambard

Greaney wrote: »

It's needed all over rural Ireland.
It's needed between the North and the South of Ireland
It's needed in Tuam
It's needed by Galway city that has the worst urban traffic in the country
It's needed to link cities to Airports all over the country

Folk are crying out for rail in Donegal for example and are flabbergast that some, including politicians, would actively campaign against the re-opening of a railway line that was planned to be re-open only recently....

It's recieved wisdom that public transport should be put before tourism needs...

https://www.itic.ie/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/ITIC-Public-Transport-Tourism-Review-June-2016-.pdf

no doubt it is needed, but then you look at the cost/benefit and decide priorities. The Western Rail Corridor won't be very high on the priorities list.

ShaneC1600

westtip wrote: »

go over the arguments as much as you like with tit for tat, it makes no difference, everyone accepted there should be an independent review, west on track welcomed it the greenway supporters welcomed it. Whatever is in it needs to be seen and read. It was written we hope as an independent report not like that nonsense years ago the McCann report which even now still gets an airing, so lets see what it says and then a decision can be made, one way or the other, mind you it will be interesting to see if the PFG has any bearing on the matter. Afterall neither the Greens, FF or FG listed the WRC as a project for completion so somehow I cannot see it being resurected out of thin air on the PFG can anyone??

That's all well and good when it suits your agenda. You could say doubling the track is the right spend of public money when compared with reinstatement of the train line between Athenry and Claremorris and imo it's the right spend too, with continuation up the WRC- but hey that's just my opinion. Someone up the country would say the Navan line would be a better spend but everything is relative.
Equally if a comparison was made between spending 15 million on a greenway between Galway and Cliften or on the WRC then Galway to Cliften wins hands down, again that's just my opinion.
Anyways as far as I can see on the QMG Facebook page there is a guy constantly stating the review did not favour the rail line so at least it looks like economically the result will be negative for rail, he must have seen the report because he has stated it alot.

westtip

alias no.9 wrote: »

In breaking news it seems that a greenaway is to be built on the broadmeadow rail viaduct between Malahide and Donnabate!

https://www.thejournal.ie/broadmeadown-greenway-planning-permission-fingal-5106835-May2020/

No, they're not closing the Northern Line, it seems you can have both side by side after all.

And so you should have both on a busy important line such as this one, this is the obvious solution to complete Galway - Dublin greenway. As for comparing this project with the potential of the WRC then please wake up for a reality check, the two do not compare, never will and never did.

westtip

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

Equally should spend money on Greenways based on their overall merit, not just because there is a railway there (:

go over the arguments as much as you like with tit for tat, it makes no difference, everyone accepted there should be an independent review, west on track welcomed it the greenway supporters welcomed it. Whatever is in it needs to be seen and read. It was written we hope as an independent report not like that nonsense years ago the McCann report which even now still gets an airing, so lets see what it says and then a decision can be made, one way or the other, mind you it will be interesting to see if the PFG has any bearing on the matter. Afterall neither the Greens, FF or FG listed the WRC as a project for completion so somehow I cannot see it being resurected out of thin air on the PFG can anyone??

westtip

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

Who commissioned that report?

Sligo county Council

Sligo eye

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

Who commissioned that report?

Ask Westtip and Eastwest. I’m sure they will know.

ShaneC1600

Greaney wrote: »

Well that's the advice of a dutch company our community worked with (I took part as one of the interested parties) about our town design and cycling infrastructure.

Your report still supports the re-opening of the line in it's final statements. I'd say do it sooner rather than later. There's a lot of talk about wasted money, with regard to opening the line. I would argue opening a greenway, and then closing it and turning it into a railway line is a huuuge waste of money.

I would argue at exploring the river easements for greenways is a much wiser spend as we can see, the top 10 German greenways are by water.

I'm interested in exploring the waterways between Athenry & Tuam.. which some work has been done already, interestingly. Most of the historical sites are not on the train line but by the rivers. If we follow the historical sites and rivers it's a much better 'tourist product'.

Who commissioned that report?

Greaney

Deleted User wrote: »

Nope, see attached

Well that's the advice of a dutch company our community worked with (I took part as one of the interested parties) about our town design and cycling infrastructure.

Your report still supports the re-opening of the line in it's final statements. I'd say do it sooner rather than later. There's a lot of talk about wasted money, with regard to opening the line. I would argue opening a greenway, and then closing it and turning it into a railway line is a huuuge waste of money.

I would argue at exploring the river easements for greenways is a much wiser spend as we can see, the top 10 German greenways are by water.

I'm interested in exploring the waterways between Athenry & Tuam.. which some work has been done already, interestingly. Most of the historical sites are not on the train line but by the rivers. If we follow the historical sites and rivers it's a much better 'tourist product'.

[Deleted User]

Greaney wrote: »

It's recieved wisdom that public transport should be put before tourism needs...

Nope, see attached

alias no.9

In breaking news it seems that a greenaway is to be built on the broadmeadow rail viaduct between Malahide and Donnabate!

https://www.thejournal.ie/broadmeadown-greenway-planning-permission-fingal-5106835-May2020/

No, they're not closing the Northern Line, it seems you can have both side by side after all.

Greaney

westtip wrote: »

Very true and the "anti-rail":pac: greenway campaigners have been saying this very same thing for a long time. Spend money on Rail where it is needed.

It's needed all over rural Ireland.
It's needed between the North and the South of Ireland
It's needed in Tuam
It's needed by Galway city that has the worst urban traffic in the country
It's needed to link cities to Airports all over the country

Folk are crying out for rail in Donegal for example and are flabbergast that some, including politicians, would actively campaign against the re-opening of a railway line that was planned to be re-open only recently....

It's recieved wisdom that public transport should be put before tourism needs...

https://www.itic.ie/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/ITIC-Public-Transport-Tourism-Review-June-2016-.pdf

ShaneC1600

westtip wrote: »

Very true and the "anti-rail":pac: greenway campaigners have been saying this very same thing for a long time. Spend money on Rail where it is needed.

Equally should spend money on Greenways based on their overall merit, not just because there is a railway there (:

westtip

Muckyboots wrote: »

Everyone here agrees that Athenry- Galway should be double-tracked. You're being purposely disruptive with a positive and trying to rise the easily risen. That's fair enough though.

Very true and the "anti-rail":pac: greenway campaigners have been saying this very same thing for a long time. Spend money on Rail where it is needed.

[Deleted User]

ezstreet5 wrote: »

What other less "twisted" logic can you proffer for the City Council's application for funding for a project that lies wholly outside of their jurisdiction, other than traffic congestion mitigation? I agree that the line should be double-tracked from Galway to Athenry, and nobody should be taking any credit for an Oranmore passing loop half-measure.

You misunderstand, I was referring to the fact that poster was trying to equate the application as some sort of vindication for the WRC

ezstreet5

Deleted User wrote: »

Your twisted logic notwithstanding, this is the type of rail development that should be done. Full steam ahead, though its disappointing that its not a plan to double track the whole of the Galway to Dublin line

What other less "twisted" logic can you proffer for the City Council's application for funding for a project that lies wholly outside of their jurisdiction, other than traffic congestion mitigation? I agree that the line should be double-tracked from Galway to Athenry, and nobody should be taking any credit for an Oranmore passing loop half-measure.

[Deleted User]

Greaney wrote: »

We may all have different interpretations of this headline.

Galway already is linked by motorway from Limerick to Tuam, so one may ask, why do they need rail? To me it shows that powers that be in Galway City, who have to deal with all of the traffic from the county, believes rail is one solution ....

https://connachttribune.ie/city-council-to-apply-for-eu-funding-for-second-rail-track-from-galway-to-athenry/?fbclid=IwAR29Ea7ZA6aAHVdaAvQ4TMStioBQD-O0NxmX9Ohxk3X5Zq0SddvWjwPw10A

Your twisted logic notwithstanding, this is the type of rail development that should be done. Full steam ahead, though its disappointing that its not a plan to double track the whole of the Galway to Dublin line

On a side note, the Article states

The city council will make the application in conjunction with Irish Rail through the European Urban Regeneration Fund .

There is no such fund (that I could find)

ezstreet5

westtip wrote: »

The reason why the Galway-Dublin greenway cannot be completed yet is due to massive arguments over CPOs for the proposed "best" route.

And our Junior Minister fanned those negative flames with no shame, an act I will not soon forgive him for. The civil servant at the time was Liam Gavin, Director of Services for Roads and Transportation Galway Co. Council. He was correct to ask elected officials - such as Cannon - to dial back on their greenway negativity, and that a 40% approval rate for the greenway was actually quite good for a difficult project in its infancy. But Cannon quickly calculated that 60% is greater than 40%, so he continued with his now forgotten “cancel the greenway” campaign. Why did he not roll up his sleeves to work with stakeholders and landowners to improve the route and promote the project? He is the reason there is no greenway crossing Co. Galway. In fact, he so successfully whipped-up anti-greenway sentiment, that the EuroVelo2 route now shows a straight line from Athlone to Galway, because (God forbid), we draw a line on a draft map across a farmer’s property without his non-compulsory agreement to sell.

Muckyboots

Greaney wrote: »

We may all have different interpretations of this headline.
https://connachttribune.ie/city-council-to-apply-for-eu-funding-for-second-rail-track-from-galway-to-athenry/?fbclid=IwAR29Ea7ZA6aAHVdaAvQ4TMStioBQD-O0NxmX9Ohxk3X5Zq0SddvWjwPw10A

Everyone here agrees that Athenry- Galway should be double-tracked. You're being purposely disruptive with a positive and trying to rise the easily risen. That's fair enough though.

Greaney

We may all have different interpretations of this headline.

Galway already is linked by motorway from Limerick to Tuam, so one may ask, why do they need rail? To me it shows that powers that be in Galway City, who have to deal with all of the traffic from the county, believes rail is one solution ....

https://connachttribune.ie/city-council-to-apply-for-eu-funding-for-second-rail-track-from-galway-to-athenry/?fbclid=IwAR29Ea7ZA6aAHVdaAvQ4TMStioBQD-O0NxmX9Ohxk3X5Zq0SddvWjwPw10A

westtip

CrabRevolution wrote: »

While I agree with their aims and the publication of the report, they do themselves no favours by repeatedly pointing out Shane Ross is no longer a TD. It gives the impression they're following the Gemma O'Doherty school of making up your own laws and claiming they're binding. However crap his decisions are; legally Ross is still a minister, so deal with it.

We "deal with it" by not shutting up and continually asking for this dam report, there is no point in being meek and mild and saying please sir can I have some more soup. Pointing out Shane Ross is no longer a TD is a publicity stunt I will go along with that, but it serves a function to remind people of our ludicrous law that if you lose your seat in a general election you can continue to be a Minister, a proxy should be appointed in the event of loss of a seat. His door pass should have been taken off him, adios, goodbye nice knowing you. It is also good to remind Ross over and over again his time is over, Re the reference to Gemma O'Doherty, now this is indeed tantamount to slander, however I will allow myself to see the funny side of it!!!:pac::D:D

Sam Russell

Deleted User wrote: »

The motorway, old rail line and existing Tuam Roads are about the only three routes possible, they all took the relatively high, dry land and avoid the rivers and bogs.

Anything new would have to weave around those.

I was down near Athenry a few years ago when there was a lot of flooding about and I had to turn back because the road was flooded - and not a minor road. Of course the Limerick Ennis Athenry railway is closed often due to flooding.

It was then I realised the truth of the song - 'Low lie the fields of Athenry' because they do lie low and do flood easily. It is all boggy boggy land.

Does anyone know how much it would cost to reinstate the old alignment, and in comparison, how much would a modern fast line serving Galway cost.

[Deleted User]

The motorway, old rail line and existing Tuam Roads are about the only three routes possible, they all took the relatively high, dry land and avoid the rivers and bogs.

Anything new would have to weave around those.

Isambard

Sam Russell wrote: »

If they do decide to build the line from Tuam to Athenry, will it follow the new motorway, or will it follow the original railtrack?

How much extra will it cost to build it along the motorway route compared to the old alignment?

How much more use would a new alignment be than the old alignment - would it serve more trip generators than the old alignment?

If they decide to go for a new alignment, would it not be better to build the new line to serve Galway City more directly than going via Athenry?

The Limerick to Ballybrophy (via Nenagh) has been cancelled for the time being because of Covid 19, but has been under threat for ages . Surely if that line has closed, why would the Tuam to Athenry line be thought to be worth opening when there are missing bridges, and a complete new railway bed needed, and no towns, houses or clusters? Where will the passengers come from? Neither Tuam nor Athenry are trip generators.

I would have thought a tram service for Galway city (East to West) would be a better use of funds.

if it didn't use the original route, there would be a flood of applications for brand new Rail lines from multiple towns bigger than Tuam. I can think of quite a few that would want equal treatment.

Your points are entirely valid. There's nothing special about Tuam except it once had a rail service. That applys to a lot of places.

galwaytt

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

It may be a gimmick but it has a purpose. The status quo of car commuting and scattered one off housing monetising otherwise unproductive land must be preserved at all costs.

Gimmick is a bit strong: tourism is a legitimate enterprise - and right now is on it's knees.

As for the rest, FYP:

The status quo of car commuting and scattered one off housing monetising otherwise unproductive land must be preserved at all costs

The rights of people to live where they want, including where they may have family ties or history, as well as that of personal choice, and then selecting any one of a myriad of transport methods to do so is fundamental.

Otherwise you're just a NIABY - Not In Anyone's Back Yard.

Sam Russell

If they do decide to build the line from Tuam to Athenry, will it follow the new motorway, or will it follow the original railtrack?

How much extra will it cost to build it along the motorway route compared to the old alignment?

How much more use would a new alignment be than the old alignment - would it serve more trip generators than the old alignment?

If they decide to go for a new alignment, would it not be better to build the new line to serve Galway City more directly than going via Athenry?

The Limerick to Ballybrophy (via Nenagh) has been cancelled for the time being because of Covid 19, but has been under threat for ages . Surely if that line has closed, why would the Tuam to Athenry line be thought to be worth opening when there are missing bridges, and a complete new railway bed needed, and no towns, houses or clusters? Where will the passengers come from? Neither Tuam nor Athenry are trip generators.

I would have thought a tram service for Galway city (East to West) would be a better use of funds.

westtip

L1011 wrote: »

You'll have trouble finding any cycling campaigner at all that believes there is real potential for the WRC, though

You can add to that list, economist, demographic scientist, realist......the list is endless.

Greaney

L1011 wrote: »

You'll have trouble finding any cycling campaigner at all that believes there is real potential for the WRC, though

I honestly don't have trouble finding cycling campaigners who belive in the future of rail in the West, and it continuing all the way to Donegal and Derry!! There's a group of us who are pro rail and are involved in cycling campaigns and environmental groups in Galway city and county. We organise the events in our town on bikeweek. I notice that the loudest voices who want the Quietman Greenway in our town, don't turn up!! Indeed the busineses who want the greenway would like tourism, but not actual bikes. Their car park spaces are too precious.