Replacment for Cessna 172

Negative_G · 28-07-2020 12:43am

California Dreamer wrote: »

Agenda? Jeez take off the tinfoil hat there boomer!!

As someone who made this comment to another poster in a different forum, I am not surprised at the hypocrisy.

California Dreamer wrote: »

Well this was a fairly sweeping statement and said with no actual back up? :eek:

Nice of you to avoid all of the points put to you and counter with yet another baseless inference.

There's no shame in admitting you were wrong. In fact, it would show that you at least have some level of humility.

If you want to engage in a factual discussion, I'm all ears. If you want to continue in deflection and whataboutery then I'm afraid I'm not interested.

You have been exposed as a someone with an agenda. Be a man, take your soup and move on. There is no shame in it.

California Dreamer · 28-07-2020 7:14am

Negative_G wrote: »

As someone who made this comment to another poster in a different forum, I am not surprised at the hypocrisy.

Nice of you to avoid all of the points put to you and counter with yet another baseless inference.

There's no shame in admitting you were wrong. In fact, it would show that you at least have some level of humility.

If you want to engage in a factual discussion, I'm all ears. If you want to continue in deflection and whataboutery then I'm afraid I'm not interested.

You have been exposed as a someone with an agenda. Be a man, take your soup and move on. There is no shame in it.

I am not going to go around in circles with you over a pointless argument, still no agenda. We know where your loyalties lie and that is absolutely fine.

My point was the routing and maybe they did get an overnight jolly to the canaries. Why didn't they just return to Malaga?

roadmaster · 28-07-2020 9:55am

They may not have had permission to fly over northern Africa so they went via a ally & friendly nation instead where there would be problem.

When they first got delivery of the aircraft they flew in to every airport in the country along with several in the UK and Northern Europe. One of the reasons this aircraft was purchased is to provide an emergency airlift capability. The canaries is a major destination for our people so in the case of an emergency repatriation is required its no harm having pilots familiar with the area.

Markcheese · 28-07-2020 10:06am

California Dreamer wrote: »

I am not going to go around in circles with you over a pointless argument, still no agenda. We know where your loyalties lie and that is absolutely fine.

My point was the routing and maybe they did get an overnight jolly to the canaries. Why didn't they just return to Malaga?

I doubt if it was that much of a jolly , they arrived stayed overnight and left next morning ...

Larbre34 · 28-07-2020 5:05pm

California Dreamer wrote: »

I am not going to go around in circles with you over a pointless argument, still no agenda. We know where your loyalties lie and that is absolutely fine.

My point was the routing and maybe they did get an overnight jolly to the canaries. Why didn't they just return to Malaga?

Cos none of your business would be my take on it.

Leonidas BL · 28-07-2020 6:09pm

California Dreamer wrote: »

I am not going to go around in circles with you over a pointless argument, still no agenda. We know where your loyalties lie and that is absolutely fine.

My point was the routing and maybe they did get an overnight jolly to the canaries. Why didn't they just return to Malaga?

You and the like of you are the epitome of the general public's view of the defence forces in this country, pure ignorance...

California Dreamer · 28-07-2020 6:31pm

Leonidas BL wrote: »

You and the like of you are the epitome of the general public's view of the defence forces in this country, pure ignorance...

Actually I am not. I do have a good interest in all things IDF especially the Air Corps. I know they are grossly underfunded and do a great job with very limited resources.

Ignoracnce maybe, a jolly maybe. Then again they might have just wanted to take the long way home. So I threw it out there but you are really making a mountain out of molehill. Varying opinions have been offered all of which seem very plausable.

Manic Moran · 28-07-2020 8:00pm

[MOD]
OK guys, cease fire, return to your corners for a while. We now know why the aircraft went down thataway, and that they had to stop somewhere, wherever it was, seems irrefutable. Attacking each other doesn't get us anywhere[/MOD]

And if they had time for a quick dip at the beach, it didn't seem to detract from the mission. Pilots are mandated a certain amount of rest hours per flight period anyway.

Markcheese · 29-07-2020 1:14pm

As an aside it's 2 or 3 hundred KMS from western Sahara to the canaries over water , is that common enough in a single engine plane ?

sparky42 · 29-07-2020 1:56pm

Markcheese wrote: »

As an aside it's 2 or 3 hundred KMS from western Sahara to the canaries over water , is that common enough in a single engine plane ?

How do you think the three got to the states?

sparky42 · 29-07-2020 6:10pm

An article in the IT regarding the weekend mission:
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/air-corps-uses-newest-craft-to-rotate-troops-in-disputed-african-region-1.4316724#.XyGlqD3JH1o.twitter

Leonidas BL · 29-07-2020 7:40pm

sparky42 wrote: »

An article in the IT regarding the weekend mission:
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/air-corps-uses-newest-craft-to-rotate-troops-in-disputed-african-region-1.4316724#.XyGlqD3JH1o.twitter

Thats really nice to see

jonnybigwallet · 30-07-2020 12:24pm

They should give that plane a military paint job and stick some roundels on it.

source · 30-07-2020 12:35pm

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

They should give that plane a military paint job and stick some roundels on it.

They're kind of a bit busy using it right now to take it out of service for a paint job.

Leonidas BL · 30-07-2020 12:43pm

source wrote: »

They're kind of a bit busy using it right now to take it out of service for a paint job.

I think Jonny is a bit style over substance :P

sparky42 · 30-07-2020 12:44pm

source wrote: »

They're kind of a bit busy using it right now to take it out of service for a paint job.

Of all the things we need to worry about right now, getting it in for a paint job should be well down the list, when the other 3 are here there will be time for that. For now fly it as much as possible (and maybe hope to make the case to the new DOD boss about buying the other spare airframe).

jonnybigwallet · 30-07-2020 5:09pm

That would make inroadsbinto the fighter jets budget.

punchdrunk · 30-07-2020 5:28pm

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

That would make inroadsbinto the fighter jets budget.

We’re not getting jets.

sparky42 · 30-07-2020 5:51pm

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

That would make inroadsbinto the fighter jets budget.

You mean the thing that doesn't exist in any shape, form or intent? Also what fecking jet do you think you can buy for 5 million?

Larbre34 · 30-07-2020 10:58pm

sparky42 wrote: »

You mean the thing that doesn't exist in any shape, form or intent? Also what fecking jet do you think you can buy for 5 million?

An auld Mig-15 from a boneyard in Vietnam.

In all seriousness though, I can't see why we would need 5 x PC-12s. Unless we intend to rotate battalions 35 pax at a time.

All other efforts and resources should now go into acquiring an airliner or large tactical airlift aircraft. My personal view at the moment is to wet lease a Shamrock A321LR and repaint it in Air Corps colours.

sparky42 · 30-07-2020 11:17pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

An auld Mig-15 from a boneyard in Vietnam.

In all seriousness though, I can't see why we would need 5 x PC-12s. Unless we intend to rotate battalions 35 pax at a time.

All other efforts and resources should now go into acquiring an airliner or large tactical airlift aircraft. My personal view at the moment is to wet lease a Shamrock A321LR and repaint it in Air Corps colours.

Keep the 3 ISTAR variants fully dedicated to ISTAR, hopefully look at deploying them out of the state (Mali perhaps?) while keeping the two straight passenger planes for transport of people/goods. I mean for example, the current PC12 had to be used for the EUCO meeting as the Government Jet was down for maintenance, which meant due to the slip of the conference it was tied up for multiple days extra. What if we had another tasking or more than one at the same time?

The few extra million that the second plane was offered would be good value imo and wouldn't be much impact for a lease/buy of a larger aircraft if they can get sign off from DOD.

Larbre34 · 31-07-2020 2:25pm

I accept the logic of it, but realistically are we going to have a) the crews for 5 aircraft to be in use in parallel, or even 4 with a maintenance rotation or b) the requirement for 3 ISTAR deployments at any given time?

sparky42 · 31-07-2020 4:38pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

I accept the logic of it, but realistically are we going to have a) the crews for 5 aircraft to be in use in parallel, or even 4 with a maintenance rotation or b) the requirement for 3 ISTAR deployments at any given time?

Well given we are talking about aircraft that are going to see at least 30 years of service, hopefully during that period the manpower crisis would be worked on, and ideally the establishment figure for the AC and NS increased. Moreover, while we are unlikely to ever have all 3 deployment at the same time, we could see perhaps two (which I think would almost be the bare minimum to be useful which would leave only 1 for training for ISTAR missions, would you really want to have to keep chopping and changing it? Or we might see a transport version deployed with an ISTAR package...

Heraldoffreeent · 31-07-2020 5:12pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

I accept the logic of it, but realistically are we going to have a) the crews for 5 aircraft to be in use in parallel, or even 4 with a maintenance rotation or b) the requirement for 3 ISTAR deployments at any given time?

Rule of three though, isn't it?
One in the air or on standby, one training and one in maintanance.

Psychlops · 31-07-2020 7:41pm

Some pics of the other birds in America.

https://skippyscage.com/aviation/mediasearch/msearch.php?search=N280NG&col=serial

https://skippyscage.com/aviation/mediasearch/msearch.php?search=N281NG&col=serial

https://skippyscage.com/aviation/mediasearch/msearch.php?search=N282NG&col=serial

As we already have "280" in service I believe the next numbers to use will be 281, 282, 283.

jonnybigwallet · 02-08-2020 10:41am

Look pretty cool. Will be nice when they come into service. BTW....Came accross an interesting bit of airborne kit called the SCHEIBER BABY SHARK which has been on testing in north Wales for the last 3 months and goes into service this weekend with the UK Coastguard. Wonder if these could be safely deployed on the P60's? It's a pilotless SAR surveillance drone helicopter and would come in dead handy for fisheries protection as well. Cool little machine and probably doesn't cost the earth.

Sgt. Bilko 09 · 20-08-2020 7:43pm

Germans have agreed to buy 45 new F/A18 Fs and EA models and also 50 new typhoons

FA is to replace the tornados
50 typhoons are to replaces the aged models of typhoons they currently have, their defence minister has suggested they are looking for buyers of there older aircraft

The aer corps have confirmed the purchase of two kitti hawk kites from dealz.

Ah the first paragraph are true. the DOF should take a look at them.

Psychlops · 20-08-2020 9:46pm

Sgt. Bilko 09 wrote: »

The DOF should take a look at them.

Why? They are old, old=expensive, Typhoon is an extremely expensive piece of kit, also before anybody has any notions, Baldonnel is not fit for use let alone they do not have the actual humans to do all this, I remember growing up looking at Air Corps Cadetships & you would see maybe 200 applicants roughly & only 2-5 would actually get in, all the infrastructure there would need to be majorly upgraded to house transport aircraft let alone Eurofighters.

Also there is not one mention of the IAC doing anything anywhere outside of Bal bar the EAS in Athlone & that is eating up the hours on the AW139 fleet I can guess.

You work from the ground up & since the ground (Bal) is not fit for purpose then you cant do much until you work on that. I would love to see where they are going to put the 2 C295's AND the CN2335's if they keep them & the PC-12 SPECTRE's.

This is not an attack on the IAC as I think they are brilliant, it is an attack on the DoD as they are feckless.

To be honest, we dont need fighter jets, outsource that to NATO like Iceland do, if the IAC wanted to make itself really a niche tool then it would be a nearly all rotary force with maybe maritime patrol also.

sparky42 · 20-08-2020 10:59pm

Sgt. Bilko 09 wrote: »

Germans have agreed to buy 45 new F/A18 Fs and EA models and also 50 new typhoons

FA is to replace the tornados
50 typhoons are to replaces the aged models of typhoons they currently have, their defence minister has suggested they are looking for buyers of there older aircraft

The aer corps have confirmed the purchase of two kitti hawk kites from dealz.

Ah the first paragraph are true. the DOF should take a look at them.

The Austrians are currently looking to offload their Tranche 1's due to costs, how in gods name do you expect the AC to make use of Tranche 1's?

Sgt. Bilko 09 · 21-08-2020 1:31am

sparky42 wrote: »

The Austrians are currently looking to offload their Tranche 1's due to costs, how in gods name do you expect the AC to make use of Tranche 1's?

I was suggesting the tornado not the Typhoon.
Typhoons are far too out of reach.

The tornados are old but can be upgraded.
It is multi-roll and the Saudis upgraded there models last year. They are a great machine.

Sgt. Bilko 09 · 21-08-2020 1:33am

Psychlops wrote: »

Why? They are old, old=expensive, Typhoon is an extremely expensive piece of kit, also before anybody has any notions, Baldonnel is not fit for use let alone they do not have the actual humans to do all this, I remember growing up looking at Air Corps Cadetships & you would see maybe 200 applicants roughly & only 2-5 would actually get in, all the infrastructure there would need to be majorly upgraded to house transport aircraft let alone Eurofighters.

Also there is not one mention of the IAC doing anything anywhere outside of Bal bar the EAS in Athlone & that is eating up the hours on the AW139 fleet I can guess.

You work from the ground up & since the ground (Bal) is not fit for purpose then you cant do much until you work on that. I would love to see where they are going to put the 2 C295's AND the CN2335's if they keep them & the PC-12 SPECTRE's.

This is not an attack on the IAC as I think they are brilliant, it is an attack on the DoD as they are feckless.

To be honest, we dont need fighter jets, outsource that to NATO like Iceland do, if the IAC wanted to make itself really a niche tool then it would be a nearly all rotary force with maybe maritime patrol also.

Yeah Iceland has Royal danish Air Force looking after it mainly, but that is down to the Faore island being so close by, they have a bi lateral agree like us and the UK at the moment.

sparky42 · 21-08-2020 1:50am

Sgt. Bilko 09 wrote: »

I was suggesting the tornado not the Typhoon.
Typhoons are far too out of reach.

The tornados are old but can be upgraded.
It is multi-roll and the Saudis upgraded there models last year. They are a great machine.

That's even more insane, the Tornado's have been used hard and are at their end of life, even if we bought every one of them for a euro a piece the AC would never be able to get their service rates up to anything. And no they aren't a "Great Machine", take out the users whose industrial base were involved in it's manufacturing, how many exports did it get?

Sgt. Bilko 09 · 21-08-2020 12:25pm

sparky42 wrote: »

That's even more insane, the Tornado's have been used hard and are at their end of life, even if we bought every one of them for a euro a piece the AC would never be able to get their service rates up to anything. And no they aren't a "Great Machine", take out the users whose industrial base were involved in it's manufacturing, how many exports did it get?

How are the tornados I am suggesting been “Used Hard” when it’s upgraded avionics version (IDS) is only in service since the mid 90s. The Luftwaffe tornados are not battle ridden models that RAF had. A little under a 1000 were built, The exportation of an aircraft does not dictate that it’s not a good aircraft. How are they not a great machine considering they are in service since the 79. Constant upgrades are available. If they weren’t great or good they would not be in service with those forces today. The only force to retire was the RAF. This also is considering it to be newer than an early F 16 and a few years older than F/A. The models I am suggesting are not the exact models from the 70s. Obviously the purchase of an upgraded(IDS) model or leased from the Germans. Similar to what the Italians did with the GR4 from the RAF.

Heraldoffreeent · 21-08-2020 1:18pm

Sgt. Bilko 09 wrote: »

How are the tornados I am suggesting been “Used Hard” when it’s upgraded avionics version (IDS) is only in service since the mid 90s. The Luftwaffe tornados are not battle ridden models that RAF had. A little under a 1000 were built, The exportation of an aircraft does not dictate that it’s not a good aircraft. How are they not a great machine considering they are in service since the 79. Constant upgrades are available. If they weren’t great or good they would not be in service with those forces today. The only force to retire was the RAF. This also is considering it to be newer than an early F 16 and a few years older than F/A. The models I am suggesting are not the exact models from the 70s. Obviously the purchase of an upgraded(IDS) model or leased from the Germans. Similar to what the Italians did with the GR4 from the RAF.

This is just crazy stuff. It's ludicrous to even suggest using an aircraft that can cost between $35,000 and $45,000 per flight hour as a solution to an air policing requirement.

Just recently updated their avionics in the mid 90's? that's a quarter of a century ago!!

The Sopwith Camel was a great plane, It was in service 100 years ago, the Tornado, just under half that time,40 years, neither are a solution we need right now.

donvito99 · 21-08-2020 1:23pm

Sgt. Bilko 09 wrote: »

How are the tornados I am suggesting been “Used Hard” when it’s upgraded avionics version (IDS) is only in service since the mid 90s. The Luftwaffe tornados are not battle ridden models that RAF had. A little under a 1000 were built, The exportation of an aircraft does not dictate that it’s not a good aircraft. How are they not a great machine considering they are in service since the 79. Constant upgrades are available. If they weren’t great or good they would not be in service with those forces today. The only force to retire was the RAF. This also is considering it to be newer than an early F 16 and a few years older than F/A. The models I am suggesting are not the exact models from the 70s. Obviously the purchase of an upgraded(IDS) model or leased from the Germans. Similar to what the Italians did with the GR4 from the RAF.

They are not great for exactly that reason. You can upgrade all you want, but that aircraft is fundamentally outdated in its design. We can distinguish it from the likes of Gripen as that is an aircraft that is still in production in the E variant. Tornado is on the way out in Italy and Germany, it would be silly to be the only operator.

sparky42 · 21-08-2020 2:18pm

Heraldoffreeent wrote: »

This is just crazy stuff. It's ludicrous to even suggest using an aircraft that can cost between $35,000 and $45,000 per flight hour as a solution to an air policing requirement.

Just recently updated their avionics in the mid 90's? that's a quarter of a century ago!!

The Sopwith Camel was a great plane, It was in service 100 years ago, the Tornado, just under half that time,40 years, neither are a solution we need right now.

Not to mention that the IDS version isn't even the ADV version so air policing isn't even it's primary role (suppose we could do like the RAF and stick a lump of concrete in it's nose instead).

But yeah the Tornado wasn't the best when it was in service, it certainly isn't 40 years later, getting them "surplus" would be a crazy use of any budget to buy Fighters.

Leonidas BL · 21-08-2020 2:18pm

The Tornado ADV(Air Defense Variant) would've been the right job, but they are all retired now.

Gripen just seems to fit the bill nicely.

sparky42 · 21-08-2020 2:31pm

Leonidas BL wrote: »

The Tornado ADV(Air Defense Variant) would've been the right job, but they are all retired now.

Gripen just seems to fit the bill nicely.

Nah they would have been brutal as well back in the day.

Larbre34 · 21-08-2020 2:38pm

The Tornado was always a dog of an aircraft, a compromise of committee and costly with it. Sounds a bit like Typhoon! The fact there are still F4s and F5s in active service tells you all you need to know about Tornado being retired.

sparky42 · 21-08-2020 2:51pm

Sgt. Bilko 09 wrote: »

How are the tornados I am suggesting been “Used Hard” when it’s upgraded avionics version (IDS) is only in service since the mid 90s. The Luftwaffe tornados are not battle ridden models that RAF had. A little under a 1000 were built, The exportation of an aircraft does not dictate that it’s not a good aircraft. How are they not a great machine considering they are in service since the 79. Constant upgrades are available. If they weren’t great or good they would not be in service with those forces today. The only force to retire was the RAF. This also is considering it to be newer than an early F 16 and a few years older than F/A. The models I am suggesting are not the exact models from the 70s. Obviously the purchase of an upgraded(IDS) model or leased from the Germans. Similar to what the Italians did with the GR4 from the RAF.

Yes, exportation does suggest how the aircraft is considered by other nations, it's telling that apart from users who were involved in the manufacturing of said aircraft it got one single export order from a nation who have a habit of buying virtually anything "shiney" no matter how it works. They've been in service since 79 because the end of the Cold War meant cut budgets, they wouldn't still be around now otherwise, they are a sunk cost for the nations that own them, for any other nation it's insane to even look at them.

The difference between the F16's and the Tornado is that the production line is still going for the 16's, the industrial supply chains even for A models are still there, they aren't for the Tornado.

roundymac · 21-08-2020 6:03pm

What have these got to do with the Cessna 172 replacement?

sparky42 · 21-08-2020 6:34pm

roundymac wrote: »

What have these got to do with the Cessna 172 replacement?

You mean the Cessna's weren't supersonic fighter bombers?

Psychlops · 21-08-2020 9:38pm

Sgt. Bilko 09 wrote: »

I was suggesting the tornado not the Typhoon.
Typhoons are far too out of reach.

The tornados are old but can be upgraded.
It is multi-roll and the Saudis upgraded there models last year. They are a great machine.

Just no, even the RAF have gotten rid of them & the Luftwaffe are following suit, the Tornado was designed much like the A10 to be down in the weeds not up intercepting.

roadmaster · 21-08-2020 9:59pm

sparky42 wrote: »

You mean the Cessna's weren't supersonic fighter bombers?

Excuse me Sparky it just depends on your version of bomber!

sparky42 · 21-08-2020 10:01pm

roadmaster wrote: »

Excuse me Sparky it just depends on your version of bomber!

Well at least you aren't trying to argue about it being supersonic...:D

Larbre34 · 08-09-2020 9:14am

A number of twitter sources in the know are showing all 3 PC-12 Spectres en route to Ireland for their delivery flight from Rocky Mountain Airport, Colorado, via a number of American continental and transatlantic stopovers.

It'll be like Christmas morning in the Don in the next few days.

jonnybigwallet · 08-09-2020 9:55am

It will indeed. They've invited me over for the party!

sparky42 · 08-09-2020 11:13am

Larbre34 wrote: »

A number of twitter sources in the know are showing all 3 PC-12 Spectres en route to Ireland for their delivery flight from Rocky Mountain Airport, Colorado, via a number of American continental and transatlantic stopovers.

It'll be like Christmas morning in the Don in the next few days.

Will the Reg no be changed at Baldonnel or what I wonder? Either way great to see.

Larbre34 · 08-09-2020 1:21pm

sparky42 wrote: »

Will the Reg no be changed at Baldonnel or what I wonder? Either way great to see.

I'd say that image pre-dates the emergency acquisition of what became 280. Unless the final decal-ing is done in Ireland etc

jonnybigwallet · 08-09-2020 2:00pm

Hope they fly all 3 in in formation over Dublin. It will be a sight to see! I remember when I was a buachaleen and Aer Lingus acquired (from memory) half a dozen Vickers Viscounts from KLM and they flew them in in formation over Dub. Twas grand!

Replacment for Cessna 172

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