Abortion Discussion, Part the Fourth

aloyisious · 17-07-2020 5:40am

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

On the excellent Irish Election Literature website I came across this:

https://irishelectionliterature.com/2018/09/06/post-referendum-report-from-the-life-institute/

A report from the Life Institute on the anti-repeal campaign.
The word "delusional" doesn't really do it justice.

Apparentlly they ran by far the better campaign
Everybody was very impressed by their speakers in the media
Everything the Yes side said in the media, posters etc. was lies
The Yes campaign could only muster a few students to knock on doors
Their slogans and posters were vibrant and engaging, the Yes ones bland and dull
The Yes side had millions of illegal foreign cash
They lost because the media, Google and Facebook all conspired against them
They had to rely on internet advertising to get their message out because of media bias (Their massive advantage in terms of numbers of posters, billboards, flyers etc. €€€ is not mentioned for some reason)
All of the stories about women harmed by the 8th were lies
The Irish people were too feeble minded to consider the arguments
Even the Church has fallen down on the job, failing to instil rightthink in the populace
But they will rise again and win the day... sometime.

Given the presence of Life-ers from known christian values families on the "protest" against the new Youth and Children Dept Minister, Rodney O'Gorman, at the Dail Kildare St gates, claiming a new cause [paedophilia] on which to rally the troops, still retaining their ability to lie and try to deceive the public while posing as varied new political groupings, it's business as usual for them. The Ad stickers on lamp-posts, poles and bus shelters from the groups like New Ireland linking the minister [and by implication the Govt] with paedophilia shows the lifers new recruiting angle. The Taoisigh is whom they are after.

Loafing Oaf · 17-07-2020 10:11am

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

They had to rely on internet advertising to get their message out because of media bias

Interesting that they appear to be portraying this 'bias' as a relatively recent thing - my memory is that Niamh Nic Mhathuna set up Youth Defence specifically because of supposed bias in coverage of the X Case. Of course this enables them to evade deeper, harder questions about the evolution of Irish people's thinking on this and related issues.

Hotblack Desiato · 17-07-2020 10:35am

Look we know newspapers and online news sites have an editorial line, that's always been the case. But they claim the broadcasters were biased against them too, even though they are strictly regulated and must enforce balance. I'm sure the BAI got loads of complaints (probably identically worded) but as far as I know didn't uphold any of them.

In my naivete I was wondering if they would take the opportunity for some introspection, but no everything is someone else's fault. It would have been honest to say that their message was too strident, turned a lot of Nos into Don't Know, turned a lot of Don't Knows into Yeses. Also worked wonders in turning Yes voters into Yes activists, and getting the Yes vote out.

At the end of the above report, it really puts the lie to the claim we often heard that the No campaign was not motivated by religious goals or values.

Loafing Oaf · 17-07-2020 12:54pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Look we know newspapers and online news sites have an editorial line, that's always been the case. But they claim the broadcasters were biased against them too, even though they are strictly regulated and must enforce balance. I'm sure the BAI got loads of complaints (probably identically worded) but as far as I know didn't uphold any of them.

In my naivete I was wondering if they would take the opportunity for some introspection, but no everything is someone else's fault. It would have been honest to say that their message was too strident, turned a lot of Nos into Don't Know, turned a lot of Don't Knows into Yeses. Also worked wonders in turning Yes voters into Yes activists, and getting the Yes vote out.

At the end it really puts the lie to the claim we often heard that the No campaign was not motivated by religious goals or values.

I think what they need to reflect on goes beyond their specific approach in the repeal referendum. They need to think about the broader historical process by which the Irish people have come to throw off the influence of the Catholic Church on other 'social issues' such as divorce and same-sex marriage over several decades, and how opposition to those developments effectively evaporated among the broader population once liberalisation had been achieved. They might also consider the situation in other western democracies, most of which have had 'liberal' abortion laws since the 1960s and 1970s, and where there is almost no public support for significant 'rollback' of those laws. Of course if they thought too long and hard about all of that they would likely just give up and go home...

Hotblack Desiato · 17-07-2020 2:41pm

Good points. But they think we're all idiots too stupid to think for ourselves and are led by the nose by the media (ignoring BAI rules, and even the Irish Times has a weekly Iona Instutute column...)

Which makes you wonder why the church had the upper hand for so long, was it because of the "obvious rightness" of their message, or maybe they were just very good at communicating it and silencing dissent

Cabaal · 18-07-2020 1:01pm

What I loved most about the repeal the 8th ref and marriage equality ref was the timing with the communiions and confirmations.

In each case a number of priests up and down the country used communion/confirmation day to tell people who wrong a yes vote was in either, in both cases people thought it was completely inappropriate for the church to use the childrens day to tell people what to do :pac:

Even my parents who are in their 70's/80's were disgusted with the priest for what he did during the confirmation mass.

It really showed just how out of touch the church is with the population.

lazygal · 19-07-2020 4:13pm

I didn't have much sympathy for parents who brought their children to mass to be indoctrinated and then complained that their children heard the Catholic position on reproductive rights.

CerebralCortex · 20-07-2020 12:14pm

Cabaal wrote: »

It really showed just how out of touch the church is with the population.

Or how protestant Irish people have become.

CerebralCortex · 20-07-2020 12:16pm

lazygal wrote: »

I didn't have much sympathy for parents who brought their children to mass to be indoctrinated and then complained that their children heard the Catholic position on reproductive rights.

Yes the have your cake and eat attitude is sickening.

Bannasidhe · 20-07-2020 1:26pm

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Or how protestant Irish people have become.

Yes, because there are apparently only those two options here in 1820.

ohnonotgmail · 20-07-2020 1:29pm

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Or how protestant Irish people have become.

up to no good as usual

Cabaal · 21-07-2020 2:58pm

lazygal wrote: »

I didn't have much sympathy for parents who brought their children to mass to be indoctrinated and then complained that their children heard the Catholic position on reproductive rights.

Neither do I,
My response is its the church's club house, they can say what they want.
If you don't like it stay home, its not stopping you believeing in a god.

lazygal · 21-07-2020 6:00pm

It was hard to stomach the complaining from parents I know. And they certainly didn't take kindly to being asked why they were having their children indoctrinated if they disagreed with the church on almost every social issue.

CerebralCortex · 22-07-2020 10:05am

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Yes, because there are apparently only those two options here in 1820.

I don't know what that means.

smacl · 22-07-2020 11:57am

CerebralCortex wrote: »

I don't know what that means.

Not everyone in this country is Catholic or Protestant as was the case a couple of centuries back. This is clearly illustrated by the fact you're posting on an atheist and agnostic forum.

CerebralCortex · 23-07-2020 8:43am

smacl wrote: »

Not everyone in this country is Catholic or Protestant as was the case a couple of centuries back. This is clearly illustrated by the fact you're posting on an atheist and agnostic forum.

I was just pointing out how the majority of people in Ireland who put down Catholic as their creed don't really take the rules of membership seriously.

Igotadose · 23-07-2020 8:44am

CerebralCortex wrote: »

I was just pointing out how the majority of people in Ireland who put down Catholic as their creed don't really take the rules of membership seriously.

You're probably in the wrong thread pointing that out. Go bother the Christianity threads.

CerebralCortex · 23-07-2020 8:48am

Igotadose wrote: »

You're probably in the wrong thread pointing that out. Go bother the Christianity threads.

I'm sorry, didn't realise I was bothering people.

Bannasidhe · 23-07-2020 9:00am

Igotadose wrote: »

You're probably in the wrong thread pointing that out. Go bother the Christianity threads.

Mod

Bit snarky. Could have been a genuine comment. Do try and be civil.

Thanking you.

Bannasidhe · 23-07-2020 9:03am

CerebralCortex wrote: »

I'm sorry, didn't realise I was bothering people.

You aren't.
You made the 'mistake' of popping into an often contentious thread and dropped a one-liner that ruffled feathers - my own included.

Perhaps a wee bit more context next time. Saves feathers and explanations later.

Hotblack Desiato · 23-07-2020 11:59am

I think it's been apparent for a very long time now that most self-declared Irish catholics (SDICs?) would be more doctrinally (if not socially) at home in the CoI.

e.g.

- use contraception
- don't believe in papal infallibility
- don't believe in the immaculate conception (if they know what it is)
- don't believe in transubstantiation (if they know what it is)

Although CoI isn't, afaik, exactly hot on sex before marriage, cohabitation or divorce - but unlike the RCC they don't think that that means the law should ban them for everyone else as well. Similarly, didn't campaign in favour of the 8th amendment in 1983, but did (rather weakly) state that they weren't in favour of its repeal either... go figure.

Given that a survey commissioned by the catholic bishops found that 10% of SDICs don't believe in god at all, and some larger percentage I can't remember aren't at all sure on the issue, it's no wonder that so many either don't know or don't care what the doctrines are of the church they claim to belong to.

smacl · 23-07-2020 12:00pm

CerebralCortex wrote: »

I was just pointing out how the majority of people in Ireland who put down Catholic as their creed don't really take the rules of membership seriously.

I wasn't aware that the question on the census asked whether they take the rules of membership seriously, merely how they self identify in terms of religion.

aloyisious · 23-07-2020 12:07pm

CerebralCortex wrote: »

I was just pointing out how the majority of people in Ireland who put down Catholic as their creed don't really take the rules of membership seriously.

Just a technicality but Protestants are catholic, just not members of the Roman Catholic version of the christian faith.

robindch · 23-07-2020 12:20pm

aloyisious wrote: »

Just a technicality but Protestants are catholic, just not members of the Roman Catholic version of the christian faith.

Doesn't the BCP require protestants to say that they're "Catholick", with a 'k'?

aloyisious · 23-07-2020 12:57pm

robindch wrote: »

Doesn't the BCP require protestants to say that they're "Catholick", with a 'k'?

You had me worried there for a bit. I thought you were placing the K at the front.

CerebralCortex · 23-07-2020 1:24pm

smacl wrote: »

I wasn't aware that the question on the census asked whether they take the rules of membership seriously, merely how they self identify in terms of religion.

Doesn't it have implications tho for policies related to the Catholic Church?

Bannasidhe · 23-07-2020 1:38pm

aloyisious wrote: »

Just a technicality but Protestants are catholic, just not members of the Roman Catholic version of the christian faith.

Ian Paisley is now spinning in his grave.
:pac:

ohnonotgmail · 23-07-2020 1:48pm

aloyisious wrote: »

Just a technicality but Protestants are catholic, just not members of the Roman Catholic version of the christian faith.

is it not more that the CoI consider themselves catholics but i dont think that automatically applies to all protestant faiths. somebody else mentioned Ian paisley and we could probably solve world energy problems by describing him as catholic.

aloyisious · 23-07-2020 2:58pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

is it not more that the CoI consider themselves catholics but i dont think that automatically applies to all protestant faiths. somebody else mentioned Ian paisley and we could probably solve world energy problems by describing him as catholic.

It's probably because people take/use the word catholic differently. AFAIK the CoE also uses the word catholic in reference to itself but in the way the word links to universal: eg as part of the christian faith, just not that held by the Roman or Orthodox sections of the faith. The Rev Ian's church could be an example of differing usage of words, that one probably being of a PROTESTANT declaration of differing opinion to other Protestant and christian churches [though not being a member of his particular church or au fait with it I'm making an assumption there].

aloyisious · 23-07-2020 3:01pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Ian Paisley is now spinning in his grave.
:pac:

Though not for turning.

ohnonotgmail · 23-07-2020 3:01pm

aloyisious wrote: »

It's probably because people take/use the word catholic differently. AFAIK the CoE also uses the word catholic in reference to itself but in the way the word links to universal: eg as part of the christian faith, just not that held by the Roman or Orthodox sections of the faith. The Rev Ian's church could be an example of differing usage of words, that one probably being of a PROTESTANT declaration of differing opinion to other Protestant and christian churches [though not being a member of his particular church or au fait with it I'm making an assumption there].

this is why the CoI consider themselves catholic

The Church of Ireland is Catholic because it is in possession of a continuous tradition of faith and practice, based on Scripture and early traditions, enshrined in the Catholic Creeds, together with the sacraments and apostolic ministry.

ohnonotgmail · 23-07-2020 3:02pm

aloyisious wrote: »

Though not for turning.

he could be spinning head over heels. bit difficult to do in a coffin mind.

aloyisious · 23-07-2020 3:20pm

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Doesn't it have implications tho for policies related to the Catholic Church?

Yes. The church has also [afaik] looked at the modern understanding [by some Christians] of the meaning of the word abortion in respect to its medical definition when it comes to terminations, and come to accept there is a difference there, as distinct from that held by persons of strong intensely-held belief within it's particular part of the Christian faith, who hold that the words abortion and termination are inextricably linked and not capable of different interpretation.

aloyisious · 23-07-2020 3:30pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

this is why the CoI consider themselves catholic

Have to say that I didn't know, until I entered my mums CoI church for her funeral service, that the CoI believed in communion similar to the RC here. First and only time there, and a revelation when I realised we humans were arguing over human interpretations of human words, so stupid, but I digress there.

Hotblack Desiato · 23-07-2020 4:54pm

aloyisious wrote: »

Just a technicality but Protestants are catholic, just not members of the Roman Catholic version of the christian faith.

Anglicans (Church of Ireland, Church of England, etc.) are - there are many other churches which we collectively call Protestant which are not.

https://www.ireland.anglican.org/our-faith/what-we-believe

We are Catholic in holding all the Christian faith in its fullness and being part of the one worldwide Church of God.

Igotadose · 08-09-2020 8:08am

Never saw this thread before. Very articulate discussion on how to prevent abortions, written by a Mormon mother of 6 children. Worth the read:

https://twitter.com/designmom/status/1040363431893725184

Bredabe · 08-09-2020 12:19pm

Igotadose wrote: »

Never saw this thread before. Very articulate discussion on how to prevent abortions, written by a Mormon mother of 6 children. Worth the read:

https://twitter.com/designmom/status/1040363431893725184

I read this when it came out first and the woman speaks a lot of sense, even if its not obvious to a lot of people at first read.
I refer all my girls to this when they are coming to the life stage when thinking about things like this, so they have a counterbalance to the iona and co.

Mark Hamill · 08-09-2020 1:50pm

Igotadose wrote: »

Never saw this thread before. Very articulate discussion on how to prevent abortions, written by a Mormon mother of 6 children. Worth the read:

https://twitter.com/designmom/status/1040363431893725184

Ehh... Are you sure it isn't satire? e.g:

Mormon Woman on Twitter wrote:

women can only get pregnant about 2 days each month

Lol what?

Mormon Woman on Twitter wrote:

men are 100% responsible for unwanted pregnancies

Her entire argument for this claim, which is what the whole twitter thread is trying to support, seems to be that 100% of all unwanted pregnancies are entirely the result of men pressuring women to have sex without condoms (or sneaking them off during sex) and then not pulling out at the end, because of the slight increase of pleasure it affords men. She also says:

Mormon Woman on Twitter wrote:

Women enjoying sex does not equal unwanted pregnancy and abortion. Men enjoying sex and having irresponsible ejaculations is what causes unwanted pregnancies and abortion.

If she didn't start with "I'm a Mormon" I would have assumed she was some kind of repressed religious nut, given the level of bonkers, gender-imbalanced views on sex she is spouting.
At first glance, it might seem like she is giving the power in sex to women (women can have all the sex they want etc.) but it is actually giving it to men, by implying that men are ones who are entirely responsible for all sex.

Mormon Woman on Twitter wrote:

If you actually care about reducing or eliminating the number of abortions in our country, simply HOLD MEN RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS.
What would that look like?
[SNIP]
Put a castration law on the books, implement the law, let the media tell the story, and in 3 months or less, tada! abortions will have virtually disappeared.

Mormon Woman on Twitter wrote:

how about this prevention idea: At the onset of puberty, all males in the U.S. could be required by law to get a vasectomy.

If this isn't satire, then she is nuts.
Condoms never fail? Women never take sexual chances?

Bredabe · 08-09-2020 4:28pm

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Ehh... Are you sure it isn't satire? e.g:

Lol what?

Her entire argument for this claim, which is what the whole twitter thread is trying to support, seems to be that 100% of all unwanted pregnancies are entirely the result of men pressuring women to have sex without condoms (or sneaking them off during sex) and then not pulling out at the end, because of the slight increase of pleasure it affords men. She also says:

If she didn't start with "I'm a Mormon" I would have assumed she was some kind of repressed religious nut, given the level of bonkers, gender-imbalanced views on sex she is spouting.
At first glance, it might seem like she is giving the power in sex to women (women can have all the sex they want etc.) but it is actually giving it to men, by implying that men are ones who are entirely responsible for all sex.

If this isn't satire, then she is nuts.
Condoms never fail? Women never take sexual chances?

I consider it to be a jaundiced view of men's sexuality from a woman's point of view.
Of course women take sexual chances, but if sperm isn't involved there is no chances in the situation. I know grown men who still say that condoms are 110% reliable even tho they know well its not true, its a line to get people into bed with them.

Mark Hamill · 10-09-2020 4:10pm

Bredabe wrote: »

I consider it to be a jaundiced view of men's sexuality from a woman's point of view.
Of course women take sexual chances, but if sperm isn't involved there is no chances in the situation. I know grown men who still say that condoms are 110% reliable even tho they know well its not true, its a line to get people into bed with them.

And if women aren't involved, then there is no chance (for the man) either, so you haven't really made the point you think you are making.

Look I don't deny that such men might exist (minority they may be), and that an extra emphasis on educating girls and women about the possibility of encountering such men is an (unfortunately necessary) requirement. I have a 3yo daughter, and when she grows older, her sex education will include how she might get pressured from boys to do things which are more unsafe for her than them.

But you can't take the one valid point that someone makes and that you agree with and jump to taking their whole spiel as true. That woman on twitter is spectacularly, even dangerously wrong on many of her points.
Going by her claim, if you are only fertile 2 days of the month then you don't need condoms the other 26 days, do you? If women actually followed that, how many unwanted pregnancies would there be? And whose fault would that be? Still men's, or that twitter idiot's fault for spreading false information?

Hotblack Desiato · 11-09-2020 3:06pm

If that was the case then Vatican roulette would work!

And tbh anyone who trumpets their conservative religious belief on Twitter is not someone I can take seriously in relation to "morals", and sexuality in particular.

growleaves · 11-09-2020 3:14pm

"catholic" is a Greek word which means "universal". AFAIK all Christian churches claim catholicity.

It doesn't necessarily mean they have a direct relation to or overlap with the (capital-C) Catholic Church.

Hotblack Desiato · 11-09-2020 5:33pm

Free Presbyterians are part of a "catholic" church - I think not!

A lot of sects have the "we're the chosen ones, all of you other so-called christians are going to burn" thing which is hardly aspiring towards universalism.

robindch · 11-09-2020 6:35pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Free Presbyterians are part of a "catholic" church - I think not!

Oddly, the First Council of Constantinople in 381 updated the Nicene Creed as declared by the First Council of Nicaea in 325 to include the following text:

Some Lad in Constantinople, 381 wrote:

Εἰς μίαν, ἁγίαν, καθολικὴν καὶ ἀποστολικὴν Ἐκκλησίαν ...

That word in bold reads 'katholikén' and means general or universal, in effect, 'open to everybody' since the prevailing religions at the time tended to be acquired by conquest in love or war.

So, if the free presbies go with the Nicene Creed, then yes, they're part of a "catholic" church for whatever that's worth.

Igotadose · 11-09-2020 7:40pm

robindch wrote: »

Oddly, the First Council of Constantinople in 381 updated the Nicene Creed as declared by the First Council of Nicaea in 325 to include the following text:That word in bold reads 'katholikén' and means general or universal, in effect, 'open to everybody' since the prevailing religions at the time tended to be acquired by conquest in love or war.

So, if the free presbies go with the Nicene Creed, then yes, they're part of a "catholic" church for whatever that's worth.

Interesting stuff, but why this thread?

aloyisious · 11-09-2020 8:20pm

Igotadose wrote: »

Interesting stuff, but why this thread?

An addendum to the abortion in N/I Debate, as one church opposing it there is of Christian belief but not Catholic, just catholic as in part of the worldwide christian world, with its adherents in situations of power in Govt there and following their christian beliefs declining to approve of legalizing abortion while still claiming to be part of the union with the U.K, which does allow for abortion in law.

Peregrinus · 14-09-2020 2:03am

The Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster does consider itself to be part of the catholic church.

It is less certain, though, that the Catholic Church is part of the catholic church.

aloyisious · 14-09-2020 7:17am

Peregrinus wrote: »

The Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster does consider itself to be part of the catholic church.

It is less certain, though, that the Catholic Church is part of the catholic church.

Yes, I won't disagree with you on that. The "the one true faith" aspect of dialogue between the religious.

Peregrinus · 14-09-2020 7:21am

aloyisious wrote: »

Yes, I won't disagree with you on that. The "the one true faith" aspect of dialogue between the religious.

When it comes to the FPCU, the word you want is not "dialogue". More "monologue", I think.

aloyisious · 14-09-2020 9:55pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

When it comes to the FPCU, the word you want is not "dialogue". More "monologue", I think.

With reduced decibel level for the past 6 years, his anniversary was last Saturday.

Abortion Discussion, Part the Fourth

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