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The glorious 12th

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    #1592
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,072 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Junkyard Tom wrote: »
    I doubt there was a single person in the RUC/UDR who was unaware of the collusion their colleagues were up to. MaryJane likes to bundle the likes of the UDR in with the regular British Army to 'dilute' the numbers involved in the mass-murder of innocent Catholics. The UDR was 'up to its knees in Fenian blood' as it were.

    One of the reasons Unionists and the British don't want a T&RC is because it would expose the depth of UDR/RUC collusion/participation in sectarian terrorism against innocent Catholics.

    Unionists fear that the idea that the security forces, particularly the locally recruited ones, were 'keeping the two sides apart' will be exposed for the utter bullshit it is.

    As I said earlier, a separate study completely.


  • Options
    #1593
    janfebmar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,424 ✭✭✭janfebmar


    Junkyard Tom wrote: »
    I doubt there was a single person in the RUC/UDR who was unaware of the collusion their colleagues were up to. MaryJane likes to bundle the likes of the UDR in with the regular British Army to 'dilute' ...

    At least unlike comrade Francie I knew it was part of the British army. No point reading the rest of your post.


    As regards a T&RC, I agree with downcow
    downcow wrote: »
    It is a ludicrous suggestion. I’ll give you a wee example. Rural community and my neighbours house was blown up in a no warning bomb that was meant to kill the family. My other neighbours drugged the guard dogs to let the ira in. These neighbours visit in each other’s houses and be just ordinary neighbours. Do you really think that the catholic neighbours are going to own up to assisting in the attempted murder of their ‘friends’ And situations like this are replicated hundreds of times across rural communities.
    It’s just not happening. It could potentially set off significant further conflict and settling of old scores that people are trying to forget about

    The pira will say they never kept any records and people who were it it often deny they were even in it, so no hope of getting any truth there.


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    #1594
    janfebmar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,424 ✭✭✭janfebmar


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    You need to come out of the fantasyland where all the above went smoothly and legally.

    I never suggested any operation over decades and involving hundreds of thousands of people always went smoothly, or that every single person acted legally. As I said already "The fact 2 troops committed a murder (and were tried and jailed for life) shows how justice did work sometimes, while hundreds of thousands of British troops did serve in N Ireland without murdering anyone. You cannot tar the hundreds of thousands because of the actions of a few."

    You lost your argument yet again Francie. ;)


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    #1595
    citytillidie
    Registered Users Posts: 22,017 ✭✭✭✭citytillidie


    I think someone has to read something other than British history books to open their eyes to what the British government and army did around the world and not just in Ireland

    ******



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    #1596
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,248 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    janfebmar wrote: »
    At least unlike comrade Francie I knew it was part of the British army. No point reading the rest of your post.


    As regards a T&RC, I agree with downcow


    The pira will say they never kept any records and people who were it it often deny they were even in it, so no hope of getting any truth there.

    There isn't a chance that Gerry Adams will tell the truth.

    He lied about his knowledge of his niece's sexual abuse, telling one story to Spotlight and another story to the courts. Given the twists and turns, he would be incapable of remembering what it truth and what is propaganda at this stage.


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    #1597
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,072 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Imreoir2 wrote: »
    Don't be silly, I think everyone is aware that the UDR was part of the British Army. The point was that it was not seen as being the same as other units due to its close likes to Unionism.

    Just for the record: The UDR was established after the disbandment of the notorious B-Specials ( Ulster Special Constabulary,) on the recommendation of the Hunt Committee. Predictably Unionists/Loyalists rioted for days after the disgracing of the B-Specials which was made up exclusively of their own.

    The UDR-recruited exclusively from northern Ireland was no better. After decades of acting in the same way as the B-Specials they too were too much of an embarrassment for the Army that contained the Paras (imagine that!)
    The UDR started with 4,000 soldiers but grew to 6,300, with half serving as part-time members. The regiment became a favoured target of the IRA, which helped to drive down Catholic numbers. Republicans killed 197 serving UDR members and 60 former members ­ a death toll that Protestants viewed as a sectarian attack on their community.

    Unionists blamed UDR wrongdoing on a few “bad apples” but that argument withered in the face of a catalogue of sectarian incidents including murder. Complete figures for criminal activity by UDR members were never disclosed but by 1991 it was admitted that 17 were convicted for murder.

    Nationalists said it was the tip of an iceberg, claiming offenders simply left the regiment before appearing in court, while collusion with loyalists accounted for an unknown number of illegal acts.

    In 1990, after large amounts of security files were passed to loyalists, John Stevens, who later headed the Metropolitan Police, launched the first of three inquiries into security force collusion with loyalists.

    As with the Stalker/Sampson inquiries investigating the RUC in the 1980s, his findings were not made public. Ten members of the UDR were charged as a result of the probe, while the regiment is believed to have come in for serious criticism in his report.

    On July 1 1991 the Queen visited Northern Ireland after a 14-year absence, and performed the ceremonial ‘presenting of colours’ to the UDR. Later that month it was confirmed the UDR was to merge with the Royal Irish Rangers, a regiment with a 300-year-old Irish connection. The head of the British army in Northern Ireland conceded the UDR had a “perception problem”, and declared the new ‘Royal Irish Regiment’ a sea-change.

    Not having learned their lesson the British established the RIR (Royal Irish Regiment) to subsume the UDR and to hide their blushes but that also failed and that regiment was deemed to be 'no longer required' in 2005.
    I think Nationalists would have seen that as a liberating bonus of the GFA, the B-Specials and UDR and the RIR was always seen as a 'separate' private entity attached more to Unionism than the British army.

    https://sluggerotoole.com/2006/05/03/details_on_that_udr_and_collusion_story/


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    #1598
    RobMc59
    Registered Users Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    citytillidie wrote: »
    I think someone has to read something other than British history books to open their eyes to what the British government and army did around the world and not just in Ireland
    As a home nation Ireland participated in the building of the British Empire,a fact which has been conveniently buried-this letter in the Irish times is probably very close to the truth.
    https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/ireland-s-role-in-british-empire-1.960949


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    #1599
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,072 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    As a home nation Ireland participated in the building of the British Empire,a fact which has been conveniently buried-this letter in the Irish times is probably very close to the truth.
    https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/ireland-s-role-in-british-empire-1.960949

    If the British embarked on overt empire building again, I have no doubt they would find some willing Irish participants again Rob. T'was always so, sadly.


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    #1600
    citytillidie
    Registered Users Posts: 22,017 ✭✭✭✭citytillidie


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    As a home nation Ireland participated in the building of the British Empire,a fact which has been conveniently buried-this letter in the Irish times is probably very close to the truth.
    https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/ireland-s-role-in-british-empire-1.960949

    Ireland under the crown of England, may have been united in name but it was takeover by the English first for that to happen.

    Also in the letter the guy references a clear photoshoped picture as fact :)

    ******



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    #1601
    Imreoir2
    Registered Users Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭Imreoir2


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    As a home nation Ireland participated in the building of the British Empire,a fact which has been conveniently buried-this letter in the Irish times is probably very close to the truth.
    https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/ireland-s-role-in-british-empire-1.960949

    Ireland, as an occupied territory of the British Empire had little choice in the matter. For the vast majority of our history the Irish people had no say in the policies adoped by the British government. Individual people were involved, often from planter families, but Ireland was never anything but an unwilling participant in Britains Empire.


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    #1602
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,072 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Imreoir2 wrote: »
    Ireland, as an occupied territory of the British Empire had little choice in the matter. For the vast majority of our history the Irish people had no say in the policies adoped by the British government. Individual people were involved, often from planter families, but Ireland was never anything but an unwilling participant in Britains Empire.

    TBH, I am not sure if Rob fully understands what plantation and subjugation actually was.


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    #1603
    janfebmar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,424 ✭✭✭janfebmar


    FrancieBrady wrote: »

    The UDR-recruited exclusively from northern Ireland was no better.

    Wrong again Francie. The UDR had people from elsewhere in it. For example, a sixties model from Susses in England called Nikki Sievwright ( new Ross) springs to mind. She went to N Ireland in the seventies and spent a few years in the UDR near the border. She passed away only recently.

    You really should try harder to get your facts right Francie, as your bigotry is built on false information, as always.


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    #1604
    RobMc59
    Registered Users Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Imreoir2 wrote: »
    Ireland, as an occupied territory of the British Empire had little choice in the matter. For the vast majority of our history the Irish people had no say in the policies adoped by the British government. Individual people were involved, often from planter families, but Ireland was never anything but an unwilling participant in Britains Empire.

    TBH, I am not sure if Rob fully understands what plantation and subjugation actually was.
    As a product of plantation I have some idea of what it is.
    I also understand you and others would like to subjugate the Ulster Scots


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    #1605
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,072 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    janfebmar wrote: »
    Wrong again Francie. The UDR had people from elsewhere in it. For example, a sixties model from Susses in England called Nikki Sievwright ( new Ross) springs to mind. She went to N Ireland in the seventies and spent a few years in the UDR near the border. She passed away only recently.

    You really should try harder to get your facts right Francie, as your bigotry is built on false information, as always.

    Was she living in northern Ireland when she joined? Because I think you will find I said:
    The UDR-recruited exclusively from northern Ireland

    But fooking well done on picking that out of my post to object to.
    No comment on the rest of their disgraceful partisan behaviour? Just typical of you janfebmar.


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    #1606
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,072 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    As a product of plantation I have some idea of what it is.
    I also understand you and others would like to subjugate the Ulster Scots

    How does someone who doesn't know that there would always have been willing recruits for Empire building among the planted class - 'understand'?

    I have no wish in the wide world to 'subjugate' anyone. But like the notion that 'plantation' and 'colonialism' were once okay, religious suprematism is an ideology of the past and has no place in a united Ireland. Therefore, since the OO is fundamentally about suprematicism and political action to ensure that supremacy it is archaic and redundant in the modern age. The fall in it's membership should tell you that moderate Unionists and decent protestants realise that.

    I think everyone but a last few stubborn belligerents recognise that.


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    #1607
    RobMc59
    Registered Users Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    RobMc59 wrote: »
    As a product of plantation I have some idea of what it is.
    I also understand you and others would like to subjugate the Ulster Scots

    How does someone who doesn't know that there would always have been willing recruits for Empire building among the planted class - 'understand'?

    I have no wish in the wide world to 'subjugate' anyone. But like the notion that 'plantation' and 'colonialism' were once okay, religious suprematism is an ideology of the past and has no place in a united Ireland. Therefore, since the OO is fundamentally about suprematicism and political action to ensure that supremacy it is archaic and redundant in the modern age. The fall in it's membership should tell you that moderate Unionists and decent protestants realise that.

    I think everyone but a last few stubborn belligerents recognise that.
    Its common knowledge that membership of religious organisations is falling.
    The dismissive,condescending tone of your posts when there is mention of Ulster Scots is shocking and your barely concealed dislike of them and the rest of Britain is actually legendary francie.:)


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    #1608
    janfebmar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,424 ✭✭✭janfebmar


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Therefore, since the OO is fundamentally about suprematicism and political action to ensure that supremacy it is archaic and redundant in the modern age.

    The OO is no more about suprematicism than elements in
    the RCC, who after generations of Ne Temere have ensured that others wish to preserve their own religion.
    They saw a process (as many there saw it) of ethnic cleansing along the border during the troubles.


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    #1609
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,072 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    Its common knowledge that membership of religious organisations is falling.
    The dismissive,condescending tone of your posts when there is mention of Ulster Scots is shocking and your barely concealed dislike of them and the rest of Britain is actually legendary francie.:)

    My only stated problem with Britain is their toxic involvement on this island. Outside of that I have the same regard for them as I have any nation on earth, German, French, US, etc etc They do some wonderful things and some things I would be critical of.

    I don't have anything per se against the Ulster Scots tradition (my maternal Grandfather was a Glaswegian) But I would be deeply suspicious of how it is being used politically (see the sudden interest in the Ulster Scots identity immediately after the signing of the GFA) by those clinging to the idea that the Irish identity and cultural somehow diminishes them or dilutes their identity and that by suppressing it or discriminating against it, enhances them. I.E. The OO (see their recent resolution resisting ANY legislation for the Irish Language)


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    #1610
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,248 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    TBH, I am not sure if Rob fully understands what plantation and subjugation actually was.


    I am not sure why you are still talking about things that happened centuries ago in trying to build a modern Northern Ireland.


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    #1611
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,248 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    My only stated problem with Britain is their toxic involvement on this island. Outside of that I have the same regard for them as I have any nation on earth, German, French, US, etc etc They do some wonderful things and some things I would be critical of.

    I don't have anything per se against the Ulster Scots tradition (my maternal Grandfather was a Glaswegian) But I would be deeply suspicious of how it is being used politically by those clinging to the idea that the Irish identity and cultural somehow diminishes them or dilutes their identity and that by suppressing it or discriminating against it, enhances them. I.E. The OO (see their recent resolution resisting ANY legislation for the Irish Language)


    If both sides embrace the idea of nation not country, there is no issue. Nation does not need territory, country does.


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    #1612
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,072 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    blanch152 wrote: »
    I am not sure why you are still talking about things that happened centuries ago in trying to build a modern Northern Ireland.

    I think it was Rob who introduced Irish involvement in Empire building blanch.


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    #1613
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,072 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    blanch152 wrote: »
    If both sides embrace the idea of nation not country, there is no issue. Nation does not need territory, country does.

    Is this not just a partitionist getting afraid of the inevitable here? The evident fear of what is coming among you is very encouraging.


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    #1614
    janfebmar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,424 ✭✭✭janfebmar


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    The evident fear of what is coming among you is very encouraging.

    ??? You expressing delight at any fear expressed by what would be the minority community I s u.I is not very helpful towards building a U.I. It's like when some Republicans expressed delight at another black prod killed during the troubles. Not helpful to anyone in the long run.


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    #1615
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,248 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Is this not just a partitionist getting afraid of the inevitable here? The evident fear of what is coming among you is very encouraging.


    I don't fear your fantasy, I fear that it traps people in old ways of thinking.

    A modern Northern Ireland is coming, with the young now identifying as Northern Irish, but not rejecting either their Irish or British heritage. The old ways of thinking, of nation being exclusive and meaning country rather than people, are the only thing preventing this.

    You fear this Francie. The panic in your posting, the almost feverish desire to keep up the partisan debate, to drag every red herring of division into discussion, to post 24/7/365 in defence of republicanism, the dismissal of other arguments through labelling of dissenters, as by naming them partitionists or unionists you can somehow diminish their arguments, it is all a clear sign of your fear.

    Is there a single Northern Irish thread on these boards where you have not been the single biggest contributor by a mile? 272 out of 1,612 on this thread 17% (downcow on 236 and then the next on 77), 315 out of 1,585 on the unification thread, nearly twice the next highest contributor, this pattern is repeated across the site. It is paranoia and fear that drive that level of contribution, in my opinion.

    The world is changing, Northern Ireland is changing, the old certainty of the demographic inevitability has been challenged by the election results. Even in the face of Brexit, the combined nationalist vote in the North dropped in the European elections as voters sought middle-ground opinion.

    If we somehow avoid a no-deal Brexit, the unification project is dead. If we do get a no-deal (not certain) and this results in severe economic hardship for everyone on this island (unlikely), there is a possibility that there will be increased short-term support, but at what price of economic hardship? No doubt you will be happy to see that economic hardship boost the prospects of a united Ireland, but republicans have always revelled in the misery of others.


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    #1616
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,072 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    janfebmar wrote: »
    ??? You expressing delight at any fear expressed by what would be the minority community I s u.I is not very helpful towards building a U.I. It's like when some Republicans expressed delight at another black prod killed during the troubles. Not helpful to anyone in the long run.

    When I say 'partitionist' I am referring to a minority community here, I think you mean. ;)

    Seeing that community that was happy to ignore the conflict and blame one side for it (they still do) silenced by a successful UI, is on my bucket list. No shame or lack of transparency on my part for that.

    By the way, my partner and children are proud Protestants. I never once rejoiced and would disown anyone who rejoiced in killing anyone just because they were a Protestant (or a Roman Catholic either).


    *Quick edit before the usual starts: I would also disown anyone who rejoices in killing, full stop.


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    #1617
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,072 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    blanch152 wrote: »

    Is there a single Northern Irish thread on these boards where you have not been the single biggest contributor by a mile? 272 out of 1,612 on this thread 17% (downcow on 236 and then the next on 77), 315 out of 1,585 on the unification thread, nearly twice the next highest contributor, this pattern is repeated across the site. It is paranoia and fear that drive that level of contribution, in my opinion.

    ...and so the inevitable begins. :D:D:D


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    #1618
    RobMc59
    Registered Users Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    blanch152 wrote: »
    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Is this not just a partitionist getting afraid of the inevitable here? The evident fear of what is coming among you is very encouraging.


    I don't fear your fantasy, I fear that it traps people in old ways of thinking.

    A modern Northern Ireland is coming, with the young now identifying as Northern Irish, but not rejecting either their Irish or British heritage. The old ways of thinking, of nation being exclusive and meaning country rather than people, are the only thing preventing this.

    You fear this Francie. The panic in your posting, the almost feverish desire to keep up the partisan debate, to drag every red herring of division into discussion, to post 24/7/365 in defence of republicanism, the dismissal of other arguments through labelling of dissenters, as by naming them partitionists or unionists you can somehow diminish their arguments, it is all a clear sign of your fear.

    Is there a single Northern Irish thread on these boards where you have not been the single biggest contributor by a mile? 272 out of 1,612 on this thread 17% (downcow on 236 and then the next on 77), 315 out of 1,585 on the unification thread, nearly twice the next highest contributor, this pattern is repeated across the site. It is paranoia and fear that drive that level of contribution, in my opinion.

    The world is changing, Northern Ireland is changing, the old certainty of the demographic inevitability has been challenged by the election results. Even in the face of Brexit, the combined nationalist vote in the North dropped in the European elections as voters sought middle-ground opinion.

    If we somehow avoid a no-deal Brexit, the unification project is dead. If we do get a no-deal (not certain) and this results in severe economic hardship for everyone on this island (unlikely), there is a possibility that there will be increased short-term support, but at what price of economic hardship? No doubt you will be happy to see that economic hardship boost the prospects of a united Ireland, but republicans have always revelled in the misery of others.
    TBF francie does make discussions more interesting and has in the past put forward some compelling stuff-of late though he has come off second best,most notably in discussions with yourself and Jan,he is also increasingly tripping himself up


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    #1619
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,072 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    TBF francie does make discussions more interesting and has in the past put forward some compelling stuff-of late though he has come off second best,most notably in discussions with yourself and Jan,he is also increasingly tripping himself up
    You have fallen for a familiar old tactic. When the evidence presented cannot be denied, make the debate about Francie. :)


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    #1620
    careless sherpa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 373 ✭✭careless sherpa


    blanch152 wrote: »
    I don't fear your fantasy, I fear that it traps people in old ways of thinking.

    A modern Northern Ireland is coming, with the young now identifying as Northern Irish, but not rejecting either their Irish or British heritage. The old ways of thinking, of nation being exclusive and meaning country rather than people, are the only thing preventing this.

    You fear this Francie. The panic in your posting, the almost feverish desire to keep up the partisan debate, to drag every red herring of division into discussion, to post 24/7/365 in defence of republicanism, the dismissal of other arguments through labelling of dissenters, as by naming them partitionists or unionists you can somehow diminish their arguments, it is all a clear sign of your fear.

    Is there a single Northern Irish thread on these boards where you have not been the single biggest contributor by a mile? 272 out of 1,612 on this thread 17% (downcow on 236 and then the next on 77), 315 out of 1,585 on the unification thread, nearly twice the next highest contributor, this pattern is repeated across the site. It is paranoia and fear that drive that level of contribution, in my opinion.

    The world is changing, Northern Ireland is changing, the old certainty of the demographic inevitability has been challenged by the election results. Even in the face of Brexit, the combined nationalist vote in the North dropped in the European elections as voters sought middle-ground opinion.

    If we somehow avoid a no-deal Brexit, the unification project is dead. If we do get a no-deal (not certain) and this results in severe economic hardship for everyone on this island (unlikely), there is a possibility that there will be increased short-term support, but at what price of economic hardship? No doubt you will be happy to see that economic hardship boost the prospects of a united Ireland, but republicans have always revelled in the misery of others.

    The modern north of Ireland is slipping further behind the 26 counties in almost every scale. A once strong economic centre has been run into the ground, division, lack of equality for marginalised groups, lack of bodily autonomy for women, living standards slipping to the worst in western Europe, an average wage of approxomately half that of the rest of the Island, assistance for the unemployed under half, the same with GDP. The north now has 10% of economic output. It is a fiasco


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    #1621
    Imreoir2
    Registered Users Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭Imreoir2


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    As a product of plantation I have some idea of what it is.
    I also understand you and others would like to subjugate the Ulster Scots

    Personally I want the people of NI to choose to join a United Ireland. In such a united country, I would expect the Ulster Scots to have euality before the law, civil and religious liberity and protections for their identity and culture.
    Perhaps you see that as subjugation, but I don't.


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