Carbon Tax

MrMusician18 · 26-09-2019 7:55pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

wait till you hear abou thow the E35 a year is totally unsustainable, its going to be the straw that breaks the camels back :rolleyes: that's nearly 10c a day right there!

An attack that will kill rural Ireland I believe.

Rural Ireland must have been killed at least 10-15 times now in the last few years at this stage.

Anyway, this is not environmentalism, it's revenue raising under faux environmentalism. There is a genuine clamour for something to be done (even an ineffectual measure such as this) so the government are not going to pass up the opportunity for a broad base tax increase while it is politically acceptable.

Geuze · 27-09-2019 1:33pm

Geuze wrote: »

The current tax is 20 euro per tonne.

The plan is to eventually increase it to 80 euro per tonne.

For information, the current 20 euro tax per tonne of carbon means carbon taxes of:

petrol = 45.87 per 1,000 L, or 4.6 cent per litre

diesel = 53.30 per 1,000 L, or 5.33 cent per litre

Orderofchaos · 05-10-2019 7:50am

Looks like it's going to be around 2c per litre. Not too bad I guess.

MrMusician18 · 05-10-2019 2:28pm

Orderofchaos wrote: »

Looks like it's going to be around 2c per litre. Not too bad I guess.

So not enough to change behaviour but enough to give a nice little bump to the exchequer.

is_that_so · 05-10-2019 2:40pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

So not enough to change behaviour but enough to give a nice little bump to the exchequer.

It goes into the general taxation pot. As the move to electric increases that sum will decline quite rapidly. Change of behaviour comes from having alternatives. Many people do not have proper options.

MrMusician18 · 05-10-2019 4:12pm

is_that_so wrote: »

It goes into the general taxation pot. As the move to electric increases that sum will decline quite rapidly. Change of behaviour comes from having alternatives. Many people do not have proper options.

So we increase taxation to encourage a switch to alternatives but the alternatives do not exist or are an inferior substitute.

In that case there will be no change in behavior but just an increase in taxation revenue. This is just an increase hiding in a green cloak because that is politically acceptable at the moment.

Orderofchaos · 06-10-2019 8:49am

MrMusician18 wrote: »

So we increase taxation to encourage a switch to alternatives but the alternatives do not exist or are an inferior substitute.

In that case there will be no change in behavior but just an increase in taxation revenue. This is just an increase hiding in a green cloak because that is politically acceptable at the moment.

An extra 2c per litre won't be pushing anyone into an EV anytime soon I think, especially people who do any distance anyway. 1 or 2 Euros a week on top of my commuting costs won't impact my choice to drive my car for another few years.

bilbot79 · 06-10-2019 9:02am

ub52 wrote: »

As we all know house prices in Dublin have risen, many have moved down the country and commute daily to Dublin where they work.
Wages are not rising, what happens when fuel is €2 a litre?
Public transport is not going to be able to bring all these people to work in Dublin, i know many people who are seriously wondering why they work at all, they are already spending a lot of time and money commuting, this carbon tax increase madness will see them quit work and go on the dole, absolutely no hyperbole in that last statement, it going to happen.

While I think this statement is a little extreme I do think there is a point there. If the government could incentivise remote working for people living outside of Dublin but employed in Dublin there could be huge advantages:

1/ Cost of commuting reduced
2/ Congestion in Dublin reduced
3/ Some money brought to local economies outside of Dublin (as people spending more time there)
4/ Less need to rent office space in Dublin for companies
5/ Huge improvements in work/life balance

beggars_bush · 08-10-2019 12:41am

bilbot79 wrote: »

While I think this statement is a little extreme I do think there is a point there. If the government could incentivise remote working for people living outside of Dublin but employed in Dublin there could be huge advantages:

1/ Cost of commuting reduced
2/ Congestion in Dublin reduced
3/ Some money brought to local economies outside of Dublin (as people spending more time there)
4/ Less need to rent office space in Dublin for companies
5/ Huge improvements in work/life balance

If all this money was invested in a proper school bus system and take all the yummy mummy buses off the roads in the morning and afternoon both in towns and countryside it would do more for our carbon footprint than anything else.
Also, think of all the hours we'd free up with people not being stuck in cars

We've the lowest rates in Europe for children going to school on buses

seamus · 08-10-2019 7:49am

bilbot79 wrote: »

While I think this statement is a little extreme I do think there is a point there. If the government could incentivise remote working for people living outside of Dublin but employed in Dublin there could be huge advantages:

1/ Cost of commuting reduced
2/ Congestion in Dublin reduced
3/ Some money brought to local economies outside of Dublin (as people spending more time there)
4/ Less need to rent office space in Dublin for companies
5/ Huge improvements in work/life balance

Doesn't even have to be a Dublin thing.

If a person can live anywhere in the country and work remotely for an employer anywhere else in the country, then employers will move out of Dublin.

Employers locate in Dublin because that's where the employees are. If this is no longer a constraint, then employers will happily move to industrial estates in the middle of nowhere with good internet pipes. Why wouldn't they? Low rent, IDA grants, etc.

The island's economic reliance on Dublin hurts Dublin just as much as the rest of the country. There's a tiny percentage of people who actually want massive upwards pressure on house prices, a choked rental market and a high cost of living. The majority just want to be able to have a home close to where they grew up and enjoy a reasonable cost of living.

If we incentivise remote working, the knock-on effects across all sorts of sectors are enormous. Rural towns will see an increase in populations, the local shop and the local pub will come back to life. Childcare becomes less of an issue for those working from home. Families have more time together, people spend less time commuting, which can only have positive benefits to communities, mental health, crime, eduction.

Environmentally, taking thousands (or hundreds of thousands) of commuters off the road will have massive benefits, not only for carbon emissions, but for the people who use their vehicle for work.

I personally believe we should be throwing money at this. Give employers a 10% rebate on employer's PRSI for every day an employee works from home. At the end an employee who works from home costs half as much as one in the office - and they will also accept lower pay because they work outside of Dublin and don't have to commute.

It's win-win for everyone.

lola85 · 08-10-2019 7:59am

Did it I read an article a few weeks back about Michael Martin saying we have to have carbon taxes in this budget?

Don’t be fooled they are all the same.

No viable choice anymore.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/extra.ie/2019/09/10/news/irish-news/micheal-martin-carbon-tax-budget/amp

“Fianna Fail leader Micheal Martin says that there needs to be a carbon tax introduced as part of Budget 2020.

His comments come as his party prepare to meet with Minister for Finance Paschal Donohoe to discuss the next budget as part of the confidence and supply agreement.”

Chips Lovell · 08-10-2019 9:52am

The gilets jaunes protests in France mean that any government is going to be wary about big bang increases in fuel taxes. We can expect incremental increases instead. It looks like they're putting their focus on the purchasing of new or import of second hand vehicles. Incentivise electric. Tax the bejaysus out of petrol/diesel cars.

Re. school buses, in rural areas yes, but in urban areas there's a massive amount of kids being driven to school who could easily walk or cycle. Choking off traffic around schools might encourage people to change their behaviour.

is_that_so · 08-10-2019 9:58am

MrMusician18 wrote: »

So we increase taxation to encourage a switch to alternatives but the alternatives do not exist or are an inferior substitute.

In that case there will be no change in behavior but just an increase in taxation revenue. This is just an increase hiding in a green cloak because that is politically acceptable at the moment.

TBH very hard to see what you stand on this as it could be just a tax rant or a rant because it's not being used properly.

Can't say the increase is burdensome. The alternatives are on the way but very slowly. It's the lack of ringfencing which is more problematic. Supposedly that will be addressed in the budget.

is_that_so · 08-10-2019 10:03am

Chips Lovell wrote: »

The gilets jaunes protests in France mean that any government is going to be wary about big bang increases in fuel taxes. We can expect incremental increases instead. It looks like they're putting their focus on the purchasing of new or import of second hand vehicles. Incentivise electric. Tax the bejaysus out of petrol/diesel cars.

Re. school buses, in rural areas yes, but in urban areas there's a massive amount of kids being driven to school who could easily walk or cycle. Choking off traffic around schools might encourage people to change their behaviour.

Heavily taxing the main means of transport is very dumb politically and looks massively discriminatory. We have a far lower threshold of tolerance when it comes to extra taxes or what we perceive as extra taxes. In due course ICE will take a bigger hit but we're still at a point where alternative options are not fully available yet, whether through price or choice.

Tazz T · 08-10-2019 10:46am

Irish Politicians answer to everything is create a new tax. Even if everyone got electric cars, recycled everything, upgraded our homes to be utterly eco-friendly, it would be a drop in the ocean compared the effect of corporations on the environment. This is where the carbon tax should be levied in its entirety. Once corporations see it's cheaper to do business environmentally, they'll change the way they operate. The tax take from this levy should go to create incentives for ordinary householders, along with a few legal changes, such as making it compulsory for every new home to have solar panels.

As someone else noted, this is a tax for the sake of raising revenue for the 'misc' budget. It will solve nothing.

Penn · 08-10-2019 12:36pm

Tazz T wrote: »

Irish Politicians answer to everything is create a new tax. Even if everyone got electric cars, recycled everything, upgraded our homes to be utterly eco-friendly, it would be a drop in the ocean compared the effect of corporations on the environment. This is where the carbon tax should be levied in its entirety. Once corporations see it's cheaper to do business environmentally, they'll change the way they operate. The tax take from this levy should go to create incentives for ordinary householders, along with a few legal changes, such as making it compulsory for every new home to have solar panels.

As someone else noted, this is a tax for the sake of raising revenue for the 'misc' budget. It will solve nothing.

Buildings account for almost a third of total global final energy use, 20% greenhouse gas emission and a third of black carbon emissions. Residential buildings make up a substantial portion of that, the biggest portion of which is for heating.

Upgrading homes to be energy efficient and using renewable energies to accomplish that would not be a drop in the ocean. The impact it would have should not be underestimated. A carbon tax on low-efficiency homes used as a basis to fund and encourage people to upgrade their homes and reduce the energy demand and emissions is incredibly important, so long as it's done right.

Not saying the commercial/industrial sector shouldn't face similar measures, just that residential homes are a large proportion of energy use in Ireland as a whole and needs to be addressed to comply with Irish and EU policy.

lleti · 08-10-2019 12:48pm

Brexit really has been a godsend for FG.

The brits making them look good even though they're not doing anything and now hiding behind not giving anything to workers claiming brexit is a risk. Piss off pricks, this is an economic expansion we need to be slashing tax.

lleti · 08-10-2019 1:30pm

6 euro per tonne increase.

The planet is saved!

drunkmonkey · 08-10-2019 1:34pm

The hiprocacy form the Government is off the charts. Carbon tax us to change our behavior but they intend spending money on airports and ports which accommodate vehicles which will pollute more than any of us would in a thousand lifetimes.
Have no doubt about it this is an extra tax with no real meaning besides revenue generation.

As for upgrading homes, it's not viable without subsidies and it's still not viable in a lot of cases with subsides as it'll never pay for the initial investment to upgrade.

BarryD2 · 08-10-2019 1:38pm

Can't quite figure why part of the carbon tax increases are being ring fenced for the ESB and Bord na Móna? In particular the ESB is a profitable body with well paid staff. As for Bord na Móna they have been stripping the country of the deep midland bogs that were considerable carbon sinks. Having decimated these, we're now to pay a penalty tax, part of which is to reward them? There's a gap in the logic somewhere!

Plumbthedepths · 08-10-2019 1:41pm

lleti wrote: »

6 euro per tonne increase.

The planet is saved!

There is an election coming, what did you expect. Save the planet or forfeit their seat. Politicians only deal with the near future.

HorrorScope · 08-10-2019 1:51pm

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

There is an election coming, what did you expect. Save the planet or forfeit their seat. Politicians only deal with the near future.

The majority don't buy this nonsense so by forcing this carbon bull**** on us, they are already digging their own grave in time for the GE. Just wait until the majority tell them exactly what they think of this climate nonsense.

endainoz · 08-10-2019 1:58pm

HorrorScope wrote: »

The majority don't buy this nonsense so by forcing this carbon bull**** on us, they are already digging their own grave in time for the GE. Just wait until the majority tell them exactly what they think of this climate nonsense.

Going by the last local elections, the majority are happy to vote for greens. They won't be let forget the silly wolf idea going into this election though. I could see a FF/Green government again. Possibly even a similar situation that we have now. No other party has enough of support to form a government, so yeah more of the same I'd say. Climate nonsense is your opinion, sadly shared by more from what I can see, if you want to continue to ignore the evidence, off with you. I doubt any actual evidence will change your mind at this point.

TheRiverman · 08-10-2019 1:59pm

I turned off Pascal after about the 50th mention of Brexit.

is_that_so · 08-10-2019 2:04pm

endainoz wrote: »

Going by the last local elections, the majority are happy to vote for greens. They won't be let forget the silly wolf idea going into this election though. I could see a FF/Green government again. Possibly even a similar situation that we have now. No other party has enough of support to form a government, so yeah more of the same I'd say. Climate nonsense is your opinion, sadly shared by more from what I can see, if you want to continue to ignore the evidence, off with you. I doubt any actual evidence will change your mind at this point.

The Greens got about 6%, not a majority by any standard. They could get up to 6 seats in the GE but not much more and their support is restricted to urban middle-class areas. Outside of the strident climate stuff they don't really offer a whole lot to voters and they are policies easily absorbed by the big two.

drunkmonkey · 08-10-2019 2:09pm

The reason the Government are saying this is partially the result of the green votes the last time is to make sure the greens don't get more votes the next time.
The Greens would do well to distance themselves from any FG/FF fund raising measures in their name.

lleti · 08-10-2019 2:12pm

I'll be voting FF for the first time anyways.

Abel Ruiz · 08-10-2019 2:16pm

lleti wrote: »

I'll be voting FF for the first time anyways.

Good one. Do you not remember their Budgets in 2010???? Two of them.
How does everyone forget the last decade?
FF and FG are both fckin cnuts.

drunkmonkey · 08-10-2019 2:18pm

lleti wrote: »

I'll be voting FF for the first time anyways.

To be honest their worse for propping up this clown show. We need a new entrant in the race. The choice for voters is terrible.

lleti · 08-10-2019 2:19pm

Abel Ruiz wrote: »

Good one. Do you not remember their Budgets in 2010???? Two of them.
How does everyone forget the last decade?
FF and FG are both fckin cnuts.

You mean in the great financial crash?

This is a great economic expansion. Even if a recession comes next year we're going to get tax increases.

Carbon Tax

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