Carbon Tax

lleti

drunkmonkey wrote: »

To be honest their worse for propping up this clown show. We need a new entrant in the race. The choice for voters is terrible.

It's them or FG so it'll be FF for me.

Tribesman West

Why not put extra tax on cheap imported plastic products from China where they are still building coal fired power plants to manufacture these oil based products.

Geuze

jim salter wrote: »

As we know, the government couldn't be arsed doing what they are paid for and tax people to the hilt instead.

Taxes are not high in Ireland.

Many earners pay zero income tax.

Chips Lovell

Mod Note

Some posts deleted. Please read the charter if you haven't done so. It should go without saying, but telling someone they are "talking out of their hole" isn't allowed here.

Thanks

MrMusician18

is_that_so wrote: »

TBH very hard to see what you stand on this as it could be just a tax rant or a rant because it's not being used properly.

Can't say the increase is burdensome. The alternatives are on the way but very slowly. It's the lack of ringfencing which is more problematic. Supposedly that will be addressed in the budget.

It's not just a tax rant, if I felt that the tax would achieve the goal of reducing emissions I'd be all for it. The evidence suggests almost the opposite however - fuel prices have increased by 35% over the past 10 years and consumption has increased, clearly carbon use is quite insensitive to price. This makes sense obviously because for most people spending money on energy is down entirely to need, waste is not desirable. If we look at cars as an example, engine size here is typically small and efficient, in contrast to the USA where performance trumps economy.

So the tax rise is small so won't achieve it's goal. Next year when we are looking at it's impact we will see how ineffectual it was. Pointless sacrifices rile the public and having to keep going back to the well saying "this will fix it, this will fix it" will do more to get people offside.

Private transport is a relatively small contributor to emissions anyway. The real challenge is cleaning up the grid, and decarbonising agriculture. This measure is greenwashing a broad base stealth tax.

is_that_so

Geuze wrote: »

Taxes are not high in Ireland.

Many earners pay zero income tax.

Well 30% according to this.
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/more-than-1-million-workers-will-not-pay-income-tax-this-year-1.3544848

MrMusician18

endainoz wrote: »

Going by the last local elections, the majority are happy to vote for greens. They won't be let forget the silly wolf idea going into this election though. I could see a FF/Green government again. Possibly even a similar situation that we have now. No other party has enough of support to form a government, so yeah more of the same I'd say. Climate nonsense is your opinion, sadly shared by more from what I can see, if you want to continue to ignore the evidence, off with you. I doubt any actual evidence will change your mind at this point.

The green wave was a myth peddled by RTE/IT. The green got 6% picking up the bottom council seats in upper middle class urban areas. A general election will be much more challenging for them as the constituencies are far more economically diverse, and are mostly 4 seaters.

A good day will see them get 3/4 Dail seats.

quokula

Idbatterim wrote: »

wait till you hear abou thow the E35 a year is totally unsustainable, its going to be the straw that breaks the camels back :rolleyes: that's nearly 10c a day right there!

This is why the government can't win. They'd be utterly crucified if they set them much higher, but small increments won't make much difference.

It's the same everywhere - France was practically brought to its knees by protests over their carbon tax.

We're kind of screwed, action on climate change needs genuine short term pain in order to halt long term catastrophe, and democratic systems just can't deal with that.

lola85

lleti wrote: »

It's them or FG so it'll be FF for me.

Are you aware FF pushed for carbon taxes?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thejournal.ie/budget-2020-discussions-carbon-tax-4802720-Sep2019/%3famp=1

“Micheál Martin says there would 'need to be' a carbon tax in Budget 2020”

Podge_irl

Tazz T wrote: »

Irish Politicians answer to everything is create a new tax. Even if everyone got electric cars, recycled everything, upgraded our homes to be utterly eco-friendly, it would be a drop in the ocean compared the effect of corporations on the environment. This is where the carbon tax should be levied in its entirety. Once corporations see it's cheaper to do business environmentally, they'll change the way they operate. The tax take from this levy should go to create incentives for ordinary householders, along with a few legal changes, such as making it compulsory for every new home to have solar panels.

As someone else noted, this is a tax for the sake of raising revenue for the 'misc' budget. It will solve nothing.

Taxing "corporations" is just going to have the exact same impact as they will pass the price increases on. Corporations do not pollute in isolation, they do it to provide for consumers.

The tax should be ringfenced for "green" measures though, I agree.

Infini

I think myself this carbon tax is a joke the money never goes towards what's intended it always ends up paying off some scheme or another. Not only that but if they intend on getting people to buy into this they need to be providing alternatives, its like those Extinction Muppet protestors, they want the wrong thing's and are just doing no favours for themselves or their cause, if they want to win people over they need to provide viable alternatives like upgrading and providing reliable public transport and pushing ideas that work.

lleti

lola85 wrote: »

Are you aware FF pushed for carbon taxes?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thejournal.ie/budget-2020-discussions-carbon-tax-4802720-Sep2019/%3famp=1

“Micheál Martin says there would 'need to be' a carbon tax in Budget 2020”

Yep. I'm also aware FF would give tax cuts the people deserve.

And they'd also spend on good capital projects. The roads are down to FF. What have FG done? They can't even build a hospital within a billion of the budget.

drunkmonkey

2 billion. There's more to come with the hospital built on an underground carpark full of lithium. Designed by the Joker himself.

lola85

lleti wrote: »

Yep. I'm also aware FF would give tax cuts the people deserve.

And they'd also spend on good capital projects. The roads are down to FF. What have FG done? They can't even build a hospital within a billion of the budget.

I’m no fan of FG believe me.

So FF built roads?

Of course property tax, household charge, water charges, austerity, 200 billion debt is all forgotten because they built a few roads funded by the EU?

But FF have overspent in the past on the Luas, the port tunnel, roads, wasted 150 million on the Mater hospital which they earmarked as the children’s hospital.

Oh and also sold off all the countries social housing to buy votes.

Also bought public sector votes each budget to unsustainable levels.

Oh and the USC.


They are both as bad as each other.

Abel Ruiz

lleti wrote: »

You mean in the great financial crash?

This is a great economic expansion. Even if a recession comes next year we're going to get tax increases.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PCwQrX4MiiY

This is rte's Free Fall. Have a watch when you have some time, very enjoyable.
"We're not ****ing nationalising Anglo"...
Their decisions tied the banks and the state at the hip.....

FF were asleep at the wheel, at the turn of the century and early 00s. It was definitely their fault that ireland had such a hard downturn compared to other nations.
And then, they made a complete mess of things from 2008 until they imploded.
Many FF politicians just retired and walked with huge pensions even though they made so many mistakes.
No shame whatsoever.

Never forget what they did. Never

Sierra Oscar

Chips Lovell wrote: »

The gilets jaunes protests in France mean that any government is going to be wary about big bang increases in fuel taxes. We can expect incremental increases instead. It looks like they're putting their focus on the purchasing of new or import of second hand vehicles. Incentivise electric. Tax the bejaysus out of petrol/diesel cars.

The Government is definitely going to do the increases incrementally, but 2030 isn't exactly all that far off all the same. The Government is effectively going to double the price of a liter of petrol / diesel in the next decade. Taking into account inflation and the rising cost of oil in general, people could be looking at paying a fiver per liter by the end of the decade. It won't go down well. Imagine paying well over a couple of hundred quid to fill up your car. I can remember what I was paying for petrol in 2009. 2030 ain't far off folks!

drunkmonkey

Fuel prices should be pressurized downwards over the next 10yrs. There's no pressure to drastically reduce prices yet as electric and hydrogen are such a tiny threat to the industry.
Don't think you'll have to worry about it costing €200 to fill the tank in our lifetime.

Chips Lovell

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

The Government is definitely going to do the increases incrementally, but 2030 isn't exactly all that far off all the same. The Government is effectively going to double the price of a liter of petrol / diesel in the next decade. Taking into account inflation and the rising cost of oil in general, people could be looking at paying a fiver per liter by the end of the decade. It won't go down well. Imagine paying well over a couple of hundred quid to fill up your car. I can remember what I was paying for petrol in 2009. 2030 ain't far off folks!

I don't know, it's eleven years away, which is a pretty conservative time period for the transition. How many people are still going to be driving the same car in 2030? I think the message is fairly clear, that you need to transition to an EV the next time you change your car or face mounting fuel and tax bills.

lleti

Chips Lovell wrote: »

I don't know, it's eleven years away, which is a pretty conservative time period for the transition. How many people are still going to be driving the same car in 2030? I think the message is fairly clear, that you need to transition to an EV the next time you change your car or face mounting fuel and tax bills.

Still makes more sense for people to pay extra in fuel than all the upfront cost of an EV.

How much does it take to install EV in your home? Where are they installed in housing estates where only one car can go in the driveway?

Chips Lovell

lleti wrote: »

Still makes more sense for people to pay extra in fuel than all the upfront cost of an EV.

I mean that when it's time to change your car, it's going to be increasingly more economical to opt for an EV

lleti wrote: »

How much does it take to install EV in your home? Where are they installed in housing estates where only one car can go in the driveway?

About €400 AFAIK.

drunkmonkey

Chips Lovell wrote: »

I don't know, it's eleven years away, which is a pretty conservative time period for the transition. How many people are still going to be driving the same car in 2030? I think the message is fairly clear, that you need to transition to an EV the next time you change your car or face mounting fuel and tax bills.

I think a lot of people are reading what's happening wrong. iCE cars are getting cleaner to the point where on a daily basis there is little to no difference between a new BMW diesel and a Tesla pollution wise. The conversation will move to cradle to the grave energy cost and that's where ICE may lead the way as a lot more of an ice car is recyclable, they still don't know what can be done with all these giant depleted lithium batteries yet as the technology to recycle them hasn't been invented.
EV's have a long struggle ahead on a lot of fronts. New diesels bought now will be mainly exempt from the nox tax, a 520d touring attracts a nox tax of €5. I think that says it all.

Sierra Oscar

Chips Lovell wrote: »

I don't know, it's eleven years away, which is a pretty conservative time period for the transition. How many people are still going to be driving the same car in 2030? I think the message is fairly clear, that you need to transition to an EV the next time you change your car or face mounting fuel and tax bills.

I'm looking after a project to try and bring electric charging to an apartment block with communal parking. I've effectively been told it's unviable to progress the project for three years or so. It's not as if everyone can transition to an EV this instant.

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Fuel prices should be pressurized downwards over the next 10yrs. There's no pressure to drastically reduce prices yet as electric and hydrogen are such a tiny threat to the industry.
Don't think you'll have to worry about it costing €200 to fill the tank in our lifetime.

I doubt field prices will fall at all. Global industry growth will only accelerate over the next decade putting pressure on what is a finite resource. Sure, renewable energy use is going to grow hugely. I still don't think it will grow enough to cover our entire global energy use in a decade.

The Government have also essentially given industry an exemption to the carbon tax in the budget by giving them a rebate through the Diesel Rebate Scheme. That says it all really. EV might be an option for some personal car users, but it really isn't viable whatsoever for industry. I don't think we will see widespread EV trucks this decade. There's a reason the Government has given industry a rebate and as global growth grows so will the number of trucks chugging away on diesel.

Chips Lovell

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

I'm looking after a project to try and bring electric charging to an apartment block with communal parking. I've effectively been told it's unviable to progress the project for three years or so. It's not as if everyone can transition to an EV this instant.

I never said everyone, and I never said this instant though. What I mean is that over that 11 year time period, it's going to become increasingly more economical and practical.

drunkmonkey

Chips Lovell wrote: »

I never said everyone, and I never said this instant though. What I mean is that over that 11 year time period, it's going to become increasingly more economical and practical.

It's going to become less economical, paying for charging will be in everywhere. Grants will be done away with it. Pascal has flagged BIK for EV's after 2022 budget.
Unless there's a major break through in battery technology an EV might not be the car of the future in 11yrs. Germany is pumping loads of money into Hydrogen powered cars with plenty of fuel stations to come online over the next few years.
EV's may make up a tiny bit of the future but they won't dominate.

Chips Lovell

Sure hydrogen may also start to figure, but whatever happens, it seems certain that using petrol or diesel will increasingly be disincentivised.

Re charging (or hydrogen for that matter) It doesn't need to be free, just cheaper than petrol/diesel.

drunkmonkey

Why will Europe disentifice petrol/diesel once the air pollution argument is removed. EV's don't pollute city's and either do new diesels.
Diesels have a longer shelf life and probably everything taken into account are less harmful to the environment than an EV.

Chips Lovell

I'm unaware of any zero-emissions diesels.

Anyway, let's agree to disagree. I reckon this is the way public policy is moving. You reckon it isn't going in that direction. We'll know for sure in ten years.

lleti

I can see there being a big shock for people when they go to sell their EV car. It's grand when it's a couple years old I'm sure but take a look at cars 6/7 years old.

This 6 year old leaf has only 25k miles done and is being advertised for €10,250.

How much did a new leaf cost in 2013? What, 30k at least? So 20k loss and only 25k miles done.

Dytalus

lleti wrote: »

I can see there being a big shock for people when they go to sell their EV car. It's grand when it's a couple years old I'm sure but take a look at cars 6/7 years old.

This 6 year old leaf has only 25k miles done and is being advertised for €10,250.

How much did a new leaf cost in 2013? What, 30k at least? So 20k loss and only 25k miles done.

This is always gonna be the case with new "products" as they enter the market. They start expensive and start to get cheaper as more people buy them, as they become easier to get, and the methods of building them get cheaper/more efficient.

My uncle bought a flat widescreen TV, non-HD, for almost 10,000 euro back in the early-mid 2000's. It didn't take long for HD to come into the market and obliterate the selling cost of that same TV. You get a full-HD tv of the same size for less than a tenth of that cost now.

EVs are going to go through the same thing as time goes by. Which obviously sucks for early adopters but...well that's what tends to happen with these things.

lleti

Dytalus wrote: »

This is always gonna be the case with new "products" as they enter the market. They start expensive and start to get cheaper as more people buy them, as they become easier to get, and the methods of building them get cheaper/more efficient.

My uncle bought a flat widescreen TV, non-HD, for almost 10,000 euro back in the early-mid 2000's. It didn't take long for HD to come into the market and obliterate the selling cost of that same TV. You get a full-HD tv of the same size for less than a tenth of that cost now.

EVs are going to go through the same thing as time goes by. Which obviously sucks for early adopters but...well that's what tends to happen with these things.

There's the problem of the grants included in this though. 5k grant which if they become common will go.