Carbon Tax

Orderofchaos

How much do you think the new carbon taxes will add to 1 liter of diesel/petrol and kerosene/heating oil?

jim salter

Whatever it will be, it will be too much as it is a scam. Nothing more than a money grab by the incompetent government. If there was a true appetite to address Ireland carbon emissions (which is less than 1/10 of 1% of the world's emissions) the government would be giving many more incentives rather than blanket taxing.

As we know, the government couldn't be arsed doing what they are paid for and tax people to the hilt instead.

Geuze

Orderofchaos wrote: »

How much do you think the new carbon taxes will add to 1 liter of diesel/petrol and kerosene/heating oil?

The carbon tax already exists, since 2010

https://revenue.ie/en/companies-and-charities/excise-and-licences/mineral-oil-tax/carbon-tax/index.aspx

Geuze

Orderofchaos wrote: »

How much do you think the new carbon taxes will add to 1 liter of diesel/petrol and kerosene/heating oil?

Rates are here:

https://revenue.ie/en/companies-and-charities/excise-and-licences/excise-duty-rates/mineral-oil-tax.aspx

The existing carbon tax is set at 20 euro per tonne of carbon.

So it's 4.587 cent per litre of petrol.

Geuze

jim salter wrote: »

As we know, the government couldn't be arsed doing what they are paid for and tax people to the hilt instead.

Off-topic, but please note that overall taxes are not high in Ireland.

Geuze

jim salter wrote: »

Whatever it will be, it will be too much as it is a scam. Nothing more than a money grab by the incompetent government. If there was a true appetite to address Ireland carbon emissions (which is less than 1/10 of 1% of the world's emissions) the government would be giving many more incentives rather than blanket taxing.

Please note that taxes are incentives.

London congestion charge = incentive to not drive

Plastic bag tax = incentive to change behaviour

Carbon tax = incentive to change behaviour

Income tax = incentive to not work.


Note that most taxes alter incentives.

blanch152

Orderofchaos wrote: »

How much do you think the new carbon taxes will add to 1 liter of diesel/petrol and kerosene/heating oil?

Carbon taxes should be increased dramatically. Ordinary people are not grasping the real dangers of climate change.

lola85

blanch152 wrote: »

Carbon taxes should be increased dramatically. Ordinary people are not grasping the real dangers of climate change.

Nonsense.

There was a professor on the Pat Kenny saying all this technology is already coming and by 2050 will be fully up and running as is a natural progression.

The panic now and rush to tax people is just that, panic.

Things change so quickly and the world is going green without the need to rush.

Geuze

I say double, triple the carbon tax, but at the same time increase the SRCOP.

Don't tax working so much.

Instead tax the burning of fossil fuels.

Dytalus

blanch152 wrote: »

Carbon taxes should be increased dramatically. Ordinary people are not grasping the real dangers of climate change.

In theory, I'm for this. We need to push people away from the combustion engine as part of battling climate change (and no, before the inevitable counter argument crops up, I'm not saying that's enough or that it's the average joe's fault. I'm saying it, alongside clean energy and managing the major industries responsible, are all necessary), but Ireland hasn't done a wonderful job of making it feasible to transition away from ICE cars - which is where John and Jane Doe are going to notice the tax hitting them most likely.

Thankfully charges for charging points are coming in, which will hopefully be used to expand the network - making hybrid and electric vehicles more usable. Our capital is very car-centric and that needs to change. My housemate cannot get to work on time by any method except a car, cannot move closer because of rent costs, and cannot afford the buy an electric or hybrid car. A straight carbon tax is only going to make his cost of living more expensive, and he cannot (currently, rent prices may drop or he may get a better paying job in the future) shift away from his current car-based commute as much as he wants a hybrid. I'd wager he's not alone in being stuck in that situation.

I'm all for a carbon tax, it's a useful tool to raise money to combat climate change (use it to expand the charging point network, or shift to clean energy) and incentivise people to shift to less climate damaging habits. But we need to make those alternative habits easy and feasible to change to, otherwise it's just going to piss people off. I'll admit, I'm not quite sure how to go about doing that. Electric cars are getting cheaper all the time, but are still expensive (as cars are in general) and I don't tend to see a lot on the second hand market, and there's only so much in grants that can be provided. Our public transport infrastructure is...fine, but not particularly remarkable (not helped by the low residential/high job density of Dublin) and can't accommodate workers outside of the usual M-F, 9-5 working hours very well. I travel almost exclusively by public transport (I cannot drive and do not own a car), and have done so for the last decade, so I'm pretty familiar with where the gaps in timetables and routes are.

So...yeah. After that long-winded spiel I guess my point is a carbon tax is needed to push people away from the habits we need to discourage, but a tax alone is not enough. Changing a habit is a hurdle, and for some people that hurdle is too difficult to surmount without help. Use the tax to increase grants on HEV and EVs, or expand the transport network of buses/trams (timetable and routes) to commuter towns (ideally so that you don't pretty much have to go into the city centre and back out again to get anywhere in the greater Dublin area).

James Brown

Depends on what alternatives are available. If you have to drive for example, it's just another level of taxation. Maybe spend the money on subsidies for solar power, public transport or electric vehicles?

Dytalus

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Depends on what alternatives are available. If you have to drive for example, it's just another level of taxation. Maybe spend the money on subsidies for solar power, public transport or electric vehicles?

That's what I think needs to happen. Now it'd be hard to specifically point it that way, because I'd imagine it'd be treated like other taxes and just go into a big pool of money. But there is a term (I cannot for the life of me remember it) wherein money raised through a carbon tax is given almost directly back to people in a manner that further assists in moving away from carbon heavy attitudes, and also reduces the potential for carbon taxes to be regressive in nature.

Subsidies for electric vehicles, allowing households easier (cheaper) access to green energy sources, improving energy efficiency of housing through grants, etc... are all ways a carbon tax can be fed directly back into people to counter the impact it would have on disposable income.

Orderofchaos

Geuze wrote: »

The carbon tax already exists, since 2010

https://revenue.ie/en/companies-and-charities/excise-and-licences/mineral-oil-tax/carbon-tax/index.aspx

I'm aware that a carbon tax already exists, thanks.
How much extra will be added to the existing tax?
Another 5c, 10c, 15c????
I drive a 10 year old car, it has already been manufactured so this "carbon cost" is already spent, I should be rewarded for driving it for another 10 not punished and pushed into buying a new car. Surely the carbon footprint for the manufacturing process is huge.

drunkmonkey

There were some figures on the front of one of the papers this morning. Tank of car fuel up by €1, bag of coal up 70cent. Home hearting oil probably cost €70 more per year.
I only glanced at it, didn't bother buying it, didn't want to upset Gretta by helping burn the house down.

Atlantic Dawn

Getting people convinced that spending €80k retrofitting their homes with green technology is another beauty, they will be dead decades before a saving of €1 will be made if they just stayed with their current setup.

drunkmonkey

Just look what's happening in the UK Barclays have put £38 million aside for claims, even after 20yrs and selling excess electricity back to the grid you'd still not have saved any money.
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/09/09/bbc-solar-panels-thousands-of-customers-complain/

BaronVon

I'm all in favour of a carbon tax, once I'm provided with a realistic alternative. Renewable and battery technology, as well as the electrical network and power generation, are not up to a huge transfer over to electric vehicles by the general public. Plus, most of our current electricity generation is by fossil fuels, so we'd only be displacing the problem.

If they are going to bring in a meaningful carbon tax, one that will actually change behaviour, we need to start building nuclear power plants for it to be in any way remotely achievable.

drunkmonkey

It's not our behavior that needs to change first though, taxing us has little benefit. Did you see Pascal's satement on what he was going to do with the money, spend it on chastisting us or invest it in kinda funds that are good for families, complete bull****, wft is a kind of fund. What ROI is he expecting to make on these funds. These carbon taxes will not save the planet. Pascal has proved he can't invest, he should have sold our stake in AIB and BOI last year while the going is good, now he's left us the taxpayer holding the bag with another few billion hit, and he wants to take my money to invest in kind of funds. The contempt for the tax payer is off the scale.
Tax the cruise ships entering our water, tax the airlines, even our trains are meant to terrible polluters.
https://www.ft.com/content/8bceef94-86cd-11e9-a028-86cea8523dc2

Geuze

Orderofchaos wrote: »

I'm aware that a carbon tax already exists, thanks.
How much extra will be added to the existing tax?
Another 5c, 10c, 15c????

The current tax is 20 euro per tonne.

The plan is to eventually increase it to 80 euro per tonne.

This year, the talk is of 10 euro increase to 30 euro per tonne.

FF have mentioned 5 or 6 euro extra.

ednwireland

i'll say it again why is irish rail buying hybrid trains electrify the lines and buy electric trains - its not like its new technology.

can we dump even a proportion of what is spent on roads into public transport make it useable and affordale, a bus from donegal town to sligo is 18 euro return not goingto spend that in diesel

the first train into sligo from dublin doesnt arrive until 10:15 am so people dont use itto commute, no commuter services either.

outside dublin public transport is beyond pathetic

drunkmonkey

With crude up close to 10% today they Government take via taxiation is already going up. In the current climate I think it would be a very foolish government to gouge even more.

Geuze

drunkmonkey wrote: »

With crude up close to 10% today they Government take via taxiation is already going up. In the current climate I think it would be a very foolish government to gouge even more.

Fuel excise is fixed in cents per litre.

You may be referring to VAT?

j8wk2feszrnpao

"Carbon taxes should be increased dramatically. Ordinary people are not grasping the real dangers of climate change."

A dramatic increase in carbon taxes, is a dramatic increase in the price of all goods consumed. The cost will be passed onto the ordinary people.

drunkmonkey

munstermagic11 wrote: »

"Carbon taxes should be increased dramatically. Ordinary people are not grasping the real dangers of climate change."

If you think carbon tax is anything but a tax raising exercise and another way to remove pleasures, freedoms and rights from us somebody has sold you a pup.

Remember this tax according to our finance minister is possibly going to be used in a kinda funds. If you think that's the best use of extra hardship on citizens and to save the planet keep cheering for more carbon tax.

I'm disgusted at the lanuguage he used when explaining where the money is going, it's as if he was taking to dumb citizens who take his words as knowledgeable and have no idea what a fund actually is but it sounds like a good idea to the uneducated on such matters.

If you told me the money was going into high speed electric trains, supporting local businesses to produce locally, bigger grants to support the uptake of alternative transport well then I might buy into it, but Pascal and his kinda funds can buzz off and get out of my pocket.

Chips Lovell

Mod Note

No memes please. Serious posts only. Thanks

James Brown

I see Varadkar says every penny will go on climate initiatives. Hopefully that's not code for 'miscellaneous'.

Fan of Netflix

Matt Barrett wrote: »

I see Varadkar says every penny will go on climate initiatives. Hopefully that's not code for 'miscellaneous'.

We heard the same about the gambling tax was going to be used to help underfunded gambling addiction services. They didn't get that money.

The sugar tax was meant to help fight the obesity crisis. Didn't happen. So it's lies and BS once again, this is just a money grab by the state. Anyone thinking this will help the environment is naive at best.

theguzman

Carbon taxes and the Climate Change hysteria have been entirely hijacked by left-wing socialists to further their own tax and spend agenda. If we were serious to lower our Co2 emissions we should be lowering the price of electricity by at least half. Because of EU competition law the ESB a natural monopoly was opened up to artificial competition and as a direct result electricity prices have skyrocketed. Cut the price of power and install more renewables, let us move away from Piped Gas, Kerosene for home heating to electric heating, if power was cheap then storage heaters and HVAC systems would make sense. It would also cut out the huge oil delivery chain.

Carbon taxes is a ploy to extract money from the people and use it to further some other raving agenda of the bloated public and civil sector.

ub52

munstermagic11 wrote: »

"Carbon taxes should be increased dramatically. Ordinary people are not grasping the real dangers of climate change."

A dramatic increase in carbon taxes, is a dramatic increase in the price of all goods consumed. The cost will be passed onto the ordinary people.

As we all know house prices in Dublin have risen, many have moved down the country and commute daily to Dublin where they work.
Wages are not rising, what happens when fuel is €2 a litre?
Public transport is not going to be able to bring all these people to work in Dublin, i know many people who are seriously wondering why they work at all, they are already spending a lot of time and money commuting, this carbon tax increase madness will see them quit work and go on the dole, absolutely no hyperbole in that last statement, it going to happen.

MrMusician18

Geuze wrote: »

The current tax is 20 euro per tonne.

The plan is to eventually increase it to 80 euro per tonne.

This year, the talk is of 10 euro increase to 30 euro per tonne.

FF have mentioned 5 or 6 euro extra.

So in effect an increase of 2.5c/l on diesel.
So if you drive the average 20k km per year at average miles to the gallon you'll see an annual increase of €35/year. And that's why I think carbon taxes are useless.

They are nowhere near punitive enough to actually deliver change. The price of fuel has risen from below €1/l during the great recession to €1.35/l today and emissions have increased.

The real problem is that the economy depends on relatively inexpensive energy to function and only carbon based fuels can do that at the moment. The level that carbon taxes would been to be too actually change behavior would need to be 10 times that proposed.

It's greenwashing.

Idbatterim

So in effect an increase of 2.5c/l on diesel.
So if you drive the average 20k km per year at average miles to the gallon you'll see an annual increase of €35/year. And that's why I think carbon taxes are useless.

wait till you hear abou thow the E35 a year is totally unsustainable, its going to be the straw that breaks the camels back :rolleyes: that's nearly 10c a day right there!

MrMusician18

Idbatterim wrote: »

wait till you hear abou thow the E35 a year is totally unsustainable, its going to be the straw that breaks the camels back :rolleyes: that's nearly 10c a day right there!

An attack that will kill rural Ireland I believe.

Rural Ireland must have been killed at least 10-15 times now in the last few years at this stage.

Anyway, this is not environmentalism, it's revenue raising under faux environmentalism. There is a genuine clamour for something to be done (even an ineffectual measure such as this) so the government are not going to pass up the opportunity for a broad base tax increase while it is politically acceptable.

Geuze

Geuze wrote: »

The current tax is 20 euro per tonne.

The plan is to eventually increase it to 80 euro per tonne.

For information, the current 20 euro tax per tonne of carbon means carbon taxes of:

petrol = 45.87 per 1,000 L, or 4.6 cent per litre

diesel = 53.30 per 1,000 L, or 5.33 cent per litre

Orderofchaos

Looks like it's going to be around 2c per litre. Not too bad I guess.

MrMusician18

Orderofchaos wrote: »

Looks like it's going to be around 2c per litre. Not too bad I guess.

So not enough to change behaviour but enough to give a nice little bump to the exchequer.

is_that_so

MrMusician18 wrote: »

So not enough to change behaviour but enough to give a nice little bump to the exchequer.

It goes into the general taxation pot. As the move to electric increases that sum will decline quite rapidly. Change of behaviour comes from having alternatives. Many people do not have proper options.

MrMusician18

is_that_so wrote: »

It goes into the general taxation pot. As the move to electric increases that sum will decline quite rapidly. Change of behaviour comes from having alternatives. Many people do not have proper options.

So we increase taxation to encourage a switch to alternatives but the alternatives do not exist or are an inferior substitute.

In that case there will be no change in behavior but just an increase in taxation revenue. This is just an increase hiding in a green cloak because that is politically acceptable at the moment.

Orderofchaos

MrMusician18 wrote: »

So we increase taxation to encourage a switch to alternatives but the alternatives do not exist or are an inferior substitute.

In that case there will be no change in behavior but just an increase in taxation revenue. This is just an increase hiding in a green cloak because that is politically acceptable at the moment.

An extra 2c per litre won't be pushing anyone into an EV anytime soon I think, especially people who do any distance anyway. 1 or 2 Euros a week on top of my commuting costs won't impact my choice to drive my car for another few years.

bilbot79

ub52 wrote: »

As we all know house prices in Dublin have risen, many have moved down the country and commute daily to Dublin where they work.
Wages are not rising, what happens when fuel is €2 a litre?
Public transport is not going to be able to bring all these people to work in Dublin, i know many people who are seriously wondering why they work at all, they are already spending a lot of time and money commuting, this carbon tax increase madness will see them quit work and go on the dole, absolutely no hyperbole in that last statement, it going to happen.

While I think this statement is a little extreme I do think there is a point there. If the government could incentivise remote working for people living outside of Dublin but employed in Dublin there could be huge advantages:

1/ Cost of commuting reduced
2/ Congestion in Dublin reduced
3/ Some money brought to local economies outside of Dublin (as people spending more time there)
4/ Less need to rent office space in Dublin for companies
5/ Huge improvements in work/life balance

beggars_bush

bilbot79 wrote: »

While I think this statement is a little extreme I do think there is a point there. If the government could incentivise remote working for people living outside of Dublin but employed in Dublin there could be huge advantages:

1/ Cost of commuting reduced
2/ Congestion in Dublin reduced
3/ Some money brought to local economies outside of Dublin (as people spending more time there)
4/ Less need to rent office space in Dublin for companies
5/ Huge improvements in work/life balance

If all this money was invested in a proper school bus system and take all the yummy mummy buses off the roads in the morning and afternoon both in towns and countryside it would do more for our carbon footprint than anything else.
Also, think of all the hours we'd free up with people not being stuck in cars

We've the lowest rates in Europe for children going to school on buses

seamus

bilbot79 wrote: »

While I think this statement is a little extreme I do think there is a point there. If the government could incentivise remote working for people living outside of Dublin but employed in Dublin there could be huge advantages:

1/ Cost of commuting reduced
2/ Congestion in Dublin reduced
3/ Some money brought to local economies outside of Dublin (as people spending more time there)
4/ Less need to rent office space in Dublin for companies
5/ Huge improvements in work/life balance

Doesn't even have to be a Dublin thing.

If a person can live anywhere in the country and work remotely for an employer anywhere else in the country, then employers will move out of Dublin.

Employers locate in Dublin because that's where the employees are. If this is no longer a constraint, then employers will happily move to industrial estates in the middle of nowhere with good internet pipes. Why wouldn't they? Low rent, IDA grants, etc.

The island's economic reliance on Dublin hurts Dublin just as much as the rest of the country. There's a tiny percentage of people who actually want massive upwards pressure on house prices, a choked rental market and a high cost of living. The majority just want to be able to have a home close to where they grew up and enjoy a reasonable cost of living.

If we incentivise remote working, the knock-on effects across all sorts of sectors are enormous. Rural towns will see an increase in populations, the local shop and the local pub will come back to life. Childcare becomes less of an issue for those working from home. Families have more time together, people spend less time commuting, which can only have positive benefits to communities, mental health, crime, eduction.

Environmentally, taking thousands (or hundreds of thousands) of commuters off the road will have massive benefits, not only for carbon emissions, but for the people who use their vehicle for work.

I personally believe we should be throwing money at this. Give employers a 10% rebate on employer's PRSI for every day an employee works from home. At the end an employee who works from home costs half as much as one in the office - and they will also accept lower pay because they work outside of Dublin and don't have to commute.

It's win-win for everyone.

lola85

Did it I read an article a few weeks back about Michael Martin saying we have to have carbon taxes in this budget?

Don’t be fooled they are all the same.

No viable choice anymore.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/extra.ie/2019/09/10/news/irish-news/micheal-martin-carbon-tax-budget/amp

“Fianna Fail leader Micheal Martin says that there needs to be a carbon tax introduced as part of Budget 2020.

His comments come as his party prepare to meet with Minister for Finance Paschal Donohoe to discuss the next budget as part of the confidence and supply agreement.”

Chips Lovell

The gilets jaunes protests in France mean that any government is going to be wary about big bang increases in fuel taxes. We can expect incremental increases instead. It looks like they're putting their focus on the purchasing of new or import of second hand vehicles. Incentivise electric. Tax the bejaysus out of petrol/diesel cars.

Re. school buses, in rural areas yes, but in urban areas there's a massive amount of kids being driven to school who could easily walk or cycle. Choking off traffic around schools might encourage people to change their behaviour.

is_that_so

MrMusician18 wrote: »

So we increase taxation to encourage a switch to alternatives but the alternatives do not exist or are an inferior substitute.

In that case there will be no change in behavior but just an increase in taxation revenue. This is just an increase hiding in a green cloak because that is politically acceptable at the moment.

TBH very hard to see what you stand on this as it could be just a tax rant or a rant because it's not being used properly.

Can't say the increase is burdensome. The alternatives are on the way but very slowly. It's the lack of ringfencing which is more problematic. Supposedly that will be addressed in the budget.

is_that_so

Chips Lovell wrote: »

The gilets jaunes protests in France mean that any government is going to be wary about big bang increases in fuel taxes. We can expect incremental increases instead. It looks like they're putting their focus on the purchasing of new or import of second hand vehicles. Incentivise electric. Tax the bejaysus out of petrol/diesel cars.

Re. school buses, in rural areas yes, but in urban areas there's a massive amount of kids being driven to school who could easily walk or cycle. Choking off traffic around schools might encourage people to change their behaviour.

Heavily taxing the main means of transport is very dumb politically and looks massively discriminatory. We have a far lower threshold of tolerance when it comes to extra taxes or what we perceive as extra taxes. In due course ICE will take a bigger hit but we're still at a point where alternative options are not fully available yet, whether through price or choice.

Tazz T

Irish Politicians answer to everything is create a new tax. Even if everyone got electric cars, recycled everything, upgraded our homes to be utterly eco-friendly, it would be a drop in the ocean compared the effect of corporations on the environment. This is where the carbon tax should be levied in its entirety. Once corporations see it's cheaper to do business environmentally, they'll change the way they operate. The tax take from this levy should go to create incentives for ordinary householders, along with a few legal changes, such as making it compulsory for every new home to have solar panels.

As someone else noted, this is a tax for the sake of raising revenue for the 'misc' budget. It will solve nothing.

Penn

Tazz T wrote: »

Irish Politicians answer to everything is create a new tax. Even if everyone got electric cars, recycled everything, upgraded our homes to be utterly eco-friendly, it would be a drop in the ocean compared the effect of corporations on the environment. This is where the carbon tax should be levied in its entirety. Once corporations see it's cheaper to do business environmentally, they'll change the way they operate. The tax take from this levy should go to create incentives for ordinary householders, along with a few legal changes, such as making it compulsory for every new home to have solar panels.

As someone else noted, this is a tax for the sake of raising revenue for the 'misc' budget. It will solve nothing.

Buildings account for almost a third of total global final energy use, 20% greenhouse gas emission and a third of black carbon emissions. Residential buildings make up a substantial portion of that, the biggest portion of which is for heating.

Upgrading homes to be energy efficient and using renewable energies to accomplish that would not be a drop in the ocean. The impact it would have should not be underestimated. A carbon tax on low-efficiency homes used as a basis to fund and encourage people to upgrade their homes and reduce the energy demand and emissions is incredibly important, so long as it's done right.

Not saying the commercial/industrial sector shouldn't face similar measures, just that residential homes are a large proportion of energy use in Ireland as a whole and needs to be addressed to comply with Irish and EU policy.

lleti

Brexit really has been a godsend for FG.

The brits making them look good even though they're not doing anything and now hiding behind not giving anything to workers claiming brexit is a risk. Piss off pricks, this is an economic expansion we need to be slashing tax.

lleti

6 euro per tonne increase.

The planet is saved!

drunkmonkey

The hiprocacy form the Government is off the charts. Carbon tax us to change our behavior but they intend spending money on airports and ports which accommodate vehicles which will pollute more than any of us would in a thousand lifetimes.
Have no doubt about it this is an extra tax with no real meaning besides revenue generation.

As for upgrading homes, it's not viable without subsidies and it's still not viable in a lot of cases with subsides as it'll never pay for the initial investment to upgrade.

BarryD2

Can't quite figure why part of the carbon tax increases are being ring fenced for the ESB and Bord na Móna? In particular the ESB is a profitable body with well paid staff. As for Bord na Móna they have been stripping the country of the deep midland bogs that were considerable carbon sinks. Having decimated these, we're now to pay a penalty tax, part of which is to reward them? There's a gap in the logic somewhere!