organic farming

Birdnuts · 07-01-2021 1:25am

Say my name wrote: »

Ah they are being changed though.

In all the decades of teagasc and before them there's never been talk of reducing nitrogen usage ..until now. There's been that barrel of nutrients imagery to advise on optimizing output. But never talk of cutting back.
Now it's forced alright from outside to meet emissions targets and we still have the vanguard action to generically call reducing nitrogen usage reduces output.
The actions they're pinning their flag to are LESS slurry spreading and clover. Why? because it's quantifiable from an accounting point of view and it's easy to understand to farmers.

Now if the likes of John Kempf and his musings were to be recommended by teagasc it would be a total embarrassment for the advisors who came through the ranks and gave and give the advise still today.
I note the secondary agricultural industry here are saying the consumer requires Grass fed over organic. It's no surprise when the same industry sells the goods to grow that grass.

It's up to the individual farmer to make their own mind up and make a living. How you do that is the same as always. Minimize the expense. Maximize the income. How you do that is through knowledge.

I'm reading a book atm which you may be familiar with Grass,Soil,Hope - should be compulsory reading for those shaping Ag policy in this country

Say my name · 07-01-2021 2:12am

Birdnuts wrote: »

I'm reading a book atm which you may be familiar with Grass,Soil,Hope - should be compulsory reading for those shaping Ag policy in this country

Sounds interesting.

No i haven't read that one yet.

I'm hearing a tillage advocate on another medium. Now this guy would be totally pure tillage. Blame the grain buyers. Woe is me. Tillage is the saviour of the country. We're carbon and environmental friendly.
He might be correct only for he ploughs his ground to the ditch. Releasing carbon. Hacks his ditch to the clay. His soil washes into the streams. He then would be an advocate for every spray going. Hates livestock and wouldn't dream of them on his farm. And gets kicks against any dairy farmer going.

I'll look into that book. Maybe make a present of it.

07-01-2021 11:11am

Say my name wrote: »

Sounds interesting.

No i haven't read that one yet.

I'm hearing a tillage advocate on another medium. Now this guy would be totally pure tillage. Blame the grain buyers. Woe is me. Tillage is the saviour of the country. We're carbon and environmental friendly.
He might be correct only for he ploughs his ground to the ditch. Releasing carbon. Hacks his ditch to the clay. His soil washes into the streams. He then would be an advocate for every spray going. Hates livestock and wouldn't dream of them on his farm. And gets kicks against any dairy farmer going.

I'll look into that book. Maybe make a present of it.

I got popular fast on another medium, probably the same, for saying if I had tillage quality land I wouldn't need or take subs.

Say my name · 07-01-2021 11:17am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I got popular fast on another medium, probably the same, for saying if I had tillage quality land I wouldn't need or take subs.

Ah we luves ya here anyway.

wrangler · 07-01-2021 11:40am

Deleted User wrote: »

I got popular fast on another medium, probably the same, for saying if I had tillage quality land I wouldn't need or take subs.

I think you're being a bit optimistic there,
If you're doing well at farming , subs enable you to do it better, to be better equipped, makes life easier.
If you're not a good farmer they keep ya out of trouble.

07-01-2021 11:43am

wrangler wrote: »

I think you're being a bit optimistic there,
If you're doing well at farming , subs enable you to do it better, to be better equipped, makes life easier.
If you're not a good farmer they keep ya out of trouble.

I'm being realistic. Farmers have two very broad choices, broaden their education and seize opportunity or stay in the conventional/subs model. I prefer the former.

wrangler · 07-01-2021 11:53am

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm being realistic. Farmers have two very broad choices, broaden their education and seize opportunity or stay in the conventional/subs model. I prefer the former.

A lot of farmers would forego subs to enable them to farm without regulation, I know there's one on here that is farming without subs partly because it enables him to farm at any stocking rate, I know every farmer has to farm to the rules but in practise those that don't submit BPS and maps aren't monitored properly.
Surely that has to be an advantage of subs that the environment has to be somewhat protected.

Just edited to say I'[d agree there's loads of options for people to get educated and move on rather than what they're at against factories, That's just childish

Water John · 07-01-2021 12:03pm

Farming without subs and producing all you like, is a fools errand if the product only gets a crap price.

07-01-2021 12:05pm

wrangler wrote: »

A lot of farmers would forego subs to enable them to farm without regulation, I know there's one on here that is farming without subs partly because it enables him to farm at any stocking rate, I know every farmer has to farm to the rules but in practise those that don't submit BPS and maps aren't monitored properly.
Surely that has to be an advantage of subs that the environment has to be somewhat protected.

Just edited to say I'[d agree there's loads of options for people to get educated and move on rather than what they're at against factories, That's just childish

Subs protect the environment now? That'll make the comics front page this week. That's not an argument I'll be joining one way or another as it's pointless to my own advancement

It wasn't what I was saying. If I owned tillage land, I wouldn't need or want subs to farm and make profit. Just as simple as that.

Water John · 07-01-2021 12:08pm

Quitter you'd need a lot of it to make a living from conventional tillage or supply organic oats to someone like Flahavans.

07-01-2021 12:10pm

Water John wrote: »

Quitter you'd need a lot of it to make a living from conventional tillage or supply organic oats to someone like Flahavans.

You're making the same miscalculation they did on Twitter. I never said a word about carrying out tillage. I said "If I had tillage quality land..." Open the options instead of narrowing them.

wrangler · 07-01-2021 12:12pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Subs protect the environment now? That'll make the comics front page this week. That's not an argument I'll be joining one way or another as it's pointless to my own advancement

It wasn't what I was saying. If I owned tillage land, I wouldn't need or want subs to farm and make profit. Just as simple as that.

I didn't need the subs to make profit, but I wouldn't be making a minimum wage without them. Well managed sheep are profitable just not profitable enough.

Water John · 07-01-2021 12:17pm

wrangler wrote: »

I didn't need the subs to make profit, but I wouldn't be making a minimum wage without them. Well managed sheep are profitable just not profitable enough.

The price of almost all produce is being held at that subsistence level (excuse the pun).

Say my name · 07-01-2021 4:39pm

blue5000 wrote: »

Teagasc aren't going to change tactics while IFI is one of their golden geese.

Just by coincidence the book "Terra Preta" by Scheub, Pieplow, Schmidt and Draper came in the post today.

Read the last paragraph on the first page shown. The next page just about mirrors here too.

Gawddawggonnit · 07-01-2021 5:56pm

endainoz wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/farming/arid-40201664.html?type=amp

"Uptake of Organic farming is very low"

Have a real issue with that line considering the amount of people that were refused entry to the scheme in 2018.

There was a scheme here a few years back where you would get a maximum of €15k per year for three years during the transition period (3yrs transition period here). The ‘envelope’ was empty in a matter of months...didn’t slow the pace of transition one jot.

Interestingly, it’s the large scale tillage operations that are charging gung-ho into organic...

07-01-2021 6:19pm

wrangler wrote: »

I didn't need the subs to make profit, but I wouldn't be making a minimum wage without them. Well managed sheep are profitable just not profitable enough.

I'm not telling you what to do. I'm saying if I had such land I wouldn't want or need subs

endainoz · 18-01-2021 12:30pm

Has anyone here used organic fertilizer for their meadows for silage? I have been debating getting a couple of tonnes of Organic feet from Fruit hill farm.

minerleague · 18-01-2021 4:56pm

Something that struck me recently re organic beef production is that the typical customer for organic is more likely than general population to be thinking about eating less / no meat !

Water John · 18-01-2021 5:09pm

minerleague wrote: »

Something that struck me recently re organic beef production is that the typical customer for organic is more likely than general population to be thinking about eating less / no meat !

Basically you're saying meat eaters will eat any ould sh1te. Well you're quite incorrect and suggest you head for the Vegan forum, to engage with like minded folk.
Read the other day that, no civilisation tribe or society did not use meat as a source and maybe the Keto diet low carbs/sugar is the correct option:

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/jan/03/the-case-for-keto-review-why-a-full-fat-diet-should-be-on-the-menu

Base price · 18-01-2021 5:22pm

minerleague wrote: »

Something that struck me recently re organic beef production is that the typical customer for organic is more likely than general population to be thinking about eating less / no meat !

No I wouldn't think so. My SIL only buys organic chicken and beef but due to it's high cost she wouldn't consume as much meat as I would. She prefers to pay the premium knowing that she is helping the environment whilst supporting local organic producers.

I don't buy organic due to it's high cost and the fact that I produce quality beef that I should get paid more for but that is argument for another day.

yosemitesam1 · 18-01-2021 5:34pm

endainoz wrote: »

Has anyone here used organic fertilizer for their meadows for silage? I have been debating getting a couple of tonnes of Organic feet from Fruit hill farm.

What were you looking at? Those organic pellet type fertilizers look very expensive for what they'll provide

minerleague · 18-01-2021 5:53pm

Water John wrote: »

Basically you're saying meat eaters will eat any ould sh1te. Well you're quite incorrect and suggest you head for the Vegan forum, to engage with like minded folk.
Read the other day that, no civilisation tribe or society did not use meat as a source and maybe the Keto diet low carbs/sugar is the correct option:

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/jan/03/the-case-for-keto-review-why-a-full-fat-diet-should-be-on-the-menu

Dont know where you got that ?? Dont agree with vegan mentality at all. Humans have evolved eating meat. It was just something that struck me ( no great or deep thinking ) but proportionally i'd say people who buy organic would be following the line that beef farming is bad for planet ( not all by any stretch )

minerleague · 18-01-2021 5:55pm

Base price wrote: »

No I wouldn't think so. My SIL only buys organic chicken and beef but due to it's high cost she wouldn't consume as much meat as I would. She prefers to pay the premium knowing that she is helping the environment whilst supporting local organic producers.

I don't buy organic due to it's high cost and the fact that I produce quality beef that I should get paid more for but that is argument for another day.

This is what i'm talking about in part

endainoz · 18-01-2021 5:56pm

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

What were you looking at? Those organic pellet type fertilizers look very expensive for what they'll provide

It would be the type yeah, with the idea of hopefully putting some nutrients into the soil while also adding mixed species into the sward. It would also be getting slurry on the same ground.

While they are a bit expensive, if it meant an extra 30 to 40 extra bales of assume it would be worth it? Maybe not.

endainoz · 18-01-2021 6:00pm

minerleague wrote: »

This is what i'm talking about in part

It would still work out better for the producer to get a premium price for their organic products less offer than buying supermarket conventional stuff more often.

There is certainly room for both to exist though, I have bought a few organic meat boxes and while the price was high, the quality was impossible to beat. I still buy the conventional stuff, but after getting into the organic scheme, I thought it would be good to support organic producers. Practice what you preach and all that.

minerleague · 18-01-2021 6:09pm

endainoz wrote: »

It would still work out better for the producer to get a premium price for their organic products less offer than buying supermarket conventional stuff more often.

There is certainly room for both to exist though, I have bought a few organic meat boxes and while the price was high, the quality was impossible to beat. I still buy the conventional stuff, but after getting into the organic scheme, I thought it would be good to support organic producers. Practice what you preach and all that.

Again i'm not knocking organic farming or people who buy organic produce ( but i think i read somewhere that certain organic meat products are selling for no premium over conventional product)

Water John · 18-01-2021 7:05pm

Miner, I accept your position is as you say. what may have been said is that beef fro some organic animals is sold to conventional processors and thus doesn't get a premium price.
With beef the difference in price paid to the producer would be in the order of 20/25%.
White meat like chicken would be fed organic grains and this pushes up the costs substantially. Beef cattle would get very little organic grain. It just wouldn't pay the producer to use it.

Markcheese · 18-01-2021 7:42pm

endainoz wrote: »

It would be the type yeah, with the idea of hopefully putting some nutrients into the soil while also adding mixed species into the sward. It would also be getting slurry on the same ground.

While they are a bit expensive, if it meant an extra 30 to 40 extra bales of assume it would be worth it? Maybe not.

You'd want to have a good look at what's in them ( and its availability to grass at different temps and times of the year.. ) , and how that ties in with what your ground is short of at times.. could those nutrients be provided more cheaply easily from another source ?
Can you mark out 2 near identical small paddocks and do a trial run for a year ?

endainoz · 18-01-2021 7:53pm

Markcheese wrote: »

You'd want to have a good look at what's in them ( and its availability to grass at different temps and times of the year.. ) , and how that ties in with what your ground is short of at times.. could those nutrients be provided more cheaply easily from another source ?
Can you mark out 2 near identical small paddocks and do a trial run for a year ?

It doesn't seem like many people use them so, in the summer of 2019 the growth was quite good with no feet. The crop of 2020 was quite poor, had put it down to the drought but it would have been interesting to know if pellet fert would make any difference. A deep soil analysis is needed for sure.

Water John · 18-01-2021 7:58pm

Grassland have this product:
https://grasslandagro.ie/soil-grass-nutrition/soil-conditioners/physiolith/

Any opinions?
Say My Name probably has a home recipe for it.

Say my name · 18-01-2021 8:42pm

Water John wrote: »

Grassland have this product:
https://grasslandagro.ie/soil-grass-nutrition/soil-conditioners/physiolith/

Any opinions?
Say My Name probably has a home recipe for it.

Be more up Grasstomilk's street.

I've used a calcified seaweed product from a Tipperary company though.
Just went out with 50kgs/acre. They recommend more in a single application.
Went out really to ensure a build up of minerals in forage. Very costly, so much that I'd be trying my own made stuff.

Spoiler alert: fert companies are going to put their prices up to compensate for lower sales from all this LESS, clover, biological interest and even advisor advice..to keep their profits up.

yosemitesam1 · 18-01-2021 9:13pm

endainoz wrote: »

It doesn't seem like many people use them so, in the summer of 2019 the growth was quite good with no feet. The crop of 2020 was quite poor, had put it down to the drought but it would have been interesting to know if pellet fert would make any difference. A deep soil analysis is needed for sure.

They seem to be more aimed at high value veg crops. Still possible to go with p,k+s from the likes of rock phosphate etc, would probably be better value but still not cheap.

Water John · 18-01-2021 10:07pm

One of the options that would have value is to sow some deep rooting plants. FYM also to get the worms doing the deep lifting.

endainoz · 18-01-2021 10:49pm

Water John wrote: »

One of the options that would have value is to sow some deep rooting plants. FYM also to get the worms doing the deep lifting.

FYM will certainly be going out on the ground but will be hopefully putting it out towards the back end of the year so it has time to break down properly. Will be making an attempt to add some herbages and other grass species but I feel they might have a tough time establishing in a meadow. Might chance stitching them as opposed to broadcasting.

Water John · 18-01-2021 11:07pm

Must look at the option of composting the FYM myself. Make it into a potato pit shape no more than 1.5m high and wet it while making it. Then turn about once a month, result black gold.
Guy in Sligo is the best proponent and does courses.
Sorry lads if I'm repeating myself. I forget sometimes what I've written already.

If you mow tightly before it gives the seed about 17 days to get started.

wrangler · 18-01-2021 11:23pm

Water John wrote: »

Must look at the option of composting the FYM myself. Make it into a potato pit shape no more than 1.5m high and wet it while making it. Then turn about once a month, result black gold.
Guy in Sligo is the best proponent and does courses.
Sorry lads if I'm repeating myself. I forget sometimes what I've written already.

If you mow tightly before it gives the seed about 17 days to get started.

I always turn the strawy sheep dung every fortnight through the summer, we're using last years now in the veggy gardens at moment...... as you say black gold
Even after six mths it's fairly composted when i spread 80% of it on the land in the autumn

endainoz · 18-01-2021 11:46pm

Water John wrote: »

Must look at the option of composting the FYM myself. Make it into a potato pit shape no more than 1.5m high and wet it while making it. Then turn about once a month, result black gold.
Guy in Sligo is the best proponent and does courses.
Sorry lads if I'm repeating myself. I forget sometimes what I've written already.

If you mow tightly before it gives the seed about 17 days to get started.

Yeah I'll be looking at something like that, the meadow already got a good blast of clover broadcasted on it last summer.

I suppose it would be a good idea to get a decent amount of slurry out onto it first, then a tight graze, then stich in the seed. Of course the weather will have to be in favour to do that.

Water John · 18-01-2021 11:50pm

Some would say put out watery slurry after sowing. I think it's the regrowth might benefit from a heavy pre sowing slurry application.

JohnChadwick · 28-01-2021 5:36pm

Is there producer groups for organic beef farmers? Is there any potential for the majority of the 1800 organic beef farmers in Ireland to mobilise and exploit the power of numbers when selling their produce?

Markcheese · 28-01-2021 8:11pm

endainoz wrote: »

Yeah I'll be looking at something like that, the meadow already got a good blast of clover broadcasted on it last summer.

I suppose it would be a good idea to get a decent amount of slurry out onto it first, then a tight graze, then stich in the seed. Of course the weather will have to be in favour to do that.

A lots going to depend on what seeds your sowing and what suits, most grass and clover just need to make contact with the soil , if you can scratch up the soil with a chain harrow a few times then all the better , and ideally a damp week afterwards ...
Stitching in with a machine probably gives more options.. ( if the weather conditions aren't perfect ) ,
Slurry too close to sowing might boost the grasses already there...and you're trying to stunt them to give the new stuff a chance to establish ..

endainoz · 02-02-2021 6:59pm

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/e230a-minister-hackett-announces-re-opening-of-organic-farming-scheme/

Organic Scheme opening again

Water John · 02-02-2021 9:03pm

Thanks for the heads up on that. Is there a 30Ha limit on the payment?
Just looked the answer to my Q seems to be 60Ha, lazy bollix.

endainoz · 02-02-2021 9:13pm

Water John wrote: »

Thanks for the heads up on that. Is there a 30Ha limit on the payment?
Just looked the answer to my Q seems to be 60Ha, lazy bollix.

Seems they are releasing more details on the scheme when it launches in March. I'd say the demand will be much higher this time around. The certification crowds will be happy with this increase anyway.

Pity no priority given to the people that got rejected last time but it does give them another chance.

Water John · 02-02-2021 9:19pm

Might have a look to see can I lease some ground. Depends, but could see the present owner holding or receiving back some of the BPS, any opinions?

rounders · 02-02-2021 9:58pm

endainoz wrote: »

Pity no priority given to the people that got rejected last time but it does give them another chance.

"I will also ensure that farmers who were not successful in gaining entry to the previous scheme but who have continued to farm organically, have their commitment acknowledged, through priority access.”

Sounds like they are giving some sort of priority to previous applicants

Water John · 02-02-2021 10:14pm

Rounders yipee, I'll have to give you a virtual hug, good news. I'd say very few followed though and stayed farming organically. Most were really pissed off, having lost production, spent money doing a plan, joining a organic accreditation org and doing an organic course.

BTW here's a good art on hedgerows:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/feb/02/reservoirs-of-life-hedgerows-help-uk-net-zero-2050-aoe

endainoz · 03-02-2021 12:19am

rounders wrote: »

Sounds like they are giving some sort of priority to previous applicants

Ah I hadn't seen that part, great news!

tractorporn · 03-02-2021 1:14am

endainoz wrote: »

Seems they are releasing more details on the scheme when it launches in March. I'd say the demand will be much higher this time around. The certification crowds will be happy with this increase anyway.

Pity no priority given to the people that got rejected last time but it does give them another chance.

Only 300 places available and the same marking scheme as before so I doubt the OCBs will be that happy. With nearly 70% of people refused entry the last time it's not gonna entice anyone to join especially beef and sheep men.

jntsnk · 03-02-2021 1:13pm

Is it worth the hassle. Payment per ha is poor.

endainoz · 03-02-2021 1:24pm

jntsnk wrote: »

Is it worth the hassle. Payment per ha is poor.

Depends how many hectares you have. Compared to most schemes I'd say payment is quite good.

But I think you'd have to be fairly into it to get things out of it. The organic tams scheme can be worth a person's while if the use it properly I think.

organic farming

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