End of #metoo

leggo · 05-12-2018 5:18pm

DanDan6592 wrote: »

You don't know none of them will accuse you. You just presume they won't. Same way a women who goes home to a mans house presumes he won't rape her. And the vast majority of the time the accusation/rape doesn't happen, but it can. You dont need to change anything you do necessarily, but don't be so naive at the same time.
Also you don't know if you've been creepy or not, it's a subjective thing. This is what is what seemingly worries people. Neill DeGrasse Tyson lifted up a womens sleeve to look at her tattoo, which has now led to him being accused of sexual assault (amongst other accusations). I'd imagine he didn't think himself creep doing that.

Then they’re giving themselves anxiety over nothing, if they’ve done nothing. If someone put up an accusation naming me, I’d be happy to cooperate fully knowing everything was above board. If they named me publicly on Twitter or the likes, we’d be off to court to clear my good name. And I’d be successful and fine in doing both because by law you still need evidence to back up an accusation and there would be none. If some strangers decided in the meantime to judge me, **** them, I’m not a small enough human to be bothered by that. Those that know me and matter would know something wasn’t right immediately. It’d have little to no affect on my job, my family, my friends, my relationship or the amount of sleep I get at night. It’d just be a weird thing that happened to me one time. Certainly nothing to freak out on boards.ie in anticipation of.

Also why do people act like creepy is this obscure, subjective thing? I work in an environment where creepiness is sadly an everyday occurrence (hence me coming out so strongly on the side I’m on) and it’s VERY easy to spot the line, it’s also easy to spot that lads are fully aware that what they’re doing is wrong as they typically stop as soon as they notice another man is watching them. I saw the NDGT story and I personally lean more towards believing his Facebook account of things, but still think he’s a bit of a tool for what he confessed to. As a celebrity, he should’ve known better to put his hands on someone without consent, as at the very least they could alledge something for a bit of cash. He probably knew this, but also felt that because he’s a celebrity the fan would be ‘honoured’ to have him touch her arm. So it’s his own hubris that led to that and he’s learned better now. Don’t have him lose work or be blacklisted, that’s heavy-handed, just cop on Neil and think in future.

Why do people find that hard to understand? Do you guys just go around touching and stroking and grabbing people’s arms all day? Don’t touch people unless you know for certain they want to be touched! It’s not complicated and it’s not difficult!

B0jangles · 05-12-2018 5:24pm

professore wrote: »

I said I don't worry about it.
What is it with some people ... have you never been in a situation where someone tried to completely screw you over? It's happened to me several times - not with sexual harassment, but the kind of people that screw people over would have no compunction about something like that, where money is involved especially. Practically the whole business world operates like this at times, and it's gender neutral.

Rather than accept that maybe sexual harrasment is commonplace and widespread, you chose to imagine a scenario in which someone lies about being sexually harrassed to 'win' a promotion - a scenario which is just... beyond implausible if you've done any research into how complaints about harrassment in the workplace are generally dealt with.

Why?

(also when people try to screw other people over, they tend to do so in as easy a way as possible, not the hardest.)

p1akuw47h5r3it · 05-12-2018 6:12pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

What a stupid way to go through life. a life of fear and ignorance.

For the average man yes. Not particularly so if you are a politician, especially a Republican one.

ohnonotgmail · 05-12-2018 6:14pm

DanDan6592 wrote: »

For the average man yes. Not particularly so if you are a politician, especially a Republican one.

Is his approach common among politicians? i dont think it is. I think the guy has some deep rooted issues with women. Who else calls their wife 'mother' in public?

p1akuw47h5r3it · 05-12-2018 6:15pm

leggo wrote: »

Happy to have any and all posts addressed, just like you were able to here. It’s just mad how those who are against an anti-rape movement couldn’t respect one request in one post not to do one thing. Is that a character trait I see emerging??

No it isn't. And btw it is an anti-sexual assault and anti-sexual harassment movement. It's much broader than just rape.

p1akuw47h5r3it · 05-12-2018 6:29pm

leggo wrote: »

Then they’re giving themselves anxiety over nothing, if they’ve done nothing. If someone put up an accusation naming me, I’d be happy to cooperate fully knowing everything was above board. If they named me publicly on Twitter or the likes, we’d be off to court to clear my good name. And I’d be successful and fine in doing both because by law you still need evidence to back up an accusation and there would be none. If some strangers decided in the meantime to judge me, **** them, I’m not a small enough human to be bothered by that. Those that know me and matter would know something wasn’t right immediately. It’d have little to no affect on my job, my family, my friends, my relationship or the amount of sleep I get at night. It’d just be a weird thing that happened to me one time. Certainly nothing to freak out on boards.ie in anticipation of.

Why do you find it hard to understand that men have lost their jobs and careers on the back of sexual assault allegations? Or even on the accusation of just being sexist, remember that botanist from a few years ago. There's also this guy https://quillette.com/2018/09/25/how-an-anonymous-accusation-derailed-my-life/ .Or google Steven Galloway. And there are more stories like it. Now one thing that most of these men have in common is the fields in which they work (academia and the media). However it could potentially spill over into "real" life.

leggo wrote: »

Also why do people act like creepy is this obscure, subjective thing? I work in an environment where creepiness is sadly an everyday occurrence (hence me coming out so strongly on the side I’m on) and it’s VERY easy to spot the line, it’s also easy to spot that lads are fully aware that what they’re doing is wrong as they typically stop as soon as they notice another man is watching them. I saw the NDGT story and I personally lean more towards believing his Facebook account of things, but still think he’s a bit of a tool for what he confessed to. As a celebrity, he should’ve known better to put his hands on someone without consent, as at the very least they could alledge something for a bit of cash. He probably knew this, but also felt that because he’s a celebrity the fan would be ‘honoured’ to have him touch her arm. So it’s his own hubris that led to that and he’s learned better now. Don’t have him lose work or be blacklisted, that’s heavy-handed, just cop on Neil and think in future.

Because it is subjective, and there is a very good chance it cause him to lose work/be blacklisted.

leggo wrote: »

Why do people find that hard to understand? Do you guys just go around touching and stroking and grabbing people’s arms all day? Don’t touch people unless you know for certain they want to be touched! It’s not complicated and it’s not difficult!

Whats hard to understand is how touching someones arm is now considered sexual assault.
.

p1akuw47h5r3it · 05-12-2018 6:32pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Is his approach common among politicians? i dont think it is. I think the guy has some deep rooted issues with women. Who else calls their wife 'mother' in public?

It will be in the future, at least in America, if we continue on the current trajectory.

Reviews and Books Galore · 05-12-2018 6:42pm

leggo wrote: »

Happy to have any and all posts addressed, just like you were able to here. It’s just mad how those who are against an anti-rape movement couldn’t respect one request in one post not to do one thing. Is that a character trait I see emerging??

Have you just implied that the people replying may not take no for an answer in a sexual situation?

Mrsmum · 05-12-2018 6:45pm

DanDan6592 wrote: »

Whats hard to understand is how touching someones arm is now considered sexual assault.
.

Was it not that he followed her tattoo all the way up her arm and under the shoulder strap of her dress and up to her neck ?
A hand going underneath your clothing no matter how briefly I think is a bit more than lightly touching someone's arm.

Chris_Heilong · 05-12-2018 6:49pm

End of #metoo

Hops so, it was an effective weapon against those in power in hollywood and a wake up call for those producers who were praying on young actors/actresses who would do anything to get into the industry however it has also been used as a weapon by those who wish to wield it against men in general and it is for this reason it needs to die out.

p1akuw47h5r3it · 05-12-2018 6:49pm

Mrsmum wrote: »

Was it not that he followed her tattoo all the way up her arm and under the shoulder strap of her dress and up to her neck ?
A hand going underneath your clothing no matter how briefly I think is a bit more than lightly touching someone's arm.

Would you consider that sexual assault?

James Brown · 05-12-2018 6:51pm

nullzero wrote: »

What does that mean?
Should false rape accusations be entertained because real rape also occurs?

Until they are found to be false.
If some backward folk think there is such a thing as 'asking for it', then they'd likely have a different bar set for what is rape than any victim would.

Mrsmum · 05-12-2018 6:54pm

DanDan6592 wrote: »

Would you consider that sexual assault?

See I think you described it in the lightest way possible. No I don't think he should put his hand under her collar, do you ? I had a teacher at school when I was in National school. He would stand behind you, put his hands around your neck and put his two thumbs at the back under the girls collars. It was the lightest touch ever but I can assure you all the girls didn't like it one bit.

p1akuw47h5r3it · 05-12-2018 6:58pm

Mrsmum wrote: »

See I think you described it in the lightest way possible. No I don't think he should put his hand under her collar, do you ? I had a teacher at school when I was in National school. He would stand behind you, put his hands around your neck and put his two thumbs at the back under the girls collars. It was the lightest touch ever but I can assure you all the girls didn't like it one bit.

I didn't describe it as lightly touching either though. Regardless you didn't answer my question. Would you consider it sexual assault?

Neill DeGrasse wasn't touching a child. I fail to see the relevence of that story with all due respect.

nullzero · 05-12-2018 7:03pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Until they are found to be false.
If some backward folk think there is such a thing as 'asking for it', then they'd likely have a different bar set for what is rape than any victim would.

There needs to be protection of defendants identity as well as the plaintiff in that case.
The asking for it argument is surely set for the Bin by now.

Mrsmum · 05-12-2018 7:20pm

DanDan6592 wrote: »

I didn't describe it as lightly touching either though. Regardless you didn't answer my question. Would you consider it sexual assault?

Neill DeGrasse wasn't touching a child. I fail to see the relevence of that story with all due respect.

I don't think he should be charged with sexual assault but I think he and the general male population should cop on and realise that this is not just nothing. Have you any idea how sick and tired women are of having to excuse or tell off these guys the whole time. Just because it's not an assault doesn't mean it's not creepy and imo if the metoo movement gets people to check their behaviour that would be a good thing. The relevance of my story is just that an unwelcome touch is an unwelcome touch no matter what age one is. Who am I to say that woman didn't feel as uncomfortable as I did in the moment.

Btw you didn't answer my question either. Do you think it was ok for him to put his hand under the collar of her dress ?

p1akuw47h5r3it · 05-12-2018 7:46pm

Mrsmum wrote: »

I don't think he should be charged with sexual assault but I think he and the general male population should cop on and realise that this is not just nothing. Have you any idea how sick and tired women are of having to excuse or tell off these guys the whole time. Just because it's not an assault doesn't mean it's not creepy and imo if the metoo movement gets people to check their behaviour that would be a good thing. The relevance of my story is just that an unwelcome touch is an unwelcome touch no matter what age one is. Who am I to say that woman didn't feel as uncomfortable as I did in the moment.

Btw you didn't answer my question either. Do you think it was ok for him to put his hand under the collar of her dress ?

You seemingly missed the whole point of what I was saying then, as I was suggesting that him being accused of sexual assault for doing what he did is ridiculous i.e. the #metoo movement has over the last couple of years lost the plot.

Apologies I missed your question. No I don't think it's right, but it's not sexual harassment either, which is what it is being presented as ergo my above statement. Most men don't do these things, the same way not every woman is a walking emotional rollercoaster. So your comment about the "general male population" is completely misplaced.

meeeeh · 05-12-2018 8:11pm

DanDan6592 wrote: »

It will be in the future, at least in America, if we continue on the current trajectory.

And what makes you think that? Trump has a list of accusers, he was taped suggesting assault and he was still voted into the office. All it proves is that assault accusations are completely ignored and people are voted into the office anyway. If anything it showed women how they should stay quiet because nothing will change.

And as an example of a man who was hard done you an example Goggle exec who left with 200 million (or something like that) pay cheque.

Mrsmum · 05-12-2018 8:14pm

DanDan6592 wrote: »

You seemingly missed the whole point of what I was saying then, as I was suggesting that him being accused of sexual assault for doing what he did is ridiculous i.e. the #metoo movement has over the last couple of years lost the plot.

Apologies I missed your question. No I don't think it's right, but it's not sexual harassment either, which is what it is being presented as ergo my above statement. Most men don't do these things, the same way not every woman is a walking emotional rollercoaster. So your comment about the "general male population" is completely misplaced.

I haven't seen it reported that he is accused of sexual assault over this incident but rather accused of sexual misconduct which fits the bill better imo.

You say most men don't do these things, Yet most women have numerous stories of these things done and said to them so I guess it's just that some men are incredibly busy.

p1akuw47h5r3it · 05-12-2018 8:43pm

Mrsmum wrote: »

I haven't seen it reported that he is accused of sexual assault over this incident but rather accused of sexual misconduct which fits the bill better imo.

But it's only sexual misconduct if there was a sexual element to it, which he denies. She even says herself that he was looking for pluto on her arm.

“After we had taken the picture, he noticed my tattoo and kind of grabbed me to look at it, and was really obsessed about whether I had Pluto on this tattoo or not … and then he looked for Pluto, and followed the tattoo into my dress,” Allers said.

Weird yes. Made her feel uncomfortable? Seemingly. But in this new #metoo world it's instantly assumed he was doing this for sexual reasons, as opposed to just being a complete nerd.

Some newsoutlets headlined the story as Sexual Assault but withing the story would talk about sexual misconduct. So fair enough on that point. There is however an attempt to blur the lines between sexual assault and the "lesser crime" of sexual misconduct

[/QUOTE]You say most men don't do these things, Yet most women have numerous stories of these things done and said to them so I guess it's just that some men are incredibly busy.[/QUOTE]

"saying" something to someone is not the same as physically touching someone. Regardless, most people have stories like these, both men and women. Noone is really interested in hearing mens stories. And I'm not complaining, just stating it how it is.

p1akuw47h5r3it · 05-12-2018 8:59pm

meeeeh wrote: »

And what makes you think that? Trump has a list of accusers, he was taped suggesting assault and he was still voted into the office. All it proves is that assault accusations are completely ignored and people are voted into the office anyway. If anything it showed women how they should stay quiet because nothing will change.

Ignored? The media never shut up about Trumps comments regarding women letting him grab their pussy and how he was a misogynist, sexist etc. He won because he was up against Hillary Clinton whose whole campaign was based on the fact that she was female and other identity politicist nonsense.

Trump at least talked about making America great, bringing back jobs which gave some people hope, regardless how ridiculous it was.

Regardless, what future politician will want the coverage that Trump got? Better to be squeaky clean like Obama was.

meeeeh wrote: »

And as an example of a man who was hard done you an example Goggle exec who left with 200 million (or something like that) pay cheque.

It was 90 million. Yes left because of an allegation. Nothing proven. An allegation. And why did google want to cover it up? Because of all the negative publicity it would bring. It would just be assumed to be true. The Google exec literally proves the opposite of what you want it to.

Google said this week that, since 2016, employees who had left the company after sexual harassment allegations had not received a pay-off.

Nothing proven. An allegation, and they lost their job.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-46047834

Mrsmum · 05-12-2018 9:11pm

@DanDan, I am not trying to say everything is on the same level of seriousness but I just think Metoo might have the effect of making people a bit more careful in word and deed and tbh I can't see what's so bad about that.
I have no doubt whatsoever that there are female bosses and the likes that sexually misbehave towards male employees too causing confusion, awkwardness and even fear in them so let's have their stories. I'm sure it's just as bad for males that it is happening to. And again it doesn't have to be assault, just a boss or colleague causing such embarrassment with sexual jokes etc to make one dread going to work. Grand if its welcome banter but in a lot of these cases the person is enjoying that it's not welcome and that's the problem.

p1akuw47h5r3it · 05-12-2018 9:16pm

Mrsmum wrote: »

@DanDan, I am not trying to say everything is on the same level of seriousness but I just think Metoo might have the effect of making people a bit more careful in word and deed and tbh I can't see what's so bad about that.
I have no doubt whatsoever that there are female bosses and the likes that sexually misbehave towards male employees too causing confusion, awkwardness and even fear in them so let's have their stories. I'm sure it's just as bad for males that it is happening to. And again it doesn't have to be assault, just a boss or colleague causing such embarrassment with sexual jokes etc to make one dread going to work. Grand if its welcome banter but in a lot of these cases the person is enjoying that it's not welcome and that's the problem.

Fair enough, I don't doubt that it happens to women more. My argument nis that the #metoo movement is past the point of making people check their behaviour, way past that. And is something a lot more cynical now.

meeeeh · 05-12-2018 9:21pm

DanDan6592 wrote: »

Ignored? The media never shut up about Trumps comments regarding women letting him grab their pussy and how he was a misogynist, sexist etc. He won because he was up against Hillary Clinton whose whole campaign was based on the fact that she was female and other identity politicist nonsense.

Trump at least talked about making America great, bringing back jobs which gave some people hope, regardless how ridiculous it was.

Regardless, what future politician will want the coverage that Trump got? Better to be squeaky clean like Obama was.

It was 90 million. Yes left because of an allegation. Nothing proven. An allegation. And why did google want to cover it up? Because of all the negative publicity it would bring. It would just be assumed to be true. The Google exec literally proves the opposite of what you want it to.

Nothing proven. An allegation, and they lost their job.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-46047834

How do you know it was nothing proven? Or it could be that it suited everyone better not to dig further or report it to the police.

As for Trump you claimed that accusations of sexual assault damage career. It didn't happen to Trump or Kavanagh but it did affect the life of Dr Ford. I don't know if her accusations were true but she is the one whose life was turned upside down.

p1akuw47h5r3it · 05-12-2018 9:47pm

meeeeh wrote: »

How do you know it was nothing proven? Or it could be that it suited everyone better not to dig further or report it to the police.

As for Trump you claimed that accusations of sexual assault damage career. It didn't happen to Trump or Kavanagh but it did affect the life of Dr Ford. I don't know if her accusations were true but she is the one whose life was turned upside down.

Because there was no investigation. It was an allegation. Suited everyone, even the accuser?

What about the other people who have lost jobs based of nothing but an accusation?

Reviews and Books Galore · 05-12-2018 10:47pm

leggo wrote: »

Happy to have any and all posts addressed, just like you were able to here. It’s just mad how those who are against an anti-rape movement couldn’t respect one request in one post not to do one thing. Is that a character trait I see emerging??

Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »

Have you just implied that the people replying may not take no for an answer in a sexual situation?

What do people think about this exchange?
I am genuinely curious if I am right about the implication or if it could be construed in another manner.

Bigbagofcans · 06-12-2018 12:07am

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

End of #metoo

Hops so, it was an effective weapon against those in power in hollywood and a wake up call for those producers who were praying on young actors/actresses who would do anything to get into the industry however it has also been used as a weapon by those who wish to wield it against men in general and it is for this reason it needs to die out.

I didn't think the producers were that holy.

py2006 · 06-12-2018 5:25am

Mrsmum wrote: »

You say most men don't do these things, Yet most women have numerous stories of these things done and said to them so I guess it's just that some men are incredibly busy.

Right so those of us who don't rape or sexually assault women are not doing so because we are good people but merely because we "too busy" to do it?????

professore · 06-12-2018 9:39am

I definitely believe sexual harassment exists and is widespread, although far far less than 10 years ago. However this isnt the same thing as saying men can't be falsely accused. And the bar now is so low in the US at least, pretty much any interaction with a woman can be deemed sexual harassment. Like the guy in the pic.

Doesn't surprise me at all. Some women really believe that every interaction any man has with them is sexual.

Let's put it this way : the numbers of actual sexual harassing men and the numbers of paranoid accusing women - on a scale from calling a man creepy they don't like, spreading untrue rumours about them or full blown false accusations - are about the same.

Since both have multiple victims, pretty much everyone of either gender will have at least one story about meeting at least one. This doesn't mean that ALL men or women are like this.

It astonishes me how people of both genders deny this about their own gender, or lots of men deny it about the opposite gender.

Mrsmum · 06-12-2018 11:00am

py2006 wrote: »

Right so those of us who don't rape or sexually assault women are not doing so because we are good people but merely because we "too busy" to do it?????

Right so those men who don't eat meat are not doing so because they are health or environment conscious but because they are "too busy" to do it?????

Makes as much sense as your statement.

The vast majority of men do not rape or sexually assault obviously but a sizeable proportion behave in sexually offensive ways towards women. I bet you've all seen it. There are right creeps for whom doing it all the time is a way of life but nice men behave in sexually inappropriate ways on occasions too. I don't know if it's more or less depressing that a lot of men don't even regard what they're doing as not on. It's nice on the one hand that there's often no malice in it but on the other hand it's bad it's so ingrained as ok, they can't even see it.

There is no law that I know of that says metoo means women are only allowed speak up about the worst experiences. Whenever the metoo topic comes up among women I know, its the low grade stuff, thankfully, we share about. But you know, low grade can, as with a friend of mine, result in her silently leaving her job because she is so uncomfortable with the behaviour around her. When you're all so worried about men losing their jobs due to accusations, just spare a quick thought for the many women who have left jobs due to the bosses wandering hands or leery ways. My own boss who actually otherwise is a nice family man once told me at a Christmas party that ignoring the boss was not the way to get ahead. Yeah I was avoiding him because he was drunk and messy. A 'nothing' incident among hundreds of 'nothing' incidents. We didn't speak openly about these situations before but now instead of hiding a situation like a guilty secret, women feel more empowered to speak up. (In a way it's akin to the way the whole Peter Casey business seems to have given people permission to express their feelings about travellers.) If men are a bit ? at the moment, could ye not take it on the chin for a small while until a lot of this is cleansed, we've had to take it on the chin for years.

o1s1n · 06-12-2018 11:27am

Mrsmum wrote: »

If men are a bit ? at the moment, could ye not take it on the chin for a small while until a lot of this is cleansed, we've had to take it on the chin for years.

No, men are not one homogeneous group. I'm not 'taking one for the team' to make you feel better.

If I see someone acting inappropriately or someone in trouble (both male or female) and I'm in a position to do something, I will.

I am not, however, going to laden myself with the 'guilt' of my gender. I agree that people should not have to face abuse because of the gender they are born to, that works both ways.

Mrsmum · 06-12-2018 11:34am

o1s1n wrote: »

If I see someone acting inappropriately or someone in trouble (both male or female) and I'm in a position to do something, I will. /QUOTE]

Excellent. Hope others do the same and it will be stamped out in no time.

B0jangles · 06-12-2018 11:36am

professore wrote: »

I definitely believe sexual harassment exists and is widespread, although far far less than 10 years ago. However this isnt the same thing as saying men can't be falsely accused. And the bar now is so low in the US at least, pretty much any interaction with a woman can be deemed sexual harassment. Like the guy in the pic.

Doesn't surprise me at all. Some women really believe that every interaction any man has with them is sexual.

Let's put it this way : the numbers of actual sexual harassing men and the numbers of paranoid accusing women - on a scale from calling a man creepy they don't like, spreading untrue rumours about them or full blown false accusations - are about the same.

Since both have multiple victims, pretty much everyone of either gender will have at least one story about meeting at least one. This doesn't mean that ALL men or women are like this.

It astonishes me how people of both genders deny this about their own gender, or lots of men deny it about the opposite gender.

Do you have any evidence to back these assertions up or are they just more things you've decided must be true because you like the sound of them in your head?

AudreyHepburn · 06-12-2018 1:09pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

A lot of calling out the #metoo is coming from folk nervous and wanting to go back to a time were women kept quiet unless they were really really raped. It's sad. It you're not acting like a scumbag you'll be fine. Yes there are exceptions, but that's true of anything

Rubbish. The calling out of metoo is about the fact that it is determined to deny men due process after an accusation has been made and wants to portray all men as sexual aggressors.

This may come as a shock to you but not every accusation is true. Women can and do lie. We can and do make mistakes. To deny this is at best woefully naive.

We can’t just take every accusation at face value, it’s a dangerous precedent to set.

The other major problem is the unwillingness within the metoo campaign to accept that there are lines and degrees when it comes to sexual interaction just as there are degrees of murder.

Like it or not a pinch on the bum or a hand on your arm is not the same as rape or serious sexual assault and to try and pretend it is is an insult to real victims.

meeeeh · 06-12-2018 1:39pm

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Like it or not a pinch on the bum or a hand on your arm is not the same as rape or serious sexual assault and to try and pretend it is is an insult to real victims.

Who claims they are the same?

And stop with the 'real victims' if people cared about 'real' victims there wouldn't be so many of them.

professore · 06-12-2018 1:56pm

B0jangles wrote: »

Do you have any evidence to back these assertions up or are they just more things you've decided must be true because you like the sound of them in your head?

There must be less than 10 years ago as otherwise all #metoo has achieved is to alienate men from women and vice versa.

Ask any man if he has any crazy girlfriend / woman / sister story and he would tell you if he's not afraid of being labelled a misogynist. Hell ask any honest woman and she'll tell you of crazy friends she had in the past too. As would any man about other men. It's human nature - some of us are nutcases.

Zorya · 06-12-2018 2:24pm

meeeeh wrote: »

Who claims they are the same?
.

#MeToo does. That's the whole problem. The conflation of harrassment and assault.

There should be two different movements. One against actual violence. The other against nasty ignorant behaviour. Because...they are different things.

The Me Too movement (or #MeToo movement), with many local and international alternative names, is a movement against sexual harassment and sexual assault

~ Wikipedia

Sexual Harrassment as per Wikipedia ~

Sexual harassment is bullying or coercion of a sexual nature and the unwelcome or inappropriate promise of rewards in exchange for sexual favors. Sexual harassment includes a range of actions from mild transgressions to sexual abuse or assault.

Sexual Assault as per Wikipedia ~

Sexual assault is an act in which a person intentionally sexually touches another person without that person's consent, or coerces or physically forces a person to engage in a sexual act against their will. It is a form of sexual violence which includes rape (forced vaginal, anal or oral penetration or drug facilitated sexual assault), groping, child sexual abuse or the torture of the person in a sexual manner.

Grayson · 06-12-2018 2:35pm

professore wrote: »

I definitely believe sexual harassment exists and is widespread, although far far less than 10 years ago. However this isnt the same thing as saying men can't be falsely accused. And the bar now is so low in the US at least, pretty much any interaction with a woman can be deemed sexual harassment. Like the guy in the pic.

Doesn't surprise me at all. Some women really believe that every interaction any man has with them is sexual.

Let's put it this way : the numbers of actual sexual harassing men and the numbers of paranoid accusing women - on a scale from calling a man creepy they don't like, spreading untrue rumours about them or full blown false accusations - are about the same.

Since both have multiple victims, pretty much everyone of either gender will have at least one story about meeting at least one. This doesn't mean that ALL men or women are like this.

It astonishes me how people of both genders deny this about their own gender, or lots of men deny it about the opposite gender.

I just read this today. It's about how people underestimate who widespread sexual harassment is

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/06/men-underestimate-level-of-sexual-harassment-against-women-survey

Grayson · 06-12-2018 2:37pm

professore wrote: »

There must be less than 10 years ago as otherwise all #metoo has achieved is to alienate men from women and vice versa.

Ask any man if he has any crazy girlfriend / woman / sister story and he would tell you if he's not afraid of being labelled a misogynist. Hell ask any honest woman and she'll tell you of crazy friends she had in the past too. As would any man about other men. It's human nature - some of us are nutcases.

So what you're saying is that women shouldn't speak publicly about when they were sexually assaulted or harassed. It's all better if no-one says a word?

py2006 · 06-12-2018 3:17pm

Mrsmum wrote: »

Makes as much sense as your statement.

What statement?

Mrsmum wrote: »

The vast majority of men do not rape or sexually assault obviously but a sizeable proportion behave in sexually offensive ways towards women. I bet you've all seen it. There are right creeps for whom doing it all the time is a way of life but nice men behave in sexually inappropriate ways on occasions too.

I've seen enough women behave in this manner too.

Reviews and Books Galore · 06-12-2018 3:22pm

Grayson wrote: »

So what you're saying is that women shouldn't speak publicly about when they were sexually assaulted or harassed. It's all better if no-one says a word?

That's kind of grasping there, Grayson.

professore · 06-12-2018 3:33pm

Grayson wrote: »

So what you're saying is that women shouldn't speak publicly about when they were sexually assaulted or harassed. It's all better if no-one says a word?

B0jangles · 06-12-2018 3:42pm

professore wrote: »

There must be less than 10 years ago as otherwise all #metoo has achieved is to alienate men from women and vice versa.

Ask any man if he has any crazy girlfriend / woman / sister story and he would tell you if he's not afraid of being labelled a misogynist. Hell ask any honest woman and she'll tell you of crazy friends she had in the past too. As would any man about other men. It's human nature - some of us are nutcases.

So that's a no then.

professore · 06-12-2018 3:47pm

B0jangles wrote: »

So that's a no then.

Where's your evidence of rampant sexual harassment against women in Ireland in 2018?

I actually think there is a lot of it, but getting actual evidence isn't so easy. Especially if you discard non independent surveys.

Not sure what your game is, I have never disputed that there is lots of sexual harassment against women, yet you take a condescending tone with me.

Also never once acknowledged that there are evil women out there, and quite a few of them.

B0jangles · 06-12-2018 3:56pm

professore wrote: »

Where's your evidence of rampant sexual harassment against women in Ireland in 2018?

I actually think there is a lot of it, but getting actual evidence isn't so easy. Especially if you discard non independent surveys.

Not sure what your game is, I have never disputed that there is lots of sexual harassment against women, yet you take a condescending tone with me.

Also never once acknowledged that there are evil women out there, and quite a few of them.

https://www.thejournal.ie/rape-stats-rise-ireland-3929262-Mar2018/

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/majorityof-studentsexperience-sexual-harassment-860425.html

https://www.rte.ie/news/investigations-unit/2018/0721/979746-sexual-assaults-increased-by-almost-30-in-some-regions/

That's after about 30 seconds of googling.
My problem is that you have an ongoing tendency to completely invent situations and statistics and then argue as though your made-up evidence is of any value whatsoever.

meeeeh · 06-12-2018 4:07pm

Zorya wrote: »

#MeToo does. That's the whole problem. The conflation of harrassment and assault.

There should be two different movements. One against actual violence. The other against nasty ignorant behaviour. Because...they are different things.

Ah stop with the nonsense.

That like saying UNICEF shouldn't be a charity for all children because kids who are just growing up in poverty are suffering less than those that are also living in wartorn countries.

Grayson · 06-12-2018 4:10pm

professore wrote: »

Not really. The point of metoo is to raise awareness. It's to show that harassment is commonplace. It's literally women saying that's happened to "me too".

You're saying that it's causing men and women to turn against each other. So are you saying women shouldn't speak out and share their experiences? Or what. Do you think they should stop? Keep going? Keep it to themselves? what do you think they should do.

The thing is, as the link I shared shows, people aren't aware of the extent that this happens. So something does need to be done.

leggo · 06-12-2018 4:48pm

Again, as a man and someone looking at this relatively objectively because sexual harassment doesn't infringe on my day-to-day life, it's quite clear what's happening. Women are saying "Men do this"*, some sensitive men are taking that as an accusation and saying "Excuse me!" as if they're being accused themselves**, there are loads of people getting WAY too defensive and trying to discredit and shut the whole thing down like a politician pre-empting a scandal.

But it's also clearly working. I think anyone with any kind of grasp of what's going on in the world will think twice about how they deal with situations before jumping to getting sexually suggestive, which was kinda the whole point. There isn't a mass upsurge of men getting put behind bars falsely so the rule of law is intact, in fact there hasn't been one change to the law since this began and if anything it still could be seen as oppressive. Men are complaining even here about being scared to talk to women, which I find funny because it's like when casual racism started to get clamped down on and people of a different generation used to complain that "You can't say anything anymore!" No, just don't be racist/creepy and you're fine. If you don't know how to do that, well here's a learning opportunity and do the homework yourself or people will judge you, simple. People are resistant and reacting to change because they're uncomfortable confronting the fact that it's them that need to change.

Like you can criticise certain elements of the movement if you get down to the nitty-gritty, there are definitely people who've used it for their own gain, but these are things you can also say about any movement that's ever happened in the history of movements. In terms of goal vs impact, though, it's been about as successful as it could be.

*which is an insensitive, if more convenient, way of putting it to be fair and doesn't pass the "Is this offensive if you put the word 'black people' in here?" test.

**which is ridiculous to anyone with any sense of nuance as it's clear that the distinction is, "This happens on a wide enough scale that it's a gender issue but obviously I'm not saying every single man ever does this."

professore · 06-12-2018 4:49pm

B0jangles wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/rape-stats-rise-ireland-3929262-Mar2018/

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/majorityof-studentsexperience-sexual-harassment-860425.html

https://www.rte.ie/news/investigations-unit/2018/0721/979746-sexual-assaults-increased-by-almost-30-in-some-regions/

That's after about 30 seconds of googling.
My problem is that you have an ongoing tendency to completely invent situations and statistics and then argue as though your made-up evidence is of any value whatsoever.

Many supposed scientific surveys in social sciences are based on inventing a viewpoint and then manufacturing evidence to support it.

I never claimed to have stats on what I was saying. As I said there have been no surveys about women's actual behaviour in the workplace - anything I can find online all start out from the standpoint of how they are horribly oppressed and how to foster a better working environment for them.

A study on actual behaviour patterns without a preconceived agenda - i.e. an ACTUAL scientific study - would be very interesting.

A lot of the stuff is utter rubbish, for example : https://www.redventures.com/blog/2015/11/18/5-major-differences-between-men-and-women-at-work/

Men tend to view the world through a lens of hierarchy, with respect and value placed on authority and following orders. Men are more comfortable operating in well-defined territories where there’s clarity about which voices hold how much authority. A structure where the goal is “get more territory.”

Meanwhile, women learned not to view the world in hierarchies, but instead in a series of concentric flat circles based on relationships and a common understanding of a shared goal. Within those flat structures, women find themselves attempting to create a level playing field ensuring everyone is treated fairly, everyone has a seat at the table and everyone’s voices are heard — regardless of position, experience and level of authority.

This is just utter sh1te. Women and men are individuals, and I would never associate giving everyone a fair voice as a female characteristic. In my experience women are just as likely as men to step over each other for promotion.

Getting to your links, the first source refers to rape stats. Rape is not sexual harassment.

From your second source it seems sexual harassment is, while not quite as big a problem, is a significant problem for male students as it is for females.

Sexual harassment: In a survey of 632 students, 54% of first-year women students report experiencing sexual hostility or crude gender harassment at some point since starting college, rising to 64% among second-year women students, and 70% in third- or subsequent year. The comparable figures for men are: 25%, 37%, and 40%;

Outlaw Pete · 06-12-2018 5:05pm

leggo wrote: »

Again, as a man and someone looking at this relatively objectively because sexual harassment doesn't infringe on my day-to-day life, it's quite clear what's happening.

Just because you have an objective doesn't mean you are objective.

End of #metoo

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