End of #metoo

Zorya

py2006 wrote: »

Oh my god, that is scary.

If I overheard that I would be tempted (but prob wouldn't) to say that I'd witnessed their conversation if an allegation was made.

Yeah, I could have said something but I have a general policy when out and about not to interrupt crazy.

Reviews and Books Galore

Zorya wrote: »

Yeah, I could have said something but I have a general policy when out and about not to interrupt crazy.

Sounded like revenge to be honest. I imagine the girl felt slighted and the friend is a bit of an enabler. It happens.

Young girls can be misandrist, but they do grow out if it and very few actually do anything negative.

Edit: The case of James Dashner is interesting . I feel like, hopefully, the publisher wanted to drop him anyway.

leggo

Hysteria is right. This thread has become people inventing scenarios from various corners of the world then saying “aren’t women just terrible??” because of the thing they secondhand heard/imagined.

Has one person who’s posted on here actually had a false accusation levelled against them (and seen their life ‘destroyed’ as a result) or suffered one tiny bit of inconvenience outside of their own anxiety? Like don’t reply to this post with a story you heard, or a news article, I’m asking if this happened to YOU. Because I know plenty of women who’ve firsthand experience of harassment/assault of some kind (the majority likely, they all have stories, plural), but I can’t as a bloke honestly say I know many men who’ve had their lives destroyed by false accusations. I can think of one lad I knew in school who got questioned as a teen and it got dropped. That would’ve been early 00’s and it doesn’t affect him one bit today, that’s it.

Augme

theguzman wrote: »

truth was the same guy would have gladly done this 3-4 years ago but as he said you can trust absolutely no woman today

Lol, sounds exactly like the kinda of guy any woman should not be left alone with.

Zorya

leggo wrote: »

Hysteria is right. This thread has become people inventing scenarios from various corners of the world then saying “aren’t women just terrible??” because of the thing they secondhand heard/imagined.

Has one person who’s posted on here actually had a false accusation levelled against them (and seen their life ‘destroyed’ as a result) or suffered one tiny bit of inconvenience outside of their own anxiety? Like don’t reply to this post with a story you heard, or a news article, I’m asking if this happened to YOU. Because I know plenty of women who’ve firsthand experience of harassment/assault of some kind (the majority likely, they all have stories, plural), but I can’t as a bloke honestly say I know many men who’ve had their lives destroyed by false accusations. I can think of one lad I knew in school who got questioned as a teen and it got dropped. That would’ve been early 00’s and it doesn’t affect him one bit today, that’s it.

If it's a first-hand overhearing its neither (er, well) second-hand nor can you imply something is invented simply because you were not there.

There have been plenty of cases of false accusation. You know this, of course. Your question is of the nature of how many murdered people do you know, or have many people do you know who have murdered someone - the answer is not relevant because in spite of absence or paucity of personal experience one knows murder happens.

But the false accusation issue is not the main point. Well, not my main point anyway. My point is that people (male or female) whining about rapey misadventures and regretted sexcapades under a fashionable #metoo delusion are utterly denigrating the experiences of people (male or female) who are actually sexually assaulted and violated.

They are different things and should never have become entangled.

Yes, plenty of women get annoying sexual attention, and if they could react promptly and strongly to such attention they can generally nip it in the bud. Also a personal rule should be to never use sexuality to advance one's position in any way and then cry wolf.

The difference between unwanted sexual harrassment or annoyance and violent sexual attack is of the order of magnitudes - they are simply not comparable. I know this, having experienced both. This is what makes #metoo a suspect, if not hysterical, social movement, in my opinion.

leggo

I said don’t reply to my post unless the thing everyone is hysterical about happened to you. So far, zero takers in the first few hours. I expect some newly registered users and some dodgy-sounding stories overnight.

James Brown

And I thought #metoo was women saying they no longer wanted to be silenced in a male dominated often sexist as a norm world. No longer told 'they were asking for it' by going out in 'asking for it clothes' or frilly knickers and getting drunk knowing there was a penis near by. The bitches :rolleyes:

meeeeh

Zorya wrote: »

Yes, plenty of women get annoying sexual attention, and if they could react promptly and strongly to such attention they can generally nip it in the bud. Also a personal rule should be to never use sexuality to advance one's position in any way and then cry wolf.

The difference between unwanted sexual harrassment or annoyance and violent sexual attack is of the order of magnitudes - they are simply not comparable. I know this, having experienced both. This is what makes #metoo a suspect, if not hysterical, social movement, in my opinion.

First time I was properly inappropriately touched was when I was 13. A man sitting behind me started touching me, grabbing my breasts and kissing my neck. It went on for a while and I was to embarrassed to scream or draw attention to it. I had an umbrella and eventually managed to hit his hand hard enough to hear sharp intake of breath and then he eventually left. I realise something like that is not as horrific as violent sexual attack but no child or adult should have to put up with treatment like that. 27 years later I still remember sour cigarette smell of his breath. It was not the only harrasment or the worst I experienced but do not diminish my experience because I was afraid to make fuss. Dismissive attitude like yours makes victims feel embarrassed because apparently what is happening to them isn't really that bad. And if they mention it later it's just dissmised as bit of hysteria from those who were not brave enough to shout stop. Screw that, just because I had no bruises it doesn't mean that part of my childhood didn't end that day.

As for the article posted #metoo is far from perfect and I disagree with witch hunt tendencies some have but the article posted made me laugh. So the men are afraid to mentor and hire women for higher positions (where women are underrepresented), they are not worried about being accused of sexual harrasment claims from the support staff who are majority female. (Breakdown in the article). I think some are just threatened by competent colleagues and are using me too as an excuse to keep possible competition at arms length.

Ozymandius2011

Tarana Burke, who founded the #MeToo movement, has expressed concern at the direction it has taken in recent months.

....."We have moved so far away from the origins of this movement that started a decade ago, or even the intentions of the hashtag that started just a year ago, that sometimes, the Me Too movement that I hear some people talk about is unrecognizable to me," Burke said. "But be clear: This is a movement about the one-in-four girls and the one-in-six boys who are sexually assaulted every year and carry those wounds into adulthood."...

emptyhouse2222

Ozymandius2011 wrote: »

Tarana Burke, who founded the #MeToo movement, has expressed concern at the direction it has taken in recent months.

Some body post a pic of tirana burke

leggo

leggo wrote: »

I said don’t reply to my post unless the thing everyone is hysterical about happened to you. So far, zero takers in the first few hours. I expect some newly registered users and some dodgy-sounding stories overnight.

An article was posted about men taking proactive action to avoid being accused by some nutter. We then had some stories or similar from posters.

You asking that only people who have been accused post, is not only moronic, it's missing the entire point of the conversation, since it's specifically about avoiding being accused.

Outlaw Pete

leggo wrote: »

I said don’t reply to my post unless the thing everyone is hysterical about happened to you. So far, zero takers in the first few hours. I expect some newly registered users and some dodgy-sounding stories overnight.

So let me get this straight: you're expecting men who are long time regulars on Boards to share times in the lives that they've been falsely accused of sexually assaulting women? A crime which is seen as one of (if not) the most abhorrent crimes in our society and one which is increasingly being seen as the accused being 'Guilty until proven innocent' than it's traditional converse and which regularly sees the usual suspects out in force telling us that 'Not Guilty =/= Innocent'.

Yeah, a real head scratcher why you've had zero takers so far on your request.

Quite frankly I think what is going on today is just going to lead to even more false allegations being made going forward, and there is already some good recent evidence that it's for sure in the post, as even children are making false allegations and at younger and younger ages too and it's hardly surprising with some attitudes about that are regularly trivializing them, suggesting they won't have any longstanding effects on blokes.

But anyway, I think you'll have to make do with some articles on men who for sure have had their lives destroyed by false allegations, although I doubt that will change your mind, horses and water come to mind.

https://www.inquisitr.com/5110462/group-of-mean-girls-falsely-accuse-boy-of-sexual-assault-because-they-dont-like-him-school-does-nothing/
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5574923/Teacher-falsely-accused-groping-students-adopted-child-removed.html
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/8828589/Teachers-lives-ruined-by-false-allegations-warns-minister.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIG7nXR4LZQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAS8MSlDzxo

Then there's of course the sad case of the Jay Cheshire and the effect a false allegation had on him (and his family):

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/young-womans-agony-over-mum-10512152

#MeToo has largely been a load of baloney ever since Weinstein first appeared in it's crosshairs. Before that, from what I have seen, it seemed to have been harmless enough, something that was low level and was really more about women sharing experiences of harassment than the self serving vigilantism which it is today and largely for political end.

About 1% of the anger that was directed at those who had apparently enabled Weinstein and facilitated him went where it should have, and that was at the women who walked into the Weinstein Company boardroom, armed to the teeth with evidence that he was abusing his position, saying they had enough and were taking it further, but yet changed their mind when he, or his brother, got their cheque books out and that for me shows us that this has always been more about trying to take down the ever elusive patriarchy than anything else, otherwise the women who turned a blind eye to Weinsteins behaviour wouldn't have all got a free pass.

One of the corner stones of justice in a healthy society, and particularly with regards to crimes of a sexual nature, is due process and the quicker we get back to that the better as allegations being made on social media has done no good whatsoever and the toll for it having done so has for the most been ignored.

https://www.spiked-online.com/2018/08/03/the-metoo-suicides/

Enough.

Zorya

meeeeh wrote: »

Dismissive attitude like yours makes victims feel embarrassed because apparently what is happening to them isn't really that bad. And if they mention it later it's just dissmised as bit of hysteria from those who were not brave enough to shout stop. Screw that, just because I had no bruises it doesn't mean that part of my childhood didn't end that day.

.

I can't remember exactly my age but I was young because my sternum was the perfect height for the bus driver to keep grinding his erection into it as he held me close at the Brownies disco, and every time I made good my escape he followed and the troop leader, a lady, insisted I dance with him some more.

Horrible **** happens. It is not the same as being set upon and raped. It's the conflating of all sexual deviancy that I find disturbing

leggo

I didn’t say don’t reply in the topic, you can chat away amongst yourselves if you want. Just please don’t talk to me because I don’t care about your articles and YouTube videos about this. I find this passionate anti-#MeToo sentiment from lads totally creepy.

Still no takers anyway. Nobody has firsthand experience of the thing they’re worried about but still wants to act like it’s a thing. Okay.

Fann Linn

leggo wrote: »

I didn’t say don’t reply in the topic, you can chat away amongst yourselves if you want. Just please don’t talk to me because I don’t care about your articles and YouTube videos about this. I find this passionate anti-#MeToo sentiment from lads totally creepy.

Still no takers anyway. Nobody has firsthand experience of the thing they’re worried about but still wants to act like it’s a thing. Okay.

So unless you've been raped you can't talk about rape. You better have a word with Noeline Blackwell of the Rape Crisis Centre so.

Dalomanakora

I was raped as a teenager. First serious boyfriend, bit older than me, I was a virgin, didn't want it, said no, and well, you can guess what happened. When I finally told our friends because I needed support, they turned on me. I was a lying whore, he didn't do it, I wanted to have sex with him.

And I fcuking hate what the metoo movement has become. At first, when it was women bravely sharing their harrowing experiences on social media, I applauded it. We should not be silenced and we should be able to talk about what happened to us.


I didn't post anything though. I knew what'd happen. I knew it'd turn into a certain minority of women posting about the man who tried to chat them up, embellishing the story. I saw more than one friend post their story when I'd been on that night out with them and their version was false.



Unfortunately what started as a wonderful, empowering movement, has become a misandrist witch hunt.

Zorya

Dalomanakora wrote: »

I was raped as a teenager. First serious boyfriend, bit older than me, I was a virgin, didn't want it, said no, and well, you can guess what happened. When I finally told our friends because I needed support, they turned on me. I was a lying whore, he didn't do it, I wanted to have sex with him.

And I fcuking hate what the metoo movement has become. At first, when it was women bravely sharing their harrowing experiences on social media, I applauded it. We should not be silenced and we should be able to talk about what happened to us.


I didn't post anything though. I knew what'd happen. I knew it'd turn into a certain minority of women posting about the man who tried to chat them up, embellishing the story. I saw more than one friend post their story when I'd been on that night out with them and their version was false.



Unfortunately what started as a wonderful, empowering movement, has become a misandrist witch hunt.

Thank you for saying this, D.

This is what I feel too.

Dalomanakora

Zorya wrote: »

Thank you for saying this, D.

This is what I feel too.

Thank you


I just really hate this idea that men are predators and women are victims. It's happened to me and you can fcuk right off if you want to call me a victim. I'm not a victim, I'm strong, I'm a survivor and I made damn sure I recovered mentally.

I feel for women who haven't recovered. Some will never recover. And speaking out can help massively. By telling my family, I finally realised I needed help and I got it. And I know some women will struggle. I wouldn't judge a woman for struggling after an assault like being groped against her will. It's not the same as rape, but it's still traumatic for some women and I understand that.


But not all men are like this. There are so so many good, kind, decent men in the world who respect and love women. There are lots of men who read signals wrong and went in for a kiss the woman didn't want - and in my experience, they've all apologised when they realised it wasn't wanted.



Men aren't the enemy. Rapists are. And thankfully, the vast majority of men are NOT rapists.

Zorya

Dalomanakora wrote: »

Thank you


I just really hate this idea that men are predators and women are victims. It's happened to me and you can fcuk right off if you want to call me a victim. I'm not a victim, I'm strong, I'm a survivor and I made damn sure I recovered mentally.

I feel for women who haven't recovered. Some will never recover. And speaking out can help massively. By telling my family, I finally realised I needed help and I got it. And I know some women will struggle. I wouldn't judge a woman for struggling after an assault like being groped against her will. It's not the same as rape, but it's still traumatic for some women and I understand that.


But not all men are like this. There are so so many good, kind, decent men in the world who respect and love women. There are lots of men who read signals wrong and went in for a kiss the woman didn't want - and in my experience, they've all apologised when they realised it wasn't wanted.



Men aren't the enemy. Rapists are. And thankfully, the vast majority of men are NOT rapists.

+100 D

I have had assault experiences that would make your blood run cold and they deeply traumatised me, but I also feel like a victor for dealing with it. Yes, some people are more traumatised by less for various reasons. And probably with good reason in many cases. I do feel sorry for that.

But to also have inappropriate leg rubbing or leering or smutty talk or innuendo compared to actual life-threatening assault where you fear death at any moment makes me so cross. And like you I never felt the need to blame ''men'' in general. It was that particular human being at that particular time that was wholly to blame. And my good brothers, father, husband, sons, male friends would have cheerfully killed for me if they had been there any of those times.

Metoo is a horribly divisive movement.

meeeeh

Zorya wrote: »

But to also have inappropriate leg rubbing or leering or smutty talk or innuendo compared to actual life-threatening assault where you fear death at any moment makes me so cross. And like you I never felt the need to blame ''men'' in general. It was that particular human being at that particular time that was wholly to blame. And my good brothers, father, husband, sons, male friends would have cheerfully killed for me if they had been there any of those times.

Metoo is a horribly divisive movement.

Stop with the life threatening nonsense. Wast majority of rape victims are not killed, the rape can be violent, scary but in vast majority of cases it is not life threatening. There is a huge spectre of sexual assault between groping someone and raping and killing someone. Many women are perfectly able to deal with all kinds of stuff (me included) but they shouldn't have to.

And by the way I have no idea who are the hordes who blame all men. Some women being overly hysterical on twitter and some men here are overly hysterical about being falsely accused of rape.

Dalomanakora

meeeeh wrote: »

Stop with the life threatening nonsense. Wast majority of rape victims are not killed, the rape can be violent, scary but in vast majority of cases it is not life threatening.

Yes, god forbid a woman DARE feel in fear of her life when a man is in the middle of doing the most violating, disgusting act that can happen to a woman, against her will. How dare she believe a man as evil as that could possibly stretch to further evil acts!



The poster's sentiments were the bloody same as yours, she just shared her own experience also and you're telling her she's not right to feel the way she did?

meeeeh

Dalomanakora wrote: »

Yes, god forbid a woman DARE feel in fear of her life when a man is in the middle of doing the most violating, disgusting act that can happen to a woman, against her will. How dare she believe a man as evil as that could possibly stretch to further evil acts!



The poster's sentiments were the bloody same as yours, she just shared her own experience also and you're telling her she's not right to feel the way she did?

No I'm saying that people can be scared and traumatised even when objectivity wast majority of cases don't end in victims death. And I don't think rape where someone was drugged or just pinned down or something similar should be dismissed as not being as bad. Someone in abusive relationship can be suffering hugely and just to dismiss it as not being life threatening is ridiculous.

I wasn't commenting experience but on insinuation that there is either rape under threat of life or a bit of groping and very little else.

B0jangles

Yeah, there's always going to be someone who had an experience even worse than the one you* experienced, so dismissing other people's trauma as trivial because yours was worse seems both pointless and mean-spirited to me.

*non-specific 'you'

leggo

See the gaping flaw in the article posted earlier in the week, and the prevailing sentiment of some here, is the arrogant notion that *their* trauma is somehow the only relevant one and that anyone else’s is lesser, therefore if she chooses not to want to speak about it, nobody should. No, that’s just her own experience, and by that token people can come out and say to her “Well you only got raped once, I was a prisoner of war and used to get gang raped every day so you can’t talk to me about trauma!” It’s not a reasonable attitude to have by any metric.

The thing is nobody is *trying* to compare traumas. That’s not what’s happening here. Nobody is saying “my experience is the worst, look at me.” Yes violent rape is worse than casual groping in a nightclub, that doesn’t mean that casual groping is okay and shouldn’t be spoken about because it ‘lessens’ the impact of rape. That’s such a rudimentary understanding of the issue. It’d be like someone moaning about workplace bullying and me saying “Well at least you weren’t murdered!!” As harrowing as it is to read through victims’ experiences, being a victim of something doesn’t make you an expert in how to fix that thing. If I get slapped by a scumbag in the street, they don’t slap the knowledge of how to rehabilitate under-educated youths into fully functional members of society into me like.

The problem with that attitude is that it, if you play through her wishes and it prevails, it actually achieves the end she’s trying to avoid: people being afraid of coming out and speaking because they feel what they say is insignificant. It also gives the creepy lads who claim to care about ‘the integrity of the law’ (you don’t mate, literally not one person on this planet believes that you do) ammo as they try minimise the issue when it’s plain as day to see their actual bugbear with it is because they’re worried about a few incidents that people in their past might speak out about. They want to discredit the movement so they can get away unscathed if anything comes out about them, so the people they’re afraid of can’t speak up. It’s ****ing obvious as anything, even on boards. Come at me all you like with a case from the back arse of Australia two years ago that you think validates your stance, you’re just outing yourself on one of the biggest websites in Ireland as a rapey prick.

Rape is bad. Sexual assault/groping is bad. Being creepy is bad. One being worse doesn’t make the other okay. If people (not just men) are scared, good. It’s good to be scared of breaking the law. Sometimes I get really wound up about what I perceive as an injustice in the moment and want to punch someone perpetrating it, but I’m scared of going to prison and ruining my life, so I don’t and society is better off for it (as am I). But, as with any law, if you’ve no plans of breaking it or are sure you’ve never broken it before, you’ve nothing to be afraid of.

Zorya

meeeeh wrote: »

No I'm saying that people can be scared and traumatised even when objectivity wast majority of cases don't end in victims death. And I don't think rape where someone was drugged or just pinned down or something similar should be dismissed as not being as bad. Someone in abusive relationship can be suffering hugely and just to dismiss it as not being life threatening is ridiculous.

I wasn't commenting experience but on insinuation that there is either rape under threat of life or a bit of groping and very little else.

But you know that is not what I am saying. However metoo conflates ALL sexual assault and wrongly so. Perhaps you could read the Ann Sterzinger piece I posted a while back, she expresses it better.

And you did say '' stop with the life threatening nonsense'' - that is what you said. You were allowed say your experience, but you pooh-poohed anothers. In one case in a remote place in rural Turkey I was suddenly jumped and pushed to the ground by a group of 4 middle aged drunk and aggressive men, who proceeded to rip off my clothes, all lying on top of me in a frenzy, suffocating me, and I absolutely feared I would die. Only for the intervention of a very old man who happened to pass by, and who called them to their senses, I believe I was a goner. So I am not going to reply to you anymore, because you contemptuously dismiss other peoples perspectives eg ''stop with the life threatening nonsense''.

Zorya

B0jangles wrote: »

Yeah, there's always going to be someone who had an experience even worse than the one you* experienced, so dismissing other people's trauma as trivial because yours was worse seems both pointless and mean-spirited to me.

*non-specific 'you'

No, just fcuking no. I am tired of this. Some lech in the office grabbing your ass or making a comment about your tits IS NOT THE SAME AS RAPE. It is not even in the same fcuking ball park.

I'm out of here, Sick and tired of this metoo ****. Truly.

B0jangles

Zorya wrote: »

No, just fcuking no. I am tired of this. Some lech in the office grabbing your ass or making a comment about your tits IS NOT THE SAME AS RAPE. It is not even in the same fcuking ball park.

I'm out of here, Sick and tired of this metoo ****. Truly.

You're the only one who is pretending that #metoo is demanding that having your ass grabbed and rape should be treated as being equally bad.
Saying they are both bad is not saying they are the same - how is that so hard to grasp?

like, having your pocket-picked is bad, being violently mugged is also bad - does criminalizing pocket-picking trivialize violent muggings?

Zorya

B0jangles wrote: »

You're the only one who is pretending that having your ass grabbed and rape are the same thing.


Saying they are both bad is not saying they are the same - how is that so hard to grasp?

Right so saying an infant drinking a cup of coffee is bad is the same as saying an infant being injected with heroin is bad. They are both bad. But they are not in the same ball park at all. Bad is perhaps being stretched to accommodate quantitatively different thinsg here and thereby lessening the impact of its essential meaning.

B0jangles

Zorya wrote: »

Right so saying an infant drinking a cup of coffee is bad is the same as saying an infant being injected with heroin is bad. They are both bad. But they are not in the same ball park at all. Bad is perhaps being stretched to accommodate quantitatively different thinsg here and thereby lessening the impact of its essential meaning.

Why do you feel entitled to decide what the essential meaning is?

How would you feel if a person who had had an even worse experience than you told you to pipe down, you were lucky, you didn't have it so bad, stop complaining?

silverharp

leggo wrote: »

If people (not just men) are scared, good. It’s good to be scared of breaking the law. Sometimes I get really wound up about what I perceive as an injustice in the moment and want to punch someone perpetrating it, but I’m scared of going to prison and ruining my life, so I don’t and society is better off for it (as am I). But, as with any law, if you’ve no plans of breaking it or are sure you’ve never broken it before, you’ve nothing to be afraid of.

I think any men that were breaking the law knew they were breaking the law, but be careful what you wish for. I can see more men adopting the Mike Pence rule, not wanting to work or travel alone with women for work, not wanting to mentor women etc.
I saw a tweet yesterday by a journalist saying that a women he had been friendly to at work told him she was uncomfortable about his interest in her and warned him off, the tweet ended with him saying he was gay. Throw in an extra level of crazy and she would have gone straight to HR and reported him first.