if you were building a commuter bike...

Would anyone know if you could purchase the Rose Pro DX Cross 2000 on the BTW scheme. Looks like a quality commuting/training bike at an affordable price

How about the Ribble steel frame/bike?

Diarmuid wrote: »

How about the Ribble steel frame/bike?

To answer my own question, there;s no way you are getting 35mm tires on the Ribble

doozerie wrote: »

* The Rose Pro DX Cross 2000 - aluminium frame and carbon fork, eyelets for mudguards and rack, Shimano 105 groupset (mostly), Avid BB7 disc brakes, 160mm rotors, €1295 plus delivery, 9.2kg. Decent spec, reasonable price, lighter weight for those looking for that, and as my wife's Rose road bike has worked out well I'd be optimistic about the frameset quality of this one too. I e-mailed them a query about tyre clearance very late one night, and I received a cheerful reply very early the next morning - no problem with 35mm spiked tyres and mudguards apparently, they'd even fit them for me if I wanted. I've had very good experiences shopping with Rose, such excellent customer service is no surprise.

Thought I'd provide an update here in case anyone is looking for the same functionality out of this Rose bike as I am.

This week I asked Rose directly whether their Pro DX Cross frameset can take 45mm mudguards (SKS P45 Chromoplastic, to be precise) along with 35mm studded tyres. Their answer was that it can't. I asked them to clarify whether the issue was mudguard clearance at the chainstays, thinking that I could trim the mudguards a little there if necessary, but their answer was quite vague in that they said I'd have to mount the mudguards myself and they they couldn't do so in the workshop. I'm inclined to think the mudguards could be made to fit, but that's a guess so this question remains something to bear in mind by anyone thinking of buying this bike and planning to fit it with mudguards that provide decent coverage with 35mm tyres - they do sell this bike with mudguards fitted but from the photos it looks like the mudguards they fit give little or no "side" coverage, which might be fine for some but for a commute bike I wouldn't be happy with anything less than conventional mudguards which give some coverage at the sides.

I also had a question about clearance around the rear non-drive side dropout. My child trailer hitch point is a big lump of metal that attaches at that side via the skewer, and it needs a flat surface area at the dropout with a radius of about 17mm or so (so cowled dropout won't work with it, for example). I asked whether the Pro DX Cross frameset has the necessary clearance but their answer was a very stark "you can't use this frameset with a child trailer". I asked them to clarify whether this was due to lack of clearance at the dropout or whether they explicitly advise against using the frameset with any form of trailer. It's the latter, or in their own words this frameset "is a sophisticated light weight frame and not made for using a trailer. It is a bike for sportive use".

I'm a bit surprised by that latter answer, but it is in keeping with Kona's refusal to warranty my snapped (steel) MTB frame because I towed a trailer with it. Maybe I'm simply underestimating the stresses that towing a trailer puts on a bike frame but I suspect that the issue here is really just manufacturers covering their own arses by advising that frames that are supposedly designed to take the pounding of being ridden off-load can't take the stress of towing a trailer. Makes you wonder what framesets out there are "officially" deemed suitable for towing a trailer - funnily enough though my wife's aluminium Kona hybrid shows no signs of any issues arising from towing a laden child trailer almost daily for a few years now. But it is something to bear in mind if buying a frame that you plan to use with a trailer, and of course it is something to consider too if you ever look to warranty a damaged frame that you've used to tow a trailer at any stage.

Oh, and that particular Rose frameset's availability seems to be dropping quite fast. They provide an "availabilities" link on the page of each model of bike built from that frameset - the details refer to the availability of the frameset itself rather than the completed bike so if the page for any of their models shows that the frameset is unavailable in your size then it's not available in that size as any of the other builds either. They've already sold out of my size and at least one other size, so if you are thinking about one of these bikes be sure to keep an eye on its availability while you make your decision.

And on that note, the Planet-X Kaffenback that I linked to above is no longer available either, presumably that's sold out too. So I'm now looking further afield for a disc-equipped bike with drop bars, and the most interesting ones so far, all of them steel framesets, are: Kona Rove - fits the bill but is overpriced as far as I am concerned and also I'm still in a huff with Kona, but I've not ruled it out; Cotic Roadrat - very versatile frameset, comes with (removable) v-brake *and* disc mounts which would make migrating to this frameset easier for me over the longer term, reasonable price for the frameset (I don't like the components on the pre-built models so I'm not convinced of the value of those), but not suitable for drop bars (but a new frameset planned by them for next Spring will take drop bars); Kinesis Decade Tripster - another versatile frameset, quite a bit more expensive than the Cotic though.

@droidus, Thanks for the link, I'll keep an eye out for when that is available. Re the Alfine hub, one thing that has put me off them a bit is that they seem to have a reputation for being draggy - Lumen mentioned it on another thread and I've seen other comments online saying likewise. Have you found that to be a problem?

@lennymc, That's another interesting frame. Their sizing seems weird though, the smallest frame they offer that'll take 700c wheels is a 56cm which would definitely be too big. Bummer!

@WAPAIC, Thanks for the info, and the offer. The Kaffenback was really interesting and seemed great value, my only concern about it was whether it would take 35mm studded tyres and 45mm mudguards and Planet-X couldn't make any guarantees. I'd be very interested to hear how generous, or not, you find its clearance to be when yours arrives.

Lumen wrote: »

I would place these above all other considerations, but particularly a front dynamo light. Modern dynamo lights are the most excellent thing ever.

Do they still dim when go slowly and go out when you stop?

I'm considering a Triban 5 for this role, once they come back into stock. They're cheap enough to lock up in town, take mudguards and a rear rack. What's not to love (apart from the triple)?

rab!dmonkey wrote: »

I'm considering a Triban 5 for this role, once they come back into stock. They're cheap enough to lock up in town, take mudguards and a rear rack. What's not to love (apart from the triple)?

I woudn't lock a Triban 5 in town in fairness. Also does the Triban 5 have eyelets for mudguards as these will be needed for commuting

doozerie wrote: »

* Full length robust mudguards.
* Pannier rack.
* Space on the handlebars for at least one decent light.
* At little carbon as possible.
* Robust wheels.
* Clearance for wide tyres.
* Lockable via my existing locks.
* Dynamo hub(s).
* No V-brakes.
* Hub bearings that are robust but still relatively easy to service when they need replacing.
* Bottom bracket, or bearings, that last quite a while.
* Gearing which is as simple as possible, which means no triple chainset for me.

This comes close to most of those. Weight seems high, but perhaps not given it has alfine, dynamo and rack. Flat bars not great.

Got the Kaffenback on Saturday morning, took one quick spin up to Cruagh Wood this morning and have to say I'm delighted with it. It's not super-quick but it's fast enough, it feels very stable and there's no road buzz (big tyres, steel frame). It seems quite long compared to my plastic bike. Disc brakes on a road bike are great and the Rival groupset seems nice and crisp. I'll get the mudguards and rack on tomorrow or Tuesday and take a picture. Looks like there is lots of clearance which is always the way until you start bolting things on.

Front Shifting Considered Harmful

doozerie wrote: »

Online reviews mention that the Hayes CX Expert have rubbish stopping power for the first while. Online docs from Hayes themselves support this, saying that you need several "big" stops to wear the pads in. I've used the bike only once so far and can confirm that stopping power sucked, it's less than I get with the (okay) Shimano 105 callipers on my current commute bike, and a lot less than I got with the XT v-brakes on my dead commute MTB.

I had this with my Avids. You really need to be brutal with them to wear them in - like cycle with the brakes on for a while. If you're not almost getting thrown over the bars they're not worn in.

doozerie wrote: »

the calliper arms, and therefore the brake pads, are not parallel to the rotors

This sounds plain wrong to me. Setting up mechanical discs with drop bars is a frustrating compromise between rotor rub and lever travel, but everything should be "square".

doozerie wrote: »

I really want to use the mudguard mount at the dropout I'll need a big spacer to position the mudguard stay about 40 or 50mm out from the dropout - bleugh!

Get over it, this is a utility bike. This is my setup.

Joxer_S wrote: »

I'm dreaming of a Surly straggler, with an 11spd Alfine di2 hub and dynamo on the front. Brooks saddle and drop bars. Am I right in thinking that SRAM red are the only hydraulic sti shifters out there?

Shimano do them too (R785), and they're Di2-only, but I don't know whether they're compatible with Di2 Alfine yet or what availability is like.

Alfine and drop bars is awkward to set up in my experience so a Di2 version is relatively appealing (though I find the Alfine too draggy so I'm not going there).

edit: maybe this:

http://www.madison.co.uk/products/cycling/transmission-braking-components/sti-gear-brake-levers/st-r785-di2-hydraulic-sti-for-drop-bar-fully-bled-set-with-callipers-e-tube/

Lumen wrote: »

Get over it, this is a utility bike. This is my setup.

My concern was less over aesthetics than having a sticky-out-ey bit like that on the bike. Sticky-out-ey bits tend to spend every moment trying to be snaggy-on-everything-ey bits usually. Mind you, it's that versus using the higher pannier mount and ending up with a potentially fragile mount on that side, which isn't appealing either. In terms of aesthetics, either option is ugly as sin really.

@kenmc, Bending the stay(s) is not a real option I think. I'll have to look at it again but from memory I discounted it quickly because I'm pretty sure that the plastic end (very same as on Lumen's) doesn't allow either stay to clear the caliper. I could do without the plastic end, but I like having it there to do its job of quick-release if necessary.

As regards the calipers, the chunk of metal that mounts to the frame seems to be square, and where the caliper body itself mounts to that chunk of metal seems square too. To have any adjustability of the angle to the rotor I think that one or other of those mating interfaces needs to allow the mating parts to mount non-square, if you know what I mean. I initially assumed there would be some sort of wedge-shaped washer between the mating interfaces to allow a change of angle, but there doesn't appear to be. The rotor is only a couple of mm off parallel at one "end" of the brake pads, but it's enough to mean that only one "end" of each pad makes contact (until the rotor flexes a little to push flat against the pad faces). Perhaps there is a knack to it that I didn't discover when I tinkered with it but if so it wasn't immediately obvious.

Planet X wrote: »

As regards the disc pad/rotor alignment, just Google "Credit Card Avid BB7 adjustment".

I take it this means you spend loads of money getting someone who knows how to do it, to do it.

doozerie wrote: »

@kenmc, Bending the stay(s) is not a real option I think. I'll have to look at it again but from memory I discounted it quickly because I'm pretty sure that the plastic end (very same as on Lumen's) doesn't allow either stay to clear the caliper. I could do without the plastic end, but I like having it there to do its job of quick-release if necessary.

Plastic end - easy peasy...

Lumen wrote: »

I fail to see how a bent piece of metal is better looking than my glorious anodized chainring bolt extension system.

This explains a lot of your bike choices.

Lumen wrote: »

Ken is right about the BB7 procedure. You have to start with everything slack and the calipers clamped on to the rotor, and then tighten things in the right order.

Try and find some installation instructions for your calipers (online, even).

I tried a version of that procedure at the time, and it certainly helped a bit, but the final bit of cinching the bolts always pulled the caliper off parallel again. I need to throw some more time at it in case I missed something last time but it seemed like the (slightly off) angle of the calipers was not adjustable at all.

Yeah, I must root around for online instructions alright. I did a cursory search before but didn't find anything, even on Hayes's own site, but that was between sweary bouts of wrestling with the bike so my focus was, er, lacking.

Diarmuid wrote: »

I have those same mudguards on my Ribble 525 frame with 25 tires. When it's wet, they make a bit of noise from leaves and stones getting pulled up into the mudguard and rubbing slightly. Anyone else have this? I guess the clearance is just too tight with this combo

I've a 23 up front and a 28 on the back (babyseat, trying to make the ride a bit more comfy for her). Have also run 35mm winters with no change to the mudguard positioning - that's a little tight to be fair.

On "normal" tyres, no isuses on the back, up front the only issue has been if I manage to tuck the flap back up under the mudguard (e.g. wheeling bike down from a kerb). Guess my bike has a lot more clearance than yours would though.

I’m going to give a brief (-ish!) review of the Kona Rove I as I’m currently in the “right” frame of mind to be very honest about it. I bought the 2013 model and I’ve been using it only for my commute for the about the last 3 months amounting to a little under 900km of riding, so basically it has been lightly used and all of that has been on smooth-ish tarmac roads so far - for a bike that is marketed as a “gravel bike”, this amounts to a very easy life to date.

I had problems with the mechanical disk brakes from the outset, I couldn’t orient the pads to be parallel to the rotors. When I bought it they were appallingly setup, but that’s another matter and really one for the thread discussing the merits of buying from an LBS (which is where I got mine) versus online - in short though, the brakes on this brand new bike as it was handed to me were in dire need of attention. It’s my first time using disc brakes so I can’t rule out the possibility that I’ve missed something obvious with their adjustment, but my belief is that either the frame bosses for the disc calipers are slightly misaligned or else the pads themselves are poorly installed or fundamentally rubbish. Either way it’s not good.

The welded bosses on the down tube which acts as guides for the gear cables are located very close to the head tube. As a result the gear cable outers are angled badly as they enter the guides. Mounting the bosses 1cm further away from the head tube would have avoided that. It’s not causing obvious problems as yet but it stresses the gear cables unnecessarily. Anyone that likes smooth lines for any cables would flinch at the sight of them, and might be tempted to relocate them with a hammer.

Kona’s approach to sizing seems to be novel to say the least, or perhaps the LBS were simply lying when they insisted that a medium was “definitely the right size for me”. I’m usually a small in everything, with the very odd exception, but I put my faith in the LBS’s experience of dealing with this brand and its sizing. I now think I just about scrape into the bottom of the size range that the medium (53cm) suits, just. So I’d get by with a medium but it comes with 42cm handlebars, something the LBS neglected to mention, or perhaps even think of. I’m suited to 40cm at most, and arguably 38cm is actually wide enough for me. 42cm bars are silly for me, the fact that these Kona bars are 47cm at the drops (in an earlier post I said they are 44cm at the drops, how wrong I was) makes for an utterly ridiculous setup. I rode the bike away from the shop, on a wave of optimism, but that was a mistake, this bike is not spec’ed for someone of my size and the LBS should have known that. Instead of taking it back to the LBS though I opted to adjust it to my size so I’ve got to live with that decision. I’ve replaced the handlebars with something sane and this has made a big difference but short of replacing the very high headset I can’t lower the bars as much as I’d really like.

I spotted yesterday that the KMC powerlink had broken, one of the plates had simply snapped in two and I’m surprised that the chain itself didn’t break before I spotted it - not sure whether the powerlink’s ability to keep the chain together with only one face plate is a glowing recommendation of its strength, or whether the fact that the other face plate was snapped by a little guy like me is a damning demonstration of its weakness. I also don’t know how long it had been like that. I’ve been planning to swap out the chain and the horrible wide ratio cassette for a better quality chain and a close ratio cassette, and because of that intention I’ve not been looking after the chain properly. I never lubed it, letting it rely on the (rubbish) “lube” that it came coated with. The weather in the last couple of weeks in particular left some surface rust on the chain, and I should have cleaned it and lubed it then but I didn’t. So I didn’t maintain the chain well, but having said that I’ve never experienced a snapped link on any chain this early on in its life so I’m not impressed.

The rear wheel developed a buckle a few weeks back, one of the spokes had come a little loose. It was a spoke to which a wheel reflector was attached - I dislike such reflectors, and it is a reflection (ha!) of the esteem in which I place this bike that I’ve left them on it this far. Taking a spoke key to it has been on my list of things to do since I spotted the buckle, but I reckoned that one loose spoke this early on might indicate that the wheel will need more attention than simply a quick adjustment of that spoke, so I’ve been postponing the job until I have some time to deal with what I expect to find are basically poorly built wheels. This morning one of the other (non-drive side) spokes snapped while on my commute, and appropriately enough it then started to rain heavily so I got soaked as I meandered into work, thinking dark thoughts about Kona - on the plus side, at last I experienced one of the true benefits of disc brakes, the ability to ride a very badly buckled wheel. The hubs are branded “A Class”, a clear example that if you feel the need to openly proclaim your class to all and sundry then you really don’t have any. These wheels appear to be muck, I foresee building my own wheels for it in the near future.

The bike is a tank, in the sense of being extremely heavy rather than any reflection of its robustness. I knew it was heavy when I chose it, its weight is listed in the spec of the bike, but as it is only for commuting I even saw this as a good thing as it should handle the inevitable knocks it’ll take in the shared bike parking where I work. But whenever I retrieve it from my shed each morning I’m slightly surprised each time at exactly how heavy it is, it outweighs my previous MTB by quite a bit. I still don’t consider this a bad thing for my purposes, just something to be aware of if you are thinking of buying one as this aspect of the bike tended to be underplayed in reviews that I read of it.

Last (so far!) but certainly not least, the retail price of this bike is €1,600. To me that is a ridiculous price based purely on its spec on paper. I got a 20% discount on that (for reasons which reflect poorly on Kona), which brought it down to nearly competitive with other brands. My main reason for choosing this bike in the end was because it has clearance for 40mm tyres so it should have no problems handling 35mm spiked tyres with mudguards (though I’ve not tested this combination yet). My experiences to date have demonstrated to me that the bike can’t justify even this reduced price, it is far too expensive given for one the apparently poor quality wheels it comes fitted with.

In short then, this bike is over-priced, weirdly-sized (those handlebars - WTF?), poorly spec’ed, and over-hyped (I’ve seen online reviews rave about it, including suggestions that you could race cyclocross on it - if you have the power to plough this tank of a bike through mud then you’ll almost certainly have exploded the rear wheel within the first 50m of the race). If I were buying again it would not be on my shortlist, I think there is far far better value to be had from other utilitarian CX bike options (e.g. Rose Bikes, Planet X, …) and if you are looking for a bike to race CX on even occasionally then the Kona Rove doesn’t come close to being a good choice. I used to like Kona as a brand but I would hope to never buy another Kona bike again.

@Lumen, How about bar-end shifters as a potentially ugly compromise/stop-gap? I’ve never used them myself so I’ve never formed an opinion on them but they do seem to divide people so they are certainly not for everyone.

Your mention of ti reminds of the On-One titanium CX, which I like the look of. It might be able to take a lever band on the downtube, though their mention of a “uniquely shaped down tube” makes me wonder. Seemingly good tyre clearance, reasonable price, reasonable (road) gearing out of the box, etc. - if that bike had mudguard and rack eyes then I’d want one right now.