Why would you vote SF?

FrancieBrady · 25-04-2019 10:23am

blackwhite wrote: »

They did. But I haven't seen anyone here perpetuating the lie that Labour have always be in favour of EU membership.

Funny how you are immediately trying to deflect form your fellow travelers postings bare-faced falsehoods with some good old-fashioned whataboutery :rolleyes:

The poster has clarified what they meant, that for a few decades now SF's position is clear on the EU.

My point is that parties (like Labour) change their positions. So what?

McMurphy · 25-04-2019 10:38am

derfderf wrote: »

It's on wikipedia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland

They opposed joining the ECC, and opposed every treaty since. Are you saying outside of the treaties they support the project?

To add, the version of the EU they opposed through rejection of the treaties is the exact same version they're now campaigning to keep NI a part of.

Did you read the link?

The United Irishman newspaper opposed the state's entry.[9] Official Sinn Féin also opposed the entry, citing anti-imperialism and calling the EC a "rich man's club"[9][10] Provisional Sinn Féin also opposed the entry, saying it would undermine Irish sovereignty and that the "Common Market Empire would threaten Irish ownership of Irish land".[10]

Official Sinn Fein.

Jesus.

derfderf · 25-04-2019 10:45am

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Did you read the link?

Official Sinn Fein.

Jesus.

Two lines below:
Provisional Sinn Féin also opposed the entry, saying it would undermine Irish sovereignty and that the "Common Market Empire would threaten Irish ownership of Irish land"

blackwhite · 25-04-2019 10:48am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The poster has clarified what they meant, that for a few decades now SF's position is clear on the EU.

My point is that parties (like Labour) change their positions. So what?

And those parties don't have posters on here lying about their previous positions.

Funny how these threads are always replete with SF supporters "clarifying" what they meant when their lies get pointed out.

Simple tactic - make false claims repeatedly, but fall back to "that wasn't what I really meant" anytime the lies get pointed out. Do it enough and plenty of lies will be slipped through that weren't highlighted.

derfderf · 25-04-2019 10:51am

maccored wrote: »

well they've been claiming that for at least a few decades now. besides - ireland joined the EEC in 1973. Are you telling me SF campaiging in 1972 against the EEC bears any resemblance to SF now? Jaysus - you really are stretching things

They've campaigned against every treaty since. The talk from Sinn Fein in the run up to the Lisbon treaty is straight out of the Brexiters handbook.
I actually have no problem with them being eurosceptics, but to position themselves as a foil to the brexit parties is pure opportunism.

derfderf · 25-04-2019 10:54am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Didn't Labour also campaign against it?

Maybe they did, but they haven't campaigned against every single trearty since. Now they're the EU party in the north purely to be seen on the other side of the fence from the sh*tshow going on in the UK at the moment.

FrancieBrady · 25-04-2019 10:58am

blackwhite wrote: »

And those parties don't have posters on here lying about their previous positions.

Funny how these threads are always replete with SF supporters "clarifying" what they meant when their lies get pointed out.

Simple tactic - make false claims repeatedly, but fall back to "that wasn't what I really meant" anytime the lies get pointed out. Do it enough and plenty of lies will be slipped through that weren't highlighted.

The poster clarified immediately what was meant. Hardly somebody intent on lying.

Is it that you think that they are really anti EU?

jm08 · 25-04-2019 10:59am

derfderf wrote: »

They've campaigned against every treaty since. The talk from Sinn Fein in the run up to the Lisbon treaty is straight out of the Brexiters handbook.
I actually have no problem with them being eurosceptics, but to position themselves as a foil to the brexit parties is pure opportunism.

I think that pretty much everyone was worried about sovereignty in the Lisbon Treaty - that is why it was defeated the first time. The assurances were given by the EU were about sovereignty (Neutrality, Conscription, tax, social policy). I'm kind of glad there are legal agreements, particularly on the tax situation).

BonnieSituation · 25-04-2019 11:01am

blanch152 wrote: »

The DUP and SF have created a political vacuum in the North by refusing to put back in place the GFA institutions. They are jointly and equally to blame.

Well not exactly. But you knew that.

SF pulled out of power sharing for numerous reasons but mostly related to the sectarian guff of the DUP towards the Irish language and their refusal to implement an Irish language act DESPITE already agreeing to do so.

They also wanted Arlene Foster to step aside while the ongoing investigation into her role in the RHI scheme was investigated.

Hardly unreasonable requests.

Also let it not be forgotten that talks that occurred after the collapse of the executive were successful only to be nixed at the last minute by the Westminster cohort of the DUP.

(Remember Leo and Theresa legging it to Stormont to announce that the executive would be back only for the DUP to change their minds?)

So yeah, by my calculations, this vacuum exists almost solely because of the DUP.

The same DUP that want NI to leave the EU DESPITE the majority of NI wishing to stay.

Yeah, it's all SF's fault!

derfderf · 25-04-2019 11:02am

jm08 wrote: »

I think that pretty much everyone was worried about sovereignty in the Lisbon Treaty - that is why it was defeated the first time. The assurances were given by the EU were about sovereignty (Neutrality, Conscription, tax, social policy). I'm kind of glad there are legal agreements, particularly on the tax situation).

Neutrality, Conscription, tax, and social policy weren't even touched in the treaty. The assurances may have been necessary for the electorate who didn't read it all, or maybe didn't understand, but surely a serious political party should have known this and not needed assurances?

FrancieBrady · 25-04-2019 11:04am

derfderf wrote: »

Maybe they did, but they haven't campaigned against every single trearty since. Now they're the EU party in the north purely to be seen on the other side of the fence from the sh*tshow going on in the UK at the moment.

'The EU party in the north'?

What does that even mean? They do not want it to leave. That doesn't mean they have to change from been euro sceptic.
Personally, I would class myself very wary of where the EU is going, but I am fervently of favour of staying in it, and I think quite a few Irish voters would be the same.
It isn't a 'love-in' to take that position.

blackwhite · 25-04-2019 11:04am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The poster clarified immediately what was meant. Hardly somebody intent on lying.

And I'm sure if nobody had picked up on his false claims he'd have corrected himself as well :rolleyes:

As I already said - standard tactic of trying to slip lies through in the hope they won't be noticed

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Is it that you think that they are really anti EU?

That's been their position for every single EU vote in Ireland, and for every EU vote except for Brexit in the UK.
Maybe they've seen the light, or maybe they're just cynical opportunists who will sway whatever way the wind is blowing. Not like Sinn Fein have a recent history of populist u-turns or anything like that.

jm08 · 25-04-2019 11:10am

derfderf wrote: »

Neutrality, Conscription, tax, and social policy weren't even touched in the treaty. The assurances may have been necessary for the electorate who didn't read it all, or maybe didn't understand, but surely a serious political party should have known this and not needed assurances?

Who actually read the whole of the Lisbon Treaty? You would need to have been a constitutional lawyer to understand it to make those pronouncements.

FrancieBrady · 25-04-2019 11:13am

blackwhite wrote: »

That's been their position for every single EU vote in Ireland, and for every EU vote except for Brexit in the UK.
Maybe they've seen the light, or maybe they're just cynical opportunists who will sway whatever way the wind is blowing. Not like Sinn Fein have a recent history of populist u-turns or anything like that.

Far as I can see they have always advocated a policy of 'critical engagement' with the EU.

That seems sensible to me even though it may not be 'popular' with some. What has been done in the EU has clearly not always been in Ireland's favour.

derfderf · 25-04-2019 11:13am

jm08 wrote: »

Who actually read the whole of the Lisbon Treaty? You would need to have been a constitutional lawyer to understand it to make those pronouncements.

So where did Sinn Fein's position come from? Did they not read it, not understand it, or purposely misrepresent it?

blackwhite · 25-04-2019 11:15am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Far as I can see they have always advocated a policy of 'critical engagement' with the EU.

That seems sensible to me even though it may not be 'popular' with some. What has been done in the EU has clearly not always been in Ireland's favour.

The vast majoirty of what the EU has done has been in Ireland's favour though, and SF have opposed all of it - not just the "bad" bits.

Disingenuous in the extreme to oppose every single thing (including membership) and to then try and paint it as "critical engagement".

It's been blind opposition to everything from day 1, right up until Brexit made them realise exactly what the end game is for the path SF had been advocating for 40+ years

FrancieBrady · 25-04-2019 11:17am

derfderf wrote: »

So where did Sinn Fein's position come from? Did they not read it, not understand it, or purposely misrepresent it?

Can you not do some research before commenting?

https://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/12457

FrancieBrady · 25-04-2019 11:19am

blackwhite wrote: »

The vast majoirty of what the EU has done has been in Ireland's favour though, and SF have opposed all of it - not just the "bad" bits.

Disingenuous in the extreme to oppose every single thing (including membership) and to then try and paint it as "critical engagement".

It's been blind opposition to everything from day 1, right up until Brexit made them realise exactly what the end game is for the path SF had been advocating for 40+ years

'Blind'?

Same answer to you. Do some research before reaching for generalisations and tropes. From the same page as I posted to derpderp. This comes from 2008..a few seconds of googling.

"Sinn Féin's believes that Irelands place is within the EU. Irish membership has brought social and economic benefits to Ireland, north and south. We are also aware that not everything has been good news, and often proposals that emerge from within the EU institutions have negative effects on Ireland. So we believe that the best approach to the EU is to critically assess each proposal on its merits. When something is clearly not in our interests or that of the wider EU, we oppose it and campaign to change it

derfderf · 25-04-2019 11:22am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

'The EU party in the north'?

What does that even mean? They do not want it to leave. That doesn't mean they have to change from been euro sceptic.
Personally, I would class myself very wary of where the EU is going, but I am fervently of favour of staying in it, and I think quite a few Irish voters would be the same.
It isn't a 'love-in' to take that position.

I mean they're the party in the north that represents the people that voted remain.

decky1 · 25-04-2019 11:25am

I don't suppose it will ever happen, all they've promised about health care, schools etc maybe it's time to let bygones be bygones and give them a chance, could they be any worse than what's there already?

FrancieBrady · 25-04-2019 11:28am

derfderf wrote: »

I mean they're the party in the north that represents the people that voted remain.

As do the SDLP, Alliance, UUP and PBP.

But SF are 'the' EU party? :rolleyes:

derfderf · 25-04-2019 11:30am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

'Blind'?

Same answer to you. Do some research before reaching for generalisations and tropes. From the same page as I posted to derpderp. This comes from 2008..a few seconds of googling.

"When something is clearly not in our interests or that of the wider EU, we oppose it and campaign to change it"
So every single EU/ECC treaty, from membership, right up to Lisbon, has not been in Ireland's interest, but at the same time it's brought social and economic benefits north and south?

derfderf · 25-04-2019 11:32am

decky1 wrote: »

I don't suppose it will ever happen, all they've promised about health care, schools etc maybe it's time to let bygones be bygones and give them a chance, could they be any worse than what's there already?

Of course it could, they wanted us to copy Greece.

derfderf · 25-04-2019 11:35am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

As do the SDLP, Alliance, UUP and PBP.

But SF are 'the' EU party? :rolleyes:

Are they all historically eurosceptic parties? I actually don't know. I've no problem with eurosceptic parties, i do have a problem with them jumping on the remain bandwagon.

And this thread is about Sinn Fein anyway.

FrancieBrady · 25-04-2019 11:38am

derfderf wrote: »

"When something is clearly not in our interests or that of the wider EU, we oppose it and campaign to change it"
So every single EU/ECC treaty, from membership, right up to Lisbon, has not been in Ireland's interest, but at the same time it's brought social and economic benefits north and south?

Have you looked at the work of their MEP's in the actual Union? Has their work brought benefits for north and south?

Our relationship with the EU has not always been beneficial...or are you saying it has?

zapitastas · 25-04-2019 11:39am

Snow Garden wrote: »

Fair point and Mary Lou has been superb on recent referendums around SSM and Repeal8th. Arlene and here crew are in the 1800s when it comes to those issues.

Still though, the Irish language being a red line issue? It looks petty and pretentious.

If you look at it through the prism of the EU, the support of minority languages is anything but petty and pretentious. I imagine there are those in Brussels looking at the DUP in complete bewilderment.

maccored · 25-04-2019 11:40am

blackwhite wrote: »

I'm not the one making false claims on the thread.

Wasn't it you that claimed previously that in September 2016 Sinn Fein were unaware that Article 40 was going to be invoked - 3 months after the Leave vote had passed? And you accuse others of "stretching things"!

I dare say that to assume Sinn Fein in 1973 bears any resemblance to the SF of today is indeed stretching things

derfderf · 25-04-2019 11:43am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Have you looked at the work of their MEP's in the actual Union? Has their work brought benefits for north and south?

Our relationship with the EU has not always been beneficial...or are you saying it has?

We've had to give up a little to get a lot, in a lot of cases. That's part and parcel of pooling sovereignty etc.
In my opinion the EU has been overwhelmingly positive for Ireland. Do you think otherwise?

maccored · 25-04-2019 11:44am

blackwhite wrote: »

And I'm sure if nobody had picked up on his false claims he'd have corrected himself as well :rolleyes:

As I already said - standard tactic of trying to slip lies through in the hope they won't be noticed

Lies? Lies like SF in 1973 bare any reflection on SF today?

blackwhite · 25-04-2019 11:52am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

'Blind'?

Same answer to you. Do some research before reaching for generalisations and tropes. From the same page as I posted to derpderp. This comes from 2008..a few seconds of googling.

Actions speak significantly louder than how they try to spin it after the fact.

They've blindly opposed every single EU vote in Ireland - including membership.

derfderf · 25-04-2019 11:55am

blackwhite wrote: »

Actions speak significantly louder than how they try to spin it after the fact.

They've blindly opposed every single EU vote in Ireland - including membership.

If they were correct they could say "we tried to warn you". When nothing comes if it we move on and forget?

FrancieBrady · 25-04-2019 11:56am

derfderf wrote: »

We've had to give up a little to get a lot, in a lot of cases. That's part and parcel of pooling sovereignty etc.
In my opinion the EU has been overwhelmingly positive for Ireland. Do you think otherwise?

It has nothing to do with what 'I' think or what 'you think'. (I happen to think it has been hugely beneficial to Ireland)

There is an implication being made that SF are anti-EU. I think that is unfair and part of the usual anti-republican bias you get on here.

blackwhite · 25-04-2019 11:56am

maccored wrote: »

Lies? Lies like SF in 1973 bare any reflection on SF today?

Maybe the SF-approved dictionary has a different definition of the word "always" to the one the rest of the world uses?

Does the SF dictionary have a definition of "always" that excludes every single EU referendum held in Ireland?

Most people have the common decency to hold their hand up and admit a mistake when the blindingly obvious is pointed out to them. Not so for the SF support on here it seems. Quelle surprise :rolleyes:

derfderf · 25-04-2019 11:58am

maccored wrote: »

I dare say that to assume Sinn Fein in 1973 bears any resemblance to the SF of today is indeed stretching things

What about 1992, 2001, 2002, 2008, and 2009?

BarryD2 · 25-04-2019 11:59am

blackwhite wrote: »

Maybe they've seen the light, or maybe they're just cynical opportunists who will sway whatever way the wind is blowing. Not like Sinn Fein have a recent history of populist u-turns or anything like that.

I think SF like many parties will sway on matters like this according to what way they think the public are inclined. Look at the water charges issue, initially they were on board with the 'polluter pays principle', that it would be fair if the wealthier with more bath rooms and pools paid more with metered charges etc. I heard party reps saying they'd register and pay, not too dissimilar from the north etc. But as soon as they figured that the grassroot urban dweller couldn't give a feck about paying by use or even paying anything at all, they changed tune pronto.

But these policies & politicking are all a means to a greater agenda that can be implemented when they've enough bums on seats and everything else is a means to get there. And that agenda is a united Ireland whether a substantial proportion of the population agree or not. A simple majority is their plan and to hell with the consequences. It's a valid agenda in it's own way but it's the agenda of the zealot and the ordinary voter should always be wary of the zealot. These people whether of a nationalistic or religious bent always spell trouble.

dundalkfc10 · 25-04-2019 11:59am

VOTE DUP

FrancieBrady · 25-04-2019 11:59am

blackwhite wrote: »

Actions speak significantly louder than how they try to spin it after the fact.

They've blindly opposed every single EU vote in Ireland - including membership.

Again with the 'blindly'. They have opposed them for very clear reasons (rightly or wrongly) and that is what I would expect any political party to do.

I would be skeptical of where the EU is headed and would advocate large reforms while not being in the slightest 'anti EU' and recognising it's many many benefits.
I consider most Irish voters to be in the same boat tbh.

blackwhite · 25-04-2019 12:00pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It has nothing to do with what 'I' think or what 'you think'. (I happen to think it has been hugely beneficial to Ireland)

There is an implication being made that SF are anti-EU. I think that is unfair and part of the usual anti-republican bias you get on here.

If you come from a viewpoint where nothing SF have ever, ever done can be criticised then maybe you can arrive at that weird viewpoint. (and of course - the thinnly veiled insinuations that you can't be "republican" if you criticise the SF cult).

In the real world however, most people would see it as a fair summation that a party that has campaigned to reject every single EU referendum in Ireland is anti-EU. (and that's before we recall their cheerleading for the anti-EU parties like Syriza)

derfderf · 25-04-2019 12:02pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It has nothing to do with what 'I' think or what 'you think'. (I happen to think it has been hugely beneficial to Ireland)

There is an implication being made that SF are anti-EU. I think that is unfair and part of the usual anti-republican bias you get on here.

They campaigned against membership, and campaigned against three further treaties (two of them twice). Is it really that much of a stretch to think they're anti-eu?

FrancieBrady · 25-04-2019 12:08pm

blackwhite wrote: »

If you come from a viewpoint where nothing SF have ever, ever done can be criticised then maybe you can arrive at that weird viewpoint. (and of course - the thinnly veiled insinuations that you can't be "republican" if you criticise the SF cult).

In the real world however, most people would see it as a fair summation that a party that has campaigned to reject every single EU referendum in Ireland is anti-EU. (and that's before we recall their cheerleading for the anti-EU parties like Syriza)

You make it sound like there were hundreds of referendums.

I have plenty of criticisms of SF's economic policies etc which is why I am not a voter for them. (excepting M. McG for Pres and some local candidates)

Again I ask you too, have you reviewed the work of their MEP's and arrived at them having an 'anti-EU' stance?

Why would the leader of a party (not normally afraid to speak up on his beliefs) say 'that Ireland's place is within the EU in 2008, if he believed otherwise at that point?

Are you perhaps the one now trying to promote a simplistic falsehood?

BarryD2 · 25-04-2019 12:11pm

derfderf wrote: »

They campaigned against membership, and campaigned against three further treaties (two of them twice). Is it really that much of a stretch to think they're anti-eu?

I'd have always thought that SF were broadly euro skeptics. Their position up north is surely to take an opposing position to whatever the DUP propose. Put it this way, if the Republic was angling to get out of the EU and the DUP wanted to remain, then SF would soon switch - whatever works in the moment.

Listening to Arlene and Mary Lou this morning, despite squirming a bit, it's clear they are 'happy' enough with the status quo of their relevant positions. Normal service to be resumed.

derfderf · 25-04-2019 12:20pm

BarryD2 wrote: »

I'd have always thought that SF were broadly euro skeptics. Their position up north is surely to take an opposing position to whatever the DUP propose. Put it this way, if the Republic was angling to get out of the EU and the DUP wanted to remain, then SF would soon switch - whatever works in the moment.

That was my point to begin with a few pages back. They're opportunistic.

If Ireland was angling to leave the EU, and that became their position, I'd actually find it more believable to the foil to Brexit position they're taking now.

They can't deny the benefits of the EU, and I'm not saying they have, but they're against the costs and responsibilities that come with membership. Would a pro EU party really have been cheerleading Syriza's approach?

BarryD2 · 25-04-2019 12:22pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Why would the leader of a party (not normally afraid to speak up on his beliefs) say 'that Ireland's place is within the EU in 2008, if he believed otherwise at that point?

Because simply SF (and the Republic) perceived that seeing NI as an entity within a broader EU framework along with the Republic and England, Scotland & Wales was closer to the United Ireland ideal - than one where NI is perceived part of a narrower UK framework. All a means to an end, a way of stepping of the agenda forward.

And I like probably most citizens of the Republic have no issue with that agenda, as long as it is achieved by broad consensus among all the people of the island, including our unionist brethren. That consensus can only be achieved by moving closer to unionism, by reaching out to them and accommodating them. We sadly just don't see that.

blackwhite · 25-04-2019 12:38pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You make it sound like there were hundreds of referendums.

I have plenty of criticisms of SF's economic policies etc which is why I am not a voter for them. (excepting M. McG for Pres and some local candidates)

Again I ask you too, have you reviewed the work of their MEP's and arrived at them having an 'anti-EU' stance?

Why would the leader of a party (not normally afraid to speak up on his beliefs) say 'that Ireland's place is within the EU in 2008, if he believed otherwise at that point?

Are you perhaps the one now trying to promote a simplistic falsehood?

No - I'm simply surmising their position based on their actions - not on their spin. Not everyone unquestioningly takes the statements of politicians as fact - judging on their actions tend to give more solid evidence.

maccored · 25-04-2019 1:41pm

blackwhite wrote: »

Maybe the SF-approved dictionary has a different definition of the word "always" to the one the rest of the world uses?

Does the SF dictionary have a definition of "always" that excludes every single EU referendum held in Ireland?

Most people have the common decency to hold their hand up and admit a mistake when the blindingly obvious is pointed out to them. Not so for the SF support on here it seems. Quelle surprise :rolleyes:

maybe because the rest of us are quite aware of the massive difference between the SF party we know today compared to at its very very beginnings? You on the other hand dont seem to.

maccored · 25-04-2019 1:43pm

derfderf wrote: »

What about 1992, 2001, 2002, 2008, and 2009?

what is your point? To be in the EU means you cant disagree with anything? Thats not a very democratic viewpoint

FrancieBrady · 25-04-2019 1:46pm

blackwhite wrote: »

No - I'm simply surmising their position based on their actions - not on their spin. Not everyone unquestioningly takes the statements of politicians as fact - judging on their actions tend to give more solid evidence.

But you didn't seem to know what they were saying in 2008.

Being under-informed is your problem really if you wish to make serious political comment.
I think you 'surmised' before you researched tbh.

blackwhite · 25-04-2019 1:57pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

But you didn't seem to know what they were saying in 2008.

Being under-informed is your problem really if you wish to make serious political comment.
I think you 'surmised' before you researched tbh.

What they are doing is considerably more weighty that whatever spin or propaganda they put out. Actions speak louder than words after all - especially when those words come from a politician.

Most people have the brain power to assess the evidence in front of them, and not just blindly accept every word that comes out of a politicians mouth as gospel.

You seem to have one hell of a blind spot when it comes to "critically appraising" statements from Sinn Féin - especially when those statements run contrary to how Sinn Féin have actually acted.

FrancieBrady · 25-04-2019 2:07pm

blackwhite wrote: »

What they are doing is considerably more weighty that whatever spin or propaganda they put out. Actions speak louder than words after all - especially when those words come from a politician.

Most people have the brain power to assess the evidence in front of them, and not just blindly accept every word that comes out of a politicians mouth as gospel.

You seem to have one hell of a blind spot when it comes to "critically appraising" statements from Sinn Féin - especially when those statements run contrary to how Sinn Féin have actually acted.

But I have watched my local MEP's in action...like actually done research on them, and during this term Mairead McGuinness comes in as my number 1 followed by Matt Carthy of SF.

What Carthy has done would come under the heading of 'actions' too, as would the work of the other SF MEP's - but of course some people only want to see the stuff that fits the narrative/spin they wish to post.

What they have done fits in perfectly with what their leader said: 'Ireland's place is in the EU...etc' because they have worked for the region and the country and most certainly don't portray an 'anti-EU' stance that I can see.

You seem blinded to this reality tbh.

derfderf · 25-04-2019 2:17pm

maccored wrote: »

what is your point? To be in the EU means you cant disagree with anything? Thats not a very democratic viewpoint

Of course you can disagree. To say you're on board with it, but disagree every time a question is out to you, is disingenuous.
To me it's like voting against a party, or something like ssm, but also saying you support it.

Why would you vote SF?

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