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Is the possibility of a God not a scary thought...?
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Sandor Clegane wrote: »After listening to some prominent atheists and doing some research the idea that there maybe a god is just as scary as the thought of simply nothing.
An all powerful god decides to create the world and humans and then fills the world with such pain and misery and then expects us to worship him constantly, why? It then tries to fill us with fear of his wrath if we disobey in anyway.
What kind of a god is it to do that? a very scary one in my honest opinion, I mean if I created life the last thing I would want to do is bestow untold misery on it and then demand it grovels to me, that's insane.
How do people reconcile the fact they are worshiping a god that does and behaves this way? We condemn dictators and evil despots for doing this kind of thing but God gets a free pass, why? is it not just as wrong? are people only believing and following out of fear?
Also how many religions and gods are there in the world? we only believe in what we believe because of geography...they can't all be true, if we were born in a different era or a different part of the world our beliefs would be totally different, yet Catholics and Christians don't bat an eye in not believing in any other religion or God..
Iv'e been struggling with this lately, id always considered myself a lapsed catholic, I don't attend church but I believed there maybe something, but now the thought of something is just as scary, if not scarier than simply ceasing to exist.
Hi Sandor Clegane,
I think your picture of God is out of sync. The early believers called the preaching about God 'euangelion' - the Good News. How does that square up to what you described?
You have painted an image of a tyrant who demands utter submission while causing untold misery. You are right - if this god existed, the world would be an insane and scary place.
I am a Christian, a practicing Catholic. What you described is not the God whom I know.
Did you ever consider that you were created by God to spend eternity with Him, in safety and bliss?
"For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future." (Jeremiah 29:11)
Did you ever consider that God came and died for you on the cross, to save you from the consequences of your sins?
"For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost." (Luke 19:10)
"[Mary] will have a son, and you are to name him Jesus, for He will save his people from their sins.” (Matthew 1:21)
Did you ever consider that God loves you?
"See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God!" (1 John 3:1)
God loves humanity and is very much on our side. He wants to save us from ourselves - that is why He gave us the Commandments. Let's have a quick look:
- Thou shall not steal - ensures justice, protection for the weakest;
- Thou shall not commit adultery - protects children and spouses from a broken family and the terrible hurt this brings;
- Keep holy the Sabbath day - ensures we get proper rest, are not exploited by callous employers etc.
The problem of suffering which you mention is a real one. Suffering is undoubtedly part of our lived experience and always will be. Moreover, God allows suffering (notice that He is not the one proverbially smiting people from a cloud). I doubt I would be able to do the problem justice in one post. A few things to remember though:
1) Much of our suffering is self inflicted;
2) We learn from our suffering, sometimes it is the only way we will learn; and
3) Something went wrong at the beginning of man's existence. The Bible shrouds it in mystery (The Garden of Eden narrative), but something is undoubtedly not as it should be. For example, why do we have such powerful inclinations to do evil? Whatever happened, we are still living with the consequences of that event, consequences which translate into major suffering.
Peter Kreeft has a good article on the issue, I hope he will make a lot more sense than I do:
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/the-problem-of-suffering-reconsidered
As to the myriad of religions, I think that humanity has a desperate need to reconnect with its Creator. If people cannot know and worship Him in truth, as He is, they will seek out a relationship with Him any way they can. This means writing their own back story, prescribing their own rituals etc.
But let's look at the Christian position. Many people think that sure, a Jesus lived 2,000 years ago (there is much extra-biblical evidence for His existence, such as the Letter of Pliny to the Roman Emperor and the writings of Tacitus on the Lives of the Caesars), but that He was just a good man, helping out etc. The problem is that Jesus does not leave this option open for us. He openly claimed to be the Son of God, to be divine. Therefore, He was a) bad, leading people astray for personal gain b)mad, leading people astray because He lost his mind or c) God, as in He was who He said He was. Considering what He taught (love, forgiveness, sacrifice, salvation, friendship with God), if you are unwilling to call Him crazy or evil, than could He possibly be....God?
As to the position of Catholicism, consider this authentic account of Christian worship from 155 A.D. You will find that it mirrors the modern Catholic Mass. 2,000 years on, same teaching, same worship.
To sum up, do not give up on a relationship with God, who is a loving, caring and merciful God. It is the greatest adventure you could possibly embark on. You will do things you have never dreamed of doing.
Sure, looking back on our life, the evil we have done might fill us with dread, but the truth is that every saint has a past and every sinner has a future. At life's end, we will all be judged (because God is also a just God), but the good news is that our sins can be forgiven in the sacrament of Confession. The slate can be made clean.
"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9)
[Jesus to disciples]"If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.” (John 20:23)
I would advise you to pray to God, in your own words. Get yourself a copy of the New Testament and the Catechism, study them, get to know God and cease your fear and trembling.
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Kyree Icy Reforestation wrote: »Hi Sandor Clegane,
I think your picture of God is out of sync. The early believers called the preaching about God 'euangelion' - the Good News. How does that square up to what you described?
You have painted an image of a tyrant who demands utter submission while causing untold misery. You are right - if this god existed, the world would be an insane and scary place.
I am a Christian, a practicing Catholic. What you described is not the God whom I know.
Did you ever consider that you were created by God to spend eternity with Him, in safety and bliss?
"For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future." (Jeremiah 29:11)
Did you ever consider that God came and died for you on the cross, to save you from the consequences of your sins?
"For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost." (Luke 19:10)
"[Mary] will have a son, and you are to name him Jesus, for He will save his people from their sins.” (Matthew 1:21)
Did you ever consider that God loves you?
"See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God!" (1 John 3:1)
God loves humanity and is very much on our side. He wants to save us from ourselves - that is why He gave us the Commandments. Let's have a quick look:
- Thou shall not steal - ensures justice, protection for the weakest;
- Thou shall not commit adultery - protects children and spouses from a broken family and the terrible hurt this brings;
- Keep holy the Sabbath day - ensures we get proper rest, are not exploited by callous employers etc.
The problem of suffering which you mention is a real one. Suffering is undoubtedly part of our lived experience and always will be. Moreover, God allows suffering (notice that He is not the one proverbially smiting people from a cloud). I doubt I would be able to do the problem justice in one post. A few things to remember though:
1) Much of our suffering is self inflicted;
2) We learn from our suffering, sometimes it is the only way we will learn; and
3) Something went wrong at the beginning of man's existence. The Bible shrouds it in mystery (The Garden of Eden narrative), but something is undoubtedly not as it should be. For example, why do we have such powerful inclinations to do evil? Whatever happened, we are still living with the consequences of that event, consequences which translate into major suffering.
Peter Kreeft has a good article on the issue, I hope he will make a lot more sense than I do:
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/the-problem-of-suffering-reconsidered
As to the myriad of religions, I think that humanity has a desperate need to reconnect with its Creator. If people cannot know and worship Him in truth, as He is, they will seek out a relationship with Him any way they can. This means writing their own back story, prescribing their own rituals etc.
But let's look at the Christian position. Many people think that sure, a Jesus lived 2,000 years ago (there is much extra-biblical evidence for His existence, such as the Letter of Pliny to the Roman Emperor and the writings of Tacitus on the Lives of the Caesars), but that He was just a good man, helping out etc. The problem is that Jesus does not leave this option open for us. He openly claimed to be the Son of God, to be divine. Therefore, He was a) bad, leading people astray for personal gain b)mad, leading people astray because He lost his mind or c) God, as in He was who He said He was. Considering what He taught (love, forgiveness, sacrifice, salvation, friendship with God), if you are unwilling to call Him crazy or evil, than could He possibly be....God?
As to the position of Catholicism, consider this authentic account of Christian worship from 155 A.D. You will find that it mirrors the modern Catholic Mass. 2,000 years on, same teaching, same worship.
To sum up, do not give up on a relationship with God, who is a loving, caring and merciful God. It is the greatest adventure you could possibly embark on. You will do things you have never dreamed of doing.
Sure, looking back on our life, the evil we have done might fill us with dread, but the truth is that every saint has a past and every sinner has a future. At life's end, we will all be judged (because God is also a just God), but the good news is that our sins can be forgiven in the sacrament of Confession. The slate can be made clean.
"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9)
[Jesus to disciples]"If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.” (John 20:23)
I would advise you to pray to God, in your own words. Get yourself a copy of the New Testament and the Catechism, study them, get to know God and cease your fear and trembling.
Tie that in with a God that apparently created childhood cancer for some sadistic reason.0 -
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Kyree Icy Reforestation wrote: »...
You have painted an image of a tyrant who demands utter submission while causing untold misery. You are right - if this god existed, the world would be an insane and scary place.
...
1) Much of our suffering is self inflicted;
2) We learn from our suffering, sometimes it is the only way we will learn; and
3) Something went wrong at the beginning of man's existence. The Bible shrouds it in mystery (The Garden of Eden narrative), but something is undoubtedly not as it should be. For example, why do we have such powerful inclinations to do evil? Whatever happened, we are still living with the consequences of that event, consequences which translate into major suffering.
...
To sum up, do not give up on a relationship with God, who is a loving, caring and merciful God. It is the greatest adventure you could possibly embark on. You will do things you have never dreamed of doing.
Sure, looking back on our life, the evil we have done might fill us with dread, but the truth is that every saint has a past and every sinner has a future. At life's end, we will all be judged (because God is also a just God), but the good news is that our sins can be forgiven in the sacrament of Confession. The slate can be made clean.
"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9)
[Jesus to disciples]"If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.” (John 20:23)
I would advise you to pray to God, in your own words. Get yourself a copy of the New Testament and the Catechism, study them, get to know God and cease your fear and trembling.
You have painted an image of a tyrant who demands utter submission while causing untold misery. You are right - if this god existed, the world would be an insane and scary place.
And the world was an insane and scary place for centuries while the church held sway at its height of power. Its only now that people are becoming more rational and able to think for themselves that rationality has emerged.
For example, why do we have such powerful inclinations to do evil? I cannot recall any circumstance where I might have had such inclinations. Oh granted, I am not perfect, but evil? No, not at all. And of all the people I have ever known personally there was maybe one that was seriously disturbed, a few that were selfish and/or obnoxious. But evil, no.
And the business about confession, little children are taught to search their minds for things to confess, small, childish things that they are made to feel guilty for, and you are comparing it to evil?
And ordinary men were given the power to decide who should be 'forgiven', whether they knew what forgiveness other people might need? Is there any wonder the church leadership became populated with arrogant, opinionated, authoritarians.
It is the greatest adventure you could possibly embark on. You will do things you have never dreamed of doing.
- For example? If not specifically, what kind of things are you talking about?
Sure, looking back on our life, the evil we have done might fill us with dread
Well I have a good bit of life to look back on and am not filled with dread. I may not have got everything right, I probably got very little absolutely right, but I can promise you there was no evil.
and cease your fear and trembling. Reading your post I can see how anyone might be excused for wondering where the love came in and might indeed be in fear and trembling.
I think this is the problem, there is the original message and then there is the layers and heaps and mountains of interpretation, hindsight and remembering that has been put on it since, and including, the time the gospels were written between 40 and 100 years after Jesus' death.
I realise as I write that my comments are not about God or Christianity particularly, they are about the way any message has been meddled with by people speaking on God's behalf over the last 2000 years.0 -
Kyree Icy Reforestation wrote: »You have painted an image of a tyrant who demands utter submission while causing untold misery. You are right - if this god existed, the world would be an insane and scary place.
Yet three of the ten commandments are about worshipping this god - seems a bit self-obsessed.Did you ever consider that God came and died for you on the cross, to save you from the consequences of your sins?
Save us from a punishment created by that god?He openly claimed to be the Son of God, to be divine. Therefore, He was a) bad, leading people astray for personal gain b)mad, leading people astray because He lost his mind or c) God, as in He was who He said He was. Considering what He taught (love, forgiveness, sacrifice, salvation, friendship with God), if you are unwilling to call Him crazy or evil, than could He possibly be....God?
What about (d) none of the above. The gospels were written long after his death and no doubt a great deal of embellishment went on. Jesus died a Jew.I would advise you to pray to God, in your own words. Get yourself a copy of the New Testament and the Catechism, study them, get to know God and cease your fear and trembling.
So ignore the old testament - where there is plenty of the smiting you said your god doesn't do?
The NT is certainly not all peace and love either, although what is presented in the Catholic mass in particular is heavily cherry-picked.Scrap the cap!
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OK, so we have arrived at a position where you accept that the "problem of evil" has no bearing on the existence of God. This is progress.Deleted User wrote: »God can still exist because children get cancer, just not a particularly nice God. Saying that it's OK that he invented something that has killed many babies (possibly the only living humans that have never sinned) because "he has good reasons that we could never possibly understand" is quite the get-out-of-jail-free card. Remind me to use it if I ever feel like cheating on my partner.
Your excuse might work, should you be an all powerful and all knowing God. I have no doubt your wife is very fond of you, but I doubt she thinks that highly of you
Seriously though, it is perfectly logically sound to postulate that an all knowing and powerful God allows things to happen for an ultimate good reason that we cannot, at this stage of our existence, understand or comprehend.0 -
John Hutton wrote: »OK, so we have arrived at a position where you accept that the "problem of evil" has no bearing on the existence of God. This is progress.
Your excuse might work, should you be an all powerful and all knowing God. I have no doubt your wife is very fond of you, but I doubt she thinks that highly of you
Seriously though, it is perfectly logically sound to postulate that an all knowing and powerful God allows things to happen for an ultimate good reason that we cannot, at this stage of our existence, understand or comprehend.
Childhood cancer and worse is allowed to exist, which God could prevent but chooses not to, for reasons we cannot comprehend. Just need to have faith, despite the lack of any evidence.
Sucks for the kid with cancer.
It is perfectly sound to postulate that all knowing and all powerful Gods attrbution of suffering to those most vulnerable and most innocent isn't worthy of worship from anyone.0 -
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auspicious wrote: »I've had the thought that 'God' was meticulously planning a perfect creation but by accident, with its below, knocked over a beaker and our universe was born and it thought " To hell with it I'll just see what happens.".
You should really learn to keep your thoughts to yourself
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SouthWesterly wrote: »You should really learn to keep your thoughts to yourselfSouthWesterly wrote: »HD made a statement. I asked a question. Whether you're comfortable or not is irrelevant. Suggest you get a soft cushion!
Mod warning: Please play the ball and not the man when you disagree with other posters. Please do not discuss this in thread but feel free to do so in the feedback thread or via PM. Thanks for your attention.0 -
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