Has anyone invested in an EII project/scheme?

Nermal · 10-12-2020 10:11am

Businesses to invest in will only be identified in Q1 2021 after the fund is actually set up, though I imagine they already have shortlists and so-on. Goodbody were the only ones to give information on the composition (though not performance) of past funds, and some companies received investments in repeated years. You really are just trusting the fund managers. Personally, I think that's less risky than going DIY, especially given your risk will be spread over multiple companies.

I don't know why there is such a hurried schedule, but possibly it's because people will only decide what to invest in December once they have a clear idea of their 40% PAYE exposure that they wish to offset.

The payment actually has to be made in 2020 to offset PAYE in that year. I've no idea why the legislation was drafted that way, it would be much better to be able to make it up to October 2021 like a pension contribution. I get the feeling Revenue operate this thing under protest!

I can post the BVP/Goodbody/Davy prospectuses if mods give the go-ahead?

curiousinvestor · 10-12-2020 1:17pm

there is a brewery / distillery being built outside Killarney also looking for EIIS investment.
Existing business developing new premises Construction of new site underway.
I was looking at it.
Also looked at BVP documentation
Never invested in EIIS previously

Gman1987 · 11-12-2020 12:58am

BVP still have not finalised their investments for the 2019 fund so that means investors are still waiting for the statement of qualification. Also means that an investment that is advertised as four years will likely turn into minimum five years.

caviardreams · 11-12-2020 8:35am

Gman1987 wrote: »

BVP still have not finalised their investments for the 2019 fund so that means investors are still waiting for the statement of qualification. Also means that an investment that is advertised as four years will likely turn into minimum five years.

That's poor imo. One advantage with going on your own I guess is you have ore control, though I do see the benefits of diversification. If you have a good sense of the product/service though and and understanding of the sector, I think it can make sense. Still a risk obviously.

curiousinvestor · 11-12-2020 10:17am

I think it's more than poor.
Is it not misleading
I've gotten phone calls and brochures and that was never mentioned. I specifically asked about the timing of the tax back and was not informed of any such delays in an existing fund.
I'll ask the question again today

Cute Hoor · 11-12-2020 12:18pm

Gman1987 wrote: »

BVP still have not finalised their investments for the 2019 fund so that means investors are still waiting for the statement of qualification. Also means that an investment that is advertised as four years will likely turn into minimum five years.

This is the reason that I wouldn't be going with a fund, you need to know who you are investing in and just as importantly get your money invested immediately so that their is minimum delay in your return.

My understanding though is that you would get the tax back immediately, I think investing in the fund is sufficient for the statement of qualification, I could be wrong on that though

Gman1987 · 11-12-2020 12:37pm

Cute Hoor wrote: »

This is the reason that I wouldn't be going with a fund, you need to know who you are investing in and just as importantly get your money invested immediately so that their is minimum delay in your return.

My understanding though is that you would get the tax back immediately, I think investing in the fund is sufficient for the statement of qualification, I could be wrong on that though

No, they cant issue the statement of qualification until all the companies have hit the 30%. Last year was the first year I put part of my EIIS investments into a fund and they are the only one I'm waiting for a statement of qualification from. I'm trying to get to a position where eventually I have EIIS schemes maturing that are then reinvested for the next EIIS scheme so turnaround of revenue refunds and investment are critical. Gone all direct investments this year

curiousinvestor · 11-12-2020 1:41pm

hi gman, apologies if you stated this already but what do you mean by "Direct"
Is that one company type investment through an investment firm/ accountant ?

I've asked bvp this morn about the return of tax / declaration etcetc. I didn't get a straight answer, other than it may take a year to get the declaration sorted. So I'm reading that as I won't claim on the 2020 tax return,its 2021. So thats not great

Gman1987 · 11-12-2020 1:56pm

curiousinvestor wrote: »

hi gman, apologies if you stated this already but what do you mean by "Direct"
Is that one company type investment through an investment firm/ accountant ?

I've asked bvp this morn about the return of tax / declaration etcetc. I didn't get a straight answer, other than it may take a year to get the declaration sorted. So I'm reading that as I won't claim on the 2020 tax return,its 2021. So thats not great

Invested in companies directly rather than via funds such as BVP, Davy etc. If you are thinking of investing ensure you do your own research. From speaking to some of the firms previously who offers EIIS fund opportunities their past performance has been anything from 65% to 115%. If you invest direct with a company instead the return could be anything from 0% to what they agreed in the initial offer i.e. you could loose all if they go bankrupt. You are taking on a risk by investing in either option so what I would say is ensure you fully understand the risk involved and don't invest what you cant afford to loose.

One More Toy · 11-12-2020 3:16pm

Gman1987 wrote: »

Invested in companies directly rather than via funds such as BVP, Davy etc. If you are thinking of investing ensure you do your own research. From speaking to some of the firms previously who offers EIIS fund opportunities their past performance has been anything from 65% to 115%. If you invest direct with a company instead the return could be anything from 0% to what they agreed in the initial offer i.e. you could loose all if they go bankrupt. You are taking on a risk by investing in either option so what I would say is ensure you fully understand the risk involved and don't invest what you cant afford to loose.

Hi gman

Just wondering where you would find direct opportunities to invest in individual companies?

Thanks
Omt

Gman1987 · 11-12-2020 3:25pm

One More Toy wrote: »

Hi gman

Just wondering where you would find direct opportunities to invest in individual companies?

Thanks
Omt

Most tend to advertise in the SBP. They ran a special on EIIS options about three weeks ago. Their generally isnt that many options available so Cute Hoor has already listed anything that I seen this year.

One More Toy · 11-12-2020 3:43pm

Gman1987 wrote: »

Most tend to advertise in the SBP. They ran a special on EIIS options about three weeks ago. Their generally isnt that many options available so Cute Hoor has already listed anything that I seen this year.

Thanks, the sbp is a good read but I never get the time

caviardreams · 11-12-2020 7:12pm

curiousinvestor wrote: »

I've asked bvp this morn about the return of tax / declaration etcetc. I didn't get a straight answer, other than it may take a year to get the declaration sorted. So I'm reading that as I won't claim on the 2020 tax return,its 2021. So thats not great

No, I think if you invest the money in 2020 you claim it back from your 2020 tax paid, however the delay in getting the documentation sorted means it would be well into 2021 before you could actually claim it back and get the refund.

curiousinvestor · 11-12-2020 9:54pm

caviardreams wrote: »

No, I think if you invest the money in 2020 you claim it back from your 2020 tax paid, however the delay in getting the documentation sorted means it would be well into 2021 before you could actually claim it back and get the refund.

yes you are correct caviardreams.
I didn't proof read my post i meant get refund i
2021 Apologies all.

duffysfarm · 14-12-2020 7:08pm

i have invested in the Great Northern Distillery and this will hopefully mature next year. i think this sector looks a bit saturated at the moment. There is a distillery in ballymahon which makes gunpowder gin and it is open this year but there are a few questions around this also.
took part in the BVP webinar a short time ago and i have received a lot of calls from them since then and this is disappointing considering some of the earlier posts.
Was looking at the Crematorium before and was going to do it - looked interesting with long term prospects.
I think some of the smaller ones with better prospects get snapped up by a small group that are either private clients or the accountants themselves

curiousinvestor · 14-12-2020 7:41pm

I'm still looking at the distillery in Killarney.
The new premises and visitor centre is half built

duffysfarm · 14-12-2020 8:27pm

Took a look at their website and they seem to be a decent company in that they have raised a good but in the past so seem to have a good track record. May look further into this

curiousinvestor wrote: »

I'm still looking at the distillery in Killarney.
The new premises and visitor centre is half built

One More Toy · 15-12-2020 6:25pm

Are there eii schemes advertised regularly in the business post? Thinking of taking a subscription in the new year. Or is it geared towards the end of the year mostly?

duffysfarm · 15-12-2020 6:31pm

If you take out an investment now you will.get the relief on 2021 income which will be submitted some time in 2022 so people tend to wait towards the end of the year so there money qont be tied up as long. Not many of yhe schemes would be open early in the tlyear because of this

One More Toy wrote: »

Are there eii schemes advertised regularly in the business post? Thinking of taking a subscription in the new year. Or is it geared towards the end of the year mostly?

Cute Hoor · 15-12-2020 7:31pm

duffysfarm wrote: »

If you take out an investment now you will.get the relief on 2021 income which will be submitted some time in 2022 so people tend to wait towards the end of the year so there money qont be tied up as long. Not many of yhe schemes would be open early in the tlyear because of this

If you invest in an EIIS business (as opposed to fund) now you will get your tax relief on 2020 income, and you will get it in early 2021. SBP generally speaking only start advertising EIIS schemes from early to mid November, because these schemes are generally not available before then. Makes sense to invest as late as you can in the current year and get your income tax refund as soon as possible in the following year.

One More Toy · 16-12-2020 2:21pm

If anyone sees any schemes pop up will you let us know? I'm specifically interested in wind farms.

Timing doesn't matter as I know what my income will be for 2021

Tia
Omt

One More Toy · 20-12-2020 4:34pm

Just out of curiosity, are eii schemes advertised in the business post throughout the year or is it tailored towards the end of the year?

It's a good read anyway I'm thinking of getting it delivered

Water John · 20-12-2020 7:58pm

End of year.

sector_000 · 23-12-2020 7:47pm

Cute Hoor wrote: »

Did the Goodbody prospectus identify the businesses you would be investing in, I'd be concerned if they didn't.

They mentioned some of the companies by name they were considering (typically ones funded in the prior year coming back for another funding round), and then gave sector categories for their other contenders.

sector_000 · 23-12-2020 8:25pm

Coming a bit late to this thread...

I invested in two BES (precursor to EIIS):
- 2009 - 5~6 different sub-investments.... got all the tax relief, but only got 75% of my gross money back (so far!).... hit by GFC. Might get another ~10% more.
- 2011 - windfarms, good, paid ~14% bonus (plus all the tax benefits), took 6 years from start to payout

EIIS investments:
- 2012 - windfarm - all good
- 2013 - windfarm - all good
- 2014 - windfarm - all good
- 2015 - windfarm 1 & 2 - all good
- distillery - company screwed up tax relief rules - but expect to get a reasonable payout in H1'2021
- fund - invested into 5 different sub-investments - however, maturity definitely delayed...
and I believe some impairment is likely due to Covid
- 2016 - distillery - expect to mature good - offered an election to defer maturity till 2022 to optimize tax treatment of bonus (CGT vs IT)
- company1 - cautiously optimistic will get paid in 2021
- company2 - much more speculative high-tech company, dependant on a buyout

I've also invested in various EIIS from 2017 to present.

Best to spread your risks around the place.

westgolf · 23-12-2020 9:40pm

sector_000 wrote: »

Coming a bit late to this thread...

I invested in two BES (precursor to EIIS):
- 2009 - 5~6 different sub-investments.... got all the tax relief, but only got 75% of my gross money back (so far!).... hit by GFC. Might get another ~10% more.
- 2011 - windfarms, good, paid ~14% bonus (plus all the tax benefits), took 6 years from start to payout

EIIS investments:
- 2012 - windfarm - all good
- 2013 - windfarm - all good
- 2014 - windfarm - all good
- 2015 - windfarm 1 & 2 - all good
- distillery - company screwed up tax relief rules - but expect to get a reasonable payout in H1'2021
- fund - invested into 5 different sub-investments - however, maturity definitely delayed...
and I believe some impairment is likely due to Covid
- 2016 - distillery - expect to mature good - offered an election to defer maturity till 2022 to optimize tax treatment of bonus (CGT vs IT)
- company1 - cautiously optimistic will get paid in 2021
- company2 - much more speculative high-tech company, dependant on a buyout

I've also invested in various EIIS from 2017 to present.

Best to spread your risks around the place.

Well done on such a comphrensive spread. Did you use someone like Davy's or was it D.I.Y ?

One More Toy · 23-12-2020 9:56pm

sector_000 wrote: »

Coming a bit late to this thread...

I invested in two BES (precursor to EIIS):
- 2009 - 5~6 different sub-investments.... got all the tax relief, but only got 75% of my gross money back (so far!).... hit by GFC. Might get another ~10% more.
- 2011 - windfarms, good, paid ~14% bonus (plus all the tax benefits), took 6 years from start to payout

EIIS investments:
- 2012 - windfarm - all good
- 2013 - windfarm - all good
- 2014 - windfarm - all good
- 2015 - windfarm 1 & 2 - all good
- distillery - company screwed up tax relief rules - but expect to get a reasonable payout in H1'2021
- fund - invested into 5 different sub-investments - however, maturity definitely delayed...
and I believe some impairment is likely due to Covid
- 2016 - distillery - expect to mature good - offered an election to defer maturity till 2022 to optimize tax treatment of bonus (CGT vs IT)
- company1 - cautiously optimistic will get paid in 2021
- company2 - much more speculative high-tech company, dependant on a buyout

I've also invested in various EIIS from 2017 to present.

Best to spread your risks around the place.

Where do you find the offerings mostly? Would you say that they are more geared towards the end of the year?

sector_000 · 23-12-2020 10:41pm

One More Toy wrote: »

Where do you find the offerings mostly? Would you say that they are more geared towards the end of the year?

westgolf wrote: »

Well done on such a comphrensive spread. Did you use someone like Davy's or was it D.I.Y ?

Most offerings typically crop up in Q4.

My sources have been:
Cantor Fitzgerald
Goodbody
McKeogh Gallagher Ryan
there may have been one or two minor directs

I view them as a complement to public stock market investing and to pension investments.
Think of it as private equity with the upside being from tax relief.

caviardreams · 27-12-2020 12:37pm

A couple still advertised in Business Post today closing 31st Dec - wildatlantichealth.com with a 28% return over 4 years (+ tax relief obviously) - higher than the typical return

Also dairy concepts Irl still advertising

One More Toy · 27-12-2020 1:24pm

caviardreams wrote: »

A couple still advertised in Business Post today closing 31st Dec - wildatlantichealth.com with a 28% return over 4 years (+ tax relief obviously) - higher than the typical return

Also dairy concepts Irl still advertising

Any wind farms by any chance? Thanks

caviardreams · 27-12-2020 2:36pm

One More Toy wrote: »

Any wind farms by any chance? Thanks

Not that I spotted but there isn't a section or anything, they are just adverts

Cute Hoor · 27-12-2020 8:09pm

One More Toy wrote: »

Any wind farms by any chance? Thanks

I haven't seen any windfarms since 2016

One More Toy · 27-12-2020 8:12pm

Cute Hoor wrote: »

I haven't seen any windfarms since 2016

Neither have I unfortunately

rebelle · 22-01-2021 3:15pm

Cute Hoor wrote: »

I will try to give a simple example of how it works.

You invest €10,000 in an EIIS scheme in November/December 2020 - it is important that this €10,000 is 2020 income that has been taxed at 40%.
You do your tax returns for 2020 in January 2021 or whenever you can, and you will be allowed the first 30% tax relief - so you will get €3,000 back from Revenue.
When you are doing your 2024 tax returns you will be allowed the additional 10% tax relief - so you will get a further €1,000 back from Revenue.

I made a €10,000 investment in June 2020. I had been told that I would get 40% relief in 2021.

I did my 2020 return earlier this week and it was processed really quickly. Revenue advised that I would get €3,000 so I queried the other €1,000. They have said the additional refund will be given.

The problem seems to be one of the questions on the return is to state what 3/4 of the amount invested is, which I believe isn't relevant if your investment is in 2020.

Cute Hoor · 22-01-2021 4:22pm

rebelle wrote: »

I made a €10,000 investment in June 2020. I had been told that I would get 40% relief in 2021.

I did my 2020 return earlier this week and it was processed really quickly. Revenue advised that I would get €3,000 so I queried the other €1,000. They have said the additional refund will be given.

The problem seems to be one of the questions on the return is to state what 3/4 of the amount invested is, which I believe isn't relevant if your investment is in 2020.

You were told wrong unfortunately, you get the first 30% tax relief in the year of investment, in your case 30% in 2020

sector_000 · 22-01-2021 4:29pm

Cute Hoor wrote: »

You were told wrong unfortunately, you get the first 30% tax relief in the year of investment, in your case 30% in 2020

I'm not sure you're correct there.

EIIS scheme changed around Oct 2019.... from then on all the schemes give the full 40% tax relief upfront (well, as soon as the company self-certifies).

I suspect that rebelle entered incorrect info on the Form11.
I did my 2019 taxes a few months back and had several different EIIS investments to report on covering:
- 10% relief (old schemes, final relief)
- 30% relief (old schemes, initial relief)
- 40% relief (new schemes, full relief upfront)
All processed 100% accurately by Revenue.

Use ros.ie to iterate and see the effect of the various EIIS when you enter them.

rebelle · 22-01-2021 4:44pm

Cute Hoor wrote: »

You were told wrong unfortunately, you get the first 30% tax relief in the year of investment, in your case 30% in 2020

Happily the info is correct. Revenue have told me that I am due a further refund.

From Revenue.ie

You can claim tax relief on your investment when certain conditions are met. For shares issued up to and including 8 October 2019, the relief is split into two tranches:

thirty fortieths (30/40) in the year of investment
ten fortieths (10/40) in the fourth year after the initial investment.
For shares issued after 8 October 2019, the relief is available in full in the year of the investment.

Cute Hoor · 22-01-2021 5:27pm

rebelle wrote: »

Happily the info is correct. Revenue have told me that I am due a further refund.

From Revenue.ie

You can claim tax relief on your investment when certain conditions are met. For shares issued up to and including 8 October 2019, the relief is split into two tranches:

thirty fortieths (30/40) in the year of investment
ten fortieths (10/40) in the fourth year after the initial investment.
For shares issued after 8 October 2019, the relief is available in full in the year of the investment.

Ah OK, rules have changed obviously, apologies

rebelle · 22-01-2021 8:03pm

Cute Hoor wrote: »

Ah OK, rules have changed obviously, apologies

No need to apologise at all, I got great info from you on this thread

duffysfarm · 23-01-2021 9:29am

invested in the great northern distillery in 2016 and just got word back yesterday that it is maturing this month with a decent return - up on 12%. Was going to invest in one of the other distilleries before Christmas but it was bad timing for me.
Its a good scheme overall and its a pity its not used more by companies

Jim2007 · 23-01-2021 10:39am

duffysfarm wrote: »

invested in the great northern distillery in 2016 and just got word back yesterday that it is maturing this month with a decent return - up on 12%. Was going to invest in one of the other distilleries before Christmas but it was bad timing for me.
Its a good scheme overall and its a pity its not used more by companies

The annualized return on the S&P 500 over the same period was about 14.5% and the total return was 96%.

If you want to invest in a distillery that is one thing. But if you want to accumulate wealth, it was a lousy scheme in which you took on significantly more risk than required and achieved a poor rate of return in doing so.

People need to track and benchmark performance to know how they are doing.

duffysfarm · 23-01-2021 11:12am

Thanks for the reply which is a little off topic imo, i thought this thread was about the EII scheme and not american shares. The main object of the eii scheme is not to achieve a significant return but to reduce your tax liability of which there are not many ways to legally do and investing in american shares is not one way that this can be done.

The rate of 12% does not include the tax relief of 40%. When you add the two together i think it was a decent return.

Is the 96% you refer to below before or after tax?

My investment was in an asset backed investment, in a company less than 30 minutes from where i live and where i know people who work there. There is still risk attached but not as risky as shares in america which to be honest as much as i admire it is a bit of basket case at the moment. I would not like to invest any of my money there right now.

The s&p outperformed everyones expectations and if i had invested in it and achieved that kind of return i would be very happy but i wouldnt think i was some gordon gecko or warren buffet investor. Its a bubble thats going to burse.

Jim2007 wrote: »

The annualized return on the S&P 500 over the same period was about 14.5% and the total return was 96%.

If you want to invest in a distillery that is one thing. But if you want to accumulate wealth, it was a lousy scheme in which you took on significantly more risk than required and achieved a poor rate of return in doing so.

People need to track and benchmark performance to know how they are doing.

alanceltic · 23-01-2021 12:12pm

Excellent post above. The EIIS scheme needs yo be looked at first and foremost as a tax reduction measure.

Any return on capital calculations need go held up against the risk/reward of the capital that you are investing

Show me any other financial investment that will yield an upfront 40% return that is guaranteed (assuming of course the scheme is compliant with their Revenue submission). There is no doubt that there are other products that will promise higher returns but this will be against a higher risk profile. Its far too easy to get swept away with what seems like an irrational market at present and for some the EIIS is a compelling product for those who want a reasonable return where capital preservation is an important factor.

Jim2007 · 23-01-2021 1:05pm

The rate of 12% does not include the tax relief of 40%. When you add the two together i think it was a decent return.

Is the 96% you refer to below before or after tax?

No matter how you mix it, it will not come up to almost doubling your income at a lower risk.

Nermal · 23-01-2021 1:32pm

Jim2007 wrote: »

The annualized return on the S&P 500 over the same period was about 14.5% and the total return was 96%.

If you want to invest in a distillery that is one thing. But if you want to accumulate wealth, it was a lousy scheme in which you took on significantly more risk than required and achieved a poor rate of return in doing so.

€100 invested in the EIIS scheme referred to, with a 12% PA return, less 33% CGT plus the 40% relief returns €191.

€100 in the S&P 500 with a total return of 96% over the same period, taxed at 41% returns €157.

Take a moment to fire up Excel next time before you post.

duffysfarm · 23-01-2021 2:12pm

True, but this thread is on EII. If you want to start blowing about how good American shares are then go ahead and start a thread on it

Jim2007 wrote: »

No matter how you mix it, it will not come up to almost doubling your income at a lower risk.

Jim2007 · 23-01-2021 3:32pm

Nermal wrote: »

€100 invested in the EIIS scheme referred to, with a 12% PA return, less 33% CGT plus the 40% relief returns €191.

€100 in the S&P 500 with a total return of 96% over the same period, taxed at 41% returns €157.

Take a moment to fire up Excel next time before you post.

The OP said 12% not PA.....

Jim2007 · 23-01-2021 3:37pm

duffysfarm wrote: »

True, but this thread is on EII. If you want to start blowing about how good American shares are then go ahead and start a thread on it

And this is forum on investing.... and most of the companies in the S&P are multi nationals and the index is widely available.

duffysfarm · 23-01-2021 3:42pm

I am not the op mr know it all

Jim2007 wrote: »

The OP said 12% not PA.....

Water John · 23-01-2021 4:36pm

The ROI on an EII are usually a total for the duration not an annualised figure. So 40 tax relief + 12% (in this case), total IWT. Don't think anyone would have forecast such a long bull run on the stock market.

Has anyone invested in an EII project/scheme?

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