Mass unmarked grave for 800 babies in Tuam

eire4 · 04-03-2021 7:53pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

Power and money its all they care about. They no more believe in God than you or I

Sadly you hit the proverbial nail on the head there. All about power and money. They need to be held to account both financially and legally unlike the 2002 sweetheart deal they got that capped the financial liability they faced for the child abuse.

end of the road · 04-03-2021 8:10pm

aloyisious wrote: »

Getting payment from the adoptive parents as well, it seemed, while pressing the Govt for funding at the same time claiming the order was short of funds.

along with getting money from the birth mothers.

Hotblack Desiato · 15-04-2021 1:10pm

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/mother-and-baby-homes-it-may-be-impossible-to-identify-all-remains-1.4537604

The committee on children and equality is examining a Bill to legislate for the examination and possible exhumation of mass graves at mother and baby homes, such as at Tuam in Co Galway and Bessborough in Co Cork.

...

She said it was “essential that there be no further prevarication, no further procrastination, and no further obfuscation of the truth and that which occurred at Tuam, and, for that matter, every other mother and baby home across the country”.

I'm reminded of the 1990s in Northern Ireland. "Talks about talks". Or this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YawagQ6lLrA

Meanwhile more and more nuns who could be criminally implicated die peacefully in their beds - and sadly, and less peacefully, victims of their crimes also, without ever knowing what happened to their child, sibling or parent. (We're back to NI again...

)

Hotblack Desiato · 15-04-2021 1:14pm

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/remains-of-19-women-who-died-at-mother-and-baby-home-remain-missing-1.4537588

The remains of 19 women who died at Bessborough mother and baby home in Cork, run by the Congregation of the Sacred Hearts of Jesus and Mary, remain missing, politicians were told.

The Oireachtas Committee on Children and Equality is examining proposed legislation to provide for the examination and possible excavation of burial sites in institutions once run by religious orders.

In all, 31 women died at the Cork city mother and babies’ home between 1922 and 1998, in addition to more than 900 babies, including 102 babies who died there during the course of 1944 alone.

The Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby Homes found death registration records for 29 of the women; just 12 burial records in St Finbarr’s cemetery have been found.

“Where are the other 19?” asked Martin Parfrey, who was adopted from Bessborough. “There could be adults buried indiscriminately around Bessborough as well [as those of 836 babies].”

The subject of the missing bodies was raised during committee discussions on the “urgency” to halt a proposed housing development, including apartments, on the Bessborough lands.

The apartments, planned for part of the site identified in a 1949 map as “children’s burial ground”, are the subject of an emergency oral hearing before An Bord Pleanála next week.

Mr Palfrey, founder of the Know Your Own support group for adopted people, said all burial grounds at mother and baby homes should be “taken over by the State” and preserved.

...

Peter Mulryan, who suffered physical and emotional abuse when boarded out from the Tuam mother and baby home, and who hopes his sister survived the institution, said mothers and infants’ remains should be returned to families.

“A memorial garden is not enough,” he said. Remains should not be left where they are “a second longer”, he said, calling on the State to gather DNA samples from bereaved families immediately.

“It’s been going on seven years, highlighted and highlighted and we’re no further on, he said, adding the lack of progress “by the government and State” has been “inhumane”.

“I would like to know where my sister is at this moment. I’m three years now looking for records of my sister. Every time I go to bed at night I think of her. Is she dead or alive? I do not know.

Neyite · 15-04-2021 5:32pm

They are mass graves. In other parts of the world when those are discovered they do more than just stick a statue up and plant a few flowers.

There's a distinct lack of respect for the dead here. We know that these women and children were treated with lack of respect when they lived, and their remains treated with a lack of respect when they died, but surely if we don't exhume, take DNA, identify them, sort and re-interr their remains in a proper grave giving them the respect they are long overdue, then we are just as bad as those we say we condemn.

robindch · 17-04-2021 5:04pm

In better news, the government has taken a first tentative step in the direction of commencing the start of an initial, opening dialog with the religious institutions concerning the possibility that the institutions might wish, at some point, to consider thinking about whether they would be minded to start an process which could lead, in time, to developing a sufficient degree of internal support that they could furnish some form of contribution of some kind to redress for the human desolation they oversaw.

This should, in no way, sound the starting gun for a race in which the religious institutions concerned make strenuous efforts to stuff every asset they control into beneficial trusts to protect the assets from state sequestration.

Like happened the last time.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/mother-and-baby-homes-government-wants-swift-redress-from-churches-1.4539791

Irish Times wrote:

The Minister made clear in those letters that he was seeking money, telling church leaders they may wish to consider “making a contribution to the financial costs” of a redress scheme and other measures. No church figure said in reply that they would not contribute, according to a person familiar with the file, but most did not say whether they would.

Hotblack Desiato · 17-04-2021 6:11pm

You must be a fan of Yes, Minister Robindch!

The whole disgraceful thing is so depressing. What's done is done, but what has been done or rather not done since is inexcusable.

The taxpayer getting soaked for a billion+ while the church walks away or makes only a token contribution is the icing on the cake

Cabaal · 21-04-2021 9:52pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

The taxpayer getting soaked for a billion+ while the church walks away or makes only a token contribution is the icing on the cake

But they might say a mass for free at the memorial built-in memory of their crimes, so it'll be grand

Hotblack Desiato · 03-06-2021 10:08pm

This is an utter disgrace.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2021/0603/1225774-mother-and-baby-homes-ireland/

Government and Opposition parties have called for representatives of the Mother and Baby Homes Commission to "clarify" its treatment of the personal accounts of survivors in its final report by coming before an Oireachtas committee.

Yesterday, a member of the Commission suggested at an Oxford University seminar that threats of legal action had resulted in the testimony of survivors being excluded from the final report, published earlier this year.

This afternoon, Minister for Children and Youth Affairs Roderic O'Gorman said the members of the Commission need to "urgently clarify" its treatment of the personal accounts of survivors of the homes.

Professor Mary Daly spoke to an online Oxford seminar in Irish History yesterday, and said the Commission was limited in what it could do due to the terms of reference it had to operate under.

She confirmed that the evidence provided by 550 survivors to the confidential committee was discounted, saying that the report "reads as realistic".

She argued that the main report of the commission had to meet robust legal standards of evidence.

There were 550 testimonies to the confidential committee and 19 in front of the commission.

Speaking on RTÉ's News at One, Minister O'Gorman said clarification would help to address the anger and uncertainty felt by survivors, adding it was not appropriate for the first public comments on the report to be made to a restricted academic event.

He said that "it is necessary at this point for them to come before the Oireachtas committee".

Mr O'Gorman also said it was not appropriate that survivors would hear through second hand reports from an academic event about how their personal accounts were treated, as this has always been an issue of concern for them.

He said given this upset and the fact the commissioners have been deeply involved in this matter for five years he is hopeful and inviting them to "act in a compassionate way" and explain and clarify the reasons the testimonies were excluded from the final report.

The minister said that the commission's terms of reference were "quite clear that the material...from personal accounts could be taken into account by commissioners to the extent that they believed was appropriate".

He said he has always said "that it is that chapter [containing personal accounts] for me that stands out the most and is the most powerful indictment of what was happening in these institutions".

He said this is why it is so important that these key points are explored and clarified in an "appropriate place like the Oireachtas committee".

Minister O'Gorman also said a redress scheme for survivors of mother-and-baby homes will be put in place in the coming week.

He said the approach that Commissions of Investigation take to sensitive issues should make "the voice and views of the survivors absolutely central" and this is the way these commissions should take place in the future.

Minister O'Gorman said the Government is committed to providing a Records and Memorialisation Centre and will progress with birth information and tracing legislation.

He said people can access their own files and 170 applications have already been made for information.

Speaking on the same programme, the chair of the Oireachtas Committee on Children said she was "absolutely shocked" over yesterday's events.

Kathleen Funchion said the decision by a commission member to speak about the report was "extremely disrespectful and insulting to survivors".

She said Prof Daly "chose to speak at a forum about a report that was about their lives and yet she refused to come before the committee or engage in a public forum with survivors".

Ms Funchion said that without key questions being answered or amended in some way the report of the Commission cannot be stood over in its current form and the committee members all feel very strongly about the issue and that their invitation to appear before the committee was "snubbed".

In February, Commission chair Ms Justice Yvonne Murphy declined to appear before the committee where members had hoped to ask her about the methodology of the report, some of the language used in it and claims that some of its conclusions contradicted evidence given by survivors.

Independent TD for Galway West Catherine Connolly has added to strong criticism from cabinet members, opposition leaders, and survivors following reports by Professor Mary Daly that testimonies from hundreds of women were excluded from the final report into the Mother and Baby Homes due to threats of legal action.

"It is extraordinary that one of the commissioners chose to talk about this, to a college, a privileged one, in this manner but yet all three commissioners refused to come before an Oireachtas Committee. That was the choice that was made."

Speaking on RTÉ's Drivetime Deputy Connolly called for Prof Mary Daly to explain the nature of the alleged threats that were made to the commission, and in what manner these alleged threats were conveyed.

She also called for all correspondence between the government and the commission to be published.

"What contact was made with the government about these?"

Deputy Connolly said Prof Daly has been "helpful".

"She has highlighted that the commission came under extraordinary pressure."

"How was that done and how did it change the way they wrote the report?"

When asked if commissioners could be made to come before the committee, considering there is no legal obligation to do so, Independent TD Catherine Connolly said there is "a higher moral law" than a legal obligation.

She said those who appeared before the confidential committee expected to be heard and treated with dignity and respect, and that what they said would be taken into account.

That did not happen, she said, and there is the "mystery of the disappearing and reappering" recordings of the testimonies.

She said this was only clarified because of "serious pressure" within the Dáil and from the survivors themselves, and people are still facing "enormous obstacles" to get information.

"We need to reflect on where we're at", she said.

Seminar address on mother-and-baby homes 'disrespectful'

Tánaiste Leo Varadkar has said it was disrespectful to both the Oireachtas, and the survivors of mother-and-baby homes, for a member of the commission to speak about its report for the first time to an academic symposium.

Speaking during Leaders' Questions in the Dáil this afternoon, Mr Varadkar said it was necessary "without delay" for the commission members to come before the Oireachtas Committee on Children to explain how they arrived at their conclusions and have a "similar engagement" with survivor groups.

He said this has occurred previously with both the McAleese and Scally reports, adding: "I can see no excuse or no valid reason for them not to do so, without delay."

He was replying to Labour leader Alan Kelly, who said the "devastating revelations" from Prof Daly meant that the commission's report was "not valid; it is not a historical record; it is not accurate".

The Tipperary TD accused Prof Daly of retraumatising the survivors by her actions.

He said that she and other commission members had refused to come before committee, but was prepared to speak about the report at an academic symposium in England.

Deputy Kelly said the commission's report was "fundamentally flawed" and asked if the Government would repudiate the document as called for by some academics.

The Tánaiste said he wanted to be careful in his remarks as he knew "a lot of survivors are very upset" but said what happened "wasn't acceptable" and that was "compounded" by the academic seminar.

Mr Kelly said it was now clear that evidence "given by women who went through so much" was not used, did not form part of the commission's recommendations and therefore, he asked, was the Government going to put forward proposals for a new commission.

He said all of the survivors deserve it.

Mr Varadkar said the next step was for the commission to clarify how it used evidence from survivors.

Meanwhile, a spokesperson for the Taoiseach has said "it would be very helpful, and the correct thing to do" for the members of the Mother and Baby Home Commission to engage with the Oireachtas and to "outline their perspectives on the inquiry".

They added that "survivors must be the number one priority".

The spokesperson also said: "The Government is committed to following through on the recommendations of the report, in particular with the Information Tracing Bill, the Memorial Centre, the protection of records and redress."

Mother and Baby Home Commission urged to address Oireachtas over report

The Minister for Further and Higher Education has called for the authors of the report to address the Oireachtas in relation to their findings.

Simon Harris said not giving the survivors of mother-and-baby homes, their families and communities, the opportunity to hear from them in public, unintentionally "added insult to injury".

Speaking on RTÉ's Morning Ireland, he said it would be helpful to have a dialogue and explain their findings as part of the healing process and the sharing of information.

Mr Harris said "people have every right to speak in Oxford, but if they can find the time to speak in Oxford I hope they can find the time to speak in the Oireachtas".

He said there may be "more work to do" and if you undertake to do a body of work "you should be willing to explain how you did that" in a public forum.

Legal academic and Senior Lecturer at the University of Birmingham Máiréad Enright, who attended the Oxford seminar, said the atmosphere was very testy at times.

Under the Commissions of Investigation Act, according to Ms Enright, the commission had the ability to make general non-individual finding of facts and therefore could accept all information made available to them.

She said that when she read the final report, which was published earlier this year, she questioned why that was not done and said she wondered if it was because those who went before the confidential committee did not speak under oath.

This was confirmed at yesterday's event, she said.

eire4 · 04-06-2021 8:27pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

This is an utter disgrace.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2021/0603/1225774-mother-and-baby-homes-ireland/

The hubris of this so called commissioner is astounding. She has show all the empathy of a sociopath.

aloyisious · 05-06-2021 12:12am

I can only hope that some media source uncovers and reveals the names and identities of the persons who delivered the message to the Prof and her colleagues that their witnesses would face rigorous cross-examination if they made statements under oath before the commission. That message sounds like the type usually given to victims of a horrendous crime when it came to giving evidence in court against the person responsible.

Yellow_Fern · 06-06-2021 9:25am

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

This is an utter disgrace.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2021/0603/1225774-mother-and-baby-homes-ireland/

I dont thinks disgrace. For better or worse it is basically just how other Commissions worked.

Yellow_Fern · 06-06-2021 9:28am

eire4 wrote: »

The hubris of this so called commissioner is astounding. She has show all the empathy of a sociopath.

It's called academic freedom

Bannasidhe · 06-06-2021 9:41am

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

It's called academic freedom

No. It isn't.

It's called destroying any shred of academic credibility and has resulted in hundreds of her colleagues across academia, in particular professional historians, signing an open letter decrying the methodology used by the Commission.

Professor Daly's reputation as a historian lies in tatters.

robindch · 06-06-2021 10:30am

Canada seems to be rerunning the Irish Mother and Baby home scandal - especially with regard to one home for "indigenous" children where 215 corpses were found, and the religious concerned are stone-walling everybody:

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/canada/identifying-childrens-remains-at-b-c-residential-school-stalled-by-lack-of-records/wcm/5c77fbfe-df97-4877-ac1c-96e7f0eb35f1

Ottawa Citizen wrote:

VANCOUVER — A lack of access to records and first-hand data would hinder the ability to identify the remains of 215 children found at a former residential school in Kamloops, says the director of the Indian Residential School History and Dialogue Centre at the University of British Columbia. Mary Ellen Turpel-Lafond said the federal government and churches have fought over making the school records available to groups working to identify victims of the residential school system for more than 20 years.

“It’s just so frustrating, it’s so frustrating to the communities, so frustrating to the families and it’s something the Truth and Reconciliation Commission fought for every single year of its existence,” she said in an interview. The response from politicians and church officials that the discovery is “shocking” rings hollow, she said, as Indigenous people have tried to raise awareness about the issue for years.

Indigenous children from 36 communities across B.C.’s Interior are recorded as having attended the school, while data collected by the history and dialogue centre lists 38 additional communities from where children were sent to the school between 1943 and 1952. Turpel-Lafond, a lawyer and former judge who is of Cree and Scottish descent, said she’s also heard anecdotal evidence of children from Alberta and Yukon attending the school, which had a peak enrolment of up to 500 students in the 1950s. It was operated by the Catholic Church from 1890 to 1969 as a residential school before it was taken over by the federal government to serve as a local day school until 1978.

The Tk’emlups te Secwepemc First Nation said last week that the remains of the 215 children were found by a ground-penetrating radar specialist. The work to identify the remains would have to compare sources including oral history, church records, records from local authorities and lists of children who may have returned home to their respective communities in one year but not the next, Turpel-Lafond said. “To me, the dead children themselves in this Kamloops school, and others, have human rights,” she said. “We have an obligation to them to provide respect for the deceased and take practical steps to address the indignity that might’ve been done to them and their bodies.” The Truth and Reconciliation Commission has records of 51 children dying at the school.

First Nations communities are still battling the federal government and Catholic Church in court to access school records, Turpel-Lafond said. The Missionary Oblates of Mary Immaculate ran about 47 per cent of Canada’s residential schools, including the one in Kamloops. The Oblates have refused to release their records to help identify the remains found and did not return a request for comment on the matter. Father Ken Thorson, the provincial superior of the Oblates, said in a statement earlier this week that the order is growing into a “deepening awareness” of the harm to Indigenous people caused by colonization and the role it played. Archbishop J. Michael Miller of the Vancouver archdiocese said Catholic organizations should release their records. “We will be fully transparent with our archives and records regarding all residential schools, and strongly urge all other Catholic and government organizations to do the same,” he said in a statement on Wednesday.

Even if that information was available, a forensic human identification expert said the community faces further hurdles in finding relevant DNA comparisons to identify the victims where direct descendants are no longer alive. Megan Bassendale, the director of the Vancouver-based company Forensic Guardians International, said the process of DNA analysis can take time. “It’s long, it’s expensive and it has to be done really well the first time. If you lose the trust of the families, then it’s over,” said Bassendale, who previously worked to help identify remains found in mass grave sites in former republics of the Soviet Union.

Finding close DNA data, such as a mother or father of the victim, or identifying features from health and dental records may be hard at a site that operated for decades, she added. Bassendale said it may require scientists to test DNA from a mother and father’s family lines to narrow down who the person could be, which is a more complex process. However, she is hopeful identities can be found. “We know how to do this; it’s not new. It’s not even uncommon,” Bassendale said. “It’s uncommon for Canada.” Turpel-Lafond said she’s optimistic answers can be found, if groups co-operate. “Can it be done? Yes,” she said. “I’m absolutely confident if we had access to all of the records, government records, oral history and we have people co-operating.”

TheChizler · 06-06-2021 12:05pm

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

I dont thinks disgrace. For better or worse it is basically just how other Commissions worked.

I might be vastly oversimplifying this, or have it totally backwards, but isn't a commission used to make findings of indisputable fact, so testimony that isn't matched by physical evidence is given a lower weighting than say a tribunal which can make findings relating to likelyhood which would prioritise testimony? An advantage of a commission being less time tied up in legal matters since physical evidence is easier to defend?

Yellow_Fern · 06-06-2021 12:24pm

TheChizler wrote: »

I might be vastly oversimplifying this, or have it totally backwards, but isn't a commission used to make findings of indisputable fact, so testimony that isn't matched by physical evidence is given a lower weighting than say a tribunal which can make findings relating to likelyhood which would prioritise testimony? An advantage of a commission being less time tied up in legal matters since physical evidence is easier to defend?

I am not sure. Perhaps. I thought it was tribunals that found indisputable fact. The M & B report published an awful lot directly from witnesses that cant be verified either way.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

No. It isn't.

Well of all people she should have academic freedom. Of course academics dont really have true academic freedom.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

No. It isn't.

It's called destroying any shred of academic credibility and has resulted in hundreds of her colleagues across academia, in particular professional historians, signing an open letter decrying the methodology used by the Commission.

Professor Daly's reputation as a historian lies in tatters.

If a Commission or garda investigation doesn't believe your testimony, there is no right to know why they came to that view. Destroying her academic reputation? I don't think so. Can you spell out what you mean?

Bannasidhe · 06-06-2021 12:51pm

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

If a Commission or garda investigation doesn't believe your testimony, there is no right to know why they came to that view. Destroying her academic reputation? I don't think so. Can you spell out what you mean?

A Commission and a Garda investigation are two very different things so stop trying to make a false equivalence.

Given that Prof Daly has admitted that the testimony wasn't even considered as a) it would take too long, b) be impossible to cross check, and c)fear of threats of legal action from religious orders we know exactly what happened.

The Commission came in under budget - there was no reason more people with experience couldn't have been employed, there are post-doc researchers crying out for employment and cross checking information is precisely their skill set.

Not one historian with expertise in the methodology of oral testimonies was consulted. They are literally the experts in how oral testimonies - aka historical witness statements - should be dealt with.

As for threating legal action - bedfellow of forcing people to sign non-disclosure agreements another tactic employed by the 'charitable' orders. They say sorry but threaten to sue.

If you think Prof Daly's reputation is intact it appears you do not understand how Academia works. No doctoral candidate will want her name associated with them, serious scholarly publications will be reluctant to publish her work as her methodology has been seen to be flawed. That's the two must haves in the academic world - Phd students and publications.

Yellow_Fern · 06-06-2021 1:10pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

A Commission and a Garda investigation are two very different things so stop trying to make a false equivalence.

The same applies.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

fear of threats of legal action from religious orders we know exactly what happened.

Daly didnt say who the treats where from.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

The Commission came in under budget - there was no reason more people with experience couldn't have been employed, there are post-doc researchers crying out for employment and cross checking information is precisely their skill set.

Not one historian with expertise in the methodology of oral testimonies was consulted. They are literally the experts in how oral testimonies - aka historical witness statements - should be dealt with.

The whole point was to have a speedy investigation while people are still alive.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

If you think Prof Daly's reputation is intact it appears you do not understand how Academia works. No doctoral candidate will want her name associated with them, .

As someone in Academia I couldn't disagree more. Anyway, even if it was true, it doesn't matter, she has been president of the Royal academy. She has done it all. She is 72. Her university might not even allow her to supervise any more.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

serious scholarly publications will be reluctant to publish her work as her methodology has been seen to be flawed. That's the two must haves in the academic world - Phd students and publications.

If she was younger and publishing a lot in recent years, I am willing to wager you 150 Euro that Daly will have future publications accepted but she might not be publishing any more anyway.

eire4 · 06-06-2021 7:08pm

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

It's called academic freedom

I will again restate the hubris of Professor Daly is astounding and she has shown all the empathy to the vitcims of the mother and baby "homes" of a sociopath. A commission that was supposed to get to the truth has actually made things worse. She should be ashamed of herself and what she and her colleagues have done.

Cabaal · 06-06-2021 10:26pm

robindch wrote: »

Canada seems to be rerunning the Irish Mother and Baby home scandal - especially with regard to one home for "indigenous" children where 215 corpses were found, and the religious concerned are stone-walling everybody:

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/canada/identifying-childrens-remains-at-b-c-residential-school-stalled-by-lack-of-records/wcm/5c77fbfe-df97-4877-ac1c-96e7f0eb35f1

Death and suffering where ever the catholic church goes. It goes hand in hand with them calling people sinners.

Yet there are plenty that will excuse this death cult whenever possible.

Bannasidhe · 07-06-2021 4:50pm

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

The same applies.

Daly didnt say who the treats where from.

The whole point was to have a speedy investigation while people are still alive.

As someone in Academia I couldn't disagree more. Anyway, even if it was true, it doesn't matter, she has been president of the Royal academy. She has done it all. She is 72. Her university might not even allow her to supervise any more.
If she was younger and publishing a lot in recent years, I am willing to wager you 150 Euro that Daly will have future publications accepted but she might not be publishing any more anyway.

The Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby Homes experienced “heavy pushback” from religious orders and was separately threatened with legal action at one stage, one of the members of the Commission has said.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/mother-and-baby-homes-commission-saw-heavy-pushback-from-religious-orders-1.4582405

THE LEGAL APPROACH of the Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby Homes appears to have been heavily influenced by the lasting impact of the Ryan Commission into child abuse, an expert has said.

Máiréad Enright, a human rights lawyer, said that the threat of legal action from religious orders appears to have heavily influenced the approach of the commissioners in the more recent inquiry.

Indeed Professor Mary Daly, one of three commissioners involved, yesterday told an online event that “looming” legal threats impacted the commission’s work.

https://www.thejournal.ie/mother-and-baby-home-commission-legal-approach-5456553-Jun2021/

She said any displeasure that people may have at the report “needs to be seen in the light of the rules and regulations under which we operated”. At one stage she said there was a threat of legal action against the commission during the course of its work and that it had to be “ultra-careful”.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/mother-and-baby-homes-what-did-prof-mary-daly-tell-the-oxford-seminar-1.4583204

Indeed, she inferred it. Enright stated it. Enright was also at pains to say one cannot blame a historian for bad legal decisions - that lies with the two former judges.

For anyone interested in a detailed review of the Commission:

https://thedublinreview.com/article/the-commission-and-the-survivors/

Yellow_Fern · 07-06-2021 6:28pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/mother-and-baby-homes-commission-saw-heavy-pushback-from-religious-orders-1.4582405

https://www.thejournal.ie/mother-and-baby-home-commission-legal-approach-5456553-Jun2021/

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/mother-and-baby-homes-what-did-prof-mary-daly-tell-the-oxford-seminar-1.4583204

Indeed, she inferred it. Enright stated it. Enright was also at pains to say one cannot blame a historian for bad legal decisions - that lies with the two former judges.

For anyone interested in a detailed review of the Commission:

https://thedublinreview.com/article/the-commission-and-the-survivors/

The Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby Homes experienced “heavy pushback” from religious orders and was separately threatened with legal action at one stage, one of the members of the Commission has said.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/mother-and-baby-homes-commission-saw-heavy-pushback-from-religious-orders-1.4582405

If you pares that carefully, one realises that they don't' say if it is the Orders who threatened legal action. I'd love to know who it was and on what grounds. But it is good there was some pushback. There was a lot and is a lot of misconceptions being circulated.

eire4 wrote: »

I will again restate the hubris of Professor Daly is astounding and she has shown all the empathy to the vitcims of the mother and baby "homes" of a sociopath. A commission that was supposed to get to the truth has actually made things worse. She should be ashamed of herself and what she and her colleagues have done.

To me it sounds like any investigator commenting on an old case.

Bannasidhe · 07-06-2021 7:15pm

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

But it is good there was some pushback. There was a lot and is a lot of misconceptions being circulated.

And this is where you and I will never see eye to eye.

It is not good that the religious orders - who claim to be charitable and acting in good faith - "push back" - what would have been good is if they truly repented, acknowledged their wrong doing, and openly provided every shed of information they have. A Collective Mea Culpa has been long lacking.

The misconceptions circulated were the decades of people believing these orders were charitable or acting in good faith.
Thousands of children died in their 'care'.
Many of whom lie in unmarked and unknown graves.

There must be a reckoning.
This commission is not it.

eire4 · 07-06-2021 7:15pm

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/mother-and-baby-homes-commission-saw-heavy-pushback-from-religious-orders-1.4582405

If you pares that carefully, one realises that they don't' say if it is the Orders who threatened legal action. I'd love to know who it was and on what grounds. But it is good there was some pushback. There was a lot and is a lot of misconceptions being circulated.

To me it sounds like any investigator commenting on an old case.

Well I guess then you share similar levels of empathy with Professor Daly so considering what the victims in this case suffered.

Cabaal · 08-06-2021 9:32am

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Thousands of children died in their 'care'.

One can only assume that when the religious orders believed they were taking care of children, that they decided to do it in the mafia sense of "taking care" of them.

The level of repeated deaths in numerous countrys and the manner in which the disposed of the bodies goes way passed being careless or just negligent in looking after the children. They outright just didn't like the children, they look down on them with disgust and hatred and treated them accordingly both in life and death.

I've seen people treat dogs better after death then the religious orders treated human beings.

I find it increasingly disturbing that some Catholics continue to try to excuse these abuses in one way or another.

Yellow_Fern · 08-06-2021 9:44am

Cabaal wrote: »

One can only assume that when the religious orders believed they were taking care of children, that they decided to do it in the mafia sense of "taking care" of them.

The level of repeated deaths in numerous countrys and the manner in which the disposed of the bodies goes way passed being careless or just negligent in looking after the children. They outright just didn't like the children, they look down on them with disgust and hatred and treated them accordingly both in life and death.

I've seen people treat dogs better after death then the religious orders treated human beings.

Do you think people who die in any other institutions were buried better, mental hospitals, prisons, workhouses (which only closed in 1948 in the north)?

Bannasidhe wrote: »

And this is where you and I will never see eye to eye.

It is not good that the religious orders - who claim to be charitable and acting in good faith - "push back" - what would have been good is if they truly repented, acknowledged their wrong doing, and openly provided every shed of information they have. A Collective Mea Culpa has been long lacking.t.

There is no alive who remembers what happened in Tuam about the tanks. People are entitled to be sceptical and probing about that. ANd it turns out the archaeology work disproven some of the media claims.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

The misconceptions circulated were the decades of people believing these orders were charitable or acting in good faith.
Thousands of children died in their 'care'.
Many of whom lie in unmarked and unknown graves.

There must be a reckoning.
This commission is not it.

My great grand parents lie in unknown graves and died in a similar area. Burial records wasnt expected until later. If the homs had a normal death rate you'd still expect 3,000 deaths. What people like to forget is that these homes had publicly appointed doctors who were responsible for health. For some reason no one attributes any blame to them.

Bannasidhe · 08-06-2021 10:50am

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Do you think people who die in any other institutions were buried better, mental hospitals, prisons, workhouses (which only closed in 1948 in the north)?

There is no alive who remembers what happened in Tuam about the tanks. People are entitled to be sceptical and probing about that. ANd it turns out the archaeology work disproven some of the media claims.

My great grand parents lie in unknown graves and died in a similar area. Burial records wasnt expected until later. If the homs had a normal death rate you'd still expect 3,000 deaths. What people like to forget is that these homes had publicly appointed doctors who were responsible for health. For some reason no one attributes any blame to them.

There are none so blind as those who will not see springs to mind.

You are big on making counter-claims, but short on providing evidence which frankly puts your defence (of the indefensible) in the category of "no they didn't because I say they didn't" or sweeping it under the proverbial carpet - "well back in the day..."

If fact I suspect you haven't read all of this thread - if you had you would find a great many posters did provide evidence to support what the survivors said happened in Tuam.

Mark Hamill · 08-06-2021 10:54am

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Do you think people who die in any other institutions were buried better, mental hospitals, prisons, workhouses (which only closed in 1948 in the north)?

Which is an argument that those institutions should be equally held to account as we want the mother and baby homes held to account, not that mother and baby homes get a free pass.

Besides, if we can only expect church run institutions to be as badly run as any other institute, then what good are church run institutions actually for?

Yellow_Fern · 08-06-2021 3:32pm

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Which is an argument that those institutions should be equally held to account as we want the mother and baby homes held to account, not that mother and baby homes get a free pass.

Besides, if we can only expect church run institutions to be as badly run as any other institute, then what good are church run institutions actually for?

I dont think being buried with a simple marker with a degradable marker in 1940s Ireland is a scandal. If bodies are being thrown into a septic tank then yes. I agree some of the homes were very badly run. Tuam and Bessborough come to mind. It is worth mentioning the inadequacies of Tuam is why it was closed. It is worth mentioning these had different management structure, some like Tuam were county homes. Others were religious institutions like Sean Ross. It would be interested to see what impact these structures had on care and how much poor care was driven by individual bad apples.

Hotblack Desiato · 09-06-2021 6:46pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

For anyone interested in a detailed review of the Commission:

https://thedublinreview.com/article/the-commission-and-the-survivors/

An excellent (and maddening) article. The Journal has now republished it here:

https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/catriona-crowe-mother-and-baby-home-commission-report-5461499-Jun2021/

The commission and its report do not have a shred of credibility left.

Yellow_Fern · 09-06-2021 6:52pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

An excellent (and maddening) article. The Journal has now republished it here:

https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/catriona-crowe-mother-and-baby-home-commission-report-5461499-Jun2021/

The commission and its report do not have a shred of credibility left.

She has some good points about record storage. She actually praises many aspects of the report

Mark Hamill · 09-06-2021 8:55pm

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

I dont think being buried with a simple marker with a degradable marker in 1940s Ireland is a scandal. If bodies are being thrown into a septic tank then yes. I agree some of the homes were very badly run. Tuam and Bessborough come to mind. It is worth mentioning the inadequacies of Tuam is why it was closed. It is worth mentioning these had different management structure, some like Tuam were county homes. Others were religious institutions like Sean Ross. It would be interested to see what impact these structures had on care and how much poor care was driven by individual bad apples.

So, wait, you don't actually know if the likes of Tuam where just bad apples or if religious homes in general were badly run, you are just wishing they were? But at the same time claiming they were no worse than anywhere else at the time?

Tuam was only closed in 1961 (after 36 years of operation) it had investigations from as late as 1949 which reported "everything in the home in good order and congratulated the Bon Secour sisters on the excellent condition of their Institution".
, and there have been reports coming from similar homes in other countries (like Canada, for a recent example). These attitudes and inadequacies in these homes were not isolated in occurrence or obstructive to their continued operation.

Yellow_Fern · 09-06-2021 11:41pm

Mark Hamill wrote: »

So, wait, you don't actually know if the likes of Tuam where just bad apples or if religious homes in general were badly run, you are just wishing they were? But at the same time claiming they were no worse than anywhere else at the time?

Tuam was only closed in 1961 (after 36 years of operation) it had investigations from as late as 1949 which reported "everything in the home in good order and congratulated the Bon Secour sisters on the excellent condition of their Institution".
, and there have been reports coming from similar homes in other countries (like Canada, for a recent example). These attitudes and inadequacies in these homes were not isolated in occurrence or obstructive to their continued operation.

We know for certain that Tuam and Bessborough were particularly bad. Tuam was a state home, termed a county home, basically the direct descendant of a workhouse. We know a lot about Tuam, partially as one of the two laywomen who ran it was interviewed on tape in the 1980s. Bessborough was run by order and was a larger affair with a long and complex history but had some very bad management in the war years. Regina Coeli was another religious one it was one that was very well run. Dunboyne was another very run one.

Other famous county homes were Pelletstown, and Kilrush. Other order run homes were Sean Ross, Castlepollard (the Sacred Heart homes).

I am not a doctor, but I feel a lot of the mortality in Tuam and Bessborough was caused avoidable negligence/ and bad apples and the appointed doctors not doing their jobs.

Mark Hamill · 10-06-2021 8:33am

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

We know for certain that Tuam and Bessborough were particularly bad. Tuam was a state home, termed a county home, basically the direct descendant of a workhouse. We know a lot about Tuam, partially as one of the two laywomen who ran it was interviewed on tape in the 1980s. Bessborough was run by order and was a larger affair with a long and complex history but had some very bad management in the war years. Regina Coeli was another religious one it was one that was very well run. Dunboyne was another very run one.

Other famous county homes were Pelletstown, and Kilrush. Other order run homes were Sean Ross, Castlepollard (the Sacred Heart homes).

I am not a doctor, but I feel a lot of the mortality in Tuam and Bessborough was caused avoidable negligence/ and bad apples and the appointed doctors not doing their jobs.

So we have two differently run homes (Tuam and Bessborough) that were terrible, and two homes (Regina Coeli and Dunboyne) that were apparently run well according to you, but you feel that Tuam and Bessbourough where just "bad apples"? Lucky us that we have your feelings to decide the matter.

Unfortunately for your feelings, the Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby Homes reported that Regina Coeli had 743 infant deaths during its operation (13.5% of all the children who went through it from 1930 to 1998 died. For comparison, Irelands overall infant death rate was 9% in 1917 and 4.5% in 1950). In fact, the Commission states of all 18 homes it investigated (including Ard Mhuire in Dunboyne) that there was "appalling level of infant mortality".

All of your posts are filled with the most vacuous of wishful thinking. You are literally presenting your feelings as evidence without any reference to factual evidence I found with all of 10 seconds of googling. And what worse, by doing this, your arguments are inadvertently white washing and excusing for-profit child murder.

smacl · 10-06-2021 10:15am

Mark Hamill wrote: »

All of your posts are filled with the most vacuous of wishful thinking. You are literally presenting your feelings as evidence without any reference to factual evidence I found with all of 10 seconds of googling. And what worse, you are doing it to white wash and excuse for-profit child murder.

Mod warning: Given this is a sensitive topic, it is against the rules of the charter to use emotive terms such as 'murder' in this context unless supported by credible 3rd party sources that state murder took place. I would also ask you to play the ball rather than the man in any comments you make. Any feedback via PM or to the feedback thread only. Thanks for your attention.

aloyisious · 10-06-2021 10:34am

One unavoidable conclusion is that the "care-givers" in charge of the homes ARE totally responsible for the Christian care they DIDN'T provide to the living and the dead in their charge in line with the Christian ethic they professed to hold themselves to. No amount of "we weren't alone in this" will wash that away.

What has shown up is that the religious orders didn't have a leadership level which would carry out an overview and right the wrongs in the homes by removing those responsible for unchristian practices in the homes when the evidence of wrongdoing was present in the fatality statistics. Christian belief wouldn't be necessary for adults to know the secretive burial practices for the dead of the homes were totally wrong.

Yellow_Fern · 10-06-2021 2:46pm

Mark Hamill wrote: »

So we have two differently run homes (Tuam and Bessborough) that were terrible, and two homes (Regina Coeli and Dunboyne) that were apparently run well according to you, but you feel that Tuam and Bessbourough where just "bad apples"? Lucky us that we have your feelings to decide the matter.

Unfortunately for your feelings, the Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby Homes reported that Regina Coeli had 743 infant deaths during its operation (13.5% of all the children who went through it from 1930 to 1998 died. For comparison, Irelands overall infant death rate was 9% in 1917 and 4.5% in 1950). In fact, the Commission states of all 18 homes it investigated (including Ard Mhuire in Dunboyne) that there was "appalling level of infant mortality".

All of your posts are filled with the most vacuous of wishful thinking. You are literally presenting your feelings as evidence without any reference to factual evidence I found with all of 10 seconds of googling. And what worse, you are doing it to white wash and excuse for-profit child murder.

Infant mortality peaked at over 8% in the war years. In rural areas it peaked at 6.5%, in cities it went to 9.5%. In Sligo it reached above 12.8%. but I wouldn't say that means to imply that Sligo mothers were criminals. There are many homes to consider, Dennyhouse and Castlepollard would be two others that much safer than famous ones.

There is no evidence that any of the burial practises were secret. Forgotten is no equal to secretive.

Bannasidhe · 10-06-2021 3:11pm

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Infant mortality peaked at over 8% in the war years. In rural areas it peaked at 6.5%, in cities it went to 9.5% but I wouldn't say that means to imply that urban mothers were criminals. There are many homes to consider, Dennyhouse and Castlepollard would be two others that much safer than famous ones.

There is no evidence that any of the burial practises were secret. Forgotten is no equal to secretive.

What is lacking is evidence of burials.
If memory serves Catherine Corless could find burial records for only two of the children who died in Tuam, but death records showing that 796 children had died at the home.

In a statement The Sisters of Bon Secours said

We acknowledge in particular that infants and children who died in the home were buried in a disrespectful and unacceptable way.

And here you are parsing it to say "it might have been disrespectful and unacceptable but it wasn't a secret"

It's time you produced some evidence that the existence of a mass grave at Tuam wasn't a secret.
Or that the people of Cork just 'forgot' where 800 dead children are buried in the grounds of Bessborough, and the records were somehow lost meaning planning permission to build was denied on the grounds the site could be a burial ground.

Mark Hamill · 10-06-2021 3:21pm

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Infant mortality peaked at over 8% in the war years. In rural areas it peaked at 6.5%, in cities it went to 9.5%. In Sligo it reached above 12.8%. but I wouldn't say that means to imply that Sligo mothers were criminals. There are many homes to consider, Dennyhouse and Castlepollard would be two others that much safer than famous ones.

There is no evidence that any of the burial practises were secret. Forgotten is no equal to secretive.

Dennyhouse was a Magdelene Laundry and Castlepollard had an infant mortality rate of 60.2% for the first 5 years of its operation (1935-40)!
Are you seriously going to keep throwing out random names of mother and baby homes, assuming no horror stories have come up? Are you not even going to bother googling them yourself first to check?

And you numbers don't dispute mine. 9%, even 12.8%, in the war years, still dropped to 4.5% by 1950 and continued to drop to 0.6% by 1998. Regina Coeli had an average rate of 13.5% from 1930 to 1998.

Yellow_Fern · 10-06-2021 5:55pm

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Dennyhouse was a Magdelene Laundry and Castlepollard had an infant mortality rate of 60.2% for the first 5 years of its operation (1935-40)!
Are you seriously going to keep throwing out random names of mother and baby homes, assuming no horror stories have come up? Are you not even going to bother googling them yourself first to check?

And you numbers don't dispute mine. 9%, even 12.8%, in the war years, still dropped to 4.5% by 1950 and continued to drop to 0.6% by 1998. Regina Coeli had an average rate of 13.5% from 1930 to 1998.

I am not disputing your figures, I am pointing out the lack of context and a flawed narrative. Google isnt our friend. The repot is quite clear that the homes varied.
I am quoting the report.

Mother and baby homes were greatly superior to the county homes where, until the
1960s, many unmarried mothers and their children were resident. Conditions in the county homes were generally very poor; this, of course, was also true for the other residents who were mainly older people and people with disabilities. The women in county homes have been largely forgotten. They included women on a second or subsequent pregnancy and women from the poorest families.

page 8 ( executive summary)

Bannasidhe wrote: »

What is lacking is evidence of burials.
If memory serves Catherine Corless could find burial records for only two of the children who died in Tuam, but death records showing that 796 children had died at the home.

In a statement The Sisters of Bon Secours said

And here you are parsing it to say "it might have been disrespectful and unacceptable but it wasn't a secret"

It's time you produced some evidence that the existence of a mass grave at Tuam wasn't a secret.
Or that the people of Cork just 'forgot' where 800 dead children are buried in the grounds of Bessborough, and the records were somehow lost meaning planning permission to build was denied on the grounds the site could be a burial ground.

Burial registers are not so common. In my own family genealogy project I haven't located any. They were not a legal requirement until very late.

smacl · 10-06-2021 6:03pm

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

I am not disputing your figures, I am pointing out the lack of context and a flawed narrative. Google isnt our friend. The repot is quite clear that the homes varied.
I am quoting the report.

When someone says that 'Google isn't your friend' in the context of a heavily contested report while solely relying on that report to validate their own point of view it sets alarm bells ringing. That this report has been called into question by very many people qualified to make such assertions is a matter of public record, has been documented in respectable media and this can all be searched for using services such as google. The report is in no sense the totality of the information and valid opinion in play.

Bannasidhe · 10-06-2021 6:43pm

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Burial registers are not so common. In my own family genealogy project I haven't located any. They were not a legal requirement until very late.

This canard again.

There have been laws dealing with the sanitary aspects of the burial of human remains on the Statute Book since 1887.

Provisions include very clear specifications as to what should happen if anyone died of an infectious disease - which include typhoid, TB, diphtheria, cholera, Scarlet fever, many gastro-intestinal issues such a dysentery (aka the bloody flux). All of which appear on death certs of children for which there are no records as to how/where their remains were disposed of. Their remains should, as a matter of law, have been handed over to the coroner.

Furthermore it was illegal to 'open' a burial ground (or any other site for the disposal of large numbers of deceased persons) without the express permission of the local authority. There is no evidence such permission was obtained.

The 1887 Act makes it clear that part of it's intent was to "prevent a violation of the respect due to the remains of deceased persons"

Now consider the Bon Secours Sisters admitted children who died were buried in a disrespectful and unacceptable way. Or to put it another way - a violation of the respect due to the remains of deceased persons occurred.

They. Admitted. It

A vault under a church or chapel that had been designated as a burial place prior to 1856 could still be used but only to inter members of the family or other persons with the written permission of the head of the family.
That clearly rules out any subterranean chambers under a Mother and Baby home as suitable place to dispose of human remains.

It's frankly a ridiculous argument to contend that because you do not know where your ancestors were buried it follows that the nuns acted within the law in disposing of human remains illicitly.

Hotblack Desiato · 11-06-2021 12:54am

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Google isnt our friend.

It certainly isn't the catholic church's friend. Things were a lot easier for the church in Ireland when it could censor any information it didn't like.

eire4 · 11-06-2021 8:41pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

It certainly isn't the catholic church's friend. Things were a lot easier for the church in Ireland when it could censor any information it didn't like.

What really is galling is that after all the damage and flat out evil they have inflected on so many for so long that over the past couple of decades has been bit by bit exposed they are still fighting tooth and nail against the victims be it threatened law suits or not coming clean with records etc. Just contemptable behaviour really and showing no remorse even really as their actions show.

Hotblack Desiato · 11-06-2021 8:56pm

The dripfeed of revelations of horror over so many years seems to have insensitised most of the Irish people, I can't understand how we still allow such an organisation to exist in this country never mind run schools and hospitals that we pay for.

uptherebels · 11-06-2021 9:20pm

eire4 wrote: »

What really is galling is that after all the damage and flat out evil they have inflected on so many for so long that over the past couple of decades has been bit by bit exposed they are still fighting tooth and nail against the victims be it threatened law suits or not coming clean with records etc. Just contemptable behaviour really and showing no remorse even really as their actions show.

They will protect their money,assets and fleeting vestiges of influence above anything else.
Morals, compassion, repentance these are just things preached to the plebs to keep them docile and the donations coming in.

eire4 · 11-06-2021 10:34pm

uptherebels wrote: »

They will protect their money,assets and fleeting vestiges of influence above anything else.
Morals, compassion, repentance these are just things preached to the plebs to keep them docile and the donations coming in.

Sadly your 100% accurate in what you say there.

Yellow_Fern · 12-06-2021 8:56am

Bannasidhe wrote: »

This canard again.

There have been laws dealing with the sanitary aspects of the burial of human remains on the Statute Book since 1887.

Provisions include very clear specifications as to what should happen if anyone died of an infectious disease - which include typhoid, TB, diphtheria, cholera, Scarlet fever, many gastro-intestinal issues such a dysentery (aka the bloody flux). All of which appear on death certs of children for which there are no records as to how/where their remains were disposed of. Their remains should, as a matter of law, have been handed over to the coroner.

Furthermore it was illegal to 'open' a burial ground (or any other site for the disposal of large numbers of deceased persons) without the express permission of the local authority. There is no evidence such permission was obtained.

The 1887 Act makes it clear that part of it's intent was to "prevent a violation of the respect due to the remains of deceased persons"

Now consider the Bon Secours Sisters admitted children who died were buried in a disrespectful and unacceptable way. Or to put it another way - a violation of the respect due to the remains of deceased persons occurred.

They. Admitted. It

A vault under a church or chapel that had been designated as a burial place prior to 1856 could still be used but only to inter members of the family or other persons with the written permission of the head of the family.
That clearly rules out any subterranean chambers under a Mother and Baby home as suitable place to dispose of human remains.

It's frankly a ridiculous argument to contend that because you do not know where your ancestors were buried it follows that the nuns acted within the law in disposing of human remains illicitly.

A burial place being registered is not a registrar of burials which you mentioned last post. Totally different things. Everyone involved in running Tuam is long dead. The sisters knowledge is based on the same knowledge as ours. I have read the archaeological reports of the site and I respectfully disagree. There is a lot we don't know about the mode of burial but in so far as we know it was not disrespectful.
Whether or not the coroner was involved or not should be determined by the the appointed medical office at Tuam who doesnt really seem to have been so bothered.

smacl wrote: »

When someone says that 'Google isn't your friend' in the context of a heavily contested report while solely relying on that report to validate their own point of view it sets alarm bells ringing. That this report has been called into question by very many people qualified to make such assertions is a matter of public record, has been documented in respectable media and this can all be searched for using services such as google. The report is in no sense the totality of the information and valid opinion in play.

Most of the criticism of the report concern why only 60 odd testimonies were included in the main commission investigation report as opposed to the 500 used in the confidental commission, record curation and testimony transcription. The topics I have been posting are based on records which are both uncontested and more reliable than memory which is one of the worst kinds of evidence.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

It certainly isn't the catholic church's friend. Things were a lot easier for the church in Ireland when it could censor any information it didn't like.

Off topic post.

Yellow_Fern · 12-06-2021 8:57am

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

The dripfeed of revelations of horror over so many years seems to have insensitised most of the Irish people, I can't understand how we still allow such an organisation to exist in this country never mind run schools and hospitals that we pay for.

By your logic we should ban the gov too and the HSE?

Mass unmarked grave for 800 babies in Tuam

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