Gael23 wrote: » The point I made quite some time ago. Some of the women that gave birth to babies here in the 1940s and 50s May still be alive. These are now at an advanced age and many had difficult lives so let them live what’s left of their life without digging this up
robindch wrote: » certain aspects of that transfer require the records to remain sealed for 30 years which seems nuts.
TheChizler wrote: » It's the uncertainty over what exactly is being sealed is the source of the outrage IMO. It's at least the confidential testimony from witnesses, which is fair enough and in theory they can make it public themselves if they want. There's a lot of ambiguity over whether any records are included in that or not. A lot of lazy journalism and opportunistic politicians fanning the flames as well.
Dublin woman Susan Kiernan’s birth mother was charged £85 by the nuns for maintenance though she had already been adopted. The fee was £85, equivalent to €3,200 today, and when she did not pay, the Sisters of Charity pursued her, the programme reveals. Two months after Susan’s birth, they threatened to send the child back to her mother. However, Susan had been adopted four days after her birth. A year after Susan’s birth, her biological mother was still struggling to pay the nuns. They began phoning Arnotts, where she worked, pointing out that the balance due was £82-10s. In correspondence a nun said, “If you do not send, my collector will call to see you. She would prefer not to have to do this as it might be embarrassing for you and we want to safeguard your reputation. We have not failed you; you have failed us.”
Hotblack Desiato wrote: » Programme tonight on RTE1 about illegal adoptions.Who Am I: Ireland's Illegal Adoptions tonight at 9:35pm on RTÉ OneEamonn De Valera Jr repeatedly arranged illegal adoptionsÉamon de Valera’s son facilitated illegal adoptions in 1960s The utter fúcking bítches :mad:
breezy1985 wrote: » Power and money its all they care about. They no more believe in God than you or I
aloyisious wrote: » Getting payment from the adoptive parents as well, it seemed, while pressing the Govt for funding at the same time claiming the order was short of funds.
The committee on children and equality is examining a Bill to legislate for the examination and possible exhumation of mass graves at mother and baby homes, such as at Tuam in Co Galway and Bessborough in Co Cork. ... She said it was “essential that there be no further prevarication, no further procrastination, and no further obfuscation of the truth and that which occurred at Tuam, and, for that matter, every other mother and baby home across the country”.
The remains of 19 women who died at Bessborough mother and baby home in Cork, run by the Congregation of the Sacred Hearts of Jesus and Mary, remain missing, politicians were told. The Oireachtas Committee on Children and Equality is examining proposed legislation to provide for the examination and possible excavation of burial sites in institutions once run by religious orders. In all, 31 women died at the Cork city mother and babies’ home between 1922 and 1998, in addition to more than 900 babies, including 102 babies who died there during the course of 1944 alone. The Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby Homes found death registration records for 29 of the women; just 12 burial records in St Finbarr’s cemetery have been found. “Where are the other 19?” asked Martin Parfrey, who was adopted from Bessborough. “There could be adults buried indiscriminately around Bessborough as well [as those of 836 babies].” The subject of the missing bodies was raised during committee discussions on the “urgency” to halt a proposed housing development, including apartments, on the Bessborough lands. The apartments, planned for part of the site identified in a 1949 map as “children’s burial ground”, are the subject of an emergency oral hearing before An Bord Pleanála next week. Mr Palfrey, founder of the Know Your Own support group for adopted people, said all burial grounds at mother and baby homes should be “taken over by the State” and preserved. ... Peter Mulryan, who suffered physical and emotional abuse when boarded out from the Tuam mother and baby home, and who hopes his sister survived the institution, said mothers and infants’ remains should be returned to families. “A memorial garden is not enough,” he said. Remains should not be left where they are “a second longer”, he said, calling on the State to gather DNA samples from bereaved families immediately.“It’s been going on seven years, highlighted and highlighted and we’re no further on, he said, adding the lack of progress “by the government and State” has been “inhumane”. “I would like to know where my sister is at this moment. I’m three years now looking for records of my sister. Every time I go to bed at night I think of her. Is she dead or alive? I do not know.
Irish Times wrote: The Minister made clear in those letters that he was seeking money, telling church leaders they may wish to consider “making a contribution to the financial costs” of a redress scheme and other measures. No church figure said in reply that they would not contribute, according to a person familiar with the file, but most did not say whether they would.
Hotblack Desiato wrote: » The taxpayer getting soaked for a billion+ while the church walks away or makes only a token contribution is the icing on the cake
Government and Opposition parties have called for representatives of the Mother and Baby Homes Commission to "clarify" its treatment of the personal accounts of survivors in its final report by coming before an Oireachtas committee. Yesterday, a member of the Commission suggested at an Oxford University seminar that threats of legal action had resulted in the testimony of survivors being excluded from the final report, published earlier this year. This afternoon, Minister for Children and Youth Affairs Roderic O'Gorman said the members of the Commission need to "urgently clarify" its treatment of the personal accounts of survivors of the homes. Professor Mary Daly spoke to an online Oxford seminar in Irish History yesterday, and said the Commission was limited in what it could do due to the terms of reference it had to operate under. She confirmed that the evidence provided by 550 survivors to the confidential committee was discounted, saying that the report "reads as realistic". She argued that the main report of the commission had to meet robust legal standards of evidence. There were 550 testimonies to the confidential committee and 19 in front of the commission. Speaking on RTÉ's News at One, Minister O'Gorman said clarification would help to address the anger and uncertainty felt by survivors, adding it was not appropriate for the first public comments on the report to be made to a restricted academic event. He said that "it is necessary at this point for them to come before the Oireachtas committee". Mr O'Gorman also said it was not appropriate that survivors would hear through second hand reports from an academic event about how their personal accounts were treated, as this has always been an issue of concern for them. He said given this upset and the fact the commissioners have been deeply involved in this matter for five years he is hopeful and inviting them to "act in a compassionate way" and explain and clarify the reasons the testimonies were excluded from the final report. The minister said that the commission's terms of reference were "quite clear that the material...from personal accounts could be taken into account by commissioners to the extent that they believed was appropriate". He said he has always said "that it is that chapter [containing personal accounts] for me that stands out the most and is the most powerful indictment of what was happening in these institutions". He said this is why it is so important that these key points are explored and clarified in an "appropriate place like the Oireachtas committee". Minister O'Gorman also said a redress scheme for survivors of mother-and-baby homes will be put in place in the coming week. He said the approach that Commissions of Investigation take to sensitive issues should make "the voice and views of the survivors absolutely central" and this is the way these commissions should take place in the future. Minister O'Gorman said the Government is committed to providing a Records and Memorialisation Centre and will progress with birth information and tracing legislation. He said people can access their own files and 170 applications have already been made for information. Speaking on the same programme, the chair of the Oireachtas Committee on Children said she was "absolutely shocked" over yesterday's events. Kathleen Funchion said the decision by a commission member to speak about the report was "extremely disrespectful and insulting to survivors". She said Prof Daly "chose to speak at a forum about a report that was about their lives and yet she refused to come before the committee or engage in a public forum with survivors". Ms Funchion said that without key questions being answered or amended in some way the report of the Commission cannot be stood over in its current form and the committee members all feel very strongly about the issue and that their invitation to appear before the committee was "snubbed". In February, Commission chair Ms Justice Yvonne Murphy declined to appear before the committee where members had hoped to ask her about the methodology of the report, some of the language used in it and claims that some of its conclusions contradicted evidence given by survivors. Independent TD for Galway West Catherine Connolly has added to strong criticism from cabinet members, opposition leaders, and survivors following reports by Professor Mary Daly that testimonies from hundreds of women were excluded from the final report into the Mother and Baby Homes due to threats of legal action. "It is extraordinary that one of the commissioners chose to talk about this, to a college, a privileged one, in this manner but yet all three commissioners refused to come before an Oireachtas Committee. That was the choice that was made." Speaking on RTÉ's Drivetime Deputy Connolly called for Prof Mary Daly to explain the nature of the alleged threats that were made to the commission, and in what manner these alleged threats were conveyed. She also called for all correspondence between the government and the commission to be published. "What contact was made with the government about these?" Deputy Connolly said Prof Daly has been "helpful". "She has highlighted that the commission came under extraordinary pressure." "How was that done and how did it change the way they wrote the report?" When asked if commissioners could be made to come before the committee, considering there is no legal obligation to do so, Independent TD Catherine Connolly said there is "a higher moral law" than a legal obligation. She said those who appeared before the confidential committee expected to be heard and treated with dignity and respect, and that what they said would be taken into account. That did not happen, she said, and there is the "mystery of the disappearing and reappering" recordings of the testimonies. She said this was only clarified because of "serious pressure" within the Dáil and from the survivors themselves, and people are still facing "enormous obstacles" to get information. "We need to reflect on where we're at", she said.Seminar address on mother-and-baby homes 'disrespectful' Tánaiste Leo Varadkar has said it was disrespectful to both the Oireachtas, and the survivors of mother-and-baby homes, for a member of the commission to speak about its report for the first time to an academic symposium. Speaking during Leaders' Questions in the Dáil this afternoon, Mr Varadkar said it was necessary "without delay" for the commission members to come before the Oireachtas Committee on Children to explain how they arrived at their conclusions and have a "similar engagement" with survivor groups. He said this has occurred previously with both the McAleese and Scally reports, adding: "I can see no excuse or no valid reason for them not to do so, without delay." He was replying to Labour leader Alan Kelly, who said the "devastating revelations" from Prof Daly meant that the commission's report was "not valid; it is not a historical record; it is not accurate". The Tipperary TD accused Prof Daly of retraumatising the survivors by her actions. He said that she and other commission members had refused to come before committee, but was prepared to speak about the report at an academic symposium in England. Deputy Kelly said the commission's report was "fundamentally flawed" and asked if the Government would repudiate the document as called for by some academics. The Tánaiste said he wanted to be careful in his remarks as he knew "a lot of survivors are very upset" but said what happened "wasn't acceptable" and that was "compounded" by the academic seminar. Mr Kelly said it was now clear that evidence "given by women who went through so much" was not used, did not form part of the commission's recommendations and therefore, he asked, was the Government going to put forward proposals for a new commission. He said all of the survivors deserve it. Mr Varadkar said the next step was for the commission to clarify how it used evidence from survivors. Meanwhile, a spokesperson for the Taoiseach has said "it would be very helpful, and the correct thing to do" for the members of the Mother and Baby Home Commission to engage with the Oireachtas and to "outline their perspectives on the inquiry". They added that "survivors must be the number one priority". The spokesperson also said: "The Government is committed to following through on the recommendations of the report, in particular with the Information Tracing Bill, the Memorial Centre, the protection of records and redress."Mother and Baby Home Commission urged to address Oireachtas over report The Minister for Further and Higher Education has called for the authors of the report to address the Oireachtas in relation to their findings. Simon Harris said not giving the survivors of mother-and-baby homes, their families and communities, the opportunity to hear from them in public, unintentionally "added insult to injury". Speaking on RTÉ's Morning Ireland, he said it would be helpful to have a dialogue and explain their findings as part of the healing process and the sharing of information. Mr Harris said "people have every right to speak in Oxford, but if they can find the time to speak in Oxford I hope they can find the time to speak in the Oireachtas". He said there may be "more work to do" and if you undertake to do a body of work "you should be willing to explain how you did that" in a public forum. Legal academic and Senior Lecturer at the University of Birmingham Máiréad Enright, who attended the Oxford seminar, said the atmosphere was very testy at times. Under the Commissions of Investigation Act, according to Ms Enright, the commission had the ability to make general non-individual finding of facts and therefore could accept all information made available to them. She said that when she read the final report, which was published earlier this year, she questioned why that was not done and said she wondered if it was because those who went before the confidential committee did not speak under oath. This was confirmed at yesterday's event, she said.
Hotblack Desiato wrote: » This is an utter disgrace.https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2021/0603/1225774-mother-and-baby-homes-ireland/
eire4 wrote: » The hubris of this so called commissioner is astounding. She has show all the empathy of a sociopath.
Yellow_Fern wrote: » It's called academic freedom
Ottawa Citizen wrote: VANCOUVER — A lack of access to records and first-hand data would hinder the ability to identify the remains of 215 children found at a former residential school in Kamloops, says the director of the Indian Residential School History and Dialogue Centre at the University of British Columbia. Mary Ellen Turpel-Lafond said the federal government and churches have fought over making the school records available to groups working to identify victims of the residential school system for more than 20 years. “It’s just so frustrating, it’s so frustrating to the communities, so frustrating to the families and it’s something the Truth and Reconciliation Commission fought for every single year of its existence,” she said in an interview. The response from politicians and church officials that the discovery is “shocking” rings hollow, she said, as Indigenous people have tried to raise awareness about the issue for years. Indigenous children from 36 communities across B.C.’s Interior are recorded as having attended the school, while data collected by the history and dialogue centre lists 38 additional communities from where children were sent to the school between 1943 and 1952. Turpel-Lafond, a lawyer and former judge who is of Cree and Scottish descent, said she’s also heard anecdotal evidence of children from Alberta and Yukon attending the school, which had a peak enrolment of up to 500 students in the 1950s. It was operated by the Catholic Church from 1890 to 1969 as a residential school before it was taken over by the federal government to serve as a local day school until 1978. The Tk’emlups te Secwepemc First Nation said last week that the remains of the 215 children were found by a ground-penetrating radar specialist. The work to identify the remains would have to compare sources including oral history, church records, records from local authorities and lists of children who may have returned home to their respective communities in one year but not the next, Turpel-Lafond said. “To me, the dead children themselves in this Kamloops school, and others, have human rights,” she said. “We have an obligation to them to provide respect for the deceased and take practical steps to address the indignity that might’ve been done to them and their bodies.” The Truth and Reconciliation Commission has records of 51 children dying at the school. First Nations communities are still battling the federal government and Catholic Church in court to access school records, Turpel-Lafond said. The Missionary Oblates of Mary Immaculate ran about 47 per cent of Canada’s residential schools, including the one in Kamloops. The Oblates have refused to release their records to help identify the remains found and did not return a request for comment on the matter. Father Ken Thorson, the provincial superior of the Oblates, said in a statement earlier this week that the order is growing into a “deepening awareness” of the harm to Indigenous people caused by colonization and the role it played. Archbishop J. Michael Miller of the Vancouver archdiocese said Catholic organizations should release their records. “We will be fully transparent with our archives and records regarding all residential schools, and strongly urge all other Catholic and government organizations to do the same,” he said in a statement on Wednesday. Even if that information was available, a forensic human identification expert said the community faces further hurdles in finding relevant DNA comparisons to identify the victims where direct descendants are no longer alive. Megan Bassendale, the director of the Vancouver-based company Forensic Guardians International, said the process of DNA analysis can take time. “It’s long, it’s expensive and it has to be done really well the first time. If you lose the trust of the families, then it’s over,” said Bassendale, who previously worked to help identify remains found in mass grave sites in former republics of the Soviet Union. Finding close DNA data, such as a mother or father of the victim, or identifying features from health and dental records may be hard at a site that operated for decades, she added. Bassendale said it may require scientists to test DNA from a mother and father’s family lines to narrow down who the person could be, which is a more complex process. However, she is hopeful identities can be found. “We know how to do this; it’s not new. It’s not even uncommon,” Bassendale said. “It’s uncommon for Canada.” Turpel-Lafond said she’s optimistic answers can be found, if groups co-operate. “Can it be done? Yes,” she said. “I’m absolutely confident if we had access to all of the records, government records, oral history and we have people co-operating.”
Yellow_Fern wrote: » I dont thinks disgrace. For better or worse it is basically just how other Commissions worked.
TheChizler wrote: » I might be vastly oversimplifying this, or have it totally backwards, but isn't a commission used to make findings of indisputable fact, so testimony that isn't matched by physical evidence is given a lower weighting than say a tribunal which can make findings relating to likelyhood which would prioritise testimony? An advantage of a commission being less time tied up in legal matters since physical evidence is easier to defend?
Bannasidhe wrote: » No. It isn't.
Bannasidhe wrote: » No. It isn't. It's called destroying any shred of academic credibility and has resulted in hundreds of her colleagues across academia, in particular professional historians, signing an open letter decrying the methodology used by the Commission. Professor Daly's reputation as a historian lies in tatters.
Yellow_Fern wrote: » If a Commission or garda investigation doesn't believe your testimony, there is no right to know why they came to that view. Destroying her academic reputation? I don't think so. Can you spell out what you mean?
Bannasidhe wrote: » A Commission and a Garda investigation are two very different things so stop trying to make a false equivalence.
Bannasidhe wrote: » fear of threats of legal action from religious orders we know exactly what happened.
Bannasidhe wrote: » The Commission came in under budget - there was no reason more people with experience couldn't have been employed, there are post-doc researchers crying out for employment and cross checking information is precisely their skill set. Not one historian with expertise in the methodology of oral testimonies was consulted. They are literally the experts in how oral testimonies - aka historical witness statements - should be dealt with.
Bannasidhe wrote: » If you think Prof Daly's reputation is intact it appears you do not understand how Academia works. No doctoral candidate will want her name associated with them, .
Bannasidhe wrote: » serious scholarly publications will be reluctant to publish her work as her methodology has been seen to be flawed. That's the two must haves in the academic world - Phd students and publications.
