Making a murderer (Netflix)

retro:electro · 26-10-2018 8:30pm

seligehgit wrote: »

Her bigger failing was in failing to understand that it wasn't the truth they were trying to grasp when the judge enquired re the police's motive for seeking two killers.

They were'nt,they were seeking Brendan's confession to corroborate the wafer thin case they had to convict Steven based on arguably refutable forensic evidence.

I was willing her to say something like this. What a missed opportunity. How could she say they were after the truth when they bent and manipulated so much in order to manufacture a story and avoid the truth. I felt for her because she was clearly nervous and I believe this was her first assigned case out of college. She was good but totally out of her depth.

seligehgit · 26-10-2018 8:41pm

retro:electro wrote: »

I was willing her to say something like this. What a missed opportunity. How could she say they were after the truth when they bent and manipulated so much in order to manufacture a story and avoid the truth. I felt for her because she was clearly nervous and I believe this was her first assigned case out of college. She was good but totally out of her depth.

I'm afraid to say she was somewhat out of her depth.

Her colleague Steven Drizin might have been better suited to arguing the case as he appeared to be more experienced.

She did seem to enjoy the limelight.

That's a very mild criticism as those guys at the centre for post conviction relief are true heroes and great advocates for those who possibly suffer miscarriages of justice and don't have the financial wherewithal to continue the fight.

retro:electro · 26-10-2018 8:44pm

Just watching the final episode now and it’s on the phone call between Barb, Scott and Steven.
You’d wonder is Brendan better off locked away from these freaks.

seligehgit · 26-10-2018 8:49pm

retro:electro wrote: »

Just watching the final episode now and it’s on the phone call between Barb, Scott and Steven.
You’d wonder is Brendan better off locked away from these freaks.

TBF Steven was very reasoned in the course of that phone call.

Of course love is blind and Barbara couldn't countenance that her husband could be involved in this hideous crime.

Scott really let himself down.

From season one himself and Bobby's evidence really hung Steven out to dry.

dulux99 · 26-10-2018 8:55pm

That phoencall was damming. When he brings up the possibility that the father in law did it, the guys response was "I hate him!!!

Is that the default response of someone who's being implicated as being involved in a murder? Surely you'd be a bit more... Incredulous? Rather than defaulting to " I hate you!!! "

retro:electro · 28-10-2018 12:07pm

Interesting that none of Avery’s fingerprints were found in the Rav or on the key, only his blood and DNA. Fingerprints are the only source of identification that you cannot manipulate, duplicate or reproduce. You can plant DNA and blood and other matter but you can’t plant a fingerprint. It’s only true authentic marker of knowing whether or not someone was where they’re accused of being.
The prosecution argue this is down to him wearing gloves, well then how did his blood get there?

kev1.3s · 28-10-2018 6:33pm

I haven't watched season 2 tho after watching season 1 I find it difficult to like Steven which doesn't make him guilty, but although I can possibly see he would be capable the state didn't prove beyond reasonable doubt that he was guilty. Given the evidence presented by Netflix the evidence was shaky at best, that is of course if Netflix offered up a balanced argument.
Brendan on the other hand I find very difficult to take, it's very difficult to watch two very minliputive police officers coerce a very intellectually limited teenager into a confession that suits the narrative they are trying to build to convict Steven is nothing short of criminal.
On top of that it seems very likely that there was some cooperation between the police and his own council. If as I believe that brendan is innocent I hope the men involved are haunted for the rest of there lives over stealing the life of a young boy.

28-10-2018 6:48pm

Another baffling thing in this case is the jury. Not only did they have so much information withheld from them but at the end of the trial most of them were leaning towards not guilty. Wonder what changed?

kev1.3s · 28-10-2018 9:24pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Another baffling thing in this case is the jury. Not only did they have so much information withheld from them but at the end of the trial most of them were leaning towards not guilty. Wonder what changed?

The thing that baffles me is that Steven was convicted on the basis that the murder was in the garage and brendan was convicted on his confession which states the murder happened in the trailer.
How can two people be found guilty of the same crime in two different crime scenes? Surely one scenario at least cannot be true.

Boom_Bap · 28-10-2018 10:07pm

kev1.3s wrote: »

The thing that baffles me is that Steven was convicted on the basis that the murder was in the garage and brendan was convicted on his confession which states the murder happened in the trailer.
How can two people be found guilty of the same crime in two different crime scenes? Surely one scenario at least cannot be true.

I believe that it's all from Brendan's 'confession'.
Brendan says that they stabbed her in the trailer and cut her throat, but she wasn't dead. The detectives then led the story to the garage where the spend casing was found.
Brendan initially says it happened outside but was then persuaded that it happened inside which puts the final bullet in the garage near the casing.

long_b · 29-10-2018 11:22pm

retro:electro wrote: »

Just watching the final episode now and it’s on the phone call between Barb, Scott and Steven.
You’d wonder is Brendan better off locked away from these freaks.

What got me was Barb, when SA suggested her husband might have done it, her denial was just "I was with him all day"

Not, "he'd never do anything to hurt anyone".

Just "he didn't have the chance"

And who buys leg irons????

shamrock55 · 29-10-2018 11:34pm

Boom_Bap wrote: »

I believe that it's all from Brendan's 'confession'.
Brendan says that they stabbed her in the trailer and cut her throat, but she wasn't dead. The detectives then led the story to the garage where the spend casing was found.
Brendan initially says it happened outside but was then persuaded that it happened inside which puts the final bullet in the garage near the casing.

Yea the bullet that never passed through a human body

Pelvis · 30-10-2018 8:46am

long_b wrote: »

What got me was Barb, when SA suggested her husband might have done it, her denial was just "I was with him all day"

Not, "he'd never do anything to hurt anyone".

Just "he didn't have the chance"

And who buys leg irons????

Plus he was only with her from 5!

Mantis Toboggan · 30-10-2018 10:03am

Just finished this last night, thought it was really good.

Scott really showed his through colours on that phone call. I'd be of the belief that Steven Avery is innocent. Hard to believe that he's been in jail now for 31 years possibly for crimes he didn't commit.

Boom_Bap · 30-10-2018 10:07am

shamrock55 wrote: »

Yea the bullet that never passed through a human body

Not necessarily, it never passed through a head/skull as there was no bone fragment on it.
But given that the previous owner of the gun said that he used to shoot at everything including the barn with the gun, it's most likely the bullet came from there or from the Averys doing something similar.

I've spent some time in that neck of the woods and they love their guns, particularly for shooting gophers. A girl I know there got her first .22 when was 9 or something and used to shoot gophers with it.

Mountainsandh · 30-10-2018 11:27am

Boom_Bap wrote: »

Not necessarily, it never passed through a head/skull as there was no bone fragment on it.
But given that the previous owner of the gun said that he used to shoot at everything including the barn with the gun, it's most likely the bullet came from there or from the Averys doing something similar.

I've spent some time in that neck of the woods and they love their guns, particularly for shooting gophers. A girl I know there got her first .22 when was 9 or something and used to shoot gophers with it.

Which makes it all the crazier when Ken Kratz argues that Brendan's confession was 100% genuine and valid because he gave "never before released" information on how the crime happened. In the interview I'm talking about he says, with his slimy voice : "he told investigators what gun was used to shoot her" as if it was a shocking revelation. Like the young fella wouldn't know what guns his uncles have. Jaysus. Not even in rural Ireland would you find that unusual. I know dozens of young fellas who would know exactly what gun the uncle shoots rabbits with.

MonkieSocks · 30-10-2018 6:59pm

Avery's blood found on the dash of Theresa Hallbach's car.

If the blood came directly from Avery's finger as the prosecution have said,

It would be a clear clean sample.

If the blood was planted (blood from previous blood sample) as the defense has stated,

That blood would have been stored in a Vacutainer,

Vacutainer tubes may contain additional substances that preserve blood for processing in a medical laboratory. ... The additives may include anticoagulants (EDTA, sodium citrate, heparin) or a gel with density between those of blood cells and blood plasma.

If there is EDTA on the sample on the dash, it may be evidence of blood being planted.

If not....then Avery may put it there

Mountainsandh · 30-10-2018 7:46pm

MonkieSocks wrote: »

Avery's blood found on the dash of Theresa Hallbach's car.

If the blood came directly from Avery's finger as the prosecution have said,

It would be a clear clean sample.

If the blood was planted (blood from previous blood sample) as the defense has stated,

That blood would have been stored in a Vacutainer,

Vacutainer tubes may contain additional substances that preserve blood for processing in a medical laboratory. ... The additives may include anticoagulants (EDTA, sodium citrate, heparin) or a gel with density between those of blood cells and blood plasma.

If there is EDTA on the sample on the dash, it may be evidence of blood being planted.

If not....then Avery may put it there

That's being addressed in season 2.

MonkieSocks · 30-10-2018 9:51pm

Mountainsandh wrote: »

That's being addressed in season 2.

Have only watched 4 episodes so far, guess I will see soon.

Thanks

Mam of 4 · 30-10-2018 11:31pm

MonkieSocks wrote: »

Avery's blood found on the dash of Theresa Hallbach's car.

If the blood came directly from Avery's finger as the prosecution have said,

It would be a clear clean sample.

If the blood was planted (blood from previous blood sample) as the defense has stated,

That blood would have been stored in a Vacutainer,

Vacutainer tubes may contain additional substances that preserve blood for processing in a medical laboratory. ... The additives may include anticoagulants (EDTA, sodium citrate, heparin) or a gel with density between those of blood cells and blood plasma.

If there is EDTA on the sample on the dash, it may be evidence of blood being planted.

If not....then Avery may put it there

That's the bit I don't get - if SA was in the jeep and the blood did come from his finger , (not planted there ) , why was there no fingerprints on the steering wheel ?

He must not have had gloves on for the blood to have smeared where it (supposedly ) did ?

retro:electro · 30-10-2018 11:33pm

The blood stains look suspiciously strange too. Very unnatural looking or something.

Mam of 4 · 30-10-2018 11:36pm

retro:electro wrote: »

The blood stains look suspiciously strange too. Very unnatural looking or something.

When you put it all together , it just doesn't completely add up , for me anyway .

Mountainsandh · 31-10-2018 8:21am

Mam of 4 wrote: »

When you put it all together , it just doesn't completely add up , for me anyway .

+1

Also, isn't it unlikely that, in a murder through stabbing, gunshot, and other slashing, there should be nearly more blood from the perpetrator 's cut on his hand than the victim's?

If he cleaned up the victim's blood so carefully in the trailer and garage, how could he overlook his own blood in the car, and the boot ? If he couldn't be bothered, why didn't he crush the car or dump it elsewhere ? How could he just go up North to the father's cabin knowing the car with his blood was on the scene ?

If he is a mastermind of deception for other aspects of the case, how could he be such a blundering fool for this ?

Mam of 4 · 31-10-2018 9:53am

Mountainsandh wrote: »

+1

Also, isn't it unlikely that, in a murder through stabbing, gunshot, and other slashing, there should be nearly more blood from the perpetrator 's cut on his hand than the victim's?

If he cleaned up the victim's blood so carefully in the trailer and garage, how could he overlook his own blood in the car, and the boot ? If he couldn't be bothered, why didn't he crush the car or dump it elsewhere ? How could he just go up North to the father's cabin knowing the car with his blood was on the scene ?

If he is a mastermind of deception for other aspects of the case, how could he be such a blundering fool for this ?

Exactly ! None of it makes sense ,imo .

To shoot and then dismember someone, surely the amount of blood , bodily fluids etc , would have taken hours to clean up , let alone be cleaned so thoroughly that there was no bone fragments found anywhere in the garage or his trailer ?!

Mantis Toboggan · 31-10-2018 10:24am

Am I right in saying very little of the body was actually found? Only a few bones which they couldn't determine were human or not?

Boom_Bap · 31-10-2018 10:29am

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

Am I right in saying very little of the body was actually found? Only a few bones which they couldn't determine were human or not?

There were human bones found and blood splatter and hair. Nothing else.

In relation to the blood on the dash, it's suspected that it came from the sink in Avery's place, it looks like it was wiped on from a swab. When the team are recreating, they nearly get an identical shape. The same with the blood on the door frame, it looks like it was dropped from a lab dropper yokie.

The ex boyfriends room-mate having the day planner with notes from the day of the murder should be the key piece of evidence used for any further investigation in my eyes. Everything else looks compromised.

Brock Turnpike · 31-10-2018 10:57am

I can't recall now, but was it established in the first series as to the whereabouts of Scott Tadych and Bobby Dassey at the time of the murder? Had they claimed to have gone hunting together? Or did Tadych say he went hunting by himself while Bobby hunted near where Tadych lived?

What I would really like to see is the collated evidence each of the Avery, Dassey, and Tadych family gave in relation to what they knew about the day it happened.

Mountainsandh · 31-10-2018 11:40am

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

Am I right in saying very little of the body was actually found? Only a few bones which they couldn't determine were human or not?

40 to 60% of a human skeletal remains were recovered. Don't think they could categorically say all bones recovered were human.

Brock Turnpike wrote: »

I can't recall now, but was it established in the first series as to the whereabouts of Scott Tadych and Bobby Dassey at the time of the murder? Had they claimed to have gone hunting together? Or did Tadych say he went hunting by himself while Bobby hunted near where Tadych lived?

What I would really like to see is the collated evidence each of the Avery, Dassey, and Tadych family gave in relation to what they knew about the day it happened.

Bobby says he met Scott down the cross in the road as he was heading off hunting, so Scott could confirm time he left. They just crossed and exchanged a few words in their cars. Don't think Scott went hunting with him but not sure.

Mountainsandh · 31-10-2018 11:45am

Bryan (other brother) said in an early conversation with Bobby, he told him Steven couldn't have done it because he (Bobby) had seen her leaving in her car. Bryan was never called to testify so this statement was never used in the defense.

Kingp35 · 31-10-2018 11:57am

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Bryan (other brother) said in an early conversation with Bobby, he told him Steven couldn't have done it because he (Bobby) had seen her leaving in her car. Bryan was never called to testify so this statement was never used in the defense.

I think the defence really messed up here. Surely they knew about this so I can't fathom why they didn't call him to testify.

Boom_Bap · 31-10-2018 2:40pm

Kingp35 wrote: »

I think the defence really messed up here. Surely they knew about this so I can't fathom why they didn't call him to testify.

I think that Bryan's account wasn't touched based on the findings on his computer.
Getting him to testify by either prosecution or defence could be a disaster.

Not really mentioned in the doc, but the defence wouldn't want anything being said against another family member as it would just paint the picture that the whole family are bad eggs....which is the consensus already in Manitwo pre trial

Panrich · 31-10-2018 10:24pm

Boom_Bap wrote: »

I think that Bryan's account wasn't touched based on the findings on his computer.
Getting him to testify by either prosecution or defence could be a disaster.

Not really mentioned in the doc, but the defence wouldn't want anything being said against another family member as it would just paint the picture that the whole family are bad eggs....which is the consensus already in Manitwo pre trial

Unless it’s from another source other than the documentary, there is no evidence that there was discovery of incriminating evidence on Bryan.

Kingp35 · 01-11-2018 10:20am

Panrich wrote: »

Unless it’s from another source other than the documentary, there is no evidence that there was discovery of incriminating evidence on Bryan.

I presume that Boom_Bap meant to say Bobby and not Bryan.

Boom_Bap · 01-11-2018 2:17pm

Yeah, I'm getting all the brothers with name starting with B all mixed up

retro:electro · 01-11-2018 2:23pm

Boom_Bap Dassey is another one

Mountainsandh · 01-11-2018 6:37pm

retro:electro wrote: »

Boom_Bap Dassey is another one

Up to no good like the rest of them

Boom_Bap · 01-11-2018 6:52pm

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Up to no good like the rest of them

**deletes browser history**

Officer999 · 01-11-2018 7:39pm

I feel sorry for Steven's parents. It was heartbreaking watching some of their scenes.
Especially when his poor father forgot his wallet with his photo ID and couldn't see Steven on his birthday.

retro:electro · 01-11-2018 7:45pm

Officer999 wrote: »

Especially when his poor father forgot his wallet with his photo ID and couldn't see Steven on his birthday.

Am I the only one who felt he did that on purpose? I got the impression he didn’t want to visit, be it out of sadness or awkwardness or whatever.

Officer999 · 01-11-2018 7:50pm

retro:electro wrote: »

Am I the only one who felt he did that on purpose? I got the impression he didn’t want to visit, be it out of sadness or awkwardness or whatever.

Actually it did cross my mind. His probably also not as deaf as he makes out too!

Mountainsandh · 01-11-2018 8:52pm

It crossed my mind too but I discarded it. I don't know... maybe he's just old and forgetful. Maybe he's had enough of all these visits, same old rigmarole...

dulux99 · 01-11-2018 8:54pm

I thought some of the scenes with the poor parents were almost voyeuristic. Seeing these old people just potter around helplessly unable to turn on a cooker while being recorded just didn't sit well with me.

Brock Turnpike · 01-11-2018 9:44pm

Officer999 wrote: »

I feel sorry for Steven's parents. It was heartbreaking watching some of their scenes.
Especially when his poor father forgot his wallet with his photo ID and couldn't see Steven on his birthday.

Found all the scenes with his dad really hard to watch. He just looks completely broken. You can see it in his eyes.

Kingp35 · 02-11-2018 10:05am

Just finished Season Two last night. I felt it was a little dragged out, they could have fit it into 8 episodes. I agree that the scenes with the parents were slightly voyeuristic alright.

I felt that Brendan's lawyer Laura Nirider was poor both times she went in front of the 7th court. She seemed nervous and didn't argue the case very well at all. She was out of her depth in my opinion. They have decided to jump on the gravy train now too by going on tour. Not sure how I feel about that. http://www.digitalspy.com/tv/making-a-murderer/news/a869732/making-a-murderer-season-2-brendan-dassey-lawyers-tour-tickets/

I'm not convinced of Stephen's innocence but I would be leaning towards Bobby and Scott being the culprits rather than Stephen. Brendan is almost certainly innocent in my mind but he won't be getting out unless Stephen does.

Pelvis · 02-11-2018 10:21am

Kingp35 wrote: »

They have decided to jump on the gravy train now too by going on tour. Not sure how I feel about that. http://www.digitalspy.com/tv/making-a-murderer/news/a869732/making-a-murderer-season-2-brendan-dassey-lawyers-tour-tickets/

I had an issue when Avery's lawyers did this, it didn't sit right with me. But I'll forgive Dassey's lawyers on this one. They're doing good work, Laura Nirider started on Brendan's 10 years ago as a law student. No doubt she could choose to earn a lot more doing something else anytime she wants. I won't begrudge her making a bit of cash and I'm sure most profits will go towards the Center on Wrongful Convictions of Youth.

Keyzer · 02-11-2018 10:28am

Kingp35 wrote: »

I felt that Brendan's lawyer Laura Nirider was poor both times she went in front of the 7th court. She seemed nervous and didn't argue the case very well at all. She was out of her depth in my opinion.

Agreed - she was completely out of her depth. She should have let someone else more experienced in dealing with these situations take the lead. She had the best of intentions though.

I finished season 2 last night - some thoughts.

Zellner is amazing, I'm very impressed by her examination of case and her level of scrutiny. I think if she got into a courtroom in a new trial she would destroy the case and Avery would be exonerated.

How the case was presented by the prosecution is clearly not what happened.

The prosecution in the original trial undertook some seriously shady tactics.

Ken Kratz is a piece of dog shít. A truly repugnant slime ball.

When I finished season 1 I wasn't sure of Avery and Dassey's innocence but I remember thinking if it weren't them then the most likely culprits would be Bobby and Scott. I also had a bad feeling about the ex-boyfriend.

Alas, I can't see Avery or Dassey getting out anytime soon. The courts will fight it every step of the way even if Zellner had video proof someone else did it. The implication in a follow on law suit could bankrupt the county. If they are exonerated, so many cards will fall.

Mountainsandh · 02-11-2018 12:44pm

Bryan Hillegas's involvement is still a puzzle though, isn't it ?

If only he would choose to "get off the train", like Kathleen puts it. Just tell. To hell with it.

If Ryan confessed what he planted/how he helped the prosecution, the entire corruption aspect could be exposed very quickly and for definite.
He would more than likely be in trouble for that, but surely that's better than being a potential murder suspect in a retrial.

As it stands, although myself I believe Bobby was the murderer, covered by Scott, I'm keeping a little pigeon-hole open with Ryan in it as the murderer, because of all the obvious reasons (close to her, over-involved in search, moved into her place, knew very intimate details of her life in spite of relationship being over...).

Boom_Bap · 02-11-2018 12:52pm

retro:electro wrote: »

Am I the only one who felt he did that on purpose? I got the impression he didn’t want to visit, be it out of sadness or awkwardness or whatever.

I think that it was an effort by the film-makers to make the parents look older and more forgetful, there were a few scenes that were unnecessary like lingering on the mother trying to get out of the car.

In saying that, I think that he genuinely did forget his drivers license, but the film-makers made a big deal out of it.

Boom_Bap · 02-11-2018 12:55pm

Kingp35 wrote: »

They have decided to jump on the gravy train now too by going on tour. Not sure how I feel about that. http://www.digitalspy.com/tv/making-a-murderer/news/a869732/making-a-murderer-season-2-brendan-dassey-lawyers-tour-tickets/

In the documentary, I think it also said that she tours universities already discussing the case and what they have done. they even gave a snippet from it.

I think that we have to remember that they are not full time on the case either and that they are a university and have other duties.

Keyzer · 02-11-2018 2:05pm

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Bryan Hillegas's involvement is still a puzzle though, isn't it ?

Big time.

He needs to answer some questions.

Like how did he get her daily planner if she never went home and it was in the car with her.

Making a murderer (Netflix)

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