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Making a murderer (Netflix)

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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,700 ✭✭✭Mountainsandh


    It crossed my mind too but I discarded it. I don't know... maybe he's just old and forgetful. Maybe he's had enough of all these visits, same old rigmarole...


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,795 ✭✭✭dulux99


    I thought some of the scenes with the poor parents were almost voyeuristic. Seeing these old people just potter around helplessly unable to turn on a cooker while being recorded just didn't sit well with me.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,744 ✭✭✭Brock Turnpike


    Officer999 wrote: »
    I feel sorry for Steven's parents. It was heartbreaking watching some of their scenes.
    Especially when his poor father forgot his wallet with his photo ID and couldn't see Steven on his birthday.

    Found all the scenes with his dad really hard to watch. He just looks completely broken. You can see it in his eyes.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,236 Mod ✭✭✭✭Kingp35


    Just finished Season Two last night. I felt it was a little dragged out, they could have fit it into 8 episodes. I agree that the scenes with the parents were slightly voyeuristic alright.

    I felt that Brendan's lawyer Laura Nirider was poor both times she went in front of the 7th court. She seemed nervous and didn't argue the case very well at all. She was out of her depth in my opinion. They have decided to jump on the gravy train now too by going on tour. Not sure how I feel about that. http://www.digitalspy.com/tv/making-a-murderer/news/a869732/making-a-murderer-season-2-brendan-dassey-lawyers-tour-tickets/

    I'm not convinced of Stephen's innocence but I would be leaning towards Bobby and Scott being the culprits rather than Stephen. Brendan is almost certainly innocent in my mind but he won't be getting out unless Stephen does.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,758 ✭✭✭Pelvis


    Kingp35 wrote: »
    They have decided to jump on the gravy train now too by going on tour. Not sure how I feel about that. http://www.digitalspy.com/tv/making-a-murderer/news/a869732/making-a-murderer-season-2-brendan-dassey-lawyers-tour-tickets/

    I had an issue when Avery's lawyers did this, it didn't sit right with me. But I'll forgive Dassey's lawyers on this one. They're doing good work, Laura Nirider started on Brendan's 10 years ago as a law student. No doubt she could choose to earn a lot more doing something else anytime she wants. I won't begrudge her making a bit of cash and I'm sure most profits will go towards the Center on Wrongful Convictions of Youth.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,331 ✭✭✭Keyzer


    Kingp35 wrote: »
    I felt that Brendan's lawyer Laura Nirider was poor both times she went in front of the 7th court. She seemed nervous and didn't argue the case very well at all. She was out of her depth in my opinion.

    Agreed - she was completely out of her depth. She should have let someone else more experienced in dealing with these situations take the lead. She had the best of intentions though.

    I finished season 2 last night - some thoughts.

    Zellner is amazing, I'm very impressed by her examination of case and her level of scrutiny. I think if she got into a courtroom in a new trial she would destroy the case and Avery would be exonerated.

    How the case was presented by the prosecution is clearly not what happened.

    The prosecution in the original trial undertook some seriously shady tactics.

    Ken Kratz is a piece of dog shít. A truly repugnant slime ball.

    When I finished season 1 I wasn't sure of Avery and Dassey's innocence but I remember thinking if it weren't them then the most likely culprits would be Bobby and Scott. I also had a bad feeling about the ex-boyfriend.

    Alas, I can't see Avery or Dassey getting out anytime soon. The courts will fight it every step of the way even if Zellner had video proof someone else did it. The implication in a follow on law suit could bankrupt the county. If they are exonerated, so many cards will fall.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,700 ✭✭✭Mountainsandh


    Bryan Hillegas's involvement is still a puzzle though, isn't it ?

    If only he would choose to "get off the train", like Kathleen puts it. Just tell. To hell with it.

    If Ryan confessed what he planted/how he helped the prosecution, the entire corruption aspect could be exposed very quickly and for definite.
    He would more than likely be in trouble for that, but surely that's better than being a potential murder suspect in a retrial.

    As it stands, although myself I believe Bobby was the murderer, covered by Scott, I'm keeping a little pigeon-hole open with Ryan in it as the murderer, because of all the obvious reasons (close to her, over-involved in search, moved into her place, knew very intimate details of her life in spite of relationship being over...).


  • Moderators, Music Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,717 Mod ✭✭✭✭Boom_Bap


    Am I the only one who felt he did that on purpose? I got the impression he didn’t want to visit, be it out of sadness or awkwardness or whatever.


    I think that it was an effort by the film-makers to make the parents look older and more forgetful, there were a few scenes that were unnecessary like lingering on the mother trying to get out of the car.


    In saying that, I think that he genuinely did forget his drivers license, but the film-makers made a big deal out of it.


  • Moderators, Music Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,717 Mod ✭✭✭✭Boom_Bap


    Kingp35 wrote: »
    They have decided to jump on the gravy train now too by going on tour. Not sure how I feel about that. http://www.digitalspy.com/tv/making-a-murderer/news/a869732/making-a-murderer-season-2-brendan-dassey-lawyers-tour-tickets/


    In the documentary, I think it also said that she tours universities already discussing the case and what they have done. they even gave a snippet from it.

    I think that we have to remember that they are not full time on the case either and that they are a university and have other duties.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,331 ✭✭✭Keyzer


    Bryan Hillegas's involvement is still a puzzle though, isn't it ?

    Big time.

    He needs to answer some questions.

    Like how did he get her daily planner if she never went home and it was in the car with her.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭Uncharted


    Bobby Dassey needs to scrutinised to within an inch of his life by Kathleen Zellner.

    He knows exactly what happened imo...

    The truth will out....


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,003 ✭✭✭Hammer89


    I liked Laura, one of Brendan's lawyers. I also fancy her a little bit, but she was so emotionally invested in the case, which is a good thing because obviously the progress they made was down to her and her colleague's perseverance, but emotional investment is also a bad thing because that whole Seventh Circuit thing didn't go all that smoothly for her, probably because she cared so much.

    She didn't handle the scrutiny by judges anywhere near as well as her opponent, who was that bit more calm and composed. I still like her though and thought she came out of the whole thing looking very good.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭Uncharted


    Hammer89 wrote: »
    I liked Laura, one of Brendan's lawyers. I also fancy her a little bit, but she was so emotionally invested in the case, which is a good thing because obviously the progress they made was down to her and her colleague's perseverance, but emotional investment is also a bad thing because that whole Seventh Circuit thing didn't go all that smoothly for her, probably because she cared so much.

    She didn't handle the scrutiny by judges anywhere near as well as her opponent, who was that bit more calm and composed. I still like her though and thought she came out of the whole thing looking very good.

    I like her too,she seems to genuinely care about the case,but she was completely out of her depth here. And it really showed.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,236 Mod ✭✭✭✭Kingp35


    Here's an interesting website detailing the things that Making A Murderer left out and some information about Stephens past.

    http://stevenaverycase.com/what-making-a-murderer-didnt-tell-you/#sthash.g4PGIuf8.dpbs

    Also here's a Reddit subreddit that goes into great detail as to why they think Stephen is guilty. It's a serious rabbit hole to go down if you have the time!

    https://www.reddit.com/r/StevenAveryIsGuilty/wiki/evidence


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,331 ✭✭✭Keyzer


    Kingp35 wrote: »
    Here's an interesting website detailing the things that Making A Murderer left out and some information about Stephens past.

    http://stevenaverycase.com/what-making-a-murderer-didnt-tell-you/#sthash.g4PGIuf8.dpbs

    Also here's a Reddit subreddit that goes into great detail as to why they think Stephen is guilty. It's a serious rabbit hole to go down if you have the time!

    https://www.reddit.com/r/StevenAveryIsGuilty/wiki/evidence

    No doubt he's had a troubled past but I don't pay much creedence to the stuff on those sites.

    Zellner has gone through the forensic evidence which convicted him with a fine tooth comb. Her tests would makes me believe the story which the prosecution laid out is not true. Doesn't mean I 100% think he's innocent but I'm leaning a lot to that side after watching season 2.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,358 ✭✭✭kev1.3s


    Keyzer wrote: »
    No doubt he's had a troubled past but I don't pay much creedence to the stuff on those sites.

    Zellner has gone through the forensic evidence which convicted him with a fine tooth comb. Her tests would makes me believe the story which the prosecution laid out is not true. Doesn't mean I 100% think he's innocent but I'm leaning a lot to that side after watching season 2.
    To be to honest it's the blood that gets me, I find it very difficult to believe that someone broke into his trailer and luckily found fresh blood in the sink. Zellner doesn't really prove her narrative to me on the blood testing either, I do one am continually flip flopping over there guilt/innocence.


  • Registered Users Posts: 680 ✭✭✭jim salter


    Thats one of the biggest things for me. To be able to rape, murder and mutilate a person and then have a casual conversation with your girlfriend...

    It would take a serious psychopath lacking all empathy or emotion to be able to do that. And thats not Steven, he seems like an emotional guy.

    I do think Kathleen is wrong about the blood in the sink though. That seems a bit too convenient. Then again, the state owing a guy 36M dollars and the police having their reputations questioned and suddenly a girl that was on his property gets murdered with evidence clearly planted... convenient for the state and the police how that worked out.

    The evidence is planted for sure. By who and how though is harder to say.
    Colborn is 100% involved in the car ending up on the property. He is standing in front of it the night before its found. Then Ryan gives Pam the camera and sends her to almost the exact location of the car.

    Lenk plants the key in the trailer.

    Not sure who moves the bones or plants the blood but probably Lenk / Colborn are involved.

    The police are still concerned though. How can a jury be convinced if there is no blood or DNA in either the trailer or garage. Thats when they decide to breakdown Brendan. What better evidence than having a person confess on camera?

    There is absolutely no evidence of rape or mutilation, that was a concocted 'theory' that was pushed by Krantz and the cops.

    This whole thing stinks to high heaven.

    My empathy is with the parents.


  • Registered Users Posts: 680 ✭✭✭jim salter


    Thats one of the biggest things for me. To be able to rape, murder and mutilate a person and then have a casual conversation with your girlfriend...

    It would take a serious psychopath lacking all empathy or emotion to be able to do that. And thats not Steven, he seems like an emotional guy.

    I do think Kathleen is wrong about the blood in the sink though. That seems a bit too convenient. Then again, the state owing a guy 36M dollars and the police having their reputations questioned and suddenly a girl that was on his property gets murdered with evidence clearly planted... convenient for the state and the police how that worked out.

    The evidence is planted for sure. By who and how though is harder to say.
    Colborn is 100% involved in the car ending up on the property. He is standing in front of it the night before its found. Then Ryan gives Pam the camera and sends her to almost the exact location of the car.

    Lenk plants the key in the trailer.

    Not sure who moves the bones or plants the blood but probably Lenk / Colborn are involved.

    The police are still concerned though. How can a jury be convinced if there is no blood or DNA in either the trailer or garage. Thats when they decide to breakdown Brendan. What better evidence than having a person confess on camera?

    There is absolutely no evidence of rape or mutilation, that was a concocted 'theory' that was pushed by Krantz and the cops.

    This whole thing stinks to high heaven.

    My empathy is with the parents.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,700 ✭✭✭Mountainsandh


    I think the blood thing could well have happened coincidentally, as the cops (Colborn or whoever else) could very well have decided to go get their own unofficial dna samples "after hours" on the sly.

    As in, possibly they were after hairs, toothbrush and some sweaty clothing, and happened upon the blood.




    I like the Stevenaverycase website for quick reference to interviews, but that list of "things that the documentary didn't tell you" is not really accurate.

    The documentary did show that the bullet matched Steven's gun, for example, and there's a few more things that I thought were "yeah, well duh" in it.
    Like the EDTA thing. Zellner clearly says she inherited that theory that the planted blood was from the vial, she had to follow up somewhat even though she wasn't expecting anything from it, and she pretty swiftly dismissed it.

    In other words, a bit inflated for drama I guess.

    edit : sorry I keep adding to this post, this bit from the page above "what the documentary didn't tell you" (i added the red)
    The key was found on the second search FALSE of the trailer; the previous entries the documentary claimed were "searches" were: a 10-minute sweep to look for any sign of Teresa alive, an entry to retrieve the guns seen on the initial sweep, an entry to get the serial number from Steven's computer for use in a warrant, and the crime lab luminol testing the residence. The first search was cut short as it was 10:30pm, and when they continued the search, they found the key.

    First search of 12932 (SA's residence) p.86 CASO Inv. Reports 10 minutes. Just to check if Teresa was there. 5th Nov around 15.48-15.58, inv. Steier of Calumet, with Remiker of Manitowoc.

    Second search same day 5th Nov : 19.30 . Remiker, Lenk, and Colborn, with Bill Tyson from Calumet to babysit.
    This lasted until 22.05.

    This was a very thorough search, a lot of items of evidence were collected of which 1 set of keys in the bedroom with a 2003 keyring, and a single key on top of a dresser or the tv in the living room, along with 2 rolls of duct tape, vacuum bags, multiple blood spatters were swabbed, photographs of the entire trailer were taken, bedding from Steven's bed was taken, medication from the dresser that the key would later be found to be resting beside, magazines, photographs, etc... Colborn was the one in charge of looking in and around that dresser.
    https://archive.org/details/CASOInvestigativeReportRedacted/page/n93


    They returned for a third search on 8th Nov.
    This was Lenk, Colborn, and Dep Dan Kucharski to babysit.
    That search started at 8.25 am and lasted until 12.18 pm.
    That's when miraculously found the key, and you can read about it there https://archive.org/details/CASOInvestigativeReportRedacted/page/n145

    another edit : it's interesting and suspicious how this officer reporting this particular search insists heavily on the fact that he was in visual contact at all times with the other officers, and how they were just feet away from him. It reads like this particular report was re-written well after the discovery of the key, rather than a standard record of a search (like the previous records). He was supposed to be searching the night stand when the key was discovered, but he points out he didn't have any gloves on as they were "nearly finished the search", so he got a new pair of gloves that hadn't touched anything else in the trailer that night. Well, well, well, how lucky.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,039 ✭✭✭✭retro:electro


    I’m not convinced those bones are even Teresa’s. Imagine if her body was discovered buried elsewhere. That could be the only way the whole case could be turned on it’s head as it would prove everything up to now was a total fabrication.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭Babooshka


    kev1.3s wrote: »
    To be to honest it's the blood that gets me, I find it very difficult to believe that someone broke into his trailer and luckily found fresh blood in the sink. Zellner doesn't really prove her narrative to me on the blood testing either, I do one am continually flip flopping over there guilt/innocence.

    I do agree that it's very confusing at times, In don't really think Kathleen Zellner would waste so much of her time on this if she wasn't 100% sure of his innocence though, she has her own reputation to think of as a credible lawyer and she seems genuinely dogged about getting him a retrial. I really hope she manages to do that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,700 ✭✭✭Mountainsandh


    She's really teasing Kratz online, and even Buting is helping. I think it's deliberate, she's trying to get him to speak out something. She's very skilled at working people so they voluntarily surrender more info than they intended, and sweaty's ego is cooperating so far. (If it doesn't make sense look at her twitter)


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭Babooshka


    She's really teasing Kratz online, and even Buting is helping. I think it's deliberate, she's trying to get him to speak out something. She's very skilled at working people so they voluntarily surrender more info than they intended, and sweaty's ego is cooperating so far. (If it doesn't make sense look at her twitter)

    I think that's exactly why she's releasing the theories about Bobby and Scott, I think she's stirring to see will they release more of the truth, she may feel they didn't do it but goading them into speaking out of what they know, she's just trying to get to the bottom of it and she feels they know more than they're letting on.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,700 ✭✭✭Mountainsandh


    Babooshka wrote: »
    I think that's exactly why she's releasing the theories about Bobby and Scott, I think she's stirring to see will they release more of the truth, she may feel they didn't do it but goading them into speaking out of what they know, she's just trying to get to the bottom of it and she feels they know more than they're letting on.

    Yeah I think there's a lot of work like that going on behind the scenes. I think for example she had Steven well prepared for the phone call with Barb and Scott, and it worked a treat with the admission that Bobby had seen TH leave the property.

    She needs some people to start talking, even if it's not to her directly.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,253 ✭✭✭MonkieSocks


    =(:-) Me? I know who I am. I'm a dude playing a dude disguised as another dude (-:)=



  • Moderators, Music Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,717 Mod ✭✭✭✭Boom_Bap


    That phone call can be interpreted a few different ways.


    If you look at it as Scott being innocent, it's him venting about the past X number of years of his life being interfered with because of Steven, and no sign of it stopping. Steven also sounds rather smarmy on the call as well, trying to get Scott and Barb angry.


    Or it could be Steven just laying out the facts and looking for any evidence and not caring about his family anymore.


    Also, Barb could be seen as deflecting here when the conversation gets tricky by talking about taking her own life and being vague about the internet usage.


    I hope in the latter that Barb is not suicidal and that someone has gotten her some help after hearing this call.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,700 ✭✭✭Mountainsandh


    Boom_Bap wrote: »
    That phone call can be interpreted a few different ways.


    If you look at it as Scott being innocent, it's him venting about the past X number of years of his life being interfered with because of Steven, and no sign of it stopping. Steven also sounds rather smarmy on the call as well, trying to get Scott and Barb angry.


    Or it could be Steven just laying out the facts and looking for any evidence and not caring about his family anymore.


    Also, Barb could be seen as deflecting here when the conversation gets tricky by talking about taking her own life and being vague about the internet usage.


    I hope in the latter that Barb is not suicidal and that someone has gotten her some help after hearing this call.

    BB, don't fall for it.

    Barb is making up stuff, she's great at that, I was taken in watching the documentary myself. Do you remember her and Scott speaking on the bench, outside their house ? It's all so bucolic, she's so angelic.

    Well, she had the internet at that time. That's verified in many police reports. For a start, Brendan had an IM relationship with a girl he liked. The police have no doubt whatsoever from what I understand that the computer was connected to the internet at the time.

    She's just lying, and emotionally blackmailing Steven.

    It's terrible to think that she's ok with Brendan doing a stint in prison and Steven being in there for life, provided her Bobby is not at minimum accused of perjury/obstruction, and at worst murder.

    She knows a lot more than she lets on I think.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,177 ✭✭✭✭greenspurs


    Any truth in the rumor that Netflix are paying Zellner to take the case ?

    "Bright lights and Thunder .................... "



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,483 ✭✭✭Bazzy


    One thing that struck me

    I think there innocent Steven and Brendan

    Earl whos looking after the business I think it was episode 6 or 7 was giving the poor mouth about how they hadn't money to get the Lifting machines oil changed

    But he got out of a new looking bright yellow mustang.

    After that you see the Mother and Father travelling to Prison in a relatively new Hyundai car so i wonder did they get some sponsorship?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,134 ✭✭✭jimwallace197


    greenspurs wrote: »
    Any truth in the rumor that Netflix are paying Zellner to take the case ?

    I wouldnt be surprised, someone of her calibre and the amount of investigation her and her team have done, it would make sense.

    I doubt she would be banking on an eventual payout from the state & I think whatever money Avery received from the initial false conviction would have been used up with his original defence team.

    What really gets me about this case is Brendans telephone calls to his mother about how avery carried out the crimes. If it wasnt for that, I would be banking on him and Avery being innocent with Bobby Dassey or the ex being the main suspects but something about those calls tells me he wasnt lying.


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