Turkish forces have started bombing and attacking Kurdish people in Syria

Ihatewhahabies · 10-10-2019 1:22pm

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

A "Common enemy" and "Allies" are two very different things to be fair.

US/UK = Allies
US/Israel = Allies
US/Kurds = Common Enemy, but not the same goal (The US does not want a Kurdish State, because that means alienating Turkey)
US/Turkey = Allies (in an official sense via NATO)

America got a nice kick in the teeth for itself over the S400/Patriot system disaster.
And now Russia has said it's willing to sell it's new 4.5 and 5.0 Generation fighters to them (Turkey)

This is a MAJOR issue for NATO.

The rest of the NATO countries either need to kick Turkey out of NATO or make them fall in line.
This business of "The rules don't apply to us" that Turkey seems to think is has, needs to stop.

Agreed on most of above. There is one major difficulty there is no mechanism within Nato to kick any member out of NATO. This empowers Erdogan enormously vis a vis NATO. Hence no real sanctions for the S400 deal. It will be interesting if Turkey buys Russian military planes, this will confirm that NATO has lost Turkey totally to Russia/China, IMO is true already.

Economically Turkey is making serious strides in decoupling from the "west" not that the West really welcomed them in the past ...see the never ending negotiations to join the EU. Causing Erdogan to look "east".

Always remember the US abandoned the Iraqi Kurds after their referendum for independence. How did the Syrian Kurds miss that fact. I do not believe they are that naïve. Hence I wonder how much we see is actually an illusion. The opposite may be true.

Perhaps Erdogan and Assad are secret allies, and some of the Syrian Kurds know this and are actually paving the way for Assad to retake control east of the Euphrates without too much blood shed.

I live in hope that all Syria is returned to its people within it borders including Israel occupied Golan

riffmongous · 10-10-2019 1:24pm

blueshade wrote: »

Americans don't want American troops dying for a war that's nothing to do with them. As far as I'm concerned, fook it, leave em all to it and let them kill each other.

How many Americans have died in this war? Very few (8 according to wiki) because the Americans let the Kurds do the dying for them this time, 11,000 dead by some estimates. Now they are abandoning them to be killed by an American ally.. can't you see how despicable that is? Not to mention just plain nonsensical from pretty much any viewpoint, including anti-war. Considering all the bombing and killing the Americans are responsible for in the rest of the world, they're screwing up one of the rare places that they had actually made more stable

Overheal · 10-10-2019 1:27pm

blueshade wrote: »

Americans don't want American troops dying for a war that's nothing to do with them. As far as I'm concerned, fook it, leave em all to it and let them kill each other.

Speak for yourself...

https://www.mediaite.com/uncategorized/fox-news-reporter-cites-ashamed-special-ops-soldier-serving-with-kurdish-forces-atrocities-are-happening/

Beta Ray Bill · 10-10-2019 1:36pm

lleti wrote: »

Didn't see anyone fighting back v Russia on Ukraines side.

True, Ukraine has no dependable Allies.
Years of switching from Pro Russia to Pro Europe have left them in the middle with no support from anyone.

Ihatewhahabies wrote: »

It will be interesting if Turkey buys Russian military planes, this will confirm that NATO has lost Turkey totally to Russia/China, IMO is true already.

I feel the same, they've already lost Turkey.
The planes will be the final nail in the Coffin. US has said it is now unwilling to sell the F-35 to Turkey, which leaves only Russia to buy from.

Ihatewhahabies wrote: »

Economically Turkey is making serious strides in decoupling from the "west" not that the West really welcomed them in the past ...see the never ending negotiations to join the EU. Causing Erdogan to look "east".

They have so many human rights issues, they'll never be able to join the EU. They still deny the Armenian genocide to this day.
Once they're out of NATO, The EU and US will be able to sanction the hell out of them, the West of the country will lose all it's holiday trade (Huge business for them)..
Yeah they'll still be able to do Business with Russia and to extent China. but they'll be cut off from their closest neighbors and where the closest revenue stream is.

Brussels Sprout · 10-10-2019 1:40pm

blueshade wrote: »

Rwanda anyone? .

You're using an example of where a genocide occurred after a 3rd party force pulled out to recommend that a 3rd party force pulls out.

That makes it sound like you're pro-genocide.

James Brown · 10-10-2019 1:43pm

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Say what you want about Trump, but he’s not a warmonger. His government are undertaking a rapid and strategic withdrawal from the Middle East. They have engineered energy independence on their own soil, and are leaving the geopolitics to the EU, Russia, Turkey, Iran and China.

War is about money as is strategic withdrawal. He didn't do it because he's having a bed in with Melania John and Yoko style.
He left allies to be butchered. Peaceful man.
Wouldn't be surprised if Putin asked him to.

blueshade · 10-10-2019 1:44pm

Overheal wrote: »

Speak for yourself...

https://www.mediaite.com/uncategorized/fox-news-reporter-cites-ashamed-special-ops-soldier-serving-with-kurdish-forces-atrocities-are-happening/

Ask the average working class American how they feel about their young people dying in a war in a place they can't even pronounce and you'll be told they don't want that. Citing an alleged special ops soldier is neither here nor there.

blueshade · 10-10-2019 1:47pm

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

You're using an example of where a genocide occurred after a 3rd party force pulled out to recommend that a 3rd party force pulls out.

That makes it sound like you're pro-genocide.

Ha, sounds like your clutching at straws. The UN sat back and allowed what happened in Rwanda just as they will sit back and do nothing while Turkey bombs the Kurds, well..I say nothing but they'll blame Trump cause well Trump is white and Christian, can't really be calling out the Muslims now can they? I've heard more criticism of Trump than of Erdogan so far, why is that? It's not Trump invading Turkey and bombing the Kurds. Jesus, don't put me in a position where I have to defend Trump.

James Brown · 10-10-2019 2:03pm

blueshade wrote: »

Ask the average working class American how they feel about their young people dying in a war in a place they can't even pronounce and you'll be told they don't want that. Citing an alleged special ops soldier is neither here nor there.

Be fair, if there was money in it Trump would have built a base there ffs.

TheW1zard · 10-10-2019 2:06pm

blueshade wrote: »

Whose selling the weapons to the Saudis?

The same people who are selling to the Turks!

suicide_circus · 10-10-2019 2:34pm

its up to the people of the middle east to get their house in order

10-10-2019 2:48pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

its up to the people of the middle east to get their house in order

Right, so after what Europe did there in the last 100 years, and what US has destabilised there in the last 50 you think that it is ripe for stable government?

You reap what you sow and the west has been interfering there for far too long to simply wash hands

suicide_circus · 10-10-2019 2:59pm

so the solution is to continue meddling until....until when?

there's over 10,000 years of civilization in the region, 100 years is a drop in the ocean.

ollkiller · 10-10-2019 3:03pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

its up to the people of the middle east to get their house in order

Ya so if you're in your gaff and lads from another estate keep coming in and thrashing your gaff it's up to you to get your house in order. It's not their fault at all. That sound about right ya.

ollkiller · 10-10-2019 3:03pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

so the solution is to continue meddling until....until when?

there's over 10,000 years of civilization in the region, 100 years is a drop in the ocean.

One solution is not to let the people you've been fighting with for the last few year's to get massacred. Just a small thing like that.

suicide_circus · 10-10-2019 3:04pm

ollkiller wrote: »

Ya so if you're in your gaff and lads from another estate keep coming in and thrashing your gaff it's up to you to get your house in order. It's not their fault at all. That sound about right ya.

worst analogy ever.

suicide_circus · 10-10-2019 3:06pm

ollkiller wrote: »

One solution is not to let the people you've been fighting with for the last few year's to get massacred. Just a small thing like that.

look i'm sure whoever replaces Trumpy will flood the region with troops again and then everyone will be happy. oh, wait...

ollkiller · 10-10-2019 3:10pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

look i'm sure whoever replaces Trumpy will flood the region with troops again and then everyone will be happy. oh, wait...

It's got nothing to do with flooding the troops in the area. It's pretty simple. I agree with pulling american troops out of the middle east. But do it in the right way. Are you seriously telling me America could not have stopped Turkey from staging this invasion. Against people who have fought alongside them against a common enemy for years. All it will do will be to create more terrorists.

Sure feck it, who cares about people dying for tin pot dictators looking to grab more land for whatever political/religious crap that will get them more votes.

lleti · 10-10-2019 3:13pm

The middle east is an absolute mess and will never have peace. All these religions and ethnic groups had power over all the same land at different stages.

ollkiller · 10-10-2019 3:14pm

lleti wrote: »

The middle east is an absolute mess and will never have peace. All these religions and ethnic groups had power over all the same land at different stages.

Well aren't you the Oracle himself. Back in the 1980's could you imagine peace in Northern Ireland. Sure why bother doing anything so.

suicide_circus · 10-10-2019 3:16pm

of course this sudden withdrawal is stupid. i'm making a more general point about how America is expected to keep the peace all over the world but is also maligned for doing so.

ollkiller · 10-10-2019 3:19pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

of course this sudden withdrawal is stupid. i'm making a more general point about how America is expected to keep the peace all over the world but is also maligned for doing so.

You have a point there. it shouldn't be the world police. It got itself into this position by trying to be world police for years. If the new policy is to roll back from this just do it the right way. Any withdrawal is going to have negative consequences but this type of withdrawal is just stupid 101.

Beta Ray Bill · 10-10-2019 3:33pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

its up to the people of the middle east to get their house in order

I'd be inclined to agree, but unfortunately there are a number of contributing factors which are making this nearly next to impossible.

They are:
Iran/Saudi proxy war - This has been going on for years now, and nearly every war in ME can trace support back to one of these regional powers. Note: Iran is winning.
Arab Spring - triggering event for a lot of changes/war. Libya and Syria are still in a state of Civil war as a result.
Foreign supply of arms - Proving ground for weapons, as the area is constantly at war. What better place to safely test your weapons?
Foreign support of political leaders - Sadam used to be a US friendly enemy, as was Iran at one point. One thing to note though is that removing puppets when they are no longer useful or keeping the ones that are useful is proving more and more difficult to do. probably because of social media and faster ways of communicating.
Oil - The fact that the whole area is sitting on the worlds most easily accessible oil supply and the worlds oil dependent countries want to keep them fighting. If they were to ever unite, it would basically be the end of Petrodollar recycling. Note: US invaded Iraq when they began to sell oil in Euros, and on the day the US declared victory in Iraq, they went back to selling oil in Dollars.
A stark warning to all others in the region.

4068ac1elhodqr · 10-10-2019 4:06pm

Has no one mentioned that a primary reason for all this is that he wants to send back about 2m refugees back into Syria now the dust has settled down somewhat?
Also likely to help with public support, fiscal book balancing and his future re-election, they may be considered a neighbourly burden to Turkey.

Anyway the potential future candidate for EU-membership has no issue saying what he thinks/wants:

Harvey Weinstein · 10-10-2019 4:12pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Right, so after what Europe did there in the last 100 years, and what US has destabilised there in the last 50 you think that it is ripe for stable government?

You reap what you sow and the west has been interfering there for far too long to simply wash hands

So keep interfering then? It wasn't that long ago when most people in the West wanted the US to withdraw from interfering in the Middle East. Now they want them to stay..they can't win.

ToBeFrank123 · 10-10-2019 4:17pm

Trump saying the Kurds didn't help at D-Day.

What a pr*ck.

They've lost 4 times the number of Americans killed on D-Day fighting ISIS.

I'm convinced Iraq and most of Syria would be overrun by ISIS if it wasn't for the Kurds fighting and putting themselves in harms way.

You cannot win a war with airpower alone. You need boots on the ground.

Another shameful episode in this president's term and US history in general.

ollkiller · 10-10-2019 4:18pm

Harvey Weinstein wrote: »

So keep interfering then? It wasn't that long ago when most people in the West wanted the US to withdraw from interfering in the Middle East. Now they want them to stay..they can't win.

Yes USA should remove their troops from the region but do it in the right way, not the one that leaves the people that fought with you against a common enemy to be rife for slaughter.

Harvey Weinstein · 10-10-2019 4:19pm

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Trump saying the Kurds didn't help at D-Day.

What a pr*ck.

They've lost 4 times the number of Americans killed on D-Day fighting ISIS.

I'm convinced Iraq and most of Syria would be overrun by ISIS if it wasn't for the Kurds fighting and putting themselves in harms way.

You cannot win a war with airpower alone. You need boots on the ground.

Another shameful episode in this president's term and US history in general.

Weren't ISIS themselves proxy warriors for the US and Israel?

ToBeFrank123 · 10-10-2019 4:20pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

so the solution is to continue meddling until....until when?

there's over 10,000 years of civilization in the region, 100 years is a drop in the ocean.

ISIS were a massively destabilising group in the region and the Kurds handed them their asses and brought some stability back to that region of Syria and Northern Iraq.

Those gains will be replaced by instability again.

ToBeFrank123 · 10-10-2019 4:20pm

Harvey Weinstein wrote: »

Weren't ISIS themselves proxy warriors for the US and Israel?

Take of the tin foil hat, its clearly affecting your thinking.

James Brown · 10-10-2019 4:21pm

Harvey Weinstein wrote: »

So keep interfering then? It wasn't that long ago when most people in the West wanted the US to withdraw from interfering in the Middle East. Now they want them to stay..they can't win.

They should never have started any oil wars. They created the Iran, Afghanistan, Iraq etc. we have today.
Getting allies to rise up and then leaving them hanging is dirty.

Gatling · 10-10-2019 4:28pm

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Take of the tin foil hat, its clearly affecting your thinking.

This was widely claimed even russian media went as far to claim America was flying tens or thousands of Isis fighters into Syria using airforce cargo planes.

Remember when putin made claim's that he could prove erdokan was supporting Isis along with members of his family ,
Next thing we heard was a coup attempt which was uncovered by russian intelligence services erdokan and Putin became best of mates

jmayo · 10-10-2019 4:46pm

ollkiller wrote: »

Yes USA should remove their troops from the region but do it in the right way, not the one that leaves the people that fought with you against a common enemy to be rife for slaughter.

Do most people realise what amount of US troops we are talking about being in that area?

It is at most in the hundreds because they are special forces, observers, trainers.
It is not the usual grunts on the grounds.
Even so there was no way that pric* in Turkey would risk attacking while there were any Americans on the ground.

But it is not the first time the yanks have turned tail.
The Montagnard tribes in Vietnam suffered a similar fate, although this case is much worse in that at least the US president of the time didn't contact the Vietnamese leader and give him his blessing.

And it is not the troops on the ground looking for an out, they have actually done the real hearts and minds job, embedded themselves with the locals and worked and fought with them.
It is always the higher ups, the adminstration that pulls the rug out from under them.

trump is truly an odious individual.

And this is not playing well to some republicans nor to military who he now makes look like complete bast***s.

ToBeFrank123 · 10-10-2019 5:06pm

Not the first time the US screwed the Kurds. They encouraged them to rise up against Saddam in 1991 but were given no help in doing so.

Odhinn · 10-10-2019 5:10pm

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Not the first time the US screwed the Kurds. They encouraged them to rise up against Saddam in 1991 but were given no help in doing so.

The worst was when kissinger threw them to the wolves in the 1970's. Thousands died at the hands of Saddam.

Brussels Sprout · 10-10-2019 5:27pm

Daniel Noisy Firefighter wrote: »

Also likely to help with public support, fiscal book balancing and his future re-election, they may be considered a neighbourly burden to Turkey.

I wouldn't worry about that

mcmoustache · 10-10-2019 6:07pm

ollkiller wrote: »

Yes USA should remove their troops from the region but do it in the right way, not the one that leaves the people that fought with you against a common enemy to be rife for slaughter.

I don't understand how people aren't getting this. There is a huge difference between a sensible withdrawal and an impulsive evacuation.

Simms · 10-10-2019 6:23pm

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

True, Ukraine has no dependable Allies

Eurovision

Liberta Per Gli Ultra · 10-10-2019 7:19pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

of course this sudden withdrawal is stupid. i'm making a more general point about how America is expected to keep the peace all over the world but is also maligned for doing so.

What a load of bollocks, who expects a narcissistic serial killer like the US to keep the peace? The US invades and steals under the guise of "democracy spreading" and "defending American interests" and then f*cks off when it suits.

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

Oil - The fact that the whole area is sitting on the worlds most easily accessible oil supply and the worlds oil dependent countries want to keep them fighting. If they were to ever unite, it would basically be the end of Petrodollar recycling. Note: US invaded Iraq when they began to sell oil in Euros, and on the day the US declared victory in Iraq, they went back to selling oil in Dollars.
A stark warning to all others in the region.

Bingo.

blueshade · 10-10-2019 7:26pm

ollkiller wrote: »

Yes USA should remove their troops from the region but do it in the right way, not the one that leaves the people that fought with you against a common enemy to be rife for slaughter.

So how long exactly are they supposed to stay there? A year, 5 years, 10 years? Erdogan has wanted to invade for a long time and it wouldn't matter how long he had to wait as soon as the Americans moved out he would move out. Only a year or so ago Angela Merkel wanted Europe to pay him 3 billion euro to take refugees and to speed up Turkey's membership of the EU.

20Wheel · 10-10-2019 7:58pm

Nato is bonkers. US threatening Turkey.

Europe cant rely on that. Pesco is the right way.

ToBeFrank123 · 10-10-2019 9:25pm

Refugees returning to Syria would likely have to be forcibly repatriated by Turkey and it would create a humanitarean disaster which would also include the Kurds.

Overheal · 10-10-2019 9:43pm

Sen. Lindsey Graham who has been very against the withdrawal publicly got prank called by some Russians posing as Turkish diplomats - they got Graham to sing about how the Kurds were a threat to them.

https://www.mediaite.com/politics/lindsey-graham-got-prank-called-by-russians-posing-as-a-turkish-official-and-called-the-kurds-a-threat/

What a cretin.

Limpy · 10-10-2019 10:27pm

Turkey has the EU by the balls. He can do as he wishes is Kurd controlled Eastern Syria. The US is so afraid of losing Turkey to Russian influence that it will tolerate the offence.

"They didn't fight with us in Normandy" haha that's an unbelievable statement to make about your supposed ally.

Bibi would quickly change this stance on Assad/Iran if the choice was them or Turkish backed jihadis.

AMKC · 10-10-2019 10:53pm

20Wheel wrote: »

Nato is bonkers. US threatening Turkey.

Europe cant rely on that. Pesco is the right way.

I agree with that. How can NATO still let Turkey be a member? They should be kicked out of NATO. If Europe had its own army now it could have been sent in to protect the Kurds but instead all Europe can do now is stand by and watch as poor innocent Kurds are slaughtered by a cowardless dctator.

ollkiller · 10-10-2019 10:54pm

blueshade wrote: »

So how long exactly are they supposed to stay there? A year, 5 years, 10 years? Erdogan has wanted to invade for a long time and it wouldn't matter how long he had to wait as soon as the Americans moved out he would move out. Only a year or so ago Angela Merkel wanted Europe to pay him 3 billion euro to take refugees and to speed up Turkey's membership of the EU.

You quoted my post with this reply but my reply is simply to read my post that you quoted. I said I agree with removing troops but not like this. Absolute lunacy.

Gatling · 10-10-2019 11:12pm

AMKC wrote: »

I agree with that. How can NATO still let Turkey be a member? They should be kicked out of NATO. If Europe had its own army now it could have been sent in to protect the Kurds but instead all Europe can do now is stand by and watch as poor innocent Kurds are slaughtered by a cowardless dctator.

They are caught in between Assad and iran ,Putin on one side and erdokan on the other hand , talking
Unless NATO says we're putting forces in to protect the Kurds Which would put NATO on a war footing , which could trigger aggression across eastern Europe ,

Quantum Erasure · 10-10-2019 11:17pm

Trump via Twitter:

We defeated 100% of the ISIS Caliphate and no longer have any troops in the area under attack by Turkey, in Syria. We did our job perfectly! Now Turkey is attacking the Kurds, who have been fighting each other for 200 years....

....We have one of three choices: Send in thousands of troops and win Militarily, hit Turkey very hard Financially and with Sanctions, or mediate a deal between Turkey and the Kurds!

mediate a deal? would it not have been an idea to think about that possibility before pulling out? Somehow, I can't see the Kurds agreeing to that

Lackey · 10-10-2019 11:17pm

ollkiller wrote: »

I agree with removing troops but not like this. Absolute lunacy.

I genuinely don't see any circumstances at all, that will turn these basket cases of countries into civilisations where they don't want to all kill each other.
Rule each other or subjugate their people and their neighbours.
No matter how its done, no one can solve this, only the countries themselves.
I'm not being confrontational when I ask how would you fix this so the troops can be removed?

Overheal · 10-10-2019 11:47pm

To add insult to injury - the Kurds DID fight in WWII

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2019/10/10/actually-president-trump-some-kurds-did-fight-world-war-ii/

Turkish forces have started bombing and attacking Kurdish people in Syria

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