Sub 2.50 - and beyond!

Peterx wrote: »

difficult for camels in the bible but the oul octopus manages the needle trick on youtube

and lo it would appear that this year there are plenty of late spaces opening up for the Warriors with their highly efficient transfers messageboard on their website.

I'm hoping to get a late Warriors entry myself as we'll be in the area that Friday for a wedding. I am doing my one indulgence race this Saturday (a multisport 4 hour race) followed by the Dublin series 10 miler and 1/2 marathon with two 10k races in the plan for weeks 3 and 2 out from raceday.

not something i expected to find in here, but that was something else, far play to the octupus. i'll be thinking of him at mile 22, when the odds are stacked against me. .

I did a 10 mile race recently as a replacement for my PMP session. Like you, I find it very hard to stick with these sessions when running alone. Huge advantage of pacing off other runners and water stations. Planning on doing my final PMP session at the Moone Kilomarathon.

The advantage of doing these sessions outside of a race setting is that you can do your warm-up miles and then kick into the PMP segment whenever you want. Naturally in a race setting you need to start with everyone else, and if you want to run the full race distance at PMP you need to go from a standing start, with any warmup miles having been done before getting to the startline.

However, this is no bad thing as that replicates exactly how most of us run a marathon (straight from standing start to marathon pace, or faster as is often the case!).

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

While I have seen this recommended quite a few times, it does not work for me. There is no way I can pin a number onto my chest and then deliberately run slower (I tried )

TBH running 10-13 miles at MP pace should not be difficult even on your own.

well i have never tried it so your possibly right but i'm hesistent to go out and try and fail, know it would be easier in a race environment. i'm very uncompetitive so will have no problem getting passed by people i'm usually ahead off.

would i be wrong in saying that the slower your predicted marathon time, the easier it is to do a PMP session.

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

My own experience is that 12+ miles at pmp is always tough. If you're not finding it difficult, you may not be doing it fast enough (or are someone who fades in marathons).

Me and fade? The second half of the course was way tougher, that's all :rolleyes:
Actually I do have quite a few marathons with very even splits to my name.

I generally find that 13 miles at MP sounds very daunting and I'm not exactly looking forward to it, but once I get going I'm able to get the session done.

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

Me and fade? The second half of the course was way tougher, that's all :rolleyes:
Actually I do have quite a few marathons with very even splits to my name.

I generally find that 13 miles at MP sounds very daunting and I'm not exactly looking forward to it, but once I get going I'm able to get the session done.

My response was a little tongue in cheek. I reckon if one trains for a marathon that is within one's grasp (which is a good thing) then 13 miles at marathon pace should be pretty achievable. It is after all, a sub-optimal pace half marathon. When you get closer to the limit of your potential though, the gap between your half marathon pace and marathon pace is much narrower, so it should in theory, be tougher. In other words, you have years of improvements to make, and I am at the end of my running curve. I've run a number of marathons where I was probably quite over-optimistic about my targets though, and so probably found long pmp runs harder than they should have been.

The difference in pace between a marathon and half marathon based on some round number targets (according to McMillan):
5 hours: 34 seconds/mile
4 hours: 28 seconds/mile
3 hours: 20 seconds/mile
2 hours 30: 18 seconds/mile
2 hours 04: 14 seconds/mile

Perhaps the above is meaningless as it's all relative, but I ran a half marathon recently at marathon pace, and was just 40 seconds off of my half marathon PB, which certainly had a psychological impact.

RunForestRun wrote: »

By the way, something in one of the posts above struck me, the idea that you should throw yourself straight into MP in a race.. Personally, I don't actually agree with that. I've found in the last couple of marathons I've done that its worked out much better when I take it out at MP + 30-60 seconds for the first mile or so, then increase the pace gradually. In my most recent half marathon, first few miles were 6:20ish pace, before averaging under 6:00 for the last 10, so in my opinion, you actually should go easy in the first mile or two.

I think it might be down to personal preference. I generally start slowly and try to either ramp it up or at the very least not get slower!

Passing lads for the last third of an event is mentally very positive (although there can be false complacency as you yourself might not be moving quick enough for target time despite passing all these lads)

I expect to find 13 miles at marathon pace hard enough in training, if it's easy you are possibly being too soft with your marathon target?

happygoose wrote: »

Why is it so, i.e. hard to run 13/15 PMP in training when you can end up running 26 of them in the race. Is it fatigue/taper?

Partly, but it's always easier to run hard in a race compared to training.

RayCun wrote: »

Partly, but it's always easier to run hard in a race compared to training.

Exactly. The race environment helps hugely. But there are many other factors:
1) You do pmp runs in your training build-up. i.e. you are not yet race-ready. A 12 mile pmp run might take place when you are only half way through your training/development.
2) pmp runs tend to happen at or close to peak mileage weeks. A 12 mile pmp run at the end of a hundred mile week (which includes other tough sessions) is always going to be far tougher than the first 12 miles of your marathon.
3) Taper is designed to bring you to the start line with no niggles, muscle pain or tightness.
4) Gels and drinks that you normally forgo during training.
5) Carb-loading (or whatever your dietary preference may be)
6) Motivation: One is a training run; one is a goal race.
7) Adrenaline.
8) Competition.

RayCun wrote: »

A lot of people do half marathons as PMP runs (or 10k races as tempo runs for that matter) and I wonder if its a good idea. I suppose the physical effects of running at that pace will stand to you, but maybe you don't get the mental benefits of toughing the run out on your own?

I'd agree. It's hard to beat the mental and physical hardship you go through when heading out for a pmp run on your own, however, pmp runs are also a form of simulation where you might want to reproduce the variables of a race environment. Still I suppose you could use tune-up races rather than pmp runs to better hone your race 'practise'. Probably a mixture of both worlds.

Can't say I'm exactly brimming with confidence at the moment, but I suppose that's usual for this stage in proceedings.

Of the three key elements, I'm ticking the boxes for two of them - overall mileage and long runs. Unfortunately the PMP/faster pace box remains unticked. Have a total of 22 miles PMP in the legs (over two runs - 10 miles & 12 miles), and whilst the tempo stuff was good in June/July, August wasn't amazing and abandoned a session today.

Still 34 days to go, two of which are really important - Athlone Half next weekend (sub-80 would really push up the confidence) and a 15 mile PMP the following weekend (completing that would leave me feeling a lot more comfortable).

thewolf_ie wrote: »

I booked loads of races before I started or even seen the P&D 18 week plan and all bar one of the PMP runs landed on races very suitable. What a coincidence hay. It really helps.

It is good alright, but on the flipside it can be benefitial to run some PMP Long runs outside of races too.

As if they are all within a race environment when you get to your actual goal race you don't really get the same "race adrenaline" in terms of your pace as all the MP training has been done in races up to that point.

If that makes sense.

did my first race as a training run, half marathon, avg pace 6:25.
tough but really enjoyed catching people when i upped the tempo.

Peterx wrote: »

It's funny, small comments can affect you when you are already tired from a the training load. A friend casually asked how important was this marathon to me and within two days I decided to take a week off running. Now obviously it's not that simple but I was getting increasingly wrecked anyway.

Had to take the last week off, unfortunately just had too much real world demands on my time and a 31km run at 3 hour marathon pace on a Saturday (after a late night at a wedding on the Friday) capped off a hectic couple of weeks. I was like a broken man on the Monday "recovery" run before deciding to take the week off.

So obviously behind target and I'm not hugely confident of running 42km at 6.25 pace but race day adrenaline will help there I presume.

On the plus side any niggles will have had a week to settle down.

Dublin half marathon coming up and I think any time quicker then PMP will do the finest!

this is my first time following a schedule, a friend of mine drew it up & i just follow blindly, it's a great relief not having to work out paces etc on the generic plans. i train alone.
Now saying that i do get a little worried when i see the training that people with similiar targets are doing.
mileage is low, think of hand 65 is the highest & that was a freak week most are hovering between 50 - 60.
longest run has been 15.5 miles.
i've never done a session where i was completely wrecked, actually that mcmillian 10km plan was far harder. always end a session where i think i could have done more.
i've done a good bit of training just under T pace alright.
this could end in tears but so far i've got a half marathon PB & i'm actually enjoying the training, remember looking at the calender in june thinking, that these few weeks were going to be brutal.
i do my long runs over trails & look forward to sunday mornings.
so maybe there's something to it, by taking it gradually, there's a lot of us on here, that are trying to balance training with a hectic life & i don't know how some people do it.
it's an experiment anyway, i might be cursing my easy approach at mile 22:o

I think it's just a tough time mentally, a mid term bump if you will. Training is half way there and the body is getting the effect of the training stress and the benefits are still to acrue.
At least you toughed it out so well done!

It's the 7 week itch (for us DCM folk anyway). We're at least half way through the training program, greatest intensity of training awaits, and still far enough away that it's difficult to start looking forward to the event. Take heart, most programs will start dropping the mileage in the next 3 weeks, and taper-proper will start a week or two later. We just have to slog through another few weeks.

Tune-up races are a super way of breaking the training monotony, boosting confidence (or re-aligning expectations), and getting a bit of racing environment practise at the same time. Admittedly, I've gone a little over the top, with 5 x 10ks, 2 x half marathons, a marathon, and a kilomarathon in the run up to DCM. This will hopefully be my 6th sub 2:50 marathon, and fingers crossed my second sub 2:40 marathon. I'm optimistic about the sub 2:45, but I reckon the sub 2:40 is a bit of a coin-flip. It's tough continuing the training slog, when you're not getting feedback that you're improving.

sub3wannabe wrote: »

I'm starting to get cocky and think I could bag a 2:49:xx vs a 2:59:xx. Did I here somewhere that pacers are for every 10 minute interval as opposed to the usual 15? Does that apply once they go below 3 hours I wonder?

Presume you're talking about Dublin Marathon, in which case fastest pacers are for 3 hours. You're by yourself once you go beyond that point!

sub3wannabe wrote: »

I'm 25, been running seriously for 3 years and will hopefully achieve sub 3 in DCM this year. My mate laid me 100/1 that I could line up in the Tokyo Olympic marathon. Is this in anyway achievable would you guys think? I'm willing to do anything it takes (legally of course)

If your motivation is get an Olympic qualification because of a bet with your mate, then, I'm thinking it's not very likely. To achieve this kind of target takes the kind of motivation you don't get from a wager with a friend.

It's not beyond the realms of possibility (Barry Minnock recently completed a marathon just outside of Irish qualification times), but it's outside of touching distance for most.

sub3wannabe wrote: »

39:46 mate. Felt very comfortable. I just enjoyed the experience running with Sonia and just kicked at the 9k mark for the craic.

If you can take 10 minutes off of your 10k time, it's definitely worth a crack!