Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

Greaney · 10-12-2019 10:04am

Deleted User wrote: »

Nobody is anti mass transit here. Most are anti waste of money though

For the money to get Athenry to Tuam up and running, you would put in bus lanes all the way from Tuam to Galway, Moycullen to Galway, Loughrea to Galway etc and move a hell of a lot more people a hell of a lot faster

As for people not wanting to use buses, Burkes alone puts that silly argument to rest with their schedule which reflects the real demand

I understand that you don't want to see money wasted, and I don't think you're going to be convinced by any arguments at all. The truth is we have to make big investments in the country to keep up to par with the changes happening around us. We failed to do this after the boom in the 70's and our lack of infrastructure meant we not only failed to attract more Foreign direct investment, but companies that were here closed. Furthermore, in trying to catch up with the rest of the first world, regular workers were taxed out the wazoo to pay for investment and it led to a protracted recession through the 80's. This up coming meeting is about EU funding so I'm assuming that the burden won't end up on the Irish worker.

I live in a town with a train and it's terrific. but to address some more of your other points

1) This issue isn't just about Athenry & Tuam, it's about Claremorris, Ballyglunin, and after that Sligo etc.... The main Cities on the West coast of the country are not linked!
2) Not all commuters go to Galway... as I've said in earlier threads, Athenry & Tuam are themselves hubs for surrounding areas
3) There are over 50 buses a day between Tuam & Galway, for example. That's a lot more traffic on Galway city's roads, even if you build more bus lanes into Galway. In Galway we are blessed with a train that goes right to the city centre.
4) I travel regularly on the train between Athenry to Galway, mostly on trains coming from Limerick, and we're now finding those trains don't have enough seats by Athenry. They already need more carriages. The service was opened during the bust so it was slow to take off, but now that the Ghost estates in Craughwell are lived in... it's very busy.
5) Train is much more comfortable. I called buses 'The vomit comet' because long journeys make some people travel sick. A huge amount of folk travel to attend UCHG for cancer treatments, Kidney dialysis etc. and the train is their preferred mode over a bus, say.
6) Those that are arguing for double tracking between Galway & Athenry are spot on. The Athenry service is too expensive and makes huge profits for Iarnrod Éireann, it's only €3 more to go to Ballinasloe.

Isambard · 10-12-2019 10:33am

Muckyboots wrote: »

You think people would want to get a train from Derry to Cork? One that meanders through south Mayo and north Galway with over 16 road crossings in less than a 20km stretch, reducing the average speed to less than 50kmph? I think Sinn Fein should be aiming much higher than that if they think they come back from the EU with a 1/2 billion euros in their back pockets for the West of Ireland.

well of course if someone did really want to take the train from Derry to Cork, there's nothing to stop them doing that now, with changes , (and if a demand were to be shown , a through train wouldn't be impossible). I'm betting no-one has actually done that journey recently.

Sligo eye · 10-12-2019 1:39pm

Isambard wrote: »

well of course if someone did really want to take the train from Derry to Cork, there's nothing to stop them doing that now, with changes , (and if a demand were to be shown , a through train wouldn't be impossible). I'm betting no-one has actually done that journey recently.

Actually I have.

Sligo eye · 10-12-2019 1:48pm

Greaney wrote: »

Indeed, it should be about planning for the future.

1)The commuting population that work in Galway city but live in the county is now at it's highest at 50%
2) The top 3 commuter towns in the county are Oranmore, Tuam & Athenry in that order, of course they should be linked.
3) Athenry is an Education hub with three secondary schools and students coming from all directions to attend them.
4) Athenry is also a 'disabled services' hub, as is Tuam (with an Irish Wheelchair Assoc. regional office)
5) Many post offices have closed since 'decades ago' (eg; Ballyglunin) so many of our citizens who don't/cannot drive need infrastructure to link them to vital public services
6) This issue is bigger than Galway, there are rail advocacy groups all over the Island, hoping to link Derry to Cork with all our airports along the way.

And that most certainly is worth planning for.....

Delighted to see this post. The Derry campaign is certainly taking off and those of us who are also involved in it are very much aware of the need to get the Western seaboard properly rail connected to shift infrastructure focus away from the Belfast-Dublin axis.

In many respects the greenway anti rail campaigning has galvanised people - the silent majority - to re-examine our love affair with the private car and skeletal bus services and rethink how our towns and cities are planned.

The greenway campaign may have keyboard warriors on their side but we have something much stronger - cool heads and serious engineering and planning experts who have a clear vision as to what Ireland should look like over the next 40 years.

mayo.mick · 10-12-2019 1:50pm

Sligo eye wrote: »

Actually I have.

Out of interest, how much did the train journey cost you, and how long did it take?

Sligo eye · 10-12-2019 2:06pm

mayo.mick wrote: »

Out of interest, how much did the train journey cost you, and how long did it take?

€19.99 for the Cork to Dublin leg, £20 for Dublin-Derry via Belfast.

I started on the 7am train to Heuston, got there about 930am. Took the Luas to Connolly. Got the 1120 Enterprise and changed at Lanyon Place. Arrived in Derry at 1622.

It’s a long day but I was able to work on the train, get my breakfast and lunch.

Isambard · 10-12-2019 2:40pm

Sligo eye wrote: »

€19.99 for the Cork to Dublin leg, £20 for Dublin-Derry via Belfast.

I started on the 7am train to Heuston, got there about 930am. Took the Luas to Connolly. Got the 1120 Enterprise and changed at Lanyon Place. Arrived in Derry at 1622.

It’s a long day but I was able to work on the train, get my breakfast and lunch.

well done you !...the exception that proves the rule :-)

end of the road · 10-12-2019 2:44pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Nobody is anti mass transit here. Most are anti waste of money though

For the money to get Athenry to Tuam up and running, you would put in bus lanes all the way from Tuam to Galway, Moycullen to Galway, Loughrea to Galway etc and move a hell of a lot more people a hell of a lot faster

As for people not wanting to use buses, Burkes alone puts that silly argument to rest with their schedule which reflects the real demand

you might be able to get in a few more bus lanes but moving a lot more people a lot faster is very debatible when you consider traffic and actual attractiveness over something rail based.
berks alone, nor any other bus company, does not put to bed this supposed argument that people don't want to use buses, because no such argument has been made.
the actual argument that has been made, and it does seem to have been shown to be the case, is that something rail based is more likely to attract more people then bus based transport, because bus based transport cannot compete with the aspects that make a good rail based system attractive.
berks schedule only reflects the demand for their services, not for public transport as a whole. basing demand on the basis of a bus company sounds like something of the 1950s/60s tbh.

user1842 · 10-12-2019 3:00pm

Sorry if I have missed it on the thread but how much is the estimated cost of opening the Athenry to Tuam section?

Looking at google maps, all the line still exists, it is a relatively straight line and I would count only about two real crossings to either close, bridge or underpass.

The biggest cost would just be the replacement of the track or am I totally wrong?

I suppose the cost to also renovate Tuam station.

Isambard · 10-12-2019 3:35pm

It cost €103 miilion from Ennis to Athenry, some years back if that's a guide.

user1842 · 10-12-2019 3:55pm

Isambard wrote: »

It cost €103 miilion from Ennis to Athenry, some years back if that's a guide.

So that is double the distance and has more stations. One could thus assume that Athenry to Tuam would be well under €50 million.

what_traffic · 10-12-2019 4:18pm

end of the road wrote: »

berks schedule only reflects the demand for their services, not for public transport as a whole. basing demand on the basis of a bus company sounds like something of the 1950s/60s tbh.

Why are you calling them "Berks"?

Burkes Bus are providing alot of public transport options for people in Galway County/South Mayo. As demand increased - they have provided more and more services over the years. If we had more bus lanes/corridors/gates on approach to Galway City - can only see more people availing of these services.

Isambard · 10-12-2019 4:50pm

user1842 wrote: »

So that is double the distance and has more stations. One could thus assume that Athenry to Tuam would be well under €50 million.

you really think so? Even if it was, €50 million for a train (possibly) full of passengers morning and night that could get there quicker in a coach on the brand new motorway?/ value for money? I think not.

Muckyboots · 10-12-2019 5:11pm

user1842 wrote: »

So that is double the distance and has more stations. One could thus assume that Athenry to Tuam would be well under €50 million.

€50M???...... anyway if they were going to put a new track on the old alignment, the plan was always to abandon the old Tuam station and erect a new automated turnstile unmanned shell structure and new carpark south of Tuam, which would make sense to be fair.

user1842 · 10-12-2019 5:13pm

Isambard wrote: »

you really think so? Even if it was, €50 million for a train (possibly) full of passengers morning and night that could get there quicker in a coach on the brand new motorway?/ value for money? I think not.

I have no clue on the cost, hence my question.

It is also a good question on what the max speed of Athenry to Tuam rail link could be?

Could it beat the motorway, it looks like a straight enough line.

serfboard · 10-12-2019 7:23pm

user1842 wrote: »

It is also a good question on what the max speed of Athenry to Tuam rail link could be?

Could it beat the motorway, it looks like a straight enough line.

It could yeah, I hear they're thinking of a TGV for that stretch ... :rolleyes:

user1842 · 10-12-2019 7:33pm

serfboard wrote: »

It could yeah, I hear they're thinking of a TGV for that stretch ... :rolleyes:

Well that's very forward thinking by Irish rail, im impressed.

end of the road · 10-12-2019 7:46pm

what_traffic wrote: »

Why are you calling them "Berks"?

Burkes Bus are providing alot of public transport options for people in Galway County/South Mayo. As demand increased - they have provided more and more services over the years. If we had more bus lanes/corridors/gates on approach to Galway City - can only see more people availing of these services.

so what?
they aren't doing it out of the goodness of their heart, they are doing it because obviously it's profitable for them. they are a commercial business, not a charity.
and i would reccan something rail based could get even more users as long as the route is properly scoped out.

Isambard wrote: »

you really think so? Even if it was, €50 million for a train (possibly) full of passengers morning and night that could get there quicker in a coach on the brand new motorway?/ value for money? I think not.

actually yes . train can carry those passengers with 1 driver per set of vehicles, and it means less cost on continuous road expansion which is probably no longer justifiable around galway now.
traffic is also growing in galway, the city apparently has serious congestion, a coach on the motor way assuming it has to go to the city isn't going to remain that bit quicker indefinitely. even if it stays on the motor way from it's start to end, it may get to the stage that the serious congestion galway apparently has might spill over, in turn possibly effecting it.
so galway is going to have to start having rail based transport to put in, it's the only way to really make a massive dint.

serfboard · 10-12-2019 7:55pm

user1842 wrote: »

Well that's very forward thinking by Irish rail, im impressed.

Even more impressive when the stop at Ballyglunin is taken into account!

Oh yes, I can see it now - a hush descends on the platform as the hundreds of passengers in Ballyglunin wait to board their TGV to Galway.

Isambard · 10-12-2019 9:41pm

end of the road wrote: »

so what?
they aren't doing it out of the goodness of their heart, they are doing it because obviously it's profitable for them. they are a commercial business, not a charity.
and i would reccan something rail based could get even more users as long as the route is properly scoped out.

actually yes . train can carry those passengers with 1 driver per set of vehicles, and it means less cost on continuous road expansion which is probably no longer justifiable around galway now.
traffic is also growing in galway, the city apparently has serious congestion, a coach on the motor way assuming it has to go to the city isn't going to remain that bit quicker indefinitely. even if it stays on the motor way from it's start to end, it may get to the stage that the serious congestion galway apparently has might spill over, in turn possibly effecting it.
so galway is going to have to start having rail based transport to put in, it's the only way to really make a massive dint.

i
d contend it is likely that one coach with one driver may suffice

what_traffic · 11-12-2019 4:43pm

end of the road wrote: »

so what?
they aren't doing it out of the goodness of their heart, they are doing it because obviously it's profitable for them. they are a commercial business, not a charity.

What..... so you are calling Burkes Bus - "Berks" because they are a commercial business and not a charity. Here was me thinking it was because you did not want it as a search term in the thread

ShaneC1600 · 16-12-2019 6:17pm

If this rail review returns a verdict that there is no economical case for a railway on the western rail corridor is the greenway a given then? Because of the limited width due to the single line profile of the corridor will there be massive civil costs widening the embankments for the greenway or does it go in the 5ft?

Isambard · 16-12-2019 6:48pm

the 5 foot is what they want. There is nothing to say the cycleway has to go on the top of the embankment though. anywhere within the boundary fence would be feasible
.

ShaneC1600 · 16-12-2019 6:52pm

Isambard wrote: »

the 5 foot is what they want. There is nothing to say the cycleway has to go on the top of the embankment though. anywhere within the boundary fence would be feasible
.

For cost reasons I see the benefit in the 5ft alright. I wonder is it done anywhere else in the 5ft? Was Midleton to Youghal line single track?

Isambard · 16-12-2019 6:58pm

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

For cost reasons I see the benefit in the 5ft alright. I wonder is it done anywhere else in the 5ft? Was Midleton to Youghal line single track?

on the track centre is usual as it is claimed that the ballast makes a good foundation. I believe what ballast there was has sunk into the mud long ago.

Midleton to Youghal was single track

dowlingm · 16-12-2019 8:45pm

Deleted User wrote: »

It would also need to take a more direct route, the days when the station needed to go through the middle of a town are long gone, one connecting bus to the town centre & a P+R system is whats needed these days.

If a bus is on offer, I'm sure some people with existing mainline stations remote from the town like Charleville might like the same thing

L1011 · 17-12-2019 1:02am

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

If this rail review returns a verdict that there is no economical case for a railway on the western rail corridor is the greenway a given then? Because of the limited width due to the single line profile of the corridor will there be massive civil costs widening the embankments for the greenway or does it go in the 5ft?

No - because we'll have ten years of people trying to argue reasons why they believe the review is wrong based on [insert nonsense here]. Just look at the previous threads here to see what will turn up.

ShaneC1600 · 17-12-2019 9:04am

L1011 wrote: »

No - because we'll have ten years of people trying to argue reasons why they believe the review is wrong based on [insert nonsense here]. Just look at the previous threads here to see what will turn up.

Thats true enough, sure after 10 years it would be time for another review anyways

The way the greenway supporters are talking they also will not accept the outcome if its ever released.

17-12-2019 12:12pm

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

Thats true enough, sure after 10 years it would be time for another review anyways The way the greenway supporters are talking they also will not accept the outcome if its ever released.

Given that there have been other reports that show phase 1 is an abysmal failure with it being nominated for closure and the section north of Athenry being abandoned, what you are incorrectly classifying as potential "non-acceptance" is more akin to a deep suspicion that this review will suffer from political interference due to the dirty tricks played by WOT/SF over the years.

The worst outcome for all sides is a report which fudges the issue and results in the line being idle for another generation.

ShaneC1600 · 17-12-2019 12:49pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Given that there have been other reports that show phase 1 is an abysmal failure with it being nominated for closure and the section north of Athenry being abandoned, what you are incorrectly classifying as potential "non-acceptance" is more akin to a deep suspicion that this review will suffer from political interference due to the dirty tricks played by WOT/SF over the years.

The worst outcome for all sides is a report which fudges the issue and results in the line being idle for another generation.

The line was opened in the middle of an unprecedented recession dude where all modes of public transport suffered, so reports carried during those times were never going to be positive.
And no, what I am saying is that it appears, that no matter what the verdict is in the railway review, greenway supporters have attempted to discredit the conclusions just in case they are not to their liking, and also keep mentioning a "rumor" that the review is going against the railway.

What report recommended the track north of Athenry be abandoned? Who commissioned that one?

I am not against greenway btw, I just think the greenway campaign for the Western Rail Corridor is being headed by people from outside of Galway and have no clue about what is best for Galway. I bet they are not sitting in Galway traffic every day.

Pete_Cavan · 17-12-2019 1:04pm

Is there even any paths available on the track into Galway for a service from Tuam? If not (which I suspect is the case), then the best you would get is a shuttle with a change. Surely a bus would be infinitely better for the shuttle as it could be higher frequency meaning missing your train doesn't mean having to wait for it to get to the far terminus and back to get the next train. People seem to think that there would be a Tuam - Galway service which may not be possible.

17-12-2019 1:37pm

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

The line was opened in the middle of an unprecedented recession dude where all modes of public transport suffered, so reports carried during those times were never going to be positive.
And no, what I am saying is that it appears, that no matter what the verdict is in the railway review, greenway supporters have attempted to discredit the conclusions just in case they are not to their liking, and also keep mentioning a "rumor" that the review is going against the railway.

What report recommended the track north of Athenry be abandoned? Who commissioned that one?

I am not against greenway btw, I just think the greenway campaign for the Western Rail Corridor is being headed by people from outside of Galway and have no clue about what is best for Galway. I bet they are not sitting in Galway traffic every day.

https://amp.irishexaminer.com/ireland/iarnrod-eireann-seeks-to-permanently-axe-10-closed-lines-430881.html

serfboard · 17-12-2019 2:12pm

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

I just think the greenway campaign for the Western Rail Corridor is being headed by people from outside of Galway and have no clue about what is best for Galway. I bet they are not sitting in Galway traffic every day.

You could not be more wrong about this.

ShaneC1600 · 17-12-2019 3:06pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

https://amp.irishexaminer.com/ireland/iarnrod-eireann-seeks-to-permanently-axe-10-closed-lines-430881.html

Did a report conclude it should be a abandoned or just the paper? From memory that was the beginning of a request for steady state funding too.

ShaneC1600 · 17-12-2019 3:09pm

serfboard wrote: »

You could not be more wrong about this.

You really believe that? ðŸ˜႒
Which part?

serfboard · 17-12-2019 3:30pm

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

You really believe that? ðŸ˜႒
Which part?

All of it.

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

I just think the greenway campaign for the Western Rail Corridor is being headed by people from outside of Galway

Wrong. In fact if you had said that West On Track is being headed by people from outside of Galway then you would be right.

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

and have no clue about what is best for Galway.

"what is best for Galway" on an opinion forum is always going to be subjective, but I think you're wrong that a railway to/through Tuam is "best for Galway".

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

I bet they are not sitting in Galway traffic every day.

Wrong.

MayoForSam · 17-12-2019 4:29pm

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

I am not against greenway btw, I just think the greenway campaign for the Western Rail Corridor is being headed by people from outside of Galway and have no clue about what is best for Galway. I bet they are not sitting in Galway traffic every day.

Ahem..... https://galwaydaily.com/news/rally-in-support-of-quiet-man-greenway-draws-thousands-to-tuam/

user1842 · 17-12-2019 4:32pm

Does any one know how much the green way will cost and when completed how much money it will bring to the area?

ShaneC1600 · 17-12-2019 4:42pm

serfboard wrote: »

All of it.

Fair enough if you say so

serfboard wrote: »

Wrong. In fact if you had said that West On Track is being headed by people from outside of Galway then you would be right.

Your right about WOT, but the dog on the street can see the influence of the greenway campaign from outside telling their followers to obey and send messages to xyz because they tell them to, its funny really.

So you are saying the campaign to bring a greenway along the WRC is championed by local groups only? The main heads in that group are from outside the county even the local politician would not be sitting in the same traffic that could be improved by improved transport in Galway.

serfboard wrote: »

"what is best for Galway" on an opinion forum is always going to be subjective, but I think you're wrong that a railway to/through Tuam is "best for Galway".

Where did I say a railway was "best for Galway"???

serfboard wrote: »

Wrong.

I made was such a sweeping statement that it has to be in some tiny bit right and you say I'm "wrong". You believe "they" are all sitting in traffic through Claregalway or the Headford Rd or where ever every day? Class

ShaneC1600 · 17-12-2019 4:47pm

MayoForSam wrote: »

Ahem..... https://galwaydaily.com/news/rally-in-support-of-quiet-man-greenway-draws-thousands-to-tuam/

It was a great day in fairness.

westtip · 18-12-2019 12:56am

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

Thats true enough, sure after 10 years it would be time for another review anyways The way the greenway supporters are talking they also will not accept the outcome if its ever released.

Oh so wrong, lets see the review accept what it says and get on with it. One thing is for sure if the review was massively pro WRC it would have been leaked by now. If the review says the WRC is the best idea since sliced bread then lets draw a line in the sand and get on with the railway, the general consensus is that it won't and the latest "peer review" in the department is to fudge the whole thing so the debate goes on endlessly.

westtip · 18-12-2019 1:02am

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

Fair enough if you say so

Your right about WOT, but the dog on the street can see the influence of the greenway campaign from outside telling their followers to obey and send messages to xyz because they tell them to, its funny really.

Where do you get this line of thought from, People are merely being told how they can empower themselves. I issued the call for people to make their own FOIs my guess is most folk wouldn't know where to start or think "its not for them". I called on people to enter a campaign of bombarding the department with FOIs to create mayhem. From all accounts the department has received hundreds of FOIs in just a few days, these all have to be responded to registered on the department website and it all becomes very transparent, it will also embarrass Lord Ross at the cabinet table if he has a department the public are screaming at. But no one is telling people to obey orders, we can leave that to SF/WOT.

Sligo eye · 18-12-2019 9:08am

westtip wrote: »

Where do you get this line of thought from, People are merely being told how they can empower themselves. I issued the call for people to make their own FOIs my guess is most folk wouldn't know where to start or think "its not for them". I called on people to enter a campaign of bombarding the department with FOIs to create mayhem. From all accounts the department has received hundreds of FOIs in just a few days, these all have to be responded to registered on the department website and it all becomes very transparent, it will also embarrass Lord Ross at the cabinet table if he has a department the public are screaming at. But no one is telling people to obey orders, we can leave that to SF/WOT.

There is no such organisation as SF/WOT.

Sligo eye · 18-12-2019 9:10am

Sligo eye wrote: »

There is no such organisation as SF/WOT.

I mean if we started calling the Greenway campaign FG/BORE* that might just have some traction given that Mairead McGuinness’s agent is involved in the campaign.

*Fine Gael/Bikes on Railways Exclusively

Muckyboots · 18-12-2019 9:26am

Sligo eye wrote: »

There is no such organisation as SF/WOT.

Best read in the voice of Gerry Adams (or a similar voiceover artist) .

18-12-2019 11:40am

Sligo eye wrote: »

There is no such organisation as SF/WOT.

Sorry, you misunderstand, SF stands for Sinn Fein and WOT stands for West On Track. When they are called SF/WOT it is to indicate that they are working together.

Image attached is from the recent WRC meeting in Athenry where a SF MEP, Councillor and other reps were joined by Gerry Murray from WOT.

I hope that clears it up for you and anyone else confused

ShaneC1600 · 18-12-2019 12:26pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Sorry, you misunderstand, SF stands for Sinn Fein and WOT stands for West On Track. When they are called SF/WOT it is to indicate that they are working together.

Image attached is from the recent WRC meeting in Athenry where a SF MEP, Councillor and other reps were joined by Gerry Murray from WOT.

I hope that clears it up for you and anyone else confused

At least SF have nailed their colours to a mast unlike the FG and FF. FG have a greenway TD supporter and FF have a Greenway TD supporter but seem to have less power as WOT. They don’t seem be putting their seats on the line for cause for what 6 years?

Sligo eye · 18-12-2019 12:29pm

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

At least SF have nailed their colours to a mast unlike the FG and FF. FG have a greenway TD supporter and FF have a Greenway TD supporter but seem to have less power as WOT. They don’t seem be putting their seats on the line for cause for what 6 years?

And Gerry Murray is a SF councillor. Looks like a SF meeting to me, if it was WOT the meeting would be branded as such. By hey, don’t let me wreck your buzz, as they say.

Sligo eye · 18-12-2019 12:30pm

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

At least SF have nailed their colours to a mast unlike the FG and FF. FG have a greenway TD supporter and FF have a Greenway TD supporter but seem to have less power as WOT. They don’t seem be putting their seats on the line for cause for what 6 years?

Well said.

18-12-2019 1:32pm

Sligo eye wrote: »

And Gerry Murray is a SF councillor. Looks like a SF meeting to me, if it was WOT the meeting would be branded as such. By hey, don’t let me wreck your buzz, as they say.

Gerry outlined his involvement in WOT for over 15 years at the meeting

Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

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