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Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

[Deleted User]

Carrying on with the discussion as the other thread is full

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2055766866/1

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donvito99

We should not be justifying railways on the basis that it would encourage recreational cycling.

Greaney

donvito99 wrote: »

We should not be justifying railways on the basis that it would encourage recreational cycling.

Here here, most of us use it for commuting. Rail & Bike are a terrific combo.

donvito99

Greaney wrote: »

Here here, most of us use it for commuting. Rail & Bike are a terrific combo.

Nor should we be justifying railways on the basis that one existed decades ago.

Greaney

donvito99 wrote: »

Nor should we be justifying railways on the basis that one existed decades ago.

Indeed, it should be about planning for the future.

1)The commuting population that work in Galway city but live in the county is now at it's highest at 50%
2) The top 3 commuter towns in the county are Oranmore, Tuam & Athenry in that order, of course they should be linked.
3) Athenry is an Education hub with three secondary schools and students coming from all directions to attend them.
4) Athenry is also a 'disabled services' hub, as is Tuam (with an Irish Wheelchair Assoc. regional office)
5) Many post offices have closed since 'decades ago' (eg; Ballyglunin) so many of our citizens who don't/cannot drive need infrastructure to link them to vital public services
6) This issue is bigger than Galway, there are rail advocacy groups all over the Island, hoping to link Derry to Cork with all our airports along the way.

And that most certainly is worth planning for.....

Muckyboots

Greaney wrote: »

Indeed, it should be about planning for the future.

1)The commuting population that work in Galway city but live in the county is now at it's highest at 50%
2) The top 3 commuter towns in the county are Oranmore, Tuam & Athenry in that order, of course they should be linked.
3) Athenry is an Education hub with three secondary schools and students coming from all directions to attend them.
4) Athenry is also a 'disabled services' hub, as is Tuam (with an Irish Wheelchair Assoc. regional office)
5) Many post offices have closed since 'decades ago' (eg; Ballyglunin) so many of our citizens who don't/cannot drive need infrastructure to link them to vital public services
6) This issue is bigger than Galway, there are rail advocacy groups all over the Island, hoping to link Derry to Cork with all our airports along the way.

And that most certainly is worth planning for.....

You think people would want to get a train from Derry to Cork? One that meanders through south Mayo and north Galway with over 16 road crossings in less than a 20km stretch, reducing the average speed to less than 50kmph? I think Sinn Fein should be aiming much higher than that if they think they come back from the EU with a 1/2 billion euros in their back pockets for the West of Ireland.

[Deleted User]

Muckyboots wrote: »

You think people would want to get a train from Derry to Cork? One that meanders through south Mayo and north Galway with over 16 road crossings in less than a 20km stretch, reducing the average speed to less than 50kmph? I think Sinn Fein should be aiming much higher than that if they think they come back from the EU with a 1/2 billion euros in their back pockets for the West of Ireland.

I would imagine if [if] such a plan was ever to get anywhere, it would be designed and built to modern standards with bridges instead of level crossings.
It would also need to take a more direct route, the days when the station needed to go through the middle of a town are long gone, one connecting bus to the town centre & a P+R system is whats needed these days.

end of the road

Muckyboots wrote: »

You think people would want to get a train from Derry to Cork? One that meanders through south Mayo and north Galway with over 16 road crossings in less than a 20km stretch, reducing the average speed to less than 50kmph? I think Sinn Fein should be aiming much higher than that if they think they come back from the EU with a 1/2 billion euros in their back pockets for the West of Ireland.

the crossings would likely be closed as part of any rebuild if a reopening of the wrc north of athenry was to take place.
it would be unlikely that there would be an actual derry to cork service, but rather the line would be a mix of regional services providing shorter journeys but which would allow connectivity between the 2 cities. presumably limerick to cork, then galway to limerick, galway to derry, or limerick to derry, perhapse limerick to sligo and then sligo to derry. who knows.
i wouldn't worry about it, whatever about reopening north of athenry i can't see any extension via sligo to derry. derry to dublin stopping at belfast would probably be the most likely for a derry direct to the republic service if any ever does happen, which i can't see it anytime soon.

ohographite

Muckyboots wrote: »

You think people would want to get a train from Derry to Cork? One that meanders through south Mayo and north Galway with over 16 road crossings in less than a 20km stretch, reducing the average speed to less than 50kmph? I think Sinn Fein should be aiming much higher than that if they think they come back from the EU with a 1/2 billion euros in their back pockets for the West of Ireland.

(I have said this before)If and when the new road is built from Tuam to Derry(N17 and N15 upgrade), it can be built straight and level.
That way a new railway can be built on the road alignment alongside the road traffic lanes, which would give a faster train journey(compared to the original railway alignment) because of the low curvature and lack of level crossings.
The railway could return briefly to the original railway alignment to run through towns like Claremorris where stations would be.

This idea could stop the opposition of the greenway on the original railway alignment, since the railway could share the other alignment with the new road instead.

Greaney

Muckyboots wrote: »

You think people would want to get a train from Derry to Cork? One that meanders through south Mayo and north Galway with over 16 road crossings in less than a 20km stretch, reducing the average speed to less than 50kmph? I think Sinn Fein should be aiming much higher than that if they think they come back from the EU with a 1/2 billion euros in their back pockets for the West of Ireland.

Well, we could ignore building any infrastructure and just drive everywhere... And look where that leads us

Furthermore, loads of people have no option but to use public transport, and many folk don't like getting the 'vomit comet' (bus)

I have no idea, how folk who are so anti-mass transit, figure how our country is going to develop, but I can tell you, our cities are bound up with traffic and not getting any less congested.

[Deleted User]

Greaney wrote: »

Well, we could ignore building any infrastructure and just drive everywhere... And look where that leads us

Furthermore, loads of people have no option but to use public transport, and many folk don't like getting the 'vomit comet' (bus)

I have no idea, how folk who are so anti-mass transit, figure how our country is going to develop, but I can tell you, our cities are bound up with traffic and not getting any less congested.

Nobody is anti mass transit here. Most are anti waste of money though

For the money to get Athenry to Tuam up and running, you would put in bus lanes all the way from Tuam to Galway, Moycullen to Galway, Loughrea to Galway etc and move a hell of a lot more people a hell of a lot faster

As for people not wanting to use buses, Burkes alone puts that silly argument to rest with their schedule which reflects the real demand

Greaney

Deleted User wrote: »

Nobody is anti mass transit here. Most are anti waste of money though

For the money to get Athenry to Tuam up and running, you would put in bus lanes all the way from Tuam to Galway, Moycullen to Galway, Loughrea to Galway etc and move a hell of a lot more people a hell of a lot faster

As for people not wanting to use buses, Burkes alone puts that silly argument to rest with their schedule which reflects the real demand

I understand that you don't want to see money wasted, and I don't think you're going to be convinced by any arguments at all. The truth is we have to make big investments in the country to keep up to par with the changes happening around us. We failed to do this after the boom in the 70's and our lack of infrastructure meant we not only failed to attract more Foreign direct investment, but companies that were here closed. Furthermore, in trying to catch up with the rest of the first world, regular workers were taxed out the wazoo to pay for investment and it led to a protracted recession through the 80's. This up coming meeting is about EU funding so I'm assuming that the burden won't end up on the Irish worker.

I live in a town with a train and it's terrific. but to address some more of your other points

1) This issue isn't just about Athenry & Tuam, it's about Claremorris, Ballyglunin, and after that Sligo etc.... The main Cities on the West coast of the country are not linked!
2) Not all commuters go to Galway... as I've said in earlier threads, Athenry & Tuam are themselves hubs for surrounding areas
3) There are over 50 buses a day between Tuam & Galway, for example. That's a lot more traffic on Galway city's roads, even if you build more bus lanes into Galway. In Galway we are blessed with a train that goes right to the city centre.
4) I travel regularly on the train between Athenry to Galway, mostly on trains coming from Limerick, and we're now finding those trains don't have enough seats by Athenry. They already need more carriages. The service was opened during the bust so it was slow to take off, but now that the Ghost estates in Craughwell are lived in... it's very busy.
5) Train is much more comfortable. I called buses 'The vomit comet' because long journeys make some people travel sick. A huge amount of folk travel to attend UCHG for cancer treatments, Kidney dialysis etc. and the train is their preferred mode over a bus, say.
6) Those that are arguing for double tracking between Galway & Athenry are spot on. The Athenry service is too expensive and makes huge profits for Iarnrod Éireann, it's only €3 more to go to Ballinasloe.

Isambard

Muckyboots wrote: »

You think people would want to get a train from Derry to Cork? One that meanders through south Mayo and north Galway with over 16 road crossings in less than a 20km stretch, reducing the average speed to less than 50kmph? I think Sinn Fein should be aiming much higher than that if they think they come back from the EU with a 1/2 billion euros in their back pockets for the West of Ireland.

well of course if someone did really want to take the train from Derry to Cork, there's nothing to stop them doing that now, with changes , (and if a demand were to be shown , a through train wouldn't be impossible). I'm betting no-one has actually done that journey recently.

Sligo eye

Isambard wrote: »

well of course if someone did really want to take the train from Derry to Cork, there's nothing to stop them doing that now, with changes , (and if a demand were to be shown , a through train wouldn't be impossible). I'm betting no-one has actually done that journey recently.

Actually I have.

Sligo eye

Greaney wrote: »

Indeed, it should be about planning for the future.

1)The commuting population that work in Galway city but live in the county is now at it's highest at 50%
2) The top 3 commuter towns in the county are Oranmore, Tuam & Athenry in that order, of course they should be linked.
3) Athenry is an Education hub with three secondary schools and students coming from all directions to attend them.
4) Athenry is also a 'disabled services' hub, as is Tuam (with an Irish Wheelchair Assoc. regional office)
5) Many post offices have closed since 'decades ago' (eg; Ballyglunin) so many of our citizens who don't/cannot drive need infrastructure to link them to vital public services
6) This issue is bigger than Galway, there are rail advocacy groups all over the Island, hoping to link Derry to Cork with all our airports along the way.

And that most certainly is worth planning for.....

Delighted to see this post. The Derry campaign is certainly taking off and those of us who are also involved in it are very much aware of the need to get the Western seaboard properly rail connected to shift infrastructure focus away from the Belfast-Dublin axis.

In many respects the greenway anti rail campaigning has galvanised people - the silent majority - to re-examine our love affair with the private car and skeletal bus services and rethink how our towns and cities are planned.

The greenway campaign may have keyboard warriors on their side but we have something much stronger - cool heads and serious engineering and planning experts who have a clear vision as to what Ireland should look like over the next 40 years.

mayo.mick

Sligo eye wrote: »

Actually I have.

Out of interest, how much did the train journey cost you, and how long did it take?

Sligo eye

mayo.mick wrote: »

Out of interest, how much did the train journey cost you, and how long did it take?

€19.99 for the Cork to Dublin leg, £20 for Dublin-Derry via Belfast.

I started on the 7am train to Heuston, got there about 930am. Took the Luas to Connolly. Got the 1120 Enterprise and changed at Lanyon Place. Arrived in Derry at 1622.

It’s a long day but I was able to work on the train, get my breakfast and lunch.

Isambard

Sligo eye wrote: »

€19.99 for the Cork to Dublin leg, £20 for Dublin-Derry via Belfast.

I started on the 7am train to Heuston, got there about 930am. Took the Luas to Connolly. Got the 1120 Enterprise and changed at Lanyon Place. Arrived in Derry at 1622.

It’s a long day but I was able to work on the train, get my breakfast and lunch.

well done you !...the exception that proves the rule :-)

end of the road

Deleted User wrote: »

Nobody is anti mass transit here. Most are anti waste of money though

For the money to get Athenry to Tuam up and running, you would put in bus lanes all the way from Tuam to Galway, Moycullen to Galway, Loughrea to Galway etc and move a hell of a lot more people a hell of a lot faster

As for people not wanting to use buses, Burkes alone puts that silly argument to rest with their schedule which reflects the real demand

you might be able to get in a few more bus lanes but moving a lot more people a lot faster is very debatible when you consider traffic and actual attractiveness over something rail based.
berks alone, nor any other bus company, does not put to bed this supposed argument that people don't want to use buses, because no such argument has been made.
the actual argument that has been made, and it does seem to have been shown to be the case, is that something rail based is more likely to attract more people then bus based transport, because bus based transport cannot compete with the aspects that make a good rail based system attractive.
berks schedule only reflects the demand for their services, not for public transport as a whole. basing demand on the basis of a bus company sounds like something of the 1950s/60s tbh.

user1842

Sorry if I have missed it on the thread but how much is the estimated cost of opening the Athenry to Tuam section?

Looking at google maps, all the line still exists, it is a relatively straight line and I would count only about two real crossings to either close, bridge or underpass.

The biggest cost would just be the replacement of the track or am I totally wrong?

I suppose the cost to also renovate Tuam station.

Isambard

It cost €103 miilion from Ennis to Athenry, some years back if that's a guide.

user1842

Isambard wrote: »

It cost €103 miilion from Ennis to Athenry, some years back if that's a guide.

So that is double the distance and has more stations. One could thus assume that Athenry to Tuam would be well under €50 million.

what_traffic

end of the road wrote: »

berks schedule only reflects the demand for their services, not for public transport as a whole. basing demand on the basis of a bus company sounds like something of the 1950s/60s tbh.

Why are you calling them "Berks"?

Burkes Bus are providing alot of public transport options for people in Galway County/South Mayo. As demand increased - they have provided more and more services over the years. If we had more bus lanes/corridors/gates on approach to Galway City - can only see more people availing of these services.

Isambard

user1842 wrote: »

So that is double the distance and has more stations. One could thus assume that Athenry to Tuam would be well under €50 million.

you really think so? Even if it was, €50 million for a train (possibly) full of passengers morning and night that could get there quicker in a coach on the brand new motorway?/ value for money? I think not.

Muckyboots

user1842 wrote: »

So that is double the distance and has more stations. One could thus assume that Athenry to Tuam would be well under €50 million.

€50M???...... anyway if they were going to put a new track on the old alignment, the plan was always to abandon the old Tuam station and erect a new automated turnstile unmanned shell structure and new carpark south of Tuam, which would make sense to be fair.

user1842

Isambard wrote: »

you really think so? Even if it was, €50 million for a train (possibly) full of passengers morning and night that could get there quicker in a coach on the brand new motorway?/ value for money? I think not.

I have no clue on the cost, hence my question.

It is also a good question on what the max speed of Athenry to Tuam rail link could be?

Could it beat the motorway, it looks like a straight enough line.

serfboard

user1842 wrote: »

It is also a good question on what the max speed of Athenry to Tuam rail link could be?

Could it beat the motorway, it looks like a straight enough line.

It could yeah, I hear they're thinking of a TGV for that stretch ... :rolleyes:

user1842

serfboard wrote: »

It could yeah, I hear they're thinking of a TGV for that stretch ... :rolleyes:

Well that's very forward thinking by Irish rail, im impressed.

end of the road

what_traffic wrote: »

Why are you calling them "Berks"?

Burkes Bus are providing alot of public transport options for people in Galway County/South Mayo. As demand increased - they have provided more and more services over the years. If we had more bus lanes/corridors/gates on approach to Galway City - can only see more people availing of these services.

so what?
they aren't doing it out of the goodness of their heart, they are doing it because obviously it's profitable for them. they are a commercial business, not a charity.
and i would reccan something rail based could get even more users as long as the route is properly scoped out.

Isambard wrote: »

you really think so? Even if it was, €50 million for a train (possibly) full of passengers morning and night that could get there quicker in a coach on the brand new motorway?/ value for money? I think not.

actually yes . train can carry those passengers with 1 driver per set of vehicles, and it means less cost on continuous road expansion which is probably no longer justifiable around galway now.
traffic is also growing in galway, the city apparently has serious congestion, a coach on the motor way assuming it has to go to the city isn't going to remain that bit quicker indefinitely. even if it stays on the motor way from it's start to end, it may get to the stage that the serious congestion galway apparently has might spill over, in turn possibly effecting it.
so galway is going to have to start having rail based transport to put in, it's the only way to really make a massive dint.

serfboard

user1842 wrote: »

Well that's very forward thinking by Irish rail, im impressed.

Even more impressive when the stop at Ballyglunin is taken into account!

Oh yes, I can see it now - a hush descends on the platform as the hundreds of passengers in Ballyglunin wait to board their TGV to Galway.

Isambard

end of the road wrote: »

so what?
they aren't doing it out of the goodness of their heart, they are doing it because obviously it's profitable for them. they are a commercial business, not a charity.
and i would reccan something rail based could get even more users as long as the route is properly scoped out.

actually yes . train can carry those passengers with 1 driver per set of vehicles, and it means less cost on continuous road expansion which is probably no longer justifiable around galway now.
traffic is also growing in galway, the city apparently has serious congestion, a coach on the motor way assuming it has to go to the city isn't going to remain that bit quicker indefinitely. even if it stays on the motor way from it's start to end, it may get to the stage that the serious congestion galway apparently has might spill over, in turn possibly effecting it.
so galway is going to have to start having rail based transport to put in, it's the only way to really make a massive dint.

i
d contend it is likely that one coach with one driver may suffice