Lead ban

keith s · 25-10-2020 1:56pm

Thanks Tudderone,

Yeah, I can't believe how something with so many holes in it, has made it this far and the majority of people who make decisions for the rest of us, have not seen any issues with it.

BattleCorp · 25-10-2020 2:48pm

In short, steel shot is nowhere near as good as lead.

It's harder on your gun (it'll downright break some of them leading to shooter injuries), doesn't kill as efficiently and drops like a stone once it hits about 35 metres.

tudderone · 25-10-2020 5:15pm

keith s wrote: »

Thanks Tudderone,

Yeah, I can't believe how something with so many holes in it, has made it this far and the majority of people who make decisions for the rest of us, have not seen any issues with it.

They couldn't give a flying sh1te, its the mercs, perks, expenses, lotto win wages, massive pensions and contacts to make more money when you get slung out, that are important.

So what if mick the farmers gun doesn't take steel ?

tudderone · 25-10-2020 5:19pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

In short, steel shot is nowhere near as good as lead.

It's harder on your gun (it'll downright break some of them leading to shooter injuries), doesn't kill as efficiently and drops like a stone once it hits about 35 metres.

Yup, its going to massively change game and clay shooting, for no real benefit to the environment.

BattleCorp · 26-10-2020 5:08pm

tudderone wrote: »

Yup, its going to massively change game and clay shooting, for no real benefit to the environment.

And if our gobsh1tes decide to ban the use of lead in all ammo, it'll screw up all other types of shooting too.

tudderone · 26-10-2020 6:02pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

And if our gobsh1tes decide to ban the use of lead in all ammo, it'll screw up all other types of shooting too.

Well i would assume it is a total lead ban, or whats the point ?

Grizzly 45 · 26-10-2020 8:19pm

IT IS
and the ban on lead in rifle ammo, muzzleloading and reloading is the next step... So be prepared to fight this tooth& nail lads.

keith s · 26-10-2020 8:59pm

Makes no sense for target shooting, given the expense already gone in to catchment areas in clubs.

solarwinds · 26-10-2020 9:05pm

keith s wrote: »

Makes no sense for target shooting, given the expense already gone in to catchment areas in clubs.

None of it makes any sense to a rational person.
This is nothing more than a ban all guns at any cost exercise.
Public health and the health of waterfowl has nothing to do with any of this, it is just a back door to getting what they eventually want, an unarmed public where the only guns in use are the ones used by their bodyguards, police and military all of which are government controlled.

solarwinds · 26-10-2020 9:09pm

keith s wrote: »

Makes no sense for target shooting, given the expense already gone in to catchment areas in clubs.

None of it makes any sense to a rational person.
This is nothing more than a ban all guns at any cost exercise.
Public health and the health of waterfowl has nothing to do with any of this, it is just a back door to getting what they eventually want, an unarmed public where the only guns in use are the ones used by their bodyguards, police and military all of which are government controlled.

GooseB · 26-10-2020 9:13pm

A while back I contacted some firearm manufacturers and a large European ammo manufacturer on this. The ammunition R&D manager told me "Our main problem, the ban of lead in all civil ammunition and all terrains (also called “full ban”) is currently under construction. It’s planned to be finalised on 10th of October 2020". I cannot however find any more information online regarding this 10th of October plan that was mentioned. From what I can tell so far, almost nobody in the shooting community here is aware of any of this from asking around a bit - it's news to them for the most part. The narrative from those pushing the total ban (and the shot ban that's way more advanced and a pen stroke from being in effect from 2 years time) is that hunters have the option of solid copper bullets for use in rifles and steel shot in shotguns. They don't use a lot of ammunition, eg: a successful deer stalk may involve one single shot, so the increased cost of the ammo is quite tolerable. Target shooting is never even mentioned at all so to hell with them in otherwords. MEP's that haven't a clue on the matter either way are being told this side of the story only and not the other side of it from a shooters point of view or from the ballistics side of things. Since they may not know better, they're going to vote going by what BS they're fed from the anti-gun crowd, sorry, anti-lead crowd. And fishing weights are being impacted too but they don't have the exacting needs of lead as firearms do. Military use of lead is not affected, this is strictly aimed at civilians.

keith s · 26-10-2020 9:22pm

Yeah, for sure the initial one in the works now (lead shot), is the thin edge, I think most of us would agree on that. Especially given the fact that the perposal is a dogs dinner and nobody in charge even seems to acknowledge that (bar one or two).

tudderone · 26-10-2020 9:42pm

If something is a dogs dinner, as this proposal appears to be, then it is more than likely more dangerous than a well thought out piece of legislation, as there will be unintended consequences for us, along with the intended ones.

Copper vs lead ? Todays prices on the London metal exchange, has copper three times the price of lead. Suddenly a sunday mornings plinking with a brick of .22 in the rifle or pistol looks a whole lot more expensive.

https://www.lme.com

GooseB · 26-10-2020 10:04pm

Forget about .22 in copper - look up the video by 22Plinkster on YouTube using CCI copper rounds, the accuracy is atrocious - and that's at only 25 yards.

Again, from the ammunition R&D manager I contacted - "You have clearly detected the challenge in this project – the accuracy. Lead is an very old material and over the times the best choice for a bullet material. It’s not so easy to develop new materials that fulfil the actual and future requirements of the EU rules. Also the costs are a very hard point in the development and later in the market."

tudderone · 26-10-2020 10:53pm

Commiefornia is the leader in all this lead ban thing. They banned hunting with lead years ago, and are trying to ban the use of lead on indoor and outdoor ranges. Come to think of it, living in this dreary country is getting like living in california, without the good weather :rolleyes:.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvovW0jGoSg

juice1304 · 26-10-2020 11:34pm

The only material comparable to lead is gold. The average cost of a rifle round would be 550 and double that for a shotgun cartridge.

All you have to do is look at the periodic table.
They are simply so ignorant they think companies can come up with new materials sure they can make new alloys but they can't do anything about the density. Shortsighted political idiots who have no idea nor interest in engineering.

ayagerard · 27-10-2020 10:36am

solarwinds wrote: »

None of it makes any sense to a rational person.
This is nothing more than a ban all guns at any cost exercise.
Public health and the health of waterfowl has nothing to do with any of this, it is just a back door to getting what they eventually want, an unarmed public where the only guns in use are the ones used by

their bodyguards, police and military will be all exempt ????? from the lead ban WHY and what i would like to know is . why and what theory exempts them, far more likely to be sued if they are though less off than the public discrimination is one word but it works both ways

the case put forward for the ban is lead poising to wildlife in wet lands while lead is toxic and found in bird gizzards may not have been what killed them ,
what will they have to say about birds and animals found dead after copper shot are found weeks later with infectious wounds which certainly attributed to their demise, the lead ban i feel is only cut one, down the road there will be bigger arguments that will be harder won if this is allowed to pass

if the copper is" not good-enough for the world army's or police services to shoot themselves and us with then it is not good for animals either, they can come up with tonnage of lead that hunters use on an annual bases what tonnage do the armed forces (freedom fighters) and their likes use ????
surely 10 fold and that would be a good year,
this is just another control measure that is being put to law abiding citizens and will have no effect on street violence or animal welfare or the environment we live in

meathstevie · 27-10-2020 11:03am

How many multiples of the amount of lead a hunter would shoot does it take to train an infantry GPMG or LMG operator and keep their skill level at an acceptable standard ?

I’m assuming it’ll be in the region of tens of thousands of 7.62 NATO or 5.56 NATO rounds over the duration of their military life. The average deer stalker or fox shooter wouldn’t shoot such an amount in a hundred lifetimes of hunting.

I’m equally assuming then that there’s no wildlife to be impacted on any military ranges or exercise grounds anywhere in the EU if that’s the case.

Grizzly 45 · 27-10-2020 1:23pm

keith s wrote: »

Makes no sense for target shooting, given the expense already gone in to catchment areas in clubs.

Outdoor range,proably built in a "wetland area", earthen/sandy backstops with no or little ground sheeting to catch the lead water runoff...:( About 90 % of target ranges out there.

Grizzly 45 · 27-10-2020 1:26pm

meathstevie wrote: »

How many multiples of the amount of lead a hunter would shoot does it take to train an infantry GPMG or LMG operator and keep their skill level at an acceptable standard ?

I’m assuming it’ll be in the region of tens of thousands of 7.62 NATO or 5.56 NATO rounds over the duration of their military life. The average deer stalker or fox shooter wouldn’t shoot such an amount in a hundred lifetimes of hunting.

I’m equally assuming then that there’s no wildlife to be impacted on any military ranges or exercise grounds anywhere in the EU if that’s the case.

NOTE the military/police exemptions??? Places like Sailsbury plain,Grafenwoher in Germany and all others would be then utter health hazards to troops and cost billions to clean up,if ever...

tudderone · 27-10-2020 1:46pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

NOTE the military/police exemptions??? Places like Sailsbury plain,Grafenwoher in Germany and all others would be then utter health hazards to troops and cost billions to clean up,if ever...

What about the Somme, Verdun, Passchendaele, Neuve Chapelle, etc etc, from the first lot and then the second war, Sicily, Monte cassino, the battle of the bulge, the battle of Berlin and thousands of others ? Billions of spent rounds all over the place.

The British in the first world war alone fired 170 million shells, if you assume the Germans fired back roughly the same, thats 350 million shells. How many rifle and machine gun bullets were fired for every shell fired ? 10 ? 50 ? 100 ?

What the entire sports shooting population of europe fire in a decade is absolutely nothing in comparison.

Edit, the Germans fired 222 million shells in the first war.

Grizzly 45 · 27-10-2020 5:09pm

French& Belgians reckon it will take 700 years for them to get the "Iron harvest" of ww1 out of their land. Include the nastier things like chlorine, mustard and phosgene gas shells that are there and will eventually erode and poison the land,as well as a couple of the forgotten 100 ton"trench crater" mines that could still detonate in the French countryside. Shotgun pellets and some rifle bullets from hunters seem to be a small addition.

Here's the thing,all that war junk will eventually SINK deeper into the soil, and be less harmful to the environment.in a century it is still at plough depth.Shotgun pellets do the same thing after a few years, they sink in river beds and swamps and fields. Crops arent deep rooting at all,and for how long have we been eating French and Belgian produce that have been grown on WW1 battlefields?We should be dead from lead poisioning along time ago.

Grizzly 45 · 28-10-2020 10:37pm

Kinda a last throw of the dice this...But...

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/meps-table-motion-to-fix-major-errors-in-lead-gunshot-ban-proposal/

tudderone · 28-10-2020 11:33pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Kinda a last throw of the dice this...But...

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/meps-table-motion-to-fix-major-errors-in-lead-gunshot-ban-proposal/

Fingers crossed, but i don't hold out much hope.

Limerick Sovereigns · 29-10-2020 12:48am

Who are the members of that committee so that maybe we could lobby some of them?

Grizzly 45 · 29-10-2020 2:27pm

Limerick Sovereigns wrote: »

Who are the members of that committee so that maybe we could lobby some of them?

Here ya go.:) One email,CC'd to all by every shooter here by 5pm would be effective.:)
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/committees/en/envi/home/members

tudderone · 29-10-2020 2:47pm

What time is the vote ?

Limerick Sovereigns · 29-10-2020 4:37pm

Ammendment was defeated 41 to 33 with 4 abstentions.

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/cmsdata/214593/2020-10-29%20roll-call-votes.pdf

If you scroll down to vote number 4 you can see who voted for and against. The 2 Irish members Wallace and O'Sullivan voted against the amendment. No surprize there I suppose.

I think the vote was closer than I expected so event though its a defeat, it gives some hope that there is enough opposition growing that we might get changes implemented later in the process.

tudderone · 29-10-2020 10:53pm

Limerick Sovereigns wrote: »

Ammendment was defeated 41 to 33 with 4 abstentions.

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/cmsdata/214593/2020-10-29%20roll-call-votes.pdf

If you scroll down to vote number 4 you can see who voted for and against. The 2 Irish members Wallace and O'Sullivan voted against the amendment. No surprize there I suppose.

I think the vote was closer than I expected so event though its a defeat, it gives some hope that there is enough opposition growing that we might get changes implemented later in the process.

Goodbye lead shot, hello crappy steel shotshells and expensive bismuth etc.

Grizzly 45 · 29-10-2020 10:56pm

Greens and Lefties again.

tudderone · 29-10-2020 10:59pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Greens and Lefties again.

All well meaning and good intentions, and fcuking things up, because none of these daft laws they bring in do a damned thing.

meathstevie · 30-10-2020 1:08am

tudderone wrote: »

All well meaning and good intentions, and fcuking things up, because none of these daft laws they bring in do a damned thing.

Nothing well meaning about them, the people who openly talk about restricting rural villages to a ludicrous car pooling system and inadequate public transport, vilify agriculture and farming, want to end most if not all country pursuits have nothing well meaning in mind. What they want is everyone to conform to their woke, which coincidentally rhymes with boke, politically correct and sterile utopia. Four legs good, two legs better and big brother is watching you, well meaning my a r s e.

tudderone · 30-10-2020 1:16am

meathstevie wrote: »

Nothing well meaning about them, the people who openly talk about restricting rural villages to a ludicrous car pooling system and inadequate public transport, vilify agriculture and farming, want to end most if not all country pursuits have nothing well meaning in mind. What they want is everyone to conform to their woke, which coincidentally rhymes with boke, politically correct and sterile utopia. Four legs good, two legs better and big brother is watching you, well meaning my a r s e.

I have to agree, its blind faith in an ideology (being green) that doesn't work in the real world. There are more holes in the green thing than a fishing net, but they follow it all the same. There is a green nazi in my nieces school, he's a teacher. Some of the pure bilge he spouts is worring. How can a grown supposidly educated man believe such tripe ?

A lot of people profess to being greenies, so long as they can have their 4 litre Audi/ Range rover suvs to one up the neighbours in.

meathstevie · 30-10-2020 2:07am

tudderone wrote: »

I have to agree, its blind faith in an ideology (being green) that doesn't work in the real world. There are more holes in the green thing than a fishing net, but they follow it all the same. There is a green nazi in my nieces school, he's a teacher. Some of the pure bilge he spouts is worring. How can a grown supposidly educated man believe such tripe ?

A lot of people profess to being greenies, so long as they can have their 4 litre Audi/ Range rover suvs to one up the neighbours in.

“Green” can work, just like social democracy can work and communism can’t. The fundamentalist fringe is a road to damnation.

We collectively need to use less resources and use the ones we have far more considerately and we need to pollute less, the only other alternative is the human population needs to shrink ( e.g. China’s one child policy ). How do we do it is the big question.

In the case of Ireland would it for example not be a wise move to acquire a sizeable nuclear power plant that could supply electricity with a margin for growth for the next few decades to reduce fossil fuel usage.

We’re in a geologically very stable location ( no Fukushima’s ) and have quite a few disused mines where waste can be stored deep and below ground water levels.

Does Europe for example need to completely change over to electrical vehicles or should we do this in conjunction with continued use of hyper frugal combustion engines.

My old diesel Skoda for example does about 4,5 to 5l per 100k on a 140k commute.

With weight reduction and enhanced engine performance I’m quite sure this can be pushed down to about 3l in newer cars unless we keep stuffing cars full of energy consuming and weight increasing gadgets and gizmos that contribute nothing to the functionality of a car.

Do we for example revert back to glass bottles rather than plastics and should we reinvent the old paper wrapping from the days of old for meat and cheese ?

TrimeTime · 30-10-2020 6:06am

Would something like this effect someone who is only now taking on learning how to shoot and obtaining a firearm license in coming months?

I planned on buying a 22LR calibre rifle.

Also all of Ireland isn't Wetlands so they'd hardly ban lead rifle use from Irish market entirely.

meathstevie · 30-10-2020 7:14am

TrimeTime wrote: »

Would something like this effect someone who is only now taking on learning how to shoot and obtaining a firearm license in coming months?

I planned on buying a 22LR calibre rifle.

Also all of Ireland isn't Wetlands so they'd hardly ban lead rifle use from Irish market entirely.

Have a look at the definition of a “wetland” that is being used. Hardly any part of Ireland isn’t covered by it.

Fastnet50 · 30-10-2020 9:58am

I do not think rifle bullets come under the wetlands umbrella as the main objection they believe is that water birds can ingest the small leadshot as it is similar to grit. I think you would be fine with your .22 rifle. I also hope that the definition of wetlands is deemed to mean that and not some rain puddle in a ditch somewhere and that leadshot can still be used for all other game and vermin shooting. So tired of this constant pressure and restrictions being applied to our sport.

tudderone · 30-10-2020 12:28pm

Fastnet50 wrote: »

I do not think rifle bullets come under the wetlands umbrella as the main objection they believe is that water birds can ingest the small leadshot as it is similar to grit. I think you would be fine with your .22 rifle. I also hope that the definition of wetlands is deemed to mean that and not some rain puddle in a ditch somewhere and that leadshot can still be used for all other game and vermin shooting. So tired of this constant pressure and restrictions being applied to our sport.

You need to read up, it does mean that. Wetland is land with water on it, so puddles = wetland. In addition i know of clay layouts on boggy wet ground thats useless for agriculture, they are going to be in trouble now too.

Fastnet50 · 30-10-2020 12:42pm

I have read it up and I was talking about lead rifle ammo which is not mentioned under wetlands. Let us see what comes out in the wash regarding leadshot and so called wetlands?

Grizzly 45 · 30-10-2020 1:12pm

Fastnet50 wrote: »

I do not think rifle bullets come under the wetlands umbrella as the main objection they believe is that water birds can ingest the small leadshot as it is similar to grit. I think you would be fine with your .22 rifle. I also hope that the definition of wetlands is deemed to mean that and not some rain puddle in a ditch somewhere and that leadshot can still be used for all other game and vermin shooting. So tired of this constant pressure and restrictions being applied to our sport.

You need to read the thread,you will find that ALL your points are answered with a resounding YES from the EU Soviet.
YES, they will go after rifle ammo and ranges next.:mad: After that muzzleloading ammo and bullet casting

YES they HAVE declared now that even a puddle of rainwater like what we have had yesterday all over Ireland is now a "wetland".We tried to get this changed to a more rational definition. Our two wasters Grace O Sullivan {Green] and Mick Wallace[gob****e] voted against this:mad:

YES now a primary EU human right of "burden of proof" that you weren't intending to use the lead shot on a wetland has now fallen on YOU.

YES you can still use the lead ammo for the clays and vermin.PROVIDED you are not hunting on a new "Wet land" by their crazy definition.
guess where most of our clay ranges,and rifle ranges are built???:mad:

Fastnet50 · 30-10-2020 1:38pm

The case against rifle ammo is not very strong and is based on meat pollution caused by h/v ammo disintegrating and splashing on impact and therefore making its way to the human and animal food chain. The case for target ranges are less strong as most bullets can be caught in bullet catchers and recycled. I know you already know all this already and I have no doubt they will keep at this campaign to ban lead in ammo completely. However I think they have a huge way to go to have this implemented as firstly they have no alternative to lead for most small caliber bullets. I also feel that we should not try to discourage younger shooters from entering the sport by complete negative posting. If and when they come up with a suitable alternative to rifle ammo I have no doubt they will switch to that but until then I do not think they will. Appreciate your thoughts .

meathstevie · 30-10-2020 2:45pm

Fastnet50 wrote: »

The case against rifle ammo is not very strong and is based on meat pollution caused by h/v ammo disintegrating and splashing on impact and therefore making its way to the human and animal food chain. The case for target ranges are less strong as most bullets can be caught in bullet catchers and recycled. I know you already know all this already and I have no doubt they will keep at this campaign to ban lead in ammo completely. However I think they have a huge way to go to have this implemented as firstly they have no alternative to lead for most small caliber bullets. I also feel that we should not try to discourage younger shooters from entering the sport by complete negative posting. If and when they come up with a suitable alternative to rifle ammo I have no doubt they will switch to that but until then I do not think they will. Appreciate your thoughts .

Science and fact has nothing to do with it. They want lead ammunition gone, rifle, shotgun all the same. The only place in Ireland not covered by that ban will be an indoor range.

tudderone · 30-10-2020 2:50pm

Fastnet50 wrote: »

The case against rifle ammo is not very strong and is based on meat pollution caused by h/v ammo disintegrating and splashing on impact and therefore making its way to the human and animal food chain. The case for target ranges are less strong as most bullets can be caught in bullet catchers and recycled. I know you already know all this already and I have no doubt they will keep at this campaign to ban lead in ammo completely. However I think they have a huge way to go to have this implemented as firstly they have no alternative to lead for most small caliber bullets. I also feel that we should not try to discourage younger shooters from entering the sport by complete negative posting. If and when they come up with a suitable alternative to rifle ammo I have no doubt they will switch to that but until then I do not think they will. Appreciate your thoughts .

Look at a range the size of the midlands, some job to build a bullet catcher on that ! What about the bullets that fall short ? Its not just lead shot, it IS bullets too, in the last week i posted a video of a Swiss range closed because of lead bullets could not be recovered, i wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't the eussr pressuring them to do it.

If you look at california, they are trying now to ban indoor pistol and rifle ranges, hiding it all behind health and safety. Lead exposure and all that.

If we don't get consessions, i reckon we could be finished.

Fastnet50 · 30-10-2020 2:53pm

I am around a long time and remember this debate about leadshot in the mid 1970s. It took them over 40yrs to get lead banned in 2020. I do not think banning all lead in ammunition will happen anytime soon but I will stand corrected.

BattleCorp · 30-10-2020 4:04pm

Fastnet50 wrote: »

I am around a long time and remember this debate about leadshot in the mid 1970s. It took them over 40yrs to get lead banned in 2020. I do not think banning all lead in ammunition will happen anytime soon but I will stand corrected.

If you stand corrected, it'll be too late for all of us. We will all lose out. :mad:

tudderone · 30-10-2020 4:19pm

Fastnet50 wrote: »

I am around a long time and remember this debate about leadshot in the mid 1970s. It took them over 40yrs to get lead banned in 2020. I do not think banning all lead in ammunition will happen anytime soon but I will stand corrected.

You think the eu have gone through all the trouble to write a bill, and get everyone to vote for it, and are then going to forget it ? With the greatest respect, i think you are deluding yourself.

Fastnet50 · 30-10-2020 5:03pm

There has been no vote on lead in rifle or pistol ammunition, at least as yet and believe me I am not deluding myself at all. I could see this ban on leadshot over water coming years ago as could most shooters. I am trying to encourage a new shooter to buy a .22 rifle as I do not know what will happen in the future no more than the rest of you do but I am not putting an angle grinder through my firearms just yet.

tudderone · 30-10-2020 5:30pm

Fastnet50 wrote: »

There has been no vote on lead in rifle or pistol ammunition, at least as yet and believe me I am not deluding myself at all. I could see this ban on leadshot over water coming years ago as could most shooters. I am trying to encourage a new shooter to buy a .22 rifle as I do not know what will happen in the future no more than the rest of you do but I am not putting an angle grinder through my firearms just yet.

There was a vote on shooting lead over wetlands. If the whole island is basically classed as wetland, then where can you shoot, rifle pistol or shotgun ?

BattleCorp · 30-10-2020 5:42pm

Fastnet50 wrote: »

There has been no vote on lead in rifle or pistol ammunition, at least as yet and believe me I am not deluding myself at all. I could see this ban on leadshot over water coming years ago as could most shooters. I am trying to encourage a new shooter to buy a .22 rifle as I do not know what will happen in the future no more than the rest of you do but I am not putting an angle grinder through my firearms just yet.

Nobody is asking you to put an angle grinder through your firearms but there's no point denying the fact that this legislation will cause problems for shooters here.

There are several problems for us that I can see.

1. The definition of wetlands. It's quite possible that pretty much all of Ireland could be classed as a wetland.

2. If most of Ireland is classed as a wetland, they might make the decision to get rid of lead altogether, and not just in the wetlands.

3. Even if it's not contained in EU legislation, our own Government might sneak in a few extra conditions as they did with the EU magazine ban about a year ago. Mags could have been grandfathered for sporting purposes. They Irish Government didn't do that. The EU legislation had nothing in it regarding keeping ammo in locked containers but our legislation added that in.

I'm not scaremongering here but this legislation poses a real threat to shooting here.

Fastnet50 · 30-10-2020 5:45pm

Shooting leadshot from shotguns.

Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information

Lead ban

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