Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

irishbucsfan · 29-01-2020 10:08pm

Neil3030 wrote: »

No.

It's incredible how quickly the game evolves. BOD only retired in 2013 and already you can see what worked in "his day", vs. today.

Successful packs are going to be increasingly built around players with athleticism and skill. In attack, beating defenders with power (if possible) or else some combination of footwork, speed, and running good lines. Fixing defenders and passing; offloading in the tackle; moving the point of attack. Precision and timing with clearouts. In defense, athleticism to blitz for 80 minutes, timing to stay onside, precision to take down big ball carriers with good technique, etc.

Of course they'll need to be tough as nails, and master their set piece duties on top of all of this. But some specific requirement for a "toerag" to cause aggravation will become increasingly dated.

What is this based on?

bilston · 30-01-2020 12:31am

Neil3030 wrote: »

No.

It's incredible how quickly the game evolves. BOD only retired in 2013 and already you can see what worked in "his day", vs. today.

Successful packs are going to be increasingly built around players with athleticism and skill. In attack, beating defenders with power (if possible) or else some combination of footwork, speed, and running good lines. Fixing defenders and passing; offloading in the tackle; moving the point of attack. Precision and timing with clearouts. In defense, athleticism to blitz for 80 minutes, timing to stay onside, precision to take down big ball carriers with good technique, etc.

Of course they'll need to be tough as nails, and master their set piece duties on top of all of this. But some specific requirement for a "toerag" to cause aggravation will become increasingly dated.

I disagree. You still need to win the physical battle to win games more often than not. A stray boot, or forearm can sometimes soften the opposition up a bit. Look at how teams target Sexton with late hits. It used to happen to ROG a lot as well. You definitely still need a bit of bastardness in your team to shake the opposition up.

thebaz · 30-01-2020 12:32am

Neil3030 wrote: »

It's incredible how quickly the game evolves. BOD only retired in 2013 and already you can see what worked in "his day", vs. today.

Successful packs are going to be increasingly built around players with athleticism and skill. I

The game has completly changed since Dricos day - its all video anaysis/replay/citing now and tut tuting any form of a punch up, and most of the very dirty play is gone too .
Dont miss the real nasty stuff, but I do miss the odd punch up.

Neil3030 · 30-01-2020 12:44am

It's a fine line between toughness (which will always be required) and bastardness (which is of increasingly less value).

E.g., are teams targeting Sexton as much as they used to target ROG?

Are there as many stray boots, forearms etc being used to soften people up?

irishbucsfan · 30-01-2020 6:55am

Neil3030 wrote: »

It's a fine line between toughness (which will always be required) and bastardness (which is of increasingly less value).

E.g., are teams targeting Sexton as much as they used to target ROG?

Are there as many stray boots, forearms etc being used to soften people up?

Yes Sexton is constantly targeted.

And foul play around the rucks is still a huge part of the game. Holding people into the ruck, preventing the fold etc, teams still hugely value players who can do that while also being productive. Stray boots and forearms haven't been a big thing for a long long time. Nathan Hines hardly did any of that nasty stuff but was one of the most effective players in that mould to ever play on this island.

lawrencesummers · 30-01-2020 8:38am

It’s not about stray boots or forearms, because they get picked up by TMO’s and citing officers and can have big consequences.

It’s about the type of player who doesn’t just look to make a technically efficient tackle Because that’s what the stats demand, but uses the opportunity of a tackle to shake someone’s insides, clearing out at a ruck in a way that Makes opposition think twice about going into the next one. It’s about using every ounce of power and size when the opportunity to Legally hit the oppositions 10 presents itself.

Playing like Will Skelton has in the last few months brings sin binnings, but if you can bring his aggression and eliminate some of his foul play then you have it. There is a difference between a cheap shot and a good shot.

aloooof · 30-01-2020 9:22am

lawrencesummers wrote: »

It’s not about stray boots or forearms, because they get picked up by TMO’s and citing officers and can have big consequences.

It’s about the type of player who doesn’t just look to make a technically efficient tackle Because that’s what the stats demand, but uses the opportunity of a tackle to shake someone’s insides, clearing out at a ruck in a way that Makes opposition think twice about going into the next one. It’s about using every ounce of power and size when the opportunity to Legally hit the oppositions 10 presents itself.

Playing like Will Skelton has in the last few months brings sin binnings, but if you can bring his aggression and eliminate some of his foul play then you have it. There is a difference between a cheap shot and a good shot.

And therein lies the limitation of stats; all tackles are not made equal.

Neil3030 · 30-01-2020 9:30am

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yes Sexton is constantly targeted.

And foul play around the rucks is still a huge part of the game. Holding people into the ruck, preventing the fold etc, teams still hugely value players who can do that while also being productive. Stray boots and forearms haven't been a big thing for a long long time. Nathan Hines hardly did any of that nasty stuff but was one of the most effective players in that mould to ever play on this island.

None of those actions are those of a toerag, thug, hothead, etc. Which was the characteristic BOD said the squad is supposedly lacking.

lawrencesummers wrote: »

It’s not about stray boots or forearms, because they get picked up by TMO’s and citing officers and can have big consequences.

It’s about the type of player who doesn’t just look to make a technically efficient tackle Because that’s what the stats demand, but uses the opportunity of a tackle to shake someone’s insides, clearing out at a ruck in a way that Makes opposition think twice about going into the next one. It’s about using every ounce of power and size when the opportunity to Legally hit the oppositions 10 presents itself.

Playing like Will Skelton has in the last few months brings sin binnings, but if you can bring his aggression and eliminate some of his foul play then you have it. There is a difference between a cheap shot and a good shot.

And again here. This isn't toerag behaviour; hard but clean hits will always be part if the game.

lawrencesummers · 30-01-2020 9:38am

Sexton isn’t “targeted”

He’s a player on the field like any other and when he has the ball the name of the game is to tackle him. People mix up sextons approach of playing on the gain line which brings advantages (and made him the best player in the world at one stage) with getting hit hard in possesion

We would expect the very same from our players if Finn Russell every came to the gain line, but he doesn’t he stays away from it. Avoids it like it’s a bottle of pop.

Podge_irl · 30-01-2020 10:02am

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Sexton isn’t “targeted”

He’s a player on the field like any other and when he has the ball the name of the game is to tackle him. People mix up sextons approach of playing on the gain line which brings advantages (and made him the best player in the world at one stage) with getting hit hard in possesion

We would expect the very same from our players if Finn Russell every came to the gain line, but he doesn’t he stays away from it. Avoids it like it’s a bottle of pop.

Sexton is absolutely, 100% targeted. Yes he brings the ball to the line, just opening himself up to it, but there is many a slightly late hit where the tackler would have pulled out had it not been Sexton carrying the ball. That's just how it is.

Former Former · 30-01-2020 10:32am

Neil3030 wrote: »

None of those actions are those of a toerag, thug, hothead, etc. Which was the characteristic BOD said the squad is supposedly lacking.

He didn't really though. He was more talking about the lack of a really physical hard edge in the pack, about not taking a backward step more than going out trying to be dirty.

He cited O'Brien and Leamy as the sort of guys that he played with who had the mean streak that he thinks is lacking. I think he's right to be honest.

AdamD · 30-01-2020 10:39am

Is there any difference between Leamy and Stander's attitude? Other than Leamy having a redder face?

And James Ryan is more physical than any angry looking player that came before him. Its utter nonsense. I doubt Doris lacks any 'dog' either.

irishbucsfan · 30-01-2020 10:41am

Former Former wrote: »

He didn't really though. He was more talking about the lack of a really physical hard edge in the pack, about not taking a backward step more than going out trying to be dirty.

He cited O'Brien and Leamy as the sort of guys that he played with who had the mean streak that he thinks is lacking. I think he's right to be honest.

Yes I can definitely see that.

A lot of that has to happen off the ball due to the basic nature of rugby but it doesn’t have to be “foul play”. I think there’s a huge gap there now for someone to step into, I’m absolutely 100% sure Ryan has the physical presence, brains and work rare to become that player. It is always, as far as I remember from any player who excelled in that area at the highest level, a product of experience though.

Granny15 · 30-01-2020 10:52am

Larbre34 wrote: »

Annnnnnnnnnnnnnyway.

O'Driscoll on OTB there this evening making the very plausible argument that this Ireland squad, in particular the forward pack, is lacking a toerag, a thug, a hothead, a grappler, a street-fighter, an instigator, a lunatic, an enforcer, an agent provocateur.

Do we agree? If so do we see a Bakkies, a Burger, a Cudmore, a Johnson or even an O'Connell emerging from within this group? Will we need a physical talisman, a colossus to cause aggro in London and Paris?

I would argue that most Irish players are from well off backgrounds and this doesn't feed into the perception that they can go out and do a job in tough circumstances. Munster used to have a few players who were dogged but Leinster lack that in place of statistical robots. It has also removed all creativity from the game.

They are too into game analysis rather than the things that strike fear into an opposition. Things like hitting rucks, lying on top of players and squashing them when on the ground, pointing out your opposition number in the defensive line and calling him out that you are going to hammer him in a tackle.

The modern player in Ireland and indeed the game in general globally has turned into an apology of physical dominance. You can't lift a player and put him on his ar5e in the tackle. You can't do a shoulder high no arms hit which used to level players. The sting has gone out of the game which suits the the well heeled perceptions and reality of players playing the game.

Bring back the old days and you'll see a few more bruisers in the game.

30-01-2020 10:54am

AdamD wrote: »

Is there any difference between Leamy and Stander's attitude? Other than Leamy having a redder face?

And James Ryan is more physical than any angry looking player that came before him. Its utter nonsense. I doubt Doris lacks any 'dog' either.

He's reeling off lads he played with. He's never played with Ryan or very limited with Furlong, or any of the hookers in the squad, or Doris or Stander. The SOB he played with is in the conversation as our best forward of the pro era so it's hardly a revelation to say that player would improve the pack. He hasn't been that player for a good while though.

lawrencesummers · 30-01-2020 10:55am

AdamD wrote: »

Is there any difference between Leamy and Stander's attitude? Other than Leamy having a redder face?

And James Ryan is more physical than any angry looking player that came before him. Its utter nonsense. I doubt Doris lacks any 'dog' either.

If you had a choice between getting into an argument with leamy in his prime or CJ ?

I know Who I would pick.

Former Former · 30-01-2020 10:59am

AdamD wrote: »

Is there any difference between Leamy and Stander's attitude? Other than Leamy having a redder face?

And James Ryan is more physical than any angry looking player that came before him. Its utter nonsense. I doubt Doris lacks any 'dog' either.

I would never have put Stander in the same category as Leamy in terms of abrasiveness to be honest. Nor would I have said James Ryan was a 'dog' of a second row either.

Maybe the game has just moved on, maybe O'Driscoll just isn't as familiar with these guys having not played with them (which he acknowledged himself), but I could see where he's coming from.

aloooof · 30-01-2020 11:01am

My perception of the closest we have to that now is probably Leavy.

Paul Smeenus · 30-01-2020 11:11am

We didn't have any "dog" when we were all-conquering throughout 2018. The issue isn't a lack of hardmen, it's players getting older and Joe's coaching not moving on last year. A good, abrasive character is fun in terms of getting behind your team - it doesn't necessarily do much to win games.

Podge_irl · 30-01-2020 11:16am

Leamy and DOC's aggression didn't exactly come up trumps in that '07 game against Argentina. It was, in fact, a massive liability as they got so bloody riled up trying to get at Contepomi.

stephen_n · 30-01-2020 11:16am

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yes I can definitely see that.

A lot of that has to happen off the ball due to the basic nature of rugby but it doesn’t have to be “foul play”. I think there’s a huge gap there now for someone to step into, I’m absolutely 100% sure Ryan has the physical presence, brains and work rare to become that player. It is always, as far as I remember from any player who excelled in that area at the highest level, a product of experience though.

Fardy does it for Leinster and to an extent recently so does Moloney. The ability to play on the edge and physically impose yourself. Think Joe was so concerned with Discipline that it wasn’t something he wanted in the team though.

Utah_Saint · 30-01-2020 11:19am

Ferris could still do a job of enforcer...still only 34..

kilns · 30-01-2020 11:21am

Its silly stuff really, there is no place for guys like this in the game anymore. Id rather a guy who can physically imposed himself lawfully and not be outmuscled in defensive situations but can keep their discipline rather than one of these "dogs" who cross the line, give away silly penalties, get stupid yellow cards because they are so "tough" and ultimately end up losing the game for your team

DelBoy Trotter · 30-01-2020 11:26am

For those of you who don't venture into the Bargain Alerts forum....Elverys are selling the current Irish jersey for 35 quid at the moment

ionadnapokot · 30-01-2020 11:54am

DelBoy Trotter wrote: »

For those of you who don't venture into the Bargain Alerts forum....Elverys are selling the current Irish jersey for 35 quid at the moment

I think it’s the phone jersey? Can’t bring myself to buy a phone jersey.
Did you see the RWC one on sale?

aloooof · 30-01-2020 12:43pm

Just put all the stats from this article together:

| VdF | Stander | Deegan | Doris | JOD | POM
Minutes | | 989 | 889 | 743 | |
Tackle Success | 94% | | 87.3% | 96% | 88.4% | 87.7%
Jackals | 6 | 4 | 0 | 6 | | 8
Lineout Jumps / Won | 1 | 11 | 19 | 16 | | 28
Lineout Steals | | | | | 3 | 10
Linebreaks | 8 | | 12 | 5 | 9 | 1
Carries | | 225 | 130 | 117 | |
Metres/Carry | | 1.8 | | 3.5 | 2.4 | 1.48
Passes | | 55 | 27 | 18 | |
Offloads | | 8 | 2 | 4 | |
Defenders Beaten | | | 24 | 31 | 14 | 6
Try Assists | | |4 | |
Penalties Conceded | | | | | 19 | 11

Alot of it tells us what we already knew, but the surprising one for me was Standers passing and offloading stats.

It's a shame the complete set isn't there; the metrics could then also be converted to "per 80 mins" for an even better comparison.

30-01-2020 12:56pm

Scotland have named their team:

Scotland: 15 Stuart Hogg (c), 14 Sean Maitland, 13 Huw Jones, 12 Sam Johnson, 11 Blair Kinghorn, 10 Adam Hastings, 9 Ali Price, 8 Nick Haining, 7 Hamish Watson, 6 Jamie Ritchie, 5 Jonny Gray, 4 Scott Cummings, 3 Zander Fagerson, 2 Fraser Brown, 1 Rory Sutherland

Replacements: 16 Stuart McInally, 17 Allan Dell, 18 Simon Berghan, 19 Ben Toolis, 20 Cornell du Preez, 21 George Horne, 22 Rory Hutchinson, 23 Chris Harris

typhoony · 30-01-2020 1:31pm

I know very little about their NO.8 but it appears he's a bit of a journeyman from the Southern Hemisphere. hasn't played much at a top level. doesn't look the strongest Scotland team we've faced.

Good for Doris to be coming up against a newcomer not a Vunipola

30-01-2020 1:34pm

I'm going to go with a conservative 47 - 10 to Ireland.

We will dominate the scrum for 80 minutes and they have Edinburgh's third choice 8 at the back which means even their own put in's could end up messy.

Their 10 and 12 channel are vulnerable.

They've some real unknowns coming off the bench.

They've one of the best back three's in the tournament on paper but they'll need to find scores from counter attacking rugby because I don't see that pack having any parity against ours.

Big question whether Townsend has the dressing room. He has the look of someone who is awaiting the inevitable and probably would be glad to get out of Scottish rugby for a while.

Yeah_Right · 30-01-2020 3:11pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Sexton is absolutely, 100% targeted. Yes he brings the ball to the line, just opening himself up to it, but there is many a slightly late hit where the tackler would have pulled out had it not been Sexton carrying the ball. That's just how it is.

Every half decent 10 or 9 is targeted. They handle the ball the most and direct a teams play so of course the opposition tries to rattle them. It's not just Sexton.

Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

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