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Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

1157158160162163203

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,822 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    So what if he's big heavy second row. Is the scrum really been such an issue that it needs to be strengthened up that much?

    In general, look at the world cup final, look at Saracens beating Leinster, if you lose the scrum it can prevent you from getting much of a foothold in the match.

    Against Italy maybe it won't come down to the scrum, but against France it certainly could.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    In general, look at the world cup final, look at Saracens beating Leinster, if you lose the scrum it can prevent you from getting much of a foothold in the match.

    Against Italy maybe it won't come down to the scrum, but against France it certainly could.
    And a second row isnt going to be near why the scrum will be difference between winning and losing especially when international games have around 13/14 scrums per game. If it was the 80s and there were 30+ scrums a game then maybe but not now.


  • Subscribers Posts: 41,825 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    And a second row isnt going to be near why the scrum will be difference between winning and losing

    that is quite a naive statement


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    that is quite a naive statement
    Im saying a second row like Roux is not going to be the big difference that some are trying to say he would be.


  • Subscribers Posts: 41,825 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Im saying a second row like Roux is not going to be the big difference that some are trying to say he would be.

    When it comes to scrum time, there is probably no better tighthead lock available in the country.

    outside of the scrum, i agree that he wont be the winning or losing of a game.... and his discipline can be a hindrance...

    but we're discussing Roux in the strict terms of the scrum here... and to say that he wouldn't make a difference to the winning or losing of the scrum just isnt correct. He is incredibly influential at that aspect.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    When it comes to scrum time, there is probably no better tighthead lock available in the country.

    outside of the scrum, i agree that he wont be the winning or losing of a game.... and his discipline can be a hindrance...

    but we're discussing Roux in the strict terms of the scrum here... and to say that he wouldn't make a difference to the winning or losing of the scrum just isnt correct. He is incredibly influential at that aspect.
    But he wont be the difference between winning and losing the game which is what matters.


  • Subscribers Posts: 41,825 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    But he wont be the difference between winning and losing the game which is what matters.

    very definitive statement there.

    its incredibly hard to win any game is your scrum is giving away penalties all the time... there is quite recent evidence for this.

    J-in-J has already stated why the inclusion of Roux is a valid suggestion.

    you can be guaranteed that France will target our scrum as a point of weakness for us. You asked:
    Is the scrum really been such an issue that it needs to be strengthened up that much?

    and i think many would argue that yes, it is... especially considering missing first choice tight head and an ageing first choice loose head, and missing his able replacement


  • Subscribers Posts: 41,825 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    As far as the mindset of the players is concerned I believe it is possible to determine what that is like individually and collectively by merely watching them play. Trying to pull off flicks behind the back or forwards stationed out on the wings are signs of Prima Donna attitude. It’s not the players’ faults they simply haven’t been taught not to do these things. I know some will say sometimes it’s in Leo’s gameplan to create mismatches on the wing and have forwards blazing down that channel but I think if you are young and trying to make an impression you get stuck in to the basics and are seen to be working your ass off. You don’t hang out in the wide channels. This could also be said of tackling technique, trying too many fancy plays, kicking the ball excessively (I.e. hogging possession to make yourself look good) or simply not digging out tough matches.

    just to come back to this again.... its absolutely dripping with the conservatism and over-management that has been used as a stick to beat irish rugby with over the last couple of years. Allowing the players to be freer to play is what we should be aiming for...

    or we end up with this:

    https://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2020/1010/1170715-irish-mitre-10-new-zealand-regan-odonnell-jager/

    I remember once at home I threw an offload behind my back in training and a coach came up and said that was awesome, but do it again and I’ll drop you
    I find I have changed my game a good bit. My skills have come on a lot. Even when we are playing tag, I’m pulling out all sorts of moves.

    Through the leg passes and behind the head passes, I couldn’t do that before.

    They don’t give out to you for some stuff. If you make a line break, you are encouraged to keep the ball alive. It can be riskier, but those passes are on more because support players are looking for them rather than going to a ruck.


  • Registered Users Posts: 85 ✭✭Guinness RFC


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    just to come back to this again.... its absolutely dripping with the conservatism and over-management that has been used as a stick to beat irish rugby with over the last couple of years. Allowing the players to be freer to play is what we should be aiming for...

    or we end up with this:

    https://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2020/1010/1170715-irish-mitre-10-new-zealand-regan-odonnell-jager/

    Being free to play doesn’t mean every forward becomes a back. They still have a job to do. Discipline wins games and disciplining players for sloppy or selfish play reaps rewards in the long term.


  • Subscribers Posts: 41,825 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Yes mistress


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭Dog Botherer


    is guinness okay


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    very definitive statement there.

    its incredibly hard to win any game is your scrum is giving away penalties all the time... there is quite recent evidence for this.

    J-in-J has already stated why the inclusion of Roux is a valid suggestion.

    you can be guaranteed that France will target our scrum as a point of weakness for us. You asked:

    and i think many would argue that yes, it is... especially considering missing first choice tight head and an ageing first choice loose head, and missing his able replacement
    we're talking about a second row not a prop which is very different.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,822 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    we're talking about a second row not a prop which is very different.

    I think you’re not appreciating how important the tight head lock is in a scrum.
    It is a physically demanding position, and Quinn Roux and Jean Kleyn have the ideal type of build for that role.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    I think you’re not appreciating how important the tight head lock is in a scrum.
    It is a physically demanding position, and Quinn Roux and Jean Kleyn have the ideal type of build for that role.
    And the other second row isnt a physically demanding position?
    you are putting far too much of an emphasis on the tight head second row. yes playing scrum behind your tighthead is physically demanding but it can vary hugely depending on need but the second row is not going to be near cause of issues in scrum compared to anything in front row.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,066 ✭✭✭Richie_Rich89


    I think you’re not appreciating how important the tight head lock is in a scrum.
    It is a physically demanding position, and Quinn Roux and Jean Kleyn have the ideal type of build for that role.

    Yeah, it's become pretty important. 15 or 20 years ago you'd get a turnover on opposition put-in if the scrum went through 90 degrees. Now, you're in danger of getting penalised for 'walking around' if you don't hold it square on opposition put in. That means you need a lot of stability on the tighthead side, and a strong-scrummaging th lock can be a big help with that.

    Wheeling used to be an art form and it was only 'whipping', or pulling back on the th side while going forward on the other, that was illegal. That's gone out of the game now, though.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,880 ✭✭✭✭PTH2009


    The Italy match must be cursed

    Country going into level 5 with no sporting events to take place


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    PTH2009 wrote: »
    The Italy match must be cursed

    Country going into level 5 with no sporting events to take place

    Surely there'll some kind of exception.

    Please.

    I beg you.

    I need this.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,078 ✭✭✭PCros


    PTH2009 wrote: »
    The Italy match must be cursed

    Country going into level 5 with no sporting events to take place

    Even if it goes to Level 4 can this proceed?


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,688 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    PCros wrote: »
    Even if it goes to Level 4 can this proceed?

    Yes at level 4
    No at level 5


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,790 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203




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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,542 ✭✭✭FACECUTTR




  • Closed Accounts Posts: 100 ✭✭rayd3


    What hate? Haven’t seen any of those usu opinion pieces about Seamus Lowe or Seamuson Gibson-Pork yet. Curious isn’t it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,066 ✭✭✭Richie_Rich89


    Zebo's starting for Racing and Ryan's on the bench. I wonder if an acceptable compromise to the selection of overseas players chestnut would be that they be considered for World Cups, but not for everything else?

    Would that be enough to incentivise most top players to stay?

    Having players who are making a success of playing for foreign teams filter into the squad could be a bit of a boost. They could bring an insider's knowledge and confidence when trying to go about beating certain teams, and, from a psychological point of view, it could make the squad feel as if they're stronger than at other times. Let's face it, Ireland needs all the help they can get at World Cup time.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,997 ✭✭✭gally74


    molloyjh wrote: »
    Whats everyone else thinking in terms of a first choice 23 for the 2 6Ns games? Is the below the most likely or am I missing someone?

    Healy Herring Porter
    Dillane Ryan
    Doris Stander VDF

    Murray Sexton
    Aki Ringrose
    Stockdale Keenan Conway

    Kelleher, Byrne, Ryan, Roux, Conan, Marmion, Byrne, Henshaw

    mot a chance murray starts


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 937 ✭✭✭Kevski


    gally74 wrote: »
    mot a chance murray starts

    I would love to believe that but I wouldn’t be getting my hopes up about it happening.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Kearnage on the late late right now


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    gally74 wrote: »
    mot a chance murray starts

    I'd get down to your local bookmaker to see if he'll offer odds on it if you think that's the case. Murray will be starting unless he's injured.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    gally74 wrote: »
    mot a chance murray starts

    By far the most likely starter, I'd have thought.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,808 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    Think Molloy has pretty much nailed the team above...

    Not sure who partners Ryan though. CJ and Doris could potentially switch.

    15 Jacob Stockdale
    14 Andrew Conway
    13 Garry Ringrose
    12 Bundee Aki
    11 Hugo Keenan
    10 Jonathan Sexton
    9 Conor Murray
    1 Cian Healy
    2 Rob Herring
    3 Andrew Porter
    4 Not sure
    5 James Ryan
    6 CJ Stander
    7 Josh Van Der Flier
    8 Caolan Doris

    Definitely should beat Italy...could struggle in Paris though.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,816 ✭✭✭LostArt


    gally74 wrote: »
    mot a chance murray starts


    I'd be quite surprised if he didn't start these two games, November might be different though


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    rayd3 wrote: »
    What hate? Haven’t seen any of those usu opinion pieces about Seamus Lowe or Seamuson Gibson-Pork yet. Curious isn’t it.

    There's a ton of crap posted under the promo pictures on Facebook.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭Dog Botherer


    There's a ton of crap posted under the promo pictures on Facebook.

    Not surprised. Facebook is even more of a sewer than Twitter these days.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    Not surprised. Facebook is even more of a sewer than Twitter these days.

    Funnily enough, 1 was complaining lowe is holding back other players, when challenged, they started naming forwards.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭Dog Botherer


    Funnily enough, 1 was complaining lowe is holding back other players, when challenged, they started naming forwards.

    probably forgot to rewrite their notes from when Stander got capped


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,188 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    Doris wins Irish Young Player of the Year. Well deserved too. Been a rapid rise through the ranks.

    https://twitter.com/leinsterrugby/status/1317539747997384704?s=19


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,188 ✭✭✭✭Clegg




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,415 ✭✭✭Dave_The_Sheep


    Not a surprise, or unwarranted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,790 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    Govt decision tmrw. Level 4+ expected going by Simon Harris on TWIP

    Might see the IRFU move all games to Belfast


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,166 ✭✭✭✭Zzippy


    Burkie1203 wrote: »
    Govt decision tmrw. Level 4+ expected going by Simon Harris on TWIP

    Might see the IRFU move all games to Belfast

    Why? NI is under lockdown already. There won't be fans at the games wherever they are held.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,790 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    Zzippy wrote: »
    Why? NI is under lockdown already. There won't be fans at the games wherever they are held.

    If we go Level 5 elite sport is off.

    Simon Harris said "govt will act decisively"

    It's level 4 minimum. NI seem to have an elite sport exemption though.


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  • Subscribers Posts: 41,825 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Burkie1203 wrote: »
    If we go Level 5 elite sport is off.

    Has that been confirmed in regards to rugby?

    Up to two days ago they were still saying rugby could be exempt

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/rugby-may-be-exempt-to-continue-under-possible-level-5-restrictions-1.4383127%3fmode=amp


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,408 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    Has that been confirmed in regards to rugby?

    Up to two days ago they were still saying rugby could be exempt

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/rugby-may-be-exempt-to-continue-under-possible-level-5-restrictions-1.4383127%3fmode=amp

    The levels have fallen apart at the first Hurdle, level 3+. They will make changes every time they implement a level I think. Nothing is in stone now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,767 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    salmocab wrote: »
    The levels have fallen apart at the first Hurdle, level 3+. They will make changes every time they implement a level I think. Nothing is in stone now.

    It never was in stone. They said as much when they released the details of the levels. They were only ever guidelines.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,880 ✭✭✭✭PTH2009


    Like another user said we need something to look forward too and nothing better than the 6 nations for our rugby fix


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,808 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    Zzippy wrote: »
    Why? NI is under lockdown already. There won't be fans at the games wherever they are held.

    600 fans still allowed at sporting events in Northern Ireland.

    Surely even if you guys go to L5 the authorities could bring in an exemption for elite sport. Aren't the players tested once a week? Stick them in a bubble for a couple of months like the England Cricket team did in the summer. Pain in the arse for the players, especially those with young families.. but the alternative is that their employer loses a shed load of money...and since their employer pays their wages...


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,250 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    The "elite sport" distinction needs to go and change it to pro sport. It is far more feasible for a pro player to isolate with the squad for a period.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,616 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    A large part of the problem is people gathering to watch.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,808 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    errlloyd wrote: »
    A large part of the problem is people gathering to watch.

    Sometimes people have to take responsibility for themselves


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,616 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    bilston wrote: »
    Sometimes people have to take responsibility for themselves

    With respect, that is unfortunately not how this works.

    This is a contagious virus, there is no personal responsibility. The consequences of actions are felt on a population level, not a personal one.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,720 ✭✭✭✭AdamD


    Pro sport will be exempt though, for the exact reason outlined - they're in a bubble.


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