Tina Satchwell Mod note in op

Day Lewin · 14-01-2021 6:54pm

Rows Grower wrote: »

I think it was the biggest search operation ever carried out in the state, there was massive resources put into it.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/search-for-missing-tina-satchwell-in-castlemartyr-woods-ends-36711839.html

Ain't necessarily so. I mean, I can recall a VERY large and ambitious search operation that was conducted in Dublin, (after a tip-off in a completely different case) - that was also apparently fruitless.

But here's the thing: the Gardaí really can't afford to ignore a tip-off, of any kind.
Imagine if the witness reported something that might have been vaguely suspicious, in approximately the right area (this applies to any case, any case at all - murders, missing persons, whatever)

and suppose the Guards just shrugged it off and didn't really search hard;

Years later, when "that body" is found "right there" just imagine the hue and cry!!!
The headlines!!

"The Guards were advised of something by a helpful member of the public, and they did nothing!!" -
Well I'm sure you can imagine.

and sometimes even the smallest scrap of info can be useful...

- - so they may have searched, and found nothing, and it might have a waste of effort and money, but they still had to do it, do you see?

Day Lewin · 14-01-2021 6:56pm

PS That being said, it does look very much as if the missing Tina Satchwell may have met a sad end, and I'm sure the Guards are working from that possibility.

Rows Grower · 14-01-2021 7:26pm

Day Lewin wrote: »

Ain't necessarily so. I mean, I can recall a VERY large and ambitious search operation that was conducted in Dublin, (after a tip-off in a completely different case) - that was also apparently fruitless.

But here's the thing: the Gardaí really can't afford to ignore a tip-off, of any kind.
Imagine if the witness reported something that might have been vaguely suspicious, in approximately the right area (this applies to any case, any case at all - murders, missing persons, whatever)

and suppose the Guards just shrugged it off and didn't really search hard;

Years later, when "that body" is found "right there" just imagine the hue and cry!!!
The headlines!!

"The Guards were advised of something by a helpful member of the public, and they did nothing!!" -
Well I'm sure you can imagine.

and sometimes even the smallest scrap of info can be useful...

- - so they may have searched, and found nothing, and it might have a waste of effort and money, but they still had to do it, do you see?

Ehhh, sorry to break it ya after all your typing but everyone is aware of that.

Cona · 14-01-2021 8:20pm

Ya...the point I was making was that the guards would have to of exhausted other areas for her going missing before spending €€€ on a huge dig operation. That leads me to believe the is zero CCTV evidence etc of her leaving on bus/taxi/car etc. Personally I think the guards suspect the worst but have very little evidence.

Bussywussy · 15-01-2021 12:22pm

Cona wrote: »

Ya...the point I was making was that the guards would have to of exhausted other areas for her going missing before spending €€€ on a huge dig operation. That leads me to believe the is zero CCTV evidence etc of her leaving on bus/taxi/car etc. Personally I think the guards suspect the worst but have very little evidence.

Or they do have evidence but need a body to go further

BENDYBINN · 15-01-2021 12:40pm

Can someone be charged with murder if no body found?
Any such cases?

Seth Brundle · 15-01-2021 12:45pm

BENDYBINN wrote: »

Can someone be charged with murder if no body found?
Any such cases?

Robert Nirac's murder

Cona · 15-01-2021 1:14pm

BENDYBINN wrote: »

Can someone be charged with murder if no body found?
Any such cases?

I’d imagine you would need overwhelming evidence in other areas which is unlikely as the guards wouldn’t have allowed 3 years to pass if they did.

Hard to know what evidence would be found on the body now after 3 years (assuming this is Tina they found).

This seems to be another Sophie/Ian Bailey case in the making...

Newuser2 · 15-01-2021 1:15pm

Cona wrote: »

I’d imagine you would need overwhelming evidence in other areas which is unlikely as the guards wouldn’t have allowed 3 years to pass if they did.

Hard to know what evidence would be found on the body now after 3 years (assuming this is Tina they found).

This seems to be another Sophie/Ian Bailey case in the making...

I wouldn't jump to that conclusion yet

Rows Grower · 15-01-2021 1:18pm

Cona wrote: »

I’d imagine you would need overwhelming evidence in other areas which is unlikely as the guards wouldn’t have allowed 3 years to pass if they did.

Hard to know what evidence would be found on the body now after 3 years (assuming this is Tina they found).

This seems to be another Sophie/Ian Bailey case in the making...

Are you in anyway familiar with the case you mentioned?

15-01-2021 3:44pm

How long do they expect it will take to clarify if the remains are hers?

Necro · 15-01-2021 4:06pm

Mod:

How many times does this have to be posted - NO SPECULATION.

Rows Grower, Cona and Deec do not post in this thread again

Cona · 15-01-2021 4:18pm

Necro wrote: »

Mod:

How many times does this have to be posted - NO SPECULATION.

Rows Grower, Cona and Deec do not post in this thread again

Get ****ed

Mod: Banned

fin12 · 15-01-2021 4:29pm

BENDYBINN wrote: »

Can someone be charged with murder if no body found?
Any such cases?

YES, watch the show forensic files. Loads of people have been charged with murder without a body.

Necro · 15-01-2021 5:04pm

Mod:

Deec's threadban lifted after discussion with poster

Larsso30 · 15-01-2021 5:42pm

fin12 wrote: »

YES, watch the show forensic files. Loads of people have been charged with murder without a body.

Not in Ireland. Very few in the history of the state

Day Lewin · 15-01-2021 5:53pm

Larsso30 wrote: »

Not in Ireland. Very few in the history of the state

True, but there have been a couple, sometimes quite high profile.

However, although you don't always need a body to prosecute on a charge of homicide, you do need something better than a vague opinion that "Its probably the husband"

I mean, sadly, if women are murdered the most common culprit IS their intimate partner;
- not always, though. You need something more concrete than statistics and opinion!

Day Lewin · 15-01-2021 5:54pm

Deleted User wrote: »

How long do they expect it will take to clarify if the remains are hers?

They haven't said, afaik; but around three to four weeks would be typical.

Necro · 15-01-2021 5:59pm

Mod:

Rows Grower's threadban lifted after discussion with poster

BENDYBINN · 15-01-2021 6:15pm

Day Lewin wrote: »

True, but there have been a couple, sometimes quite high profile.

However, although you don't always need a body to prosecute on a charge of homicide, you do need something better than a vague opinion that "Its probably the husband"

I mean, sadly, if women are murdered the most common culprit IS their intimate partner;
- not always, though. You need something more concrete than statistics and opinion!

Yes, the first person to be questioned is the spouse.............says a lot about marriage really........

Ann22 · 15-01-2021 7:10pm

BENDYBINN wrote: »

Yes, the first person to be questioned is the spouse.............says a lot about marriage really........

Michaela McAreavey RIP and Jill Meaher's RIP husbands were initially wrongly suspected. God help them both..such tragedies.

tdf7187 · 15-01-2021 7:23pm

Ann22 wrote: »

Michaela McAreavey RIP and Jill Meaher's RIP husbands were initially wrongly suspected. God help them both..such tragedies.

There was a case in England also, the tabloids and cops fingered Christopher Jefferies, his 'crime' being having an acquaintance with the murder victim and being perceived as eccentric. It was nothing to do with him and he successfully sued them.

eviltwin · 15-01-2021 7:27pm

BENDYBINN wrote: »

Yes, the first person to be questioned is the spouse.............says a lot about marriage really........

It says a lot about the reality of living with someone. A spouse is with you in the privacy of your home so is an obvious choice. Same as your flatmate would be or your cousin if you lived with them.

BENDYBINN · 15-01-2021 7:36pm

eviltwin wrote: »

It says a lot about the reality of living with someone. A spouse is with you in the privacy of your home so is an obvious choice. Same as your flatmate would be or your cousin if you lived with them.

Not really, very easy to leave your flatmate or your cousin.......spouse on the other hand your stuck with them till death do you part....

P.Walnuts · 15-01-2021 8:04pm

BENDYBINN wrote: »

Not really, very easy to leave your flatmate or your cousin.......spouse on the other hand your stuck with them till death do you part....

Yeah death, or you know, a divorce.

BENDYBINN · 15-01-2021 8:11pm

P.Walnuts wrote: »

Yeah death, or you know, a divorce.

Yea divorce so simple........

Larsso30 · 15-01-2021 8:41pm

BENDYBINN wrote: »

Yes, the first person to be questioned is the spouse.............says a lot about marriage really........

Statistically it usually is the husband/partner so standard enough line to take

Dante7 · 15-01-2021 8:49pm

BENDYBINN wrote: »

Yes, the first person to be questioned is the spouse.............says a lot about marriage really........

If you've been married and haven't thought about how you could kill your spouse and get away with it, you're not normal.

gozunda · 16-01-2021 1:42pm

Dante7 wrote: »

If you've been married and haven't thought about how you could kill your spouse and get away with it, you're not normal.

Have you told your wife?

And I'd disagree. I don't think it is normal to be going around ruminating on how to do with the other half and get away with it.

Eitherway possibly not a good idea to put such ideation online for the public record ...

TheBoyConor · 16-01-2021 1:46pm

Exactly. If it did even happen that you're wife went missing, as the husband you'd be the first suspect they're gonna investigate, and if that post came to light, it could paint you in a very bad light and works be a piece of circumstantial evidence against you.

CrabRevolution · 16-01-2021 2:47pm

P.Walnuts wrote: »

Yeah death, or you know, a divorce.

Not exactly related but I read an article on the BBC website before about a group who campaigned for the release from prison of women who killed their partners. Usually not even in self defence; one of them was even killed in his sleep. The usual lines of "It's his fault anyway, he mistreated her" or "she had no other way out" got airings.

While obviously domestic violence is a complex subject and it's never as simple as just walking away; with all the compassion in the world I can't accept that these women weighed up the options of "messy breakup and all the follows" vs. "murder him and subsequent imprisonment" and came to the logical conclusion that murder was the route containing less hassle. Even if he was scum, the idea that it's preferable that he dies rather than the woman having to deal with ending the relationship just doesn't wash with me.

TheBoyConor · 16-01-2021 2:58pm

To be honest I would have the greatest of sympathy with cases where a woman was tormented and bullied and abused with years to the point that she would snap and kill him.
I think no woman in that situation should be imprisoned. They suffered enough cruel degrading treatment during their marriages.

Dante7 · 16-01-2021 3:25pm

gozunda wrote: »

Have you told your wife?

And I'd disagree. I don't think it is normal to be going around ruminating on how to do with the other half and get away with it.

Eitherway possibly not a good idea to put such ideation online for the public record ...

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Exactly. If it did even happen that you're wife went missing, as the husband you'd be the first suspect they're gonna investigate, and if that post came to light, it could paint you in a very bad light and works be a piece of circumstantial evidence against you.

I think I'd be ok. My defence would be along the lines of, that post on boards was not an admission of premeditation, but rather a particular linguistic device that is commonly known as a joke. Anyone who took it seriously is clearly an idiot. That, coupled with the fact that I have had no contact with her since she moved to a different continent over ten years ago would probably rule me out of their enquiries.

gozunda · 16-01-2021 3:47pm

Dante7 wrote: »

I think I'd be ok. My defence would be along the lines of, that post on boards was not an admission of premeditation, but rather a particular linguistic device that is commonly known as a joke. Anyone who took it seriously is clearly an idiot. That, coupled with the fact that I have had no contact with her since she moved to a different continent over ten years ago would probably rule me out of their enquiries.

Hmmm I'm not convinced. If that was a decent defence every murderer in the country would be queueing to crack a joke online and then declaring that 'ah sure Yer Honour I was just having the crack'. I dont think anyone that's stupid tbf ...

Dante7 · 16-01-2021 3:54pm

gozunda wrote: »

Hmmm I'm not convinced. If that was a decent defence every murderer in the country would be queueing to crack a joke online and then declaring that 'ah sure Yer Honour I was just having the crack'. I dont think anyone that's stupid tbf ...

Hangdogroad · 16-01-2021 3:59pm

Larsso30 wrote: »

Not in Ireland. Very few in the history of the state

There seems to be a very high burden of proof required in comparison to in Britain. There have been a few cases brought to trial over the last twenty or so years but none successful. The most recent being the case of Sandra Collins in Mayo.

BENDYBINN · 16-01-2021 5:07pm

Dante7 wrote: »

I think I'd be ok. My defence would be along the lines of, that post on boards was not an admission of premeditation, but rather a particular linguistic device that is commonly known as a joke. Anyone who took it seriously is clearly an idiot. That, coupled with the fact that I have had no contact with her since she moved to a different continent over ten years ago would probably rule me out of their enquiries.[/QUOTE

She moved to another continent you say.............

Sultan of Bling · 17-01-2021 2:21am

TheBoyConor wrote:

To be honest I would have the greatest of sympathy with cases where a woman was tormented and bullied and abused with years to the point that she would snap and kill him. I think no woman in that situation should be imprisoned. They suffered enough cruel degrading treatment during their marriages.

Would you feel the same about a man in that situation?

TheBoyConor · 17-01-2021 4:01am

Honestly as a man myself, I would not have the same sympathy. I know it is a sexist view on it but it is one of those situations where there is just a natural imbalance between the genders. Let me explain.

On average, a woman who is being abused by an abusive husband is at a far greater risk of physical harm or isolation. She may fear being physically over powered, not have the same financial resources to fall back on if she were to run away making it very difficult (may be out if workforce to have and care for children. She may also have the children to care for and protect.. there is the added risk of rape and further pregnancy. )

On the other hand, the average man who is being abused by a wife realistically doesn't have much reason to fear being physically overpowered (not impossible, but less likely) doesn't necessarily have the same caring responsibilities for children ( 99% of the time it's the woman left holding the baby), and the risk of sexual abuse or pregnancy isn't possible. He will also usually have more financial independence than the woman.

Basically in an abusive relationship a woman is in a very much more vulnerable position than a man, the stakes are much higher for her. so there must be some understanding of when a woman takes drastic and decisive action to protect themselves from further abuse. It may be a case of this or being subject to a further escalation of abuse.

Oh course there are the odd rare cases of plain murder, but an awful lot of wife on husband killings are a desperate self preservation reaction against severe and ongoing abuse and bullying. Essentially, by their abusive behavior, these men have brought about their own downfall by abusing and pushing their partners to breaking point.

Of course, killing is wrong, but these women are driven to it as a last resort to protect themselves. I would have great sympathy for these women and I can understand the campaign to have their plights and the reasons that caused their actions understood. I would not be in favor of custodial sentences for women in this situation unless it can be shown that there was malicious intent, or an attempt to make a material gain from the killing, and where it can be shown that the killing was done for self preservation reasons and that they were in fear.

Its just a different situation between the genders. Just like sexual offences, a woman is at a high risk of physical harm and trauma from an unwanted approach, whereas a man who receives unwanted sexual advances, while perhaps annoyed, realistically isn't at much risk of any sort of physical harm, so it's not anywhere near as serious when it's male on female, and it would be a very unusual occurrence anyway.

Day Lewin · 17-01-2021 9:32am

Slightly off topic, maybe; but I can't help commenting!

Yes it is true that a woman is in much greater physical danger from a male intimate partner than he is from her; statistics bear this out - chilling, sobering.

But let's not be naive that women can't be vindictive, cruel, exploitative slimeballs - because - sadly - they can. Human nature is well capable of that - no sexism here, please.

Automatically going for the "poor little thing" defense has got a lot of women off the hook who could have been on it. I've seen honest men tormented - verbally, rather than physically, (afaik) but even the worm will turn, in the end.

Note: I am NOT saying that this has anything at all to do with the Satchwell case - as best I'm aware, it doesn't. Just a comment on sexism in judgement of homicide. Beware.

TheBoyConor · 17-01-2021 10:39am

A claim of being pregnant is a trump card to trot out for getting off without a custodial sentence.

Or another one is expressing an intent to get pregnant in the near future and that going to jail would prevent that, and goes against the right to found a family. So the court is stuck, they might have to leave her off no matter what vile crime she's done.

corks finest · 17-01-2021 10:44am

TheBoyConor wrote: »

A claim of being pregnant is a trump card to trot out for getting off without a custodial sentence.

Or another one is expressing an intent to get pregnant in the near future and that going to jail would prevent that, and goes against the right to found a family. So the court is stuck, they might have to leave her off no matter what vile crime she's done.

Murder is custodial manslaughter sometimes not, irrespective of circumstances

corks finest · 17-01-2021 10:47am

TheBoyConor wrote: »

To be honest I would have the greatest of sympathy with cases where a woman was tormented and bullied and abused with years to the point that she would snap and kill him.
I think no woman in that situation should be imprisoned. They suffered enough cruel degrading treatment during their marriages.

Equally a man on that situation?

Muahahaha · 17-01-2021 1:34pm

Cona wrote: »

Ya...the point I was making was that the guards would have to of exhausted other areas for her going missing before spending €€€ on a huge dig operation. That leads me to believe the is zero CCTV evidence etc of her leaving on bus/taxi/car etc. Personally I think the guards suspect the worst but have very little evidence.

Its a really bizarre feature of this case that despite them living in Youghal town centre there is no CCTV of her movements after she is supposed to have left the house. It was 4 days before Richard reported her missing but AFAIK most businesses keep their CCTV recordings for about a month before they record over it. It definitely seems strange that no CCTV footage of her seems to exist, if it did Gardai would be including it as part of their appeals to the public.

tara73 · 17-01-2021 6:48pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

Its a really bizarre feature of this case that despite them living in Youghal town centre there is no CCTV of her movements after she is supposed to have left the house. It was 4 days before Richard reported her missing but AFAIK most businesses keep their CCTV recordings for about a month before they record over it. It definitely seems strange that no CCTV footage of her seems to exist, if it did Gardai would be including it as part of their appeals to the public.

thinking the same. there's so much strangenes in this case regarding behaviour of AGS. Starting with, according to Richard, searching the house without his permission. Who knows if this is true, but they should defo have searched the house. Examining the boot of his car after 6 month when he was about to sell it. As you said, obviously no single CCTV footage secured. There might be an explanation for all this, but never heard any. Did they really just considered her disappearance as suspicious after 6 month of her missing without any trace? Mindboggling.

gozunda · 17-01-2021 7:04pm

tara73 wrote: »

thinking the same. there's so much strangenes in this case regarding behaviour of AGS. Starting with, according to Richard, searching the house without his permission. Who knows if this is true, but they should defo have searched the house. Examining the boot of his car after 6 month when he was about to sell it. As you said, obviously no single CCTV footage secured. There might be an explanation for all this, but never heard any. Did they really just considered her disappearance as suspicious after 6 month of her missing without any trace? Mindboggling.

I think we can take a lot of what was said in various interviews fairly lightly tbf.

From various AGS reports it would appear the house was searched early on. With the investigation from that time and which is still ongoing. . I believe the issue of cctv coverage came up previously. Afaik the adjoining credit union was reported to have a cctv camera but I believe it may not have been working at the time of Tina's disappearance.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/no-cctv-on-possible-route-of-missing-wife-satchwell-9l7tr0n6f

Muahahaha · 17-01-2021 9:58pm

You would still have thought though that if she was on foot as claimed there is no way she could have left the town of Youghal without being picked up on CCTV somewhere. To me either the Gardai did not secure this CCTV in time before it got recorded over or else the claim she left on foot is not true.

Day Lewin · 17-01-2021 10:06pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

You would still have thought though that if she was on foot as claimed there is no way she could have left the town of Youghal without being picked up on CCTV somewhere. To me either the Gardai did not secure this CCTV in time before it got recorded over or else the claim she left on foot is not true.

But another possibility is that she was taken away by some person or persons unknown. Perhaps someone called to the house while Mr Satchwell was out, and Tina was overpowered in a struggle, and dragged away. So she left in someone's car and that's why she was never seen!

PS Just one, absolutely speculative theory to possibly explain that apparent "disappearance"

JeffKenna · 17-01-2021 10:10pm

Day Lewin wrote: »

But another possibility is that she was taken away by some person or persons unknown. Perhaps someone called to the house while Mr Satchwell was out, and Tina was overpowered in a struggle, and dragged away. So she left in someone's car and that's why she was never seen!

PS Just one, absolutely speculative theory to possibly explain that apparent "disappearance"

With no signs of a struggle in the house? That doesn't even classify as speculative.

foxyladyxx · 17-01-2021 10:26pm

JeffKenna wrote: »

With no signs of a struggle in the house? That doesn't even classify as speculative.

And no one saw or heard anything? .....................next!

Tina Satchwell *Mod note in op*

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Tina Satchwell Mod note in op