DB fare increase

Busman Paddy Lasty · 04-12-2018 8:47pm

Devnull's idea of tagging-off to get the short fare is a very nice idea, I like it, but I suspect it won't be implemented that way, probably will need to do driver interaction to get the short fare unfortunately.

Tagging-off would require an extra tag-off validator at the rear doors and risks people tagging-off early to get the short fare.[/quote]

Rear door tagging off combined with front entry only is an excellent system any time I've used it, very little dwell time. Albeit stage based fare and all vehicles designed for that system.

Would be delighted with quicker stop times over here if it could work with future flat/90min fare.

bk · 04-12-2018 9:01pm

Busman Paddy Lasty wrote: »

Rear door tagging off combined with front entry only is an excellent system any time I've used it, very little dwell time. Albeit stage based fare and all vehicles designed for that system.

Would be delighted with quicker stop times over here if it could work with future flat/90min fare.

I'd agree, it works very well in Amsterdam where I experienced it. Very fast and even works inconjunction with tram and Metro. You pay per km travelled, very fair IMO.

Needing to buy extra validators for the middle door and possibly people sneaking an early tag-off are the only downsides IMO. But might be worth it.

So here is my preference of ticketing systems in order of preference:
1) Luas/German model. 3 to 4 doors, entry/exit through any door, no driver interaction ticketing, lots of ticket inspectors
2) Tag-on front door, tag-off middle door, pay per km (e.g. Amsterdam)
3) London Bus flat fare of €1.70/1.80 + higher subsidy, no tag-off.
4) NTA proposed system, tag-off for short fare at middle door, otherwise 90 minute fare.
5) NTA proposed model, short fare via driver, 90 minutes fare via tag-on at right hand validator.

Unfortunately I suspect we will end up with the worst option. Though it is still a lot better then the current model. Though definitely taking the "safe", least effort, option.

devnull · 04-12-2018 9:16pm

bk wrote: »

I know you could use the same hardware. But I disagree with forcing them through the front door. It defeats the whole purpose of having the middle door, trying to improve passenger flow and would just slow things down and cause confusion IMO.

I agree that is a particular downside but on the flip-side if you allowed people to tag off without any supervision whatsoever you'll be letting yourself in for a lot of fare evasion - if people do conditional leap validation on the DART (IE, never tag on or off unless challenged at barrier when leaving station by staff and then use non tagged on Leap to work the gates and take a €4.70 hit rather than a fine) they will tag off early on the bus. It would make it even easier to evade than it is on the bus now.

Perhaps go all in on the London Bus model. €1.70 across the board flat fare + higher subsidy, tag-on by the driver, just exit via middle door.

But how high would that subsidy have to be. You can bet your life that an operator would be pushing for as much as possible and saying you'll cover the subsidy from a sudden, massive revenue affecting exercise, whatever it costs, is almost like offering a blank cheque at the end of the day.

Of course my ideal would be triple door buses, entry/exit through any door, zero driver interaction with lots of ticket inspectors. The Luas/European model. But that would require radical change. New fleet of buses etc. Probably cheaper just to subsidise the London Bus model.

Realistically any good system that doesn't involve a massively increased presence of revenue inspection will have to be flat fare and any multiple fare system that relies completely on honor and is fully efficient relies on a vastly souped up revenue protection system with bigger punishments and patrols that cover all routes, all times of day and 7 days per week.

Any other system is going to have to have a trade-off somewhere, whether that is efficiency, fare evasion, greater driver interaction or increased costs.

bk · 04-12-2018 10:24pm

devnull wrote: »

I agree that is a particular downside but on the flip-side if you allowed people to tag off without any supervision whatsoever you'll be letting yourself in for a lot of fare evasion - if people do conditional leap validation on the DART (IE, never tag on or off unless challenged at barrier when leaving station by staff and then use non tagged on Leap to work the gates and take a €4.70 hit rather than a fine) they will tag off early on the bus. It would make it even easier to evade than it is on the bus now.

Again, the question would be how is it done in the likes of Amsterdam with tag-off systems. Surely they have solved this issue somehow?

Perhaps when a person tags off, a loud bing is heard in the driver cab and the driver can watch CCTV from the middle door to check the person actually exits.

You could also have the middle door tag-off validator emit a loud noise, so everyone around knows you have tagged off and would know you are cheating if you didn't exit. Perhaps that would be enough social pressure to stop all but the most brazen people from trying it.

If the gap between the short fare and the 90 minute is less then €1, how much fare would you really be losing anyway? I wouldn't expect it would be much more then is already lost to people brazingly asking the driver for a short and then travelling far. We all know this is happening anyway.

At least this way minimises the dwell time and impact to passengers. This should be what the priority is, I think we over focus on the odd folks that are going to cheat either way.

Also with this model, you could force people to tag-on by the drivers machine like in London, which might help reduce adults using child leap cards and cards not working. So you might actually reduce that fraud. At least you'd be getting a €1.55 short, rather then a €1 child fare from a cheating adult, so 55cent more.

Actually now that I think of it, this model is probably the best within the context of current fare levels, subsidies and available vehicles.

Having thought more about this, after discussing it with you. I strongly feel this is the best way to do it. I hadn't thought of the tag-off for short fare.

So how it would ideally work:

- Tag-on by the driver at front door. 90 minute fare charged
- Exit by middle door for 90 minute fare
- Try tag-off at middle door if you think it might be a short fare.

I think that system would actually work quite well. Of course not perfect, but the best option with the buses we have. Most people wouldn't tag-off anyway. Cheaters going to cheat anyway, no different to today. Minimises dwell time, pretty simple system. I like it.

devnull wrote: »

But how high would that subsidy have to be. You can bet your life that an operator would be pushing for as much as possible and saying you'll cover the subsidy from a sudden, massive revenue affecting exercise, whatever it costs, is almost like offering a blank cheque at the end of the day.

I'd assume it would be an increase to the same levels (per bus) that London gives * I wouldn't say it would be a blank cheque, you'd still have tendering etc.

* In case it wasn't obvious, the reason why I mentioned €1.70 as the flat fare, is because the 60 minute flat fare on London Bus is £1.50 which is about €1.63, should obviously it is possible, if we were willing to pay for it.

It should be relatively easy to figure out based on current fare data, what the increase in subsidy would be needed for this level of reduction in fare. It would require more subsidy, but certainly wouldn't be a free for all.

devnull wrote: »

Realistically any good system that doesn't involve a massively increased presence of revenue inspection will have to be flat fare and any multiple fare system that relies completely on honor and is fully efficient relies on a vastly souped up revenue protection system with bigger punishments and patrols that cover all routes, all times of day and 7 days per week.

Any other system is going to have to have a trade-off somewhere, whether that is efficiency, fare evasion, greater driver interaction or increased costs.

Of course, each of the systems I listed would have pros and cons and trade-offs in terms of increased costs, but improved dwell times too.

- Luas/European model. Cost 400 million for new fleet of 3/4 door buses + big increase in inspectors (though maybe self financing with high enough fines).

Pro: Big improvement in dwell times and reduction in bus journey times. More efficient use of buses (empty space down the back that often goes unused).

- Tag-on/tag-off Amsterdam model.

Pro: Could be done with mostly our current fleet. Good dwell times, not as good as above, but much better then current. Pretty fair in terms of you pay per distance, more you travel more you pay.

Cons: Cost of 1000 extra middle door validators. Some fair evasion, but I don't think it would be much different then the current cheats.

- London Bus model, €1.70 flat fare

Pro: Could be easily done with current fleet. No need for extra validators. Eliminates cheating from early tagging off. Might reduce cheating with child cards if you have to tag-on next to the driver. Very simple to understand and use. Low price would attract lots of new users.

Con: Need to increase subsidy to match lost fares.

- Tag-on by driver for 90 minute, tag-off at middle door for rear

Pro: Could be done with current fleet. Good dwell times, not as good as Luas model, but much better then current and even possibly better then Amsterdam model.

Cons: Cost of 1000 extra middle door validators. Some fair evasion, but I don't think it would be much different then the current cheats. Possibly unfair that people travelling relatively short distance are paying as much as long distance.

- Tag-on by driver for 90 minute, tag-off at front door for short

Pro: Could be done with current fleet. Better dwell times then current. No extra validators needed. Harder to do early tag-off

Cons: People trying to squeeze out the front door to tag-off, getting in the way of people getting on. I don't think dwell times would be reduced as much as the above approaches with middle door use.

BTW this model, probably best to get people to tag-on by the driver, right hand validator only tag-off. A reverse of the current setup.

- Tag-on at right hand side for 90 minute ticket, interact with driver for short.

Pro: Could be done with current fleet. Better dwell times then current. No extra validators needed. Very similar to current model, so easy to understand.

Cons: Slower then tagging off at middle door. People can still lie to drivers and ask for short. Easier for people with child cards to sneak by on the right hand validator.

So yeah, all different pros and cons and different costs. Do you spend more money on new buses, or more ticket checkers, or more validators or more subsidy or more possible far evasion or longer dwell times.

They all have costs. I can't say which is better cost. It would be something a financial person would need to model knowing the fare levels, cost of new buses/validators, fare evasion levels, etc.

Having said that, any of these options is better then the current mess.

I quite like the middle door tag-off for short or Amsterdam given our current fleet.

However I suspect we will just get the driver interaction one for a few years.

I suspect that drivers will still be taking cash fares for a few years until it is phased out, so what they will do is have them also take the short fare. Then increase the short fare each year over say 5 years until it matches the 90 minute fare. Then also get rid of cash at the same time completely (with support for contactless payments already well in place) and perhaps move to a 90 minute flat fare from the drivers side.

That would likely to be the least costly and least troublesome transition option. If not necessarily the nicest for a few years as it happens.

Stephen15 · 04-12-2018 10:58pm

devnull wrote: »

I agree that is a particular downside but on the flip-side if you allowed people to tag off without any supervision whatsoever you'll be letting yourself in for a lot of fare evasion - if people do conditional leap validation on the DART (IE, never tag on or off unless challenged at barrier when leaving station by staff and then use non tagged on Leap to work the gates and take a €4.70 hit rather than a fine) they will tag off early on the bus. It would make it even easier to evade than it is on the bus now.

Tbh any almost every system bar a flat fare with drivers making sure people pay it is open to abuse even that is if you include fraudulent passes etc. Even if you have tag off by the driver that is open abuse especially on busy buses when people are standing up as far as the white line it also creates a safety risk as the drivers attention could be taken away from the road unless the system is disabled while the bus is motion.

But how high would that subsidy have to be. You can bet your life that an operator would be pushing for as much as possible and saying you'll cover the subsidy from a sudden, massive revenue affecting exercise, whatever it costs, is almost like offering a blank cheque at the end of the day.

I think that the passenger expierence should come before the revenue of an operator.

Qrt · 04-12-2018 11:03pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

I think that the passenger expierence should come before the revenue of an operator.

Tbh I can't see them being tremendously worried about fare revenues considering we have two intensively used tram lines which are completely open and whose ticket inspectors have no real method of verifying identities. I've often seen people throw their fine slip away once they get off the tram.

devnull · 04-12-2018 11:10pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

I think that the passenger expierence should come before the revenue of an operator.

Dublin Bus is a company that is dependent on fare revenue.

Saying that you just forget about how it is financed, which effects if they are able to pay staff or the costs of actually running the bus service, will not end well and no directors of a company would find it acceptable to operate in an environment.

No company will sign up for anything in a big bang change that has such level of risk to their ability to trade in a financially sensible manner unless there are very significant safeguards put in place to ensure that the company does not find itself in financial difficulty or the potential of being unable to meet it's obligation.

And honestly, the NTA are not simply going to say they'll cover everything either, because that essentially is saying to DB be as inefficient as you like, we'll hand over however much you want because its just asking for trouble.

In an ideal world nobody would be depending on revenue and were all just getting a fixed fee as all the contracts would be competitively tendered - but that's not going to happen in Dublin for the foreseeable future and like it or not, operators who are dependent on farebox revenue are not going to accept a high level of revenue risk.

I agree that we need to place the convenience of passengers first, but you can't just forget the financial side of things, if you do you may end up in a position where you are unable to meet your obligations or unable to pay your staff or start asking them to take massive cuts for instance.

devnull · 04-12-2018 11:15pm

Qrt wrote: »

Tbh I can't see them being tremendously worried about fare revenues considering we have two intensively used tram lines which are completely open and whose ticket inspectors have no real method of verifying identities. I've often seen people throw their fine slip away once they get off the tram.

The LUAS model is completely different to that of Dublin Bus though, Dublin Bus are significantly dependent on passenger revenue from fares whereas Go-Ahead and Transdev are not.

Spanish Eyes · 04-12-2018 11:16pm

Flat fee of €2.50 is on the way.

Good. The majority of short journey takers have FTP or may have to suck it up. Such is life.

Spanish Eyes · 04-12-2018 11:20pm

In fairness, why would DB defer to those on a short journey anymore now, most of them are on FTP anyway.

Will love the day that cash fares and interraction with driver will be gone.

I'd say the driver will agree too!

devnull · 04-12-2018 11:24pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

In fairness, why would DB defer to those on a short journey anymore now, most of them are on FTP anyway.

Will love the day that cash fares and interraction with driver will be gone.

I'd say the driver will agree too!

Unfortunately those who are paying the short journeys would tend to be the kind of people who would turn up at meetings organised by some of our left leaning politicians and would be holding placards and you can be sure that the local politicians will be making a scene about how the vulnerable are facing a stealth increase to their bus fares.

Also 3 stages isn't necessarily a very short journey, for most routes yes but for some routes it can be a few km, which isn't going to be possible for everyone to walk.

Stephen15 · 04-12-2018 11:35pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

In fairness, why would DB defer to those on a short journey anymore now, most of them are on FTP anyway.

Will love the day that cash fares and interraction with driver will be gone.

I'd say the driver will agree too!

It's not really that those journies should be deterred it's more so that a simpler easy to enforce fare structure is preferable to one which is open to abuse and increases dwell times for other passengers.

Change dosen't happen overnight we will probably have a short distance fare and flat fare for everthing else in two or three years time aswell as cash payments being done away with for once and for all. The short distance fare could then be scrapped fairly swiftly unceremoniously in a similar to the way city centre fare was scrapped.

bk · 04-12-2018 11:51pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

Change dosen't happen overnight we will probably have a short distance fare and flat fare for everthing else in two or three years time aswell as cash payments being done away with for once and for all. The short distance fare could then be scrapped fairly swiftly unceremoniously in a similar to the way city centre fare was scrapped.

Yep, that is how it will likely go. It isn't ideal, I do feel this is all happening too slow, but that is the way things work here.

- Two fares introduced next year, short fare and 90 minute.
- Short fare from the driver, 90 minute for most people from the right hand validator.
- Introduce contactless payments in the next year or two.
- Once contactless introduced, start increasing cash fares each year to push it away.
- Cash removed completely within 5 years.
- Over that 5 years period, increases the short by 10 cent each year until in 5 years or so it is the same as the 90 minute and then get rid of it.
- Finally no cash fares and a flat fare. All done next to the driver so that s/he can keep an eye on it.

Stephen15 · 04-12-2018 11:57pm

devnull wrote: »

Unfortunately those who are paying the short journeys would tend to be the kind of people who would turn up at meetings organised by some of our left leaning politicians and would be holding placards and you can be sure that the local politicians will be making a scene about how the vulnerable are facing a stealth increase to their bus fares.

Also 3 stages isn't necessarily a very short journey, for most routes yes but for some routes it can be a few km, which isn't going to be possible for everyone to walk.

It's something that could be done overnight but it's not something which could be done after a new fare system is introduced a few years later when the huffing and puffing has blown over. There's been a few small changes to the fare system recently all of which have managed to get the go ahead such as the removal of change tickets and the very recent fare revison.

All it will take is now is one more year for the €2.25 to be increased by another 10 cent and the €2.50 fare to be reduced by another 10 cent and then they more or less meet in the middle so a flat fare for anything more than 3 stages which will likely work out at around the €2.40 mark.

I see three main steps to the removal of driver interaction on Dublin buses.

1. Introduction of a flat fare for above 3 stages which is likely to come this time next year with the next fare revision

2. Removal of cash if you go by the NTA's timeline that will likely be late 2020 or early 21

3. Removal of the under 3 stage fare which would likely be a year after the removal of cash so late 2021 or early 22.

howiya · 05-12-2018 12:02am

bk wrote: »

Yep, that is how it will likely go. It isn't ideal, I do feel this is all happening too slow, but that is the way things work here.

- Two fares introduced next year, short fare and 90 minute.
- Short fare from the driver, 90 minute for most people from the right hand validator.
- Introduce contactless payments in the next year or two.
- Once contactless introduced, start increasing cash fares each year to push it away.
- Cash removed completely within 5 years.
- Over that 5 years period, increases the short by 10 cent each year until in 5 years or so it is the same as the 90 minute and then get rid of it.
- Finally no cash fares and a flat fare. All done next to the driver so that s/he can keep an eye on it.

In addition to that they should be looking to discourage Leap card usage once they start accepting contactless payments. The costs of Leap are increasing every year and participating transport operators who have to pay for Leap could surely put this money to better use.

Stephen15 · 05-12-2018 12:07am

howiya wrote: »

In addition to that they should be looking to discourage Leap card usage once they start accepting contactless payments. The costs of Leap are increasing every year and participating transport operators who have to pay for Leap could surely put this money to better use.

I think we'll focus on removing cash and driver interaction before we start thinking about the removal of Leap. That's more goes with the whole cashless society argument those who prefer to pay by card can pay by contactless and those who prefer to pay by cash can do so by paying by Leap.

bk · 05-12-2018 12:11am

howiya wrote: »

In addition to that they should be looking to discourage Leap card usage once they start accepting contactless payments. The costs of Leap are increasing every year and participating transport operators who have to pay for Leap could surely put this money to better use.

Contactless is Leap.

The physical Leap card is just the tip of the iceberg, most of the cost would be all the infrastructure underneath. Ticket machines, wifi/3G, back office account systems, servers, websites, etc.

You'd still need all that even with contactless payments. Contactless cards would simply act as a sort of virtual leap card. When you tag-on with a contact-less card, you wouldn't be immediately charged, after all things like daily and weekly capping still get worked out by the Leap accounting systems, etc.

And of course you'd still need Leap cards for child/student cards, Free Travel Cards, Monthly/Annual taxsaver cards, etc.

howiya · 05-12-2018 12:11am

Stephen15 wrote: »

I think we'll focus on removing cash and driver interaction before we start thinking about the removal of Leap. That's more goes with the whole cashless society argument those who prefer to pay by card can pay by contactless and those who prefer to pay by cash can do so by paying by Leap.

The post I quoted already mentioned cash being removed. I started my post with in addition... :rolleyes:

vrusinov · 05-12-2018 12:16am

Removal of leap or leap-like cards is unrealistic. There are many people who can't use contactless: besides the members of tinfoil society there are tourists, kids, customers of less sophisticated banks, etc.

Stephen15 · 05-12-2018 12:22am

howiya wrote: »

The post I quoted already mentioned cash being removed. I started my post with in addition... :rolleyes:

Yes but Leap Cards can be topped up using cash. It's basically moving the point of cash sale from the bus to a spar or centra shop. Cashless buses in many cities across Europe long in many cases long pre-date the advent of contactless cards and NFC payments they are not exactly a new phenomenon in many cities on the continent.

In a lot of cities it used to work where you went into a newsagent and bought a ticket usually valid for 90 mins across buses, trams, metro and suburban rail and got on the bus or tram and stamped in the validator. Many of these types of system have been done away with in favour of smart cards aswell as contactless but some do still exist.

howiya · 05-12-2018 12:25am

bk wrote: »

Contactless is Leap.

The physical Leap card is just the tip of the iceberg, most of the cost would be all the infrastructure underneath. Ticket machines, wifi/3G, back office account systems, servers, websites, etc.

You'd still need all that even with contactless payments. Contactless cards would simply act as a sort of virtual leap card. When you tag-on with a contact-less card, you wouldn't be immediately charged, after all things like daily and weekly capping still get worked out by the Leap accounting systems, etc.

And of course you'd still need Leap cards for child/student cards, Free Travel Cards, Monthly/Annual taxsaver cards, etc.

There's 15-20% cost savings available to the NTA as a result of increasing usage of an open loop payment card versus a closed loop card such as Leap. As stated by the NTA they are planning on introducing the technology to support contactless so they should go after the savings once they do.

In 2015 Leap cost operators €7.01m. In 2017 it cost transport operators €8.45m.

Money that could be better spent rather than lining payzone's pockets

Qrt · 05-12-2018 1:12am

devnull wrote: »

UAlso 3 stages isn't necessarily a very short journey, for most routes yes but for some routes it can be a few km, which isn't going to be possible for everyone to walk.

Exactly, it's a three stage journey for me to the bank, but it's a 35 minute walk...

the_syco · 05-12-2018 1:42am

As the Leap card allows max weekly cost, can't see people wanting it gone.

TBH, once a flat fare is introduced, most people will just move to Leap.

In Toronto, flat fare is CAD$3.25, but said flat fare can be used in one direction with bus/subway/streetcar (but not trains). It'd be like being able to use your bus ticket to hop on the LUAS, and then another bus, if all done within 2 hours.

Busman Paddy Lasty · 05-12-2018 7:35am

howiya wrote: »

There's 15-20% cost savings available to the NTA as a result of increasing usage of an open loop payment card versus a closed loop card such as Leap. As stated by the NTA they are planning on introducing the technology to support contactless so they should go after the savings once they do.

In 2015 Leap cost operators €7.01m. In 2017 it cost transport operators €8.45m.

Money that could be better spent rather than lining payzone's pockets

Tap payment with a credit card would be very convenient. Could it support weekly capping etc and be feasible to operate alongside Leap for a period however?

Possibly no incentive for the regular customer to switch from an auto top-up Leap either.

cdaly_ · 05-12-2018 10:48am

Stephen15 wrote: »

People should encouraged to take trips by sustainable methods which includes walking and cycling aswell as public transport. I find in Ireland there is a bit of pheonomenon of driving or taking the bus for trip which can easily be done on foot.

bk wrote: »

What folks are calling a short fare here, is basically the equivalent of a 10 minute walk.

Agreed but nobody walks anymore.

vrusinov · 05-12-2018 11:53am

Busman Paddy Lasty wrote: »

Tap payment with a credit card would be very convenient. Could it support weekly capping etc and be feasible to operate alongside Leap for a period however?

Capping/discounts/etc seems to work with contactless in London. I think they just record all the times you tap and charge the card at the end of the day.

bk · 05-12-2018 11:57am

howiya wrote: »

There's 15-20% cost savings available to the NTA as a result of increasing usage of an open loop payment card versus a closed loop card such as Leap. As stated by the NTA they are planning on introducing the technology to support contactless so they should go after the savings once they do.

In 2015 Leap cost operators €7.01m. In 2017 it cost transport operators €8.45m.

Money that could be better spent rather than lining payzone's pockets

Where did you get this from, source?

That doesn't gel with what I know about how Leap works or how Oyster card and contactless payments work in the UK.

Contactless payments in the UK aren't open loop. Normal contactless payments in shop require a live connection to the internet to check if you have enough balance to make the payment. Doing that would be too slow on the bus. So how they implemented it in the UK, is the following:

- When you tag-on with a contactless bank card, the ticket machine records the details of your bank card, but doesn't charge you straight away.
- Overnight the buses return to depot and the ticket machine uploads the data to the backend servers.
- The backend servers then work out what you actually owe, taking into account daily and weekly capping, etc. and then do the actual charge against your card.

It is quiet a different setup to traditional contactless charges work and it required Oyster to work closely with Visa/Mastercard, etc. to allow it to be used in this manner.

I would expect contactless payments to work the same way with Leap. Certainly the slides I've seen from the NTA about the project suggest that.

So I wouldn't expect much savings. Maybe a small amount from needing less physical Leap cards, but you would still need them for child cards, etc.

I'd expect we are talking about trivial savings here, which would easily be eaten up with the extra developer and server costs needed to setup this sort of virtual account functionality.

Busman Paddy Lasty wrote: »

Tap payment with a credit card would be very convenient. Could it support weekly capping etc and be feasible to operate alongside Leap for a period however?

Yes, contactless cards on London Bus support daily and weekly capping and 60 minute transfers. As long as you use the same contactless card each time.

It will definitely work alongside Leap cards, they are basically a version of the same technology. In London you can use either contactless cards or Oyster cards.

I also expect Leap cards will never go away. They will always be needed at least for child/student/free travel pass/monthly/annual cards.

loyatemu · 05-12-2018 12:23pm

how complicated is a Leap card reader - could they be bolted onto the bus poles? A solar-powered unit with a 4g uplink built in, shouldn't be too expensive. Then a tag-on tag-off system could be introduced without causing dwell time problems.

bk · 05-12-2018 12:27pm

loyatemu wrote: »

how complicated is a Leap card reader - could they be bolted onto the bus poles? A solar-powered unit with a 4g uplink built in, shouldn't be too expensive. Then a tag-on tag-off system could be introduced without causing dwell time problems.

There are something like 7000 bus poles. It is possible, but would likely cost far too much and would need lots of costly maintenance to deal with vandalism, etc.

Plus you would need a big increase in ticket inspectors.

If you wanted to go with this model, better to just do it like how they do it in Germany, Poland, etc. 3/4 doors on the bus, 3/4 validators on the bus, you get on any door and validate at the nearest validator on the bus.

AlekSmart · 05-12-2018 1:00pm

bk wrote: »

There are something like 7000 bus poles. It is possible, but would likely cost far too much and would need lots of costly maintenance to deal with vandalism, etc.

Plus you would need a big increase in ticket inspectors.

If you wanted to go with this model, better to just do it like how they do it in Germany, Poland, etc. 3/4 doors on the bus, 3/4 validators on the bus, you get on any door and validate at the nearest validator on the bus.

All of the NTA specified and owned post 2012 Double Door fleet,have been pre-wired for Smart Card Validators at each door (2 at the Centre Door).

This does not guarantee the the adoption of T-on/T-off,but it sure increases the probability of it.

It is included in the planning for the BusConnects programme,but as yet,has not been decided upon.

Ticketing Systems and Fares

• Without changing the fares structure, moving to cashless travel and investing in new ticketing systems, the full benefits of the BusConnects project wouldn’t be delivered
• Fares will be made simpler, and the financial penalty of taking a second bus for one journey removed.
•Will consider a single fare structure but more likely will move to a tag-on and tag-off arrangement
• This will remove the current major delay at bus stops where a high proportion of passengers still have to interact with the driver, even when paying by Leap Card
• BusConnects will incorporate the latest developments in accountbased ticketing technology, potentially allowing use of credit / debit cards or mobile devices as a convenient means of payment. This will also facilitate other transport payments such as parking facilities & bicycle hire.

Personally,I would favour the Single Flat-Fare option,as from an operational perspective it is the most suited for Dublins operations,however I am also aware that from an Economical and Accountancy perspective it carries a penalty.

Not for the first time in this domain,it will come down to How much ? and Who pays ?.

punisher5112 · 05-12-2018 1:36pm

2012 GT model came with poles at centre door to facilitate the machines but no others have since been equipped the same.

bk · 05-12-2018 2:23pm

Will consider a single fare structure but more likely will move to a tag-on and tag-off arrangement

That is a strange one, the moves being made by the NTA around ticketing would more indicate movement towards a flat fare (or short + flat).

I mean that is already what they did with the child fare this year, it is now flat.

And the way they merged the 4 to 7 stage fare and 8 to 13 stage fare into one fare and now are bringing the 4 to 13 and over 13 much closer would all indicate movement towards a fixed fare.

The most recent NTA fare determination had this to say:

The BusConnects programme for Dublin will see the transformation of Dublin’s bus system, to ensure journeys made by bus will be fast, reliable, punctual, convenient and affordable. Part of the BusConnects plan is revamping of the fare system to provide a simpler fare structure, allowing seamless movement between different transport services without financial penalty. To deliver on this part of the programme, a revised fare structure is required for public transport in the city which will support seamless movement between different public transport services and modes without a financial penalty. The fares determination, presented in this report, builds on last year’s determination by taking another step toward this new fare structure. For most services in the Dublin area, Bus Connects envisages a two fare system comprising a short distance fare
and a 90 minute fare. The 90 minute fare will cover any journeys taken within 90 minutes of the
first journey. These journeys can be taken on Dublin Bus, Luas, Go Ahead Dublin services, Iarnród Éireann DART services and zones 1 to 4 on Short Hop Zone commuter services, or any
combination of these services within the Dublin area. To achieve a balanced transition to this two fare structure,it is necessary to adjust a number of fares for Dublin Bus, Iarnród Éireann, GoAhead Dublin and Luas this year to enable a move towards this simpler fare structure over the coming years.

My bolding.

Unless by tag-off, they mean tag-off just for the short fare and otherwise a flat fare (tag-on) for the 90 minute.

It would seem silly to just have two fares, short and 90 and force both tag-on and tag-off for both.

Perhaps they are still undecided, though the moves over the last few years certainly seem to be going in this direction.

punisher5112 · 05-12-2018 2:34pm

Still 2 leap child fares...

School fare €0.80 from start to 7pm and €1 after that.

bk · 05-12-2018 2:45pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

Still 2 leap child fares...

School fare €0.80 from start to 7pm and €1 after that.

But they are both flat fares. They are just timed based.

I suppose when we talk about flat fare, we are talking based on distance and if you need driver interaction or not.

Previously there were two different child fares based on distance after 7pm. Now there is just one. A child doesn't have they interact with the driver, they just tag-on on the right hand validator and the machine automatically works out which fare to charge based on the time.

I mean you could do that too with the 90 minute ticket. It could be 2.40 if you start the journey during peak hours and say €2 if you started the journey off peak, to help encoruage people to use off peak instead of on peak. Lots of cities do that or similar.

punisher5112 · 05-12-2018 2:47pm

bk wrote: »

But they are both flat fares. They are just timed based.

I suppose when we talk about flat fare, we are talking based on distance and if you need driver interaction or not.

Previously there were two different child fares based on distance after 7pm. Now there is just one. A child doesn't have they interact with the driver, they just tag-on on the right hand validator and the machine automatically works out which fare to charge based on the time.

Correct but many still come to us even during the school time ...

Some do be quite confused.

It's so much better now though as they as you say can always scan at the door now.

Only issue now is adults using these now.

bk · 05-12-2018 2:54pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

Correct but many still come to us even during the school time ...

Some do be quite confused.

It's so much better now though as they as you say can always scan at the door now.

Only issue now is adults using these now.

Yep, like anything new, it takes people a while to catch on, but they will eventually. I'm sure some, if not most drivers will just tell them to use the door validator and eventually most will get use to it.

The adults using them :mad:

If they do move to a tag-off system, then hopefully they can get rid of the door validator and just have the one next to the driver like London and that might help somewhat with that. Though I'd expect it will be a few years before we get to that point.

Stephen15 · 05-12-2018 2:55pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

Correct but many still come to us even during the school time ...

Some do be quite confused.

It's so much better now though as they as you say can always scan at the door now.

Only issue now is adults using these now.

Also sometimes the right hand validator can at times be broken and everyone has to pay at driver although it dosen't seem to happen as much as it used to a few years ago. Happened me on a GAI bus there a few weeks ago.

punisher5112 · 05-12-2018 3:00pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

Also sometimes the right hand validator can at times be broken and everyone has to pay at driver although it dosen't seem to happen as much as it used to a few years ago. Happened me on a GAI bus there a few weeks ago.

I'm having a lot of failures of the actual driver machine lately, very rare the one beside the door and usually a reset by the button now fitted on the dash this helps.

The driver one fails a lot where in most cases a red LED shows and now the machines have a reset button on the side as you use to have to Indo clips and release from it's housing base.

New machines needed badly and this is something that was and is needed years ago.

I'm getting a lot more adults with the child cards but coming to the driver to select the adult buttons and pay but I am also getting the kids can I pay for 2 but not tell you its one adult and them and this I've got a few doing a lot and I've said it to them but they continue to test it.

AlekSmart · 05-12-2018 3:21pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

2012 GT model came with poles at centre door to facilitate the machines but no others have since been equipped the same.

The initial 2012 order were not specified with the wiring fitted,this was then rectified by Wrightbus in a retrofit programme.

All dual doored deliveries since then,have the wiring installed on assembly.

Tickityboo · 05-12-2018 5:21pm

bk wrote: »

There are something like 7000 bus poles. It is possible, but would likely cost far too much and would need lots of costly maintenance to deal with vandalism, etc.

Plus you would need a big increase in ticket inspectors.

If you wanted to go with this model, better to just do it like how they do it in Germany, Poland, etc. 3/4 doors on the bus, 3/4 validators on the bus, you get on any door and validate at the nearest validator on the bus.

It would be a lot more expensive to replace all the buses with 3 and 4 door buses.

Stephen15 · 05-12-2018 5:35pm

Tickityboo wrote: »

It would be a lot more expensive to replace all the buses with 3 and 4 door buses.

And also stops would have to redesigned to accommodate them

howiya · 05-12-2018 6:16pm

bk wrote: »

Where did you get this from, source?

That doesn't gel with what I know about how Leap works or how Oyster card and contactless payments work in the UK.

Contactless payments in the UK aren't open loop. Normal contactless payments in shop require a live connection to the internet to check if you have enough balance to make the payment. Doing that would be too slow on the bus. So how they implemented it in the UK, is the following:

- When you tag-on with a contactless bank card, the ticket machine records the details of your bank card, but doesn't charge you straight away.
- Overnight the buses return to depot and the ticket machine uploads the data to the backend servers.
- The backend servers then work out what you actually owe, taking into account daily and weekly capping, etc. and then do the actual charge against your card.

It is quiet a different setup to traditional contactless charges work and it required Oyster to work closely with Visa/Mastercard, etc. to allow it to be used in this manner.

I would expect contactless payments to work the same way with Leap. Certainly the slides I've seen from the NTA about the project suggest that.

So I wouldn't expect much savings. Maybe a small amount from needing less physical Leap cards, but you would still need them for child cards, etc.

I'd expect we are talking about trivial savings here, which would easily be eaten up with the extra developer and server costs needed to setup this sort of virtual account functionality.

Yes, contactless cards on London Bus support daily and weekly capping and 60 minute transfers. As long as you use the same contactless card each time.

It will definitely work alongside Leap cards, they are basically a version of the same technology. In London you can use either contactless cards or Oyster cards.

I also expect Leap cards will never go away. They will always be needed at least for child/student/free travel pass/monthly/annual cards.

Which part do you need a source for? Figures are from the NTAs annual financial statements

prinzeugen · 06-12-2018 1:20am

Stephen15 wrote: »

Yes but Leap Cards can be topped up using cash. It's basically moving the point of cash sale from the bus to a spar or centra shop. Cashless buses in many cities across Europe long in many cases long pre-date the advent of contactless cards and NFC payments they are not exactly a new phenomenon in many cities on the continent.

In a lot of cities it used to work where you went into a newsagent and bought a ticket usually valid for 90 mins across buses, trams, metro and suburban rail and got on the bus or tram and stamped in the validator. Many of these types of system have been done away with in favour of smart cards aswell as contactless but some do still exist.

Leap is double the work. Nothing "smart" about having to queue twice. I will never get one as I doubt I will need one but if they insist on going cashless then a book of single journey tickets should be made available.

Say 10 in a book and you could keep one or two handy should you need to use public transport but don't have a Leap card.

Bit like the old card tickets DB once sold in Spars etc.. But thats too much of an old fashioned idea as it is simple and does not involve "tech".

punisher5112 · 06-12-2018 1:31am

prinzeugen wrote: »

Leap is double the work. Nothing "smart" about having to queue twice. I will never get one as I doubt I will need one but if they insist on going cashless then a book of single journey tickets should be made available.

Say 10 in a book and you could keep one or two handy should you need to use public transport but don't have a Leap card.

Bit like the old card tickets DB once sold in Spars etc.. But thats too much of an old fashioned idea as it is simple and does not involve "tech".

They won't be going back in time I'm afraid....

Bray Head · 06-12-2018 10:46am

I have a Leap card with auto-top-up that I use about ten times a year.

It's still worth having one for convenience.

Qrt · 06-12-2018 11:00am

prinzeugen wrote: »

Leap is double the work. Nothing "smart" about having to queue twice. I will never get one as I doubt I will need one but if they insist on going cashless then a book of single journey tickets should be made available.

Say 10 in a book and you could keep one or two handy should you need to use public transport but don't have a Leap card.

Bit like the old card tickets DB once sold in Spars etc.. But thats too much of an old fashioned idea as it is simple and does not involve "tech".

You couldn’t just keep a leap card “handy”?

markpb · 06-12-2018 11:32am

howiya wrote: »

In 2015 Leap cost operators €7.01m. In 2017 it cost transport operators €8.45m. Money that could be better spent rather than lining payzone's pockets

I don’t think you understand how Leap works at all! The operating cost of Leap does not go to Payzone. It goes to DXC (previously HP Enterprise) who operate the back end software, maintain the website, staff the call centre, liaise with the NTA, provide the financial settlement and reconciliation and other stuff. There’s another contract for operating the taxsaver scheme, I presume the operators have to contribute to that too. There also an ongoing hardware replacement cost as well, I’m not sure if that’s included in the 8.45m you mentioned.

Payzone are only responsible for the retail sales and online card acceptance and if you think they earned almost 9m from doing that, I’d love to have some of what you’re smoking!

howiya wrote: »

There's 15-20% cost savings available to the NTA as a result of increasing usage of an open loop payment card versus a closed loop card such as Leap.

Where did you get those figures? They sound a little optimistic to me. When they move to EMV, there will still be a back office, still be a call centre, still be a retail channel, still be a website, still need staff to mange the finances and you can be sure the banks will continue to charge MSC on the card transactions. There will also be a financial risk for declined transactions or disputed transactions, someone will have to pay for that.

daheff · 06-12-2018 11:34am

prinzeugen wrote: »

I also believe that under EU law, its illegal to charge more for using a certain type of payment.

While you are probably correct, you'll find the the cash fare is the full fare, and the leap card is a 'discounted' fare to get around this.

markpb · 06-12-2018 11:44am

daheff wrote: »

While you are probably correct, you'll find the the cash fare is the full fare, and the leap card is a 'discounted' fare to get around this.

If that was the case, everyone would use that loophole to work around the law. I could be wrong but I doubt the people who draft EU laws are completely incompetent!

cdaly_ · 06-12-2018 2:10pm

markpb wrote: »

If that was the case, everyone would use that loophole to work around the law. I could be wrong but I doubt the people who draft EU laws are completely incompetent!

I'm pretty sure they do. You'll find most utilities offer discounts for paying by direct debit and for paperless billing. The direct debit 'discount' is most certainly payment method discrimination worked around...

DB fare increase

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