M50 - apalling gridlock

gflood · 29-11-2018 11:55am #1

Appalling Grid all this week on M50. Northbound today was back up to Sandyford. When I hear about upcoming "carbon tax" changes I wonder how much wasted fuel happens every morning with the Dublin commute due to crap infrastructure. Not to mention peoples time.

Until we improve situations like this carbon taxes should be postponed.

blastman · 29-11-2018 11:58am

Southbound traffic was backed up from J4 on the M1 to J12 on the M50, apparently. It has been a disaster area all week. I gave up a few weeks back and started taking the back roads again.

amcalester · 29-11-2018 11:58am

What improvements can you suggest?

Allinall · 29-11-2018 12:07pm

I thought the carbon tax was to incentivise people out of cars.

Maybe it needs to be introduced quicker, rather than delayed.

Xterminator · 29-11-2018 12:10pm

Until we improve situations like this carbon taxes should be postponed.

Climate change isn't pausing for traffic. Ireland is nowhere nears its commitments to cut emissions. under current agreements that means Ireland will be required to either pay fines or purchase carbon credits from countries who have exceeded their emission reduction targets.

And that money would be tax payers money, and you would still have to pay it! This isnt an easy fix.

Should Ireland abandon all its international commitments to reduce carbon emissions until the m50 is expanded or the mythical second ring road constructed? Maybe we should follow Donald Trump's lead and abandon climate change accords and just tell people its fake news and we don't believe the experts, not even our own ones? That way perhaps your children and future generations will pay but you might escape a couple of euros on your petrol.

Del2005 · 29-11-2018 12:15pm

Allinall wrote: »

I thought the carbon tax was to incentivise people out of cars.

Maybe it needs to be introduced quicker, rather than delayed.

The carbon tax is to increase taxes and that's all. Where they spend the money makes no difference, like motor tax.

Also if people stop driving ICE for EV the congestion on the roads will be the same, your lungs will be better but that's about it.

realdanbreen · 29-11-2018 12:15pm

amcalester wrote: »

What improvements can you suggest?

No idea what improvements can be made but the powers that be don't even have a proposal or intention to sort out this problem which can only get worse.
It's like the health or housing problems, no plan, no proposal. Even if they came out and said it would cost 10 billion and take 10 years to solve at least that would be a start.

....... · 29-11-2018 12:20pm

The M50 is not fit for purpose - end of.

Morning rush hour seems to go from 6am til 10am and evening from 3pm til 7pm. Ive even been caught gridlocked on it at 8pm on a Sunday evening recently.

It cannot even be used as a proper motorway as there is far too much traffic on it. All lanes are used as driving lanes during whats become 8 hours of rush hour in recent years.

Its simply not big enough to cater for the volume of traffic on it. Add in poorly designed entrance/exit ramps with nonsensical decisions about traffic flow in the areas surrounding those exit ramps and its a disaster. What I mean by that is best illustrated by example. Recently some fool decided the North bound exit ramp at Firhouse should now be stop/go traffic light controlled rather than freeflow, the result is queues of traffic every evening that end up blocking the driving lane on the M50 before that exit. Another disasterous decision has been the appallingly bad redesign of the road system in Knocklyon leading to a queue of traffic that cant exit the M50 in a timely manner anymore both North and South so causes more congestion.

There is no joined up thinking for infrastructure in this country, decisions are made with no regard as to the effects on traffic flow up or downstream and roads are built like a firefighting exercise rather than a long term plan.

Add in the propensity for councils to grant planning for thousands of houses with no thought to the extra traffic they will bring and you get what we have - a crappy so called motorway.

Why not build another M50 on top of the M50? Remove the meridian and allow all lower deck traffic to travel South and all upper deck to travel North. In a stroke you would more than double the capacity of the road without having to use up more land for it. Elevated highways work fine in other countries.

tomplate · 29-11-2018 12:23pm

You'd have to be mad to be driving on it every day

sweetie · 29-11-2018 12:25pm

....... wrote:

Why not build another M50 on top of the M50? Remove the meridian and allow all lower deck traffic to travel South and all upper deck to travel North. In a stroke you would more than double the capacity of the road without having to use up more land for it. Elevated highways work fine in other countries.

Jesus, we can't be destroying the lovely views by building upwards!

CatInABox · 29-11-2018 12:25pm

A new ring road (or indeed, any road in general) won't sort this out, it'll merely move the problem elsewhere. We need to massively improve public transport so that the majority of people currently using cars swap onto it.

Metrolink will have a dramatic effect in traffic reduction on the M1 and north sections of the M50, while the BusConnects Core Corridors project will reduce traffic all over the city. They really need to be fast tracked through, and once they're done, more PT transports should be lined up for the day that they're finished. These public consultations where every Tom, Dick, and Harry put their oar in, no matter how selfish, is incredibly frustrating.

Case in point is the rumbling from Noel Rock about making the Santry one way. A minor 5 minute inconvenience to a couple of hundred people, while massively benefiting thousands on a daily basis.

EDIT: I should note that I'm not anti-car at all, there's people out there that simply need to get in their car every day to go to work. What I'm anti is those car users that don't need to use their car. Move those people from the road and onto buses/trams/trains, and an awful lot of traffic problems will be significantly reduced. They're never going to be gone entirely, but much better than now is the aim.

realdanbreen · 29-11-2018 12:26pm

tomplate wrote: »

You'd have to be mad to be driving on it every day

And they keep locating new industries in the Dublin area and neglecting the rest of the country.

Triangle · 29-11-2018 12:28pm

gflood wrote: »

Appalling Grid all this week on M50. Northbound today was back up to Sandyford. When I hear about upcoming "carbon tax" changes I wonder how much wasted fuel happens every morning with the Dublin commute due to crap infrastructure. Not to mention peoples time.

Until we improve situations like this carbon taxes should be postponed.

The trouble with ring roads is it causes urban sprawl and is a short term solution to a long-term problem. The only real solution is for efficient public transport imo.

CatInABox · 29-11-2018 12:29pm

sweetie wrote: »

Jesus, we can't be destroying the lovely views by building upwards!

An Taisce would be all over it.

I can imagine the story on the Irish Times now:
"An extra story on the M50 would ruin the Victorian Vista from the south end of O'Connell St", said the An Taisce spokesperson, while cleaning his monocle.

gflood · 29-11-2018 12:30pm

Suggested improvements :

Car pool lanes.
Widen motorways.
Fix planning so it doesn't take 20 years to build a road.
I get a rebate on my fuel due to poor infrastructure.
Massive tax incentives/cheap ticket prices for public transport especially at peak times, not how it is now where off-peak is cheaper.
if an incident happens on the road its closed off so no reason for rubberneckers to hold everyone up. Seriously ... is changing a tyre that interesting?

Personally, I dont have a choice but to use my car especially in Winter. Its too far to train and multiple of Luas, buses. Its doable but it would be very long mornings and evenings.

Mrs OBumble · 29-11-2018 12:34pm

If you build more roads, you get more traffic.

We need to incentive employers to hire people who live locally, wherever possible, to remove the crazy commutes.

RayCun · 29-11-2018 12:35pm

realdanbreen wrote: »

And they keep locating new industries in the Dublin area and neglecting the rest of the country.

"they"

facehugger99 · 29-11-2018 12:37pm

If you're on the M50 complaining that there are too many other people on the M50, you are part of the problem that you are complaining about.

29-11-2018 12:37pm

Triangle wrote: »

The trouble with ring roads is it causes urban sprawl and is a short term solution to a long-term problem. The only real solution is for efficient public transport imo.

Pretty much, but no matter how any times this is said, and articles supporting it posted, people just won't believe it.

Personally I say build a skyway luas over it, it would be crap, but it's the type of big nonsense project planners love instead of doing simple things right.

mickoneill31 · 29-11-2018 12:39pm

amcalester wrote: »

What improvements can you suggest?

How about we build the Metro.

I live in Swords. I won't work anywhere that requires me to travel on the M50 but there are many people who don't have a choice. I get the Swords Express in from Swords every morning and it's creaking. This morning 1 bus rolled past full, another filled up from my queue before I got on it. I got on the third.

If I have to listen to Colm McCarthy on RTE say that it takes 20 mins to get to the airport from the city centre one more time I'll throw my radio out the window. Frequently it takes 20 minutes to just get down the quays. And the metro isn't just for Dublin Airport. If they ever get that built I could expand my radius of work down to Sandyford. I'm sure it'd remove several hundred / thousand of trips from the M50 daily.

tomplate · 29-11-2018 12:39pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

If you build more roads, you get more traffic.

We need to incentive employers to hire people who live locally, wherever possible, to remove the crazy commutes.

Lol

Nermal · 29-11-2018 12:39pm

amcalester wrote: »

What improvements can you suggest?

Spend Dublin's property tax on public transport in Dublin, not roads in Leitrim.

Withdraw from climate agreements so we don't pay fines.

loyatemu · 29-11-2018 12:39pm

gflood wrote: »

Suggested improvements :
Car pool lanes.

Widen motorways.

I get a rebate on my fuel due to poor infrastructure.

these 3 would just encourage more people to drive (unless by "I get a rebate" you mean just you)

magicbastarder · 29-11-2018 12:56pm

gflood wrote: »

[*]Massive tax incentives/cheap ticket prices for public transport especially at peak times, not how it is now where off-peak is cheaper.

it's not necessarily that we need cheaper PT, it's that we need more PT.
and better cycling facilities.

facehugger99 · 29-11-2018 12:57pm

mickoneill31 wrote: »

How about we build the Metro.

A colossally expensive project that will have a near negligible impact on traffic volumes

mickoneill31 wrote: »

I live in Swords.

That figures.

tomplate · 29-11-2018 1:01pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

it's not necessarily that we need cheaper PT, it's that we need more PT.
and better cycling facilities.

It's so true what you're saying

It's ingrained into politicians to solve traffic problems with roads

And we do it badly here

mickoneill31 · 29-11-2018 1:06pm

facehugger99 wrote: »

A colossally expensive project that will have a near negligible impact on traffic volumes

That figures.

I said I'm in Swords so people would know that I'm just talking about my commute.

Obviously you've done some analysis yourself.

So we're getting your wisdom from
A: you are knowledgeable in this area
B: you can see the queues of traffic and buses in Swords every day.
C: your ass.

Just wondering which one it is.

Do you have any suggestions yourself or do you just like to moan?

amcalester · 29-11-2018 1:14pm

mickoneill31 wrote: »

How about we build the Metro.

Oh, I agree.

I was just curious if the OP's suggestion would be improved public transport or more roads.

I find that a lot of the people who complain about traffic don't include themselves in that complaint. "I'm not the problem, it's the other people"

I use the M50 daily, so am part of the problem.

Macy0161 · 29-11-2018 1:14pm

mickoneill31 wrote: »

I live in Swords. I won't work anywhere that requires me to travel on the M50 but there are many people who don't have a choice. I get the Swords Express in from Swords every morning and it's creaking. This morning 1 bus rolled past full, another filled up from my queue before I got on it. I got on the third.

Capacity is an issue on many routes, that on the face of it are well served by public transport.

I'm on the N11 corridor in North Wicklow. There's a suitable BE bus route, if I could...

Park and ride (zero options, bar roadside)
Get on the bus (to guarantee that I'd have to be as early as driving)
Not get caught in the same traffic as the cars (to guarantee that I'd have to be as early as driving).

There is the Greystones park and ride for the dart, which is full around 8am these days, so again getting to the situation that it's nearly as early as driving. And a limited service.

I try to drive so far, and then bike commute. Again, there's a lack of park and ride options, poor cycling infrastructure, especially from Donnybrook in. But I don't have to leave as early as I do in the car.

On the cycle commute, I see packed bus stops and witness buses driving past stops several mornings a week. I wouldn't even consider my commute time to be peak.

While I support the principles of bus connects (albeit with reservations of it addressing cycling infrastructure), there's so much more that could be done within existing infrastructure with investment in buses, hard shoulders as bus lanes etc that could be done relatively quickly. But there's no will in the NTA or politics to do this.

facehugger99 · 29-11-2018 1:18pm

mickoneill31 wrote: »

So we're getting your wisdom from
A: you are knowledgeable in this area
B: you can see the queues of traffic and buses in Swords every day.
C: your ass.

Just wondering which one it is.

Do you have any suggestions yourself or do you just like to moan?

Wow, you're pretty touchy. I've worked for over 20 years in transportation engineering and associated planning - so, yeah it's an opinion but one based on some experience.

The solutions to Dublin's transportation problems are actually quite simple but unfortunately not terribly sexy or popular with the voters who tend to like big shiny (and expensive) solutions like Metros.

Congestion-charges combined with a complete expansion of the bus network -routes, frequencies, etc. would work.

The population densities are too low to be cost-effectively served by anything else.

If you price most motorists off the road and provide quality bus routes and decent cycling infrastructure you'd solve the problems within 2-4 years.

29-11-2018 1:36pm

CatInABox wrote: »

Case in point is the rumbling from Noel Rock about making the Santry one way. A minor 5 minute inconvenience to a couple of hundred people, while massively benefiting thousands on a daily basis.

I haven't seen anything about this, have you a link by any chance?

Tell me how · 29-11-2018 1:43pm

gflood wrote: »

Until we improve situations like this carbon taxes should be postponed.

How many of those cars contributing to the traffic these mornings have single person occupancy?

Say you could cut the number of cars using it by 30% with ride sharing, wouldn't that have a serious impact on reducing traffic.

Carbon taxes or other incentives which finally make people change their behaviour are essential.

29-11-2018 1:45pm

The problem for M50 as I see it, is it only tolls at one place. So many people are not paying the toll - most I guess that use it only travel a few junctions.

There should be register on at every junction, and toll off at every junction. The no more on at Tallaght off at Firhouse, example.

....... · 29-11-2018 1:47pm

Deleted User wrote: »

There should be register on at every junction, and toll off at every junction. The no more on at Tallaght off at Firhouse, example.

Youd be off your rocker to take the M50 for a trip between Tallaght and Firhouse, its FAR faster to just drive up the Old Bawn Road.

tomplate · 29-11-2018 1:51pm

How does anyone drive on it

Seriously I go up to Dublin once a year and it's like a fukkin rodeo ride when you get on it

29-11-2018 1:51pm

....... wrote: »

Youd be off your rocker to take the M50 for a trip between Tallaght and Firhouse, its FAR faster to just drive up the Old Bawn Road.

I think you may have miss the point

Alkers · 29-11-2018 1:57pm

amcalester wrote:

What improvements can you suggest?

These are all short term measures that could be implemented in the near-term before the necessary public transport infrastructure could be developed:

The variable speed limits will improve flows somewhat, providing it's combined with proper enforcement.

Enforcement of existing rules would go some way to help also - I'm envisaging maybe four dedicated motorcycle gardai to pick up on tailgating, speeding, phones etc as well as average speed cameras in tandem with the variable speed limits.

Make it an offence to brake down on the M50 and start charging people with driving without due care and attention for rear-end incidents.

Make lane three for motorcycles and multi-occupancy vehicles only.

Work with Dublin port to see if they can re-jig ferry times to minimise departures and arrivals at peak traffic times.

Increase the toll charge at peak times - encourage people to vary their working hours

yoke · 29-11-2018 1:57pm

amcalester wrote: »

What improvements can you suggest?

Why doesn’t the government give incentives to businesses to allow more employees to work from home?

I’ve been lucky enough to be able to work from home for the past 6 years and it really is the way to go if you want to reduce carbon emissions as well as reduce congestion at peak times.

If even 25% of jobs could be done from home with a good broadband connection, you’d probably solve the M50 problem.

Spanish Eyes · 29-11-2018 1:58pm

I haven't thought this through infrastructure or cost wise, so forgive my impulsive post.

But wouldn't it be great if there was a LUAS or Bus only corridor parallel to M50 hooking up with Red Cow and Ballogan luas. Together with hubs at all junctions to link with the DB new "Spines" under Bus Connects.

I know, I know.

ED E · 29-11-2018 2:01pm

We have bus lanes. They're full of taxis and parked white vans. And private cars skipping the queue.

Rigid enforcement of them = much better bus service. Right now a bus and a private car take 40 minutes to get into town. If bus lanes meant something the bus would take 20 and the car 50. Suddenly the bus is farrrr more attractive.

Tell me how · 29-11-2018 2:02pm

amcalester wrote: »

What improvements can you suggest?

Flexible working hours or working from home.
Innovation fund to develop ride sharing app
Tax breaks or toll reduction for designated ride sharing users
Incentives to companies to move out of Dublin
Encourage private bus operators to run park and ride or regular bus stop connect
Penalise users of bus lanes
Encourage more cycling by putting in adequate facilities
Increase incentive value of bike to work scheme

Brian CivilEng · 29-11-2018 2:04pm

facehugger99 wrote: »

The population densities are too low to be cost-effectively served by anything else.

Can't let this myth go unremarked on. Dublin is not a low density city, Dublin is medium density and compares to similar sized European cities such as Amsterdam, Copenhagen, Munich etc. All of which support a more comprehensive rail based public transport network than we currently do.

Irish Cycle did a good article on it:
http://irishcycle.com/2015/11/03/is-dublin-a-low-density-city/

LeinsterDub · 29-11-2018 2:05pm

facehugger99 wrote: »

A colossally expensive project that will have a near negligible impact on traffic volumes

In a thread that a suggested building a M50 on top of the M50 that's quite the claim.

Metro plus dart expansion would help greatly. Constantly building roads has failed its time to look at alternatives

Seth Brundle · 29-11-2018 2:07pm

The reality is that the M50 is oversubscribed because of a lack of alternatives but also because of laziness.
The bigger delays like today were down to incidents which I assume, having driven the M50 daily for years, was down to a combination of selfishness, incompetence and lack of attention.

Anyhow, how will we improve commuting times given the crap spouted by both the public and by certain media against the likes of the BusConnects plan?

We still don't want to get out of our cars. We need to make it easier to use public transport and more difficult to opt for the car.
We invest huge amounts of money each year facilitating car usage and little towards more sustainable modes of transport. Then we complain that people are using their cars.

I now cycle to work twice a week and drive the other days (I really should be cycling every day). However, the attitude of other drivers towards me is scary. Some drivers will try and punish cyclists for using the road. Our mindset is firmly towards car = good and everythign else is bad. This needs to change as it's only going to get worse.

Dravokivich · 29-11-2018 2:11pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

If you build more roads, you get more traffic.

We need to incentive employers to hire people who live locally, wherever possible, to remove the crazy commutes.

Not too sure how that'll be acheivable.

1) its discrimination
2) people can't afford to live in Dublin, it's why they are driving in from surrounding counties.

The M50 is overwhelemed because it's seen as a border point for the city. THere needs to be an over arching ring road for Dublin, to move people around who are coming up from Carlow, Loais, Offally, Longford, Meath, Cavan and Louth.

What public transport plan would sort that out? Bus Connects with transport Hubs based around major junctions on the M50?

no.8 · 29-11-2018 2:13pm

facehugger99 wrote: »

Wow, you're pretty touchy. I've worked for over 20 years in transportation engineering and associated planning - so, yeah it's an opinion but one based on some experience.

The solutions to Dublin's transportation problems are actually quite simple but unfortunately not terribly sexy or popular with the voters who tend to like big shiny (and expensive) solutions like Metros.

Congestion-charges combined with a complete expansion of the bus network -routes, frequencies, etc. would work.

The population densities are too low to be cost-effectively served by anything else.

If you price most motorists off the road and provide quality bus routes and decent cycling infrastructure you'd solve the problems within 2-4 years.

Sorry but I (and probably many of us here) wouldn't agree with that. I've lived in several cities (either side of the scale/density of Dublin) it most certainly is large and dense enough to support integrated railed (metro) solutions. Most of those had a mix of bicycle, car. bus, commuter rail and intercity rail systems.. I don't what the hell the 'big shiny' remark is, we had an extensive railway system over 100 years ago and its a workhorse solution, almost fully independent of influence from incidents on the road. An integrated solution is required, not just by pushing all means of public transport on to the road. Sorry, it might be fancy for you, but for many of us its just the modern world of low risk, high reward future-orientated mass transportation.

alig1234 · 29-11-2018 2:13pm

_https://www.rte.ie/radio/radioplayer/rteradiowebpage.html#!rii=b9_21464591_15036_19-11-2018_

Interesting indepth review on M50 congestion on Sean O'rourkes Radio show on RTE on 19/11/2018 well worth a listen which points to rubbernecking as being the main problem in delays on the M50, i.e. people who when they see even a (minor) accident, stop their car in the fastlane to take a photo. Sad sad people.

Seth Brundle · 29-11-2018 2:13pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

The M50 is overwhelemed because it's seen as a border point for the city. THere needs to be an over arching ring road for Dublin, to move people around who are coming up from Carlow, Loais, Offally, Longford, Meath, Cavan and Louth.

We don't need another road. We need to get people off their arses and use sustainable transport!

Seth Brundle · 29-11-2018 2:15pm

alig1234 wrote: »

Interesting indepth review on M50 congestion on Sean O'rourkes Radio show on RTE on 19/11/2018 well worth a listen which points to rubbernecking as being the main problem in delays on the M50, i.e. people who when they see even a (minor) accident, stop their car in the fastlane to take a photo. Sad sad people.

There is no such thing on our road network!

Dravokivich · 29-11-2018 2:15pm

Seth Brundle wrote: »

We don't need another road. We need to get people off their arses and use sustainable transport!

How is someone going to do that from Carlow that needs to get to Sandyford/east point/swords/etc...? Bus Connects still brings them upto the M50 to get to a hub. They won't gain transferring to a bus. Or a Bus, that's to connect to a Luas, Metro, Train, Dart. Everything from there is coming into the M50. It needs to be dissapated beforehand.

LeinsterDub · 29-11-2018 2:18pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

2) people can't afford to live in Dublin, it's why they are driving in from surrounding counties.

You achieve it my changing what in Dublin means. Metrolink would put swords in the heart of the the city. Dart expansion would make Maynooth the equivalent of Malahide today.

M50 - apalling gridlock

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