EU261 compensation discussion

rivegauche · 05-09-2018 1:42pm

https://www.juraforum.de/recht-gesetz/fluggesellschaft-darf-flug-wegen-streik-der-passagierkontrolle-nicht-einfach-streichen-632720

Some more clarification regarding EU261 from the German Federal Court.

The judgement is complicated but what it basically states is that if the employees at the security checks go on strike that doesn't necessarily mean that the airline flying from that airport can cancel all flights.
The must continue to provide service in so much as they can in spite of the strike rather than taking a blanket decision to cancel all flights on a particular day.

Eurowings here was the airline which just decided to cancel all flights when they were informed of a strike by security staff on a particular day and just sent their plane out of the German airport empty leaving all passengers including the complainant and his new wife stranded.

The reasoning behind the judgement would probably apply to other critical staff which the airline depends upon who aren't employed by the airline.

Unless the Unions in these other organisations are made responsible for the damage caused by their industrial action then they will drag airlines down in to bankruptcy. It is OK now when the aviation market is fairly healthy but in a recession a strike by baggage handlers, followed by ATC, followed by security staff would drive some of the airlines in to administration.

mikemac2 · 05-09-2018 1:48pm

A few months ago I had a flight from Dublin to Charleroi. It showed up in Dublin at our gate one hour late but that’s ok

We went through the gate and got to the steps and got stopped. The captain or first officer was very cool and confident and said the crew were close to “out of hours” so operations had switched our plane

Our plane was given to Dublin - Manchester and we left Dublin eventually on another plane arriving in Belgium at 2am

I have a letter sent by email from Ryanair confirming a delay of 4 hours 15 minutes

Lodged a EU261 claim and was denied citing “airport closure” Dublin was never closed. Did our aero plane get delayed earlier in the day due to a closure? Maybe but didn’t see anything in google and I don’t have that info

I’ll have to appeal sigh

Under His Eye · 09-09-2018 3:37pm

What happens at other airports is none of your concern.

Browney7 · 28-09-2018 9:03am

Was flying back to Ireland from Europe the night of storm Ali (the storm had passed several hours previously but the backlog caused widespread delays). Flight arrived 3.5 hours late into Dublin. Ryanair declined EU261 citing exceptional circumstances.

Read on the UK CAA site that weather effecting earlier flights isn't exceptional. Is it worth an appeal and to whom do I appeal if so?

rivegauche · 04-10-2018 2:20pm

https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/ryanair/barcelona-court-rules-that-ryanair-does-not-have-to-pay-eu261-compensation-for-internal-strikes/

Barcelona court rules that Ryanair does not have to pay EU261 compensation for internal strikes

darlett · 05-10-2018 10:48pm

Have just arrived back from Aer Lingus flight delayed 15-16 hours. I dont really understand what caused it, or if its covered by the EU261 law, and im wondering what steps i should take next. Just straight asking Aer Lingus seems likely to result in them saying no for a reason i wont be able to follow. I imagine the phrase 'outside our control' will be there but again they didnt offer any reasons for it.

Jack1985 · 05-10-2018 11:09pm

darlett wrote: »

Have just arrived back from Aer Lingus flight delayed 15-16 hours. I dont really understand what caused it, or if its covered by the EU261 law, and im wondering what steps i should take next. Just straight asking Aer Lingus seems likely to result in them saying no for a reason i wont be able to follow. I imagine the phrase 'outside our control' will be there but again they didnt offer any reasons for it.

EU261 for North America applies to all licenced European airlines heading Eastbound (to Europe) and to all airlines heading Westbound (to the US). EU261 therefor does apply in this case.

More information about submitting a claim and compensation entitlements can be found here:
https://www.aviationreg.ie/air-passenger-rights/faqs.213.html

ted1 · 05-10-2018 11:13pm

grogi wrote: »

In short, EU261 apply when it's airline fault. Main reasons would be:
- there was a problem with the aircraft
- there was a problem with Ryanair staff - strike, someone called in sick last second etc.

All other reasons - exp. airport closure due to weather, strike at ATC or the airport (of non-Ryanair personel and their contractors, such as luggage handling) etc. - don't entitle one to make EU261 claim.

A court in Barcelona ruled that strikes don’t count as they are outside the companies control

darlett · 05-10-2018 11:22pm

Jack1985 wrote: »

EU261 for North America applies to all licenced European airlines heading Eastbound (to Europe)... EU261 therefor does apply in this case...

Thanks for your quick reply. Not sure I follow why it won't apply, or maybe I described it wrong, but it was a flight from NJ, USA to Dublin with aer Lingus.

Jack1985 · 05-10-2018 11:43pm

darlett wrote: »

Thanks for your quick reply. Not sure I follow why it won't apply, or maybe I described it wrong, but it was a flight from NJ, USA to Dublin with aer Lingus.

Yep it does apply to your particular case as I said in my reply.

darlett · 05-10-2018 11:46pm

Jack1985 wrote: »

Yep it does apply to your particular case as I said in my reply.

Wow. I read that several times, each time imagining you said does 'not' apply! Er, its been a long day or two

Thanks again for your help and the link.

Jack1985 · 06-10-2018 12:30am

darlett wrote: »

Wow. I read that several times, each time imagining you said does 'not' apply! Er, its been a long day or two Thanks again for your help and the link.

I can imagine! Not a problem.

grogi · 06-10-2018 8:01am

ted1 wrote: »

A court in Barcelona ruled that strikes don’t count as they are outside the companies control

I don't know the particular circumstances of this ruling, but it makes no sense to me.

Asong as the strike is legal, it is perfectly valid reason. It is Ryanair staff that makes the decision not to fly, there cannot be more 'internal' reason. Ryanair management had control of the strikes, they simply could have agreed with the demands beforehand.

The decision of the court might be to the fact that the people in strike are not employed by Ryanair.

ted1 · 07-10-2018 10:12pm

grogi wrote: »

I don't know the particular circumstances of this ruling, but it makes no sense to me.

Asong as the strike is legal, it is perfectly valid reason. It is Ryanair staff that makes the decision not to fly, there cannot be more 'internal' reason. Ryanair management had control of the strikes, they simply could have agreed with the demands beforehand.

The decision of the court might be to the fact that the people in strike are not employed by Ryanair.

https://corporate.ryanair.com/news/ryanair-welcomes-barcelona-court-ruling-confirming-no-eu-261-compensation-is-due-during-internal-strikes/

billy few mates · 08-10-2018 11:23am

Great news. It's only right that Ryanair shouldn't have to pay compensation if other EU airlines didn't have to pay in similar circumstances.

rivegauche · 08-10-2018 1:16pm

http://register.consilium.europa.eu/doc/srv?l=EN&f=ST%207615%202013%20INIT

these proposed changes to the existing EU261 regulations will clarify things greatly if/when they are implemented.

They should also dramatically cut down on the amount of strikes because the Airlines will be able to counter-sue the Unions.

Proposal two is the one most favoured.

Option 2: balancing stronger enforcement policy with economic incentives:
enforcement policy is reinforced through stronger coordination of NEBs. NEBs would be required to
improve the information they provide to the Commission about their activities and the Commission
may request investigations, especially in cases involving several Member States. Additional costs flowing from enhanced care and assistance are compensated by adjustments in the global amount of financial compensation. This can be achieved by reducing the frequency of compensation payments via two variants:
•
Variant 2a : increasing the time threshold after which the passenger has a right to compensation in case of delays from the current three hours to at least five;
•
Variant 2b : extending the scope of "extraordinary circumstances" to include most technical defaults.
For both variants 2a and 2b, the impact assessment report analyses whether an additional adjustment of the lump-sum compensation amounts would be useful. Under option 2, there would be a limit of 3 or 4 days on the obligation of accommodation in situations of extraordinary events of long duration. To mitigate the impact on passengers, contingency planning and a quicker rerouting are introduced.

All policy options have some common features such as:
•the clarification of a number of issues (e.g. extraordinary circumstances as mentioned above, rerouting obligations, care during tarmac delays, rights in case of missed connections, etc.);
•a functional separation of general enforcement and of individual complaint handling where the latter may be taken charge of by alternative dispute resolution bodies (ADR). Both, the air carriers and the bodies in charge of individual complaints would be submitted to clear complaint handling procedures (including maximum response times);
•involvement of other market players: enhanced possibility for recourse of airlines against third parties responsible for disruptions; setting up of contingency plans among airport users. The impact assessment concludes that option 2 is preferable over the others

how this will affect passengers in practice:
3 hours for 260 euro compensation will move nearer to 5.
airlines will in future not make decisons as to which flight to sacrifice based on cost; the flight with the technical problem will be the one sacrificed as there is less worry over compensation and they'll just fly in a spare plane from a base within 5 hours to serve it rather than taking the plane from another flight.
less strikes as the airlines can bankrupt the unions and their members if they decide to go on strike. It might not have an effect on airport or ATC staff but it should keep their own staff off the picket line.

The Germans now want ATC sorted out and they are addressing their own internal ATC problems outside of EU261 and as they exert considerable influence over the EU so have a good chance of knocking strike-happy ATC in to shape or else taking control of their commercial aviation airspace away from them.
There are grounds to be optimistic that delays will become less common in the medium term future.

rivegauche · 13-10-2018 1:27pm

Eu261 in practice. warning: italian text

http://www.zoom24.it/2018/10/13/ryanair-fa-scendere-gli-italiani-dallaereo-per-fare-posto-a-turisti-tedeschi-proteste-allaeroporto-di-lamezia-terme/

Lamezia is at the bottom of the Italy Boot. Bergamo is at the top and Hamburg is over 1600km away in northern Germany i.e. over 1500km away.

There are two planes side by side in Lamezia. The one going to Bergamo is loaded and ready to go. The one going to Hamburg develops a technical problem. If the passengers don't get to Hamburg then a 189 seat flight plane full of passengers is entitled to 600 euro each.

Pragmatic solution is to deboard all the Bergamo passengers from their plane and give it to the German flight as they'll only be entitled to €250 each. If the operator is lucky they might get a replacement plane there in time and avoid that €250 per passenger compensation bill.

If the proposed changes to the EU261 regulations go through those Germans would have been the ones who were delayed, not the Italians.

FlightRadar24 tells me that the Germans have arrived about 1h40mins late while there is no information for the Bergamo flight today.

That has saved Ryanair a potential 50,000 euro.
As we know from Aer Lingus Shannon trans-atlantic passengers Ryanair aren't the only ones to make these cold hard financial decisions.

Wise Old Elf · 21-10-2018 3:45pm

Just had an EU261 claim to Ryanair turned down. Flight Shannon to Stansted friday 12th was 4.5 hours delayed. It was allegedly due to storm Callum, it would appear the inbound aircraft diverted to Dublin the previous night and there was some issue with which crew was due to operate it the Friday morning.
The FR flight to Manchester that morning, and back, operated no problem and without delays, is there any point appealing on the grounds that our specific flight was delayed to crew issues?
The actual flight ended up being a return of a plane that came in directly from Stansted and not the plane that positioned from Dublin much earlier that morning.

Under His Eye · 21-10-2018 3:54pm

There is everything to gain and nothing to lose by appealing this to the aviation regulator or going to Small Claims.

There is zero point pressing the point with Ryanair as they will just dig in and blank you.

Knock on delays clearly fall within the remit of EU 261, there is no get out given the circumstances you have outlined.

billy few mates · 21-10-2018 5:16pm

Yup, next step is a claim to the Irish CAR, after that you can still make a complaint to the UK CAA

https://www.caa.co.uk/Passengers/Resolving-travel-problems/Delays-cancellations/Making-a-claim/What-to-do-if-your-claim-is-rejected/

Wise Old Elf · 21-10-2018 5:51pm

Thanks folks. Their letter pointed to the next stage being an independent dispute resolution body in the UK so I'll go for that next and see how it goes.

trellheim · 21-10-2018 9:46pm

The 261 revisions are stuck in EU Council

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?type=TA&language=EN&reference=P7-TA-2014-0092

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/legislative-train/theme-deeper-and-fairer-internal-market-with-a-strengthened-industrial-base-services-including-transport/file-common-rules-on-compensation-to-passengers

Spain is holding it up while arguing over Gibraltar airport status

LoonyLovegood · 22-10-2018 10:12am

Have to admit, got it sorted pretty quickly. Was on the DL45 that had to turn back on September 30th, submitted my claim when I got home from my business trip on October 8th, approved that day and the money was in my bank account this morning. It's the first time I've needed to do it, and it seems to have gone well enough!

fullstop · 26-10-2018 7:14pm

If a flight is cancelled on the day and the airline provide a refund, are you still entitled to compensation?

paddy19 · 10-11-2018 4:03pm

You are most likely entitled to compensation.

There are very rare "Extraordinary circumstances" defined in EU Regulation 261/2004 and have been further defined in court rulings.

But claim anyhow. You have absolutely nothing to loose except a few minutes of your time.

Probably the easiest 250 eurots you will ever earn!

LorelaiG · 26-11-2018 1:55pm

Parents flight was cancelled, they were rebooked for next day. When I contacted Aer Lingus they said it was operational reasons, so I submitted claim for eu261 compensation for them. Have received email stating no comp because it was medical (crew member was ill apparently, flight from Dub didn't even take off so no return from New York).

Is there a way to find out the real reason for the flight cancellation?

goingnowhere · 26-11-2018 2:15pm

Crew illness isn't 'exceptional circumstances' so EC261 applies, people get sick all the time.

So either chase them and threaten to take the matter further with the CAR or get one of the no win no fee outfits online to handle the claim

L1011 · 26-11-2018 7:26pm

A staffing issue, no matter how they may attempt to tug at heartstrings, is not a getout. Knock on from a previous flight is not a getout

billy few mates · 26-11-2018 8:20pm

The regulations are clear, airlines should not be allowed to wriggle out of their responsibilities by reassigning the cause of the delay to unrelated incidents or events. It seems there are a lot of cases where the airlines try to deny claims in the hope the passengers give up or go away, thus forcing them to make a claim through the CAR or the courts.
Delayed passengers should be allowed to make their claim directly to the CAR who would then order the airline to pay up or provide an acceptable explanation why they shouldn't.
Better still, the CAR should be able to pay the claimant direct and invoice the airline for reimbursement.

LorelaiG · 26-11-2018 9:04pm

Perfect guys I've appealed anyway citing that I'd take it to CAR or further if required.

lc180 · 03-12-2018 9:02pm

Hi folks, I just got my compensation claim rejected by Ryanair. Flight from Birmingham to Dublin was delayed by 4+ hours due to a 'fuelling system failure' in... London. I would like to respond and argue my case.

I need some help with the wording of my response. Is there anything I can say regarding the EU law they don't have any come back on? Has anyone any tips on what has worked in the past or what I need to say.

Cheers!

wrote:

We refer to your claim application dated .

We apologise for the delay of your flight FR667 from BIrmingham to Dublin which was caused by airport fuelling system failure in London Stansted airport and was outside of our control.

Providing our passengers with a punctual and reliable service is one of our principle aims. However, it is inevitable that there will be occasions when we are unable to operate our flights, as scheduled, due to circumstances that are beyond our control.

It is for this reason, we regret to advise that no monetary compensation is due under EU Regulation 261/2004.

Yours Sincerely,

L1011 · 03-12-2018 9:12pm

Affects to earlier flights do not count. They can sub in or hire in aircraft to avoid the delay if they really want to

paddy19 · 04-12-2018 5:55am

"However, it is inevitable that there will be occasions when we are unable to operate our flights, as scheduled, due to circumstances that are beyond our control."

Proposed reply:

EU 261 is not based on "circumstances that are beyond our control.". The regulation allows for rejection of a claim based on "extraordinary circumstances ".

The courts have found that "
" Community legislature intended to confer exemption from the obligation to pay compensation to passengers in the event of flight cancellations not in respect of all extraordinary circumstances, but only in respect of those which could not have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken. "

I do concider that in this case Ryanair took all reasonable measures to get the flight out on time.

Let us know how you get on.

ednwireland · 07-12-2018 11:11am

got the eu261 400 euro each from ryanair pretty quickly (27 hour delay) in august ryanair just said they give us our hotel bill and dinners for the night after chasing them yet again. so all good finally - apart form loss of 1 days holiday )

paddy19 · 08-12-2018 6:40am

Proposed reply:

I do concider that in this case Ryanair took all reasonable measures to get the flight out on time.

Obviously should read:

I do not consider..

Under His Eye · 08-12-2018 3:48pm

Ryanair won't budge from their position.

Your next steps are the Aviation Regulator or court.

L1011 · 09-12-2018 11:21pm

Ad deleted. Contact hello@boards.ie for advertising options

Popeleo · 25-01-2019 10:43am

I'm trying to help an Asian friend who got delayed to see if they are entitled to EU261 compensation. I had a look at the claim form and it seems to be more aimed at single journeys, and the laws are clear as mud to me, so looking for any long-haul experiences with claims please.

Basically, without giving exact details of the airline or routing, he booked a consolidated ticket back home recently. Web booking made with an Asian airline directly.

3 flights each way DUB - EU hub - Asian hub - Asian regional airport and the same route in reverse on the way back. The outward journey was fine, boarding passes issued and luggage checked straight through from DUB to regional airport.

48 hours before his return, the airline emailed to say that the first return flight - regional to Asian hub - was rescheduled, meaning that his 4 hour stopover became a 1.5 hr stopover. Tight but doable in most airports.

However, checking in for the first flight, he was informed that they couldn't issue boarding cards or check bags through further than the Asian hub and would have to check in again there.

This was never mentioned before in any communication. He obviously missed his connection, got put up in a hotel and sent on the same flight to Europe 24 hours later, missed a day in work and got in trouble with his boss.

So, does he have grounds for a claim even though the delay originated outside the EU and with a flight that was only feeding a flight to the EU? Or should he just pick another airline next time? Thanks.

paddy19 · 30-01-2019 4:41pm

[HTML]
Travel itinerary EU carrier Non-EU carrier

From: EU to EU Covered Covered
From: EU to non-EU Covered Covered
From: out of EU to EU Covered Not covered
From: out of EU to non-EU Not covered Not covered
[/HTML]

LorelaiG · 30-01-2019 5:45pm

Just to update that this has been resolved. Aer Lingus are paying my parents their €600 each compensation.

Popeleo · 31-01-2019 10:00am

paddy19 wrote: »

[HTML]
Travel itinerary EU carrier Non-EU carrier

From: EU to EU Covered Covered
From: EU to non-EU Covered Covered
From: out of EU to EU Covered Not covered
From: out of EU to non-EU Not covered Not covered
[/HTML]

Thank you Paddy. You confirmed my suspicions.

That is the way I read it first. But that means that the EU regulations penalise EU airlines on long-haul routes. Strange.

Hotblack Desiato · 31-01-2019 11:34am

Looking at it another way, it encourages EU citizens to use EU airlines for long haul.

joe316 · 01-02-2019 8:51am

Hey folks,

Looking for help (and it might be pointless at this stage) awaiting a refund under 261 from Wow which they agreed to and confirmed that they would be paying nearly 6 months ago.

For my own sanity I can’t phone them again to get the same robotic response.

Nothing paid yet. What is my next option? If any, especially if they are going to the wall soon.

Thanks!

LorelaiG · 01-02-2019 10:27am

joe316 wrote: »

Hey folks,

Looking for help (and it might be pointless at this stage) awaiting a refund under 261 from Wow which they agreed to and confirmed that they would be paying nearly 6 months ago.

For my own sanity I can’t phone them again to get the same robotic response.

Nothing paid yet. What is my next option? If any, especially if they are going to the wall soon.

Thanks!

Call them one last time if no joy contact CAR

Browney7 · 07-02-2019 12:19pm

Browney7 wrote: »

Was flying back to Ireland from Europe the night of storm Ali (the storm had passed several hours previously but the backlog caused widespread delays). Flight arrived 3.5 hours late into Dublin. Ryanair declined EU261 citing exceptional circumstances.

Read on the UK CAA site that weather effecting earlier flights isn't exceptional. Is it worth an appeal and to whom do I appeal if so?

So Ryanair refused the claim so I referred the claim to the AESA in Spain who determined Ryanair should have paid the €250. I've followed up with Ryanair again and they still aren't playing ball. Is small claims court the only open avenue left?

billy few mates · 07-02-2019 1:38pm

Browney7 wrote: »

So Ryanair refused the claim so I referred the claim to the AESA in Spain who determined Ryanair should have paid the €250. I've followed up with Ryanair again and they still aren't playing ball. Is small claims court the only open avenue left?

The next step is the CAR (commission for aviation regulation) or better still the UK CAA, then the small claims court if necessary.

billy few mates · 07-02-2019 1:44pm

Another option you have is a company called Air Help
Airhelp.com who will do the chasing for you (if you can't be bothered or haven't the time) for a commission.
I haven't used them myself but a colleague of mine has used them twice in the past and was successful both times.
It's very simple, there's even an app for your phone where you answer a few small questions and they do all the chasing for you...

Browney7 · 07-02-2019 3:42pm

billy few mates wrote: »

The next step is the CAR (commission for aviation regulation) or better still the UK CAA, then the small claims court if necessary.

As the flight started in Spain I thought I had to go through the Spanish equivalent and thought it would have more teeth than the CAR.

I'll look into the CAA

paddy19 · 08-02-2019 10:44am

billy few mates wrote: »

Another option you have is a company called Air Help
Airhelp.com who will do the chasing for you (if you can't be bothered or haven't the time) for a commission..

Very hefty commission, 25% for an airline claim and 50% for a court claim.

billy few mates · 08-02-2019 6:22pm

paddy19 wrote: »

Very hefty commission, 25% for an airline claim and 50% for a court claim.

Still better than letting the airline trouser it.
If you've got the time and inclination to put the work into then it's obviously preferable to do it yourself but it definitely appears that some airlines will give you the runaround in the hope that you won't (a) know your rights and (b) won't bother going to the time and effort of chasing them up so it theory often first course of action is to refuse it and see what happens.
I'd prefer a system where you could make your claim directly to the CAR and they paid you and claimed it directly from the airline but that's not going to happen so this is another option.
If you download the app you'll see how simple they've made the process.
My colleague who's used it travels a lot for business, he doesn't have the time to go chasing up airlines every time he's delayed, he told me he used it twice and received a cheque for a couple of hundred quid for very little effort on tickets he didn't actually pay for himself.
It might not be for everyone but if it works for someone it's better than nothing.

EU261 compensation discussion

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