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EU261 compensation discussion

finbarrk

I made a claim to them for compensation for a cancelled flight from Stansted to Shannon on 30 March. They say they don't have to pay it because the cancelation wasn't their fault as it was due to a fire at the Airport.
Anyone know if this is the case with these compensation claims?
They did refund the cost of the flight alright. But I had to spend a good bit on another flight the next day with Aer Lingus from Heathrow, as all Ryanair flights were full.

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darlett

Jack1985 wrote: »

Yep it does apply to your particular case as I said in my reply.

Wow. I read that several times, each time imagining you said does 'not' apply! Er, its been a long day or two

Thanks again for your help and the link.

Jack1985

darlett wrote: »

Wow. I read that several times, each time imagining you said does 'not' apply! Er, its been a long day or two Thanks again for your help and the link.

I can imagine! Not a problem.

grogi

ted1 wrote: »

A court in Barcelona ruled that strikes don’t count as they are outside the companies control

I don't know the particular circumstances of this ruling, but it makes no sense to me.

Asong as the strike is legal, it is perfectly valid reason. It is Ryanair staff that makes the decision not to fly, there cannot be more 'internal' reason. Ryanair management had control of the strikes, they simply could have agreed with the demands beforehand.

The decision of the court might be to the fact that the people in strike are not employed by Ryanair.

ted1

grogi wrote: »

I don't know the particular circumstances of this ruling, but it makes no sense to me.

Asong as the strike is legal, it is perfectly valid reason. It is Ryanair staff that makes the decision not to fly, there cannot be more 'internal' reason. Ryanair management had control of the strikes, they simply could have agreed with the demands beforehand.

The decision of the court might be to the fact that the people in strike are not employed by Ryanair.

https://corporate.ryanair.com/news/ryanair-welcomes-barcelona-court-ruling-confirming-no-eu-261-compensation-is-due-during-internal-strikes/

billy few mates

Great news. It's only right that Ryanair shouldn't have to pay compensation if other EU airlines didn't have to pay in similar circumstances.

rivegauche

http://register.consilium.europa.eu/doc/srv?l=EN&f=ST%207615%202013%20INIT

these proposed changes to the existing EU261 regulations will clarify things greatly if/when they are implemented.

They should also dramatically cut down on the amount of strikes because the Airlines will be able to counter-sue the Unions.

Proposal two is the one most favoured.

Option 2: balancing stronger enforcement policy with economic incentives:
enforcement policy is reinforced through stronger coordination of NEBs. NEBs would be required to
improve the information they provide to the Commission about their activities and the Commission
may request investigations, especially in cases involving several Member States. Additional costs flowing from enhanced care and assistance are compensated by adjustments in the global amount of financial compensation. This can be achieved by reducing the frequency of compensation payments via two variants:
•
Variant 2a : increasing the time threshold after which the passenger has a right to compensation in case of delays from the current three hours to at least five;
•
Variant 2b : extending the scope of "extraordinary circumstances" to include most technical defaults.
For both variants 2a and 2b, the impact assessment report analyses whether an additional adjustment of the lump-sum compensation amounts would be useful. Under option 2, there would be a limit of 3 or 4 days on the obligation of accommodation in situations of extraordinary events of long duration. To mitigate the impact on passengers, contingency planning and a quicker rerouting are introduced.

All policy options have some common features such as:
•the clarification of a number of issues (e.g. extraordinary circumstances as mentioned above, rerouting obligations, care during tarmac delays, rights in case of missed connections, etc.);
•a functional separation of general enforcement and of individual complaint handling where the latter may be taken charge of by alternative dispute resolution bodies (ADR). Both, the air carriers and the bodies in charge of individual complaints would be submitted to clear complaint handling procedures (including maximum response times);
•involvement of other market players: enhanced possibility for recourse of airlines against third parties responsible for disruptions; setting up of contingency plans among airport users. The impact assessment concludes that option 2 is preferable over the others

how this will affect passengers in practice:
3 hours for 260 euro compensation will move nearer to 5.
airlines will in future not make decisons as to which flight to sacrifice based on cost; the flight with the technical problem will be the one sacrificed as there is less worry over compensation and they'll just fly in a spare plane from a base within 5 hours to serve it rather than taking the plane from another flight.
less strikes as the airlines can bankrupt the unions and their members if they decide to go on strike. It might not have an effect on airport or ATC staff but it should keep their own staff off the picket line.

The Germans now want ATC sorted out and they are addressing their own internal ATC problems outside of EU261 and as they exert considerable influence over the EU so have a good chance of knocking strike-happy ATC in to shape or else taking control of their commercial aviation airspace away from them.
There are grounds to be optimistic that delays will become less common in the medium term future.

rivegauche

Eu261 in practice. warning: italian text

http://www.zoom24.it/2018/10/13/ryanair-fa-scendere-gli-italiani-dallaereo-per-fare-posto-a-turisti-tedeschi-proteste-allaeroporto-di-lamezia-terme/

Lamezia is at the bottom of the Italy Boot. Bergamo is at the top and Hamburg is over 1600km away in northern Germany i.e. over 1500km away.

There are two planes side by side in Lamezia. The one going to Bergamo is loaded and ready to go. The one going to Hamburg develops a technical problem. If the passengers don't get to Hamburg then a 189 seat flight plane full of passengers is entitled to 600 euro each.

Pragmatic solution is to deboard all the Bergamo passengers from their plane and give it to the German flight as they'll only be entitled to €250 each. If the operator is lucky they might get a replacement plane there in time and avoid that €250 per passenger compensation bill.

If the proposed changes to the EU261 regulations go through those Germans would have been the ones who were delayed, not the Italians.

FlightRadar24 tells me that the Germans have arrived about 1h40mins late while there is no information for the Bergamo flight today.

That has saved Ryanair a potential 50,000 euro.
As we know from Aer Lingus Shannon trans-atlantic passengers Ryanair aren't the only ones to make these cold hard financial decisions.

Wise Old Elf

Just had an EU261 claim to Ryanair turned down. Flight Shannon to Stansted friday 12th was 4.5 hours delayed. It was allegedly due to storm Callum, it would appear the inbound aircraft diverted to Dublin the previous night and there was some issue with which crew was due to operate it the Friday morning.
The FR flight to Manchester that morning, and back, operated no problem and without delays, is there any point appealing on the grounds that our specific flight was delayed to crew issues?
The actual flight ended up being a return of a plane that came in directly from Stansted and not the plane that positioned from Dublin much earlier that morning.

Under His Eye

There is everything to gain and nothing to lose by appealing this to the aviation regulator or going to Small Claims.

There is zero point pressing the point with Ryanair as they will just dig in and blank you.

Knock on delays clearly fall within the remit of EU 261, there is no get out given the circumstances you have outlined.

billy few mates

Yup, next step is a claim to the Irish CAR, after that you can still make a complaint to the UK CAA

https://www.caa.co.uk/Passengers/Resolving-travel-problems/Delays-cancellations/Making-a-claim/What-to-do-if-your-claim-is-rejected/

Wise Old Elf

Thanks folks. Their letter pointed to the next stage being an independent dispute resolution body in the UK so I'll go for that next and see how it goes.

trellheim

The 261 revisions are stuck in EU Council

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?type=TA&language=EN&reference=P7-TA-2014-0092

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/legislative-train/theme-deeper-and-fairer-internal-market-with-a-strengthened-industrial-base-services-including-transport/file-common-rules-on-compensation-to-passengers

Spain is holding it up while arguing over Gibraltar airport status

LoonyLovegood

Have to admit, got it sorted pretty quickly. Was on the DL45 that had to turn back on September 30th, submitted my claim when I got home from my business trip on October 8th, approved that day and the money was in my bank account this morning. It's the first time I've needed to do it, and it seems to have gone well enough!

fullstop

If a flight is cancelled on the day and the airline provide a refund, are you still entitled to compensation?

paddy19

You are most likely entitled to compensation.

There are very rare "Extraordinary circumstances" defined in EU Regulation 261/2004 and have been further defined in court rulings.

But claim anyhow. You have absolutely nothing to loose except a few minutes of your time.

Probably the easiest 250 eurots you will ever earn!

LorelaiG

Parents flight was cancelled, they were rebooked for next day. When I contacted Aer Lingus they said it was operational reasons, so I submitted claim for eu261 compensation for them. Have received email stating no comp because it was medical (crew member was ill apparently, flight from Dub didn't even take off so no return from New York).

Is there a way to find out the real reason for the flight cancellation?

goingnowhere

Crew illness isn't 'exceptional circumstances' so EC261 applies, people get sick all the time.

So either chase them and threaten to take the matter further with the CAR or get one of the no win no fee outfits online to handle the claim

L1011

A staffing issue, no matter how they may attempt to tug at heartstrings, is not a getout. Knock on from a previous flight is not a getout

billy few mates

The regulations are clear, airlines should not be allowed to wriggle out of their responsibilities by reassigning the cause of the delay to unrelated incidents or events. It seems there are a lot of cases where the airlines try to deny claims in the hope the passengers give up or go away, thus forcing them to make a claim through the CAR or the courts.
Delayed passengers should be allowed to make their claim directly to the CAR who would then order the airline to pay up or provide an acceptable explanation why they shouldn't.
Better still, the CAR should be able to pay the claimant direct and invoice the airline for reimbursement.

LorelaiG

Perfect guys I've appealed anyway citing that I'd take it to CAR or further if required.

lc180

Hi folks, I just got my compensation claim rejected by Ryanair. Flight from Birmingham to Dublin was delayed by 4+ hours due to a 'fuelling system failure' in... London. I would like to respond and argue my case.

I need some help with the wording of my response. Is there anything I can say regarding the EU law they don't have any come back on? Has anyone any tips on what has worked in the past or what I need to say.

Cheers!

wrote:

We refer to your claim application dated .

We apologise for the delay of your flight FR667 from BIrmingham to Dublin which was caused by airport fuelling system failure in London Stansted airport and was outside of our control.

Providing our passengers with a punctual and reliable service is one of our principle aims. However, it is inevitable that there will be occasions when we are unable to operate our flights, as scheduled, due to circumstances that are beyond our control.

It is for this reason, we regret to advise that no monetary compensation is due under EU Regulation 261/2004.

Yours Sincerely,

L1011

Affects to earlier flights do not count. They can sub in or hire in aircraft to avoid the delay if they really want to

paddy19

"However, it is inevitable that there will be occasions when we are unable to operate our flights, as scheduled, due to circumstances that are beyond our control."

Proposed reply:

EU 261 is not based on "circumstances that are beyond our control.". The regulation allows for rejection of a claim based on "extraordinary circumstances ".

The courts have found that "
" Community legislature intended to confer exemption from the obligation to pay compensation to passengers in the event of flight cancellations not in respect of all extraordinary circumstances, but only in respect of those which could not have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken. "

I do concider that in this case Ryanair took all reasonable measures to get the flight out on time.

Let us know how you get on.

ednwireland

got the eu261 400 euro each from ryanair pretty quickly (27 hour delay) in august ryanair just said they give us our hotel bill and dinners for the night after chasing them yet again. so all good finally - apart form loss of 1 days holiday )

paddy19

Proposed reply:

I do concider that in this case Ryanair took all reasonable measures to get the flight out on time.

Obviously should read:

I do not consider..

Under His Eye

Ryanair won't budge from their position.

Your next steps are the Aviation Regulator or court.

L1011

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Popeleo

I'm trying to help an Asian friend who got delayed to see if they are entitled to EU261 compensation. I had a look at the claim form and it seems to be more aimed at single journeys, and the laws are clear as mud to me, so looking for any long-haul experiences with claims please.

Basically, without giving exact details of the airline or routing, he booked a consolidated ticket back home recently. Web booking made with an Asian airline directly.

3 flights each way DUB - EU hub - Asian hub - Asian regional airport and the same route in reverse on the way back. The outward journey was fine, boarding passes issued and luggage checked straight through from DUB to regional airport.

48 hours before his return, the airline emailed to say that the first return flight - regional to Asian hub - was rescheduled, meaning that his 4 hour stopover became a 1.5 hr stopover. Tight but doable in most airports.

However, checking in for the first flight, he was informed that they couldn't issue boarding cards or check bags through further than the Asian hub and would have to check in again there.

This was never mentioned before in any communication. He obviously missed his connection, got put up in a hotel and sent on the same flight to Europe 24 hours later, missed a day in work and got in trouble with his boss.

So, does he have grounds for a claim even though the delay originated outside the EU and with a flight that was only feeding a flight to the EU? Or should he just pick another airline next time? Thanks.

paddy19

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Travel itinerary EU carrier Non-EU carrier

From: EU to EU Covered Covered
From: EU to non-EU Covered Covered
From: out of EU to EU Covered Not covered
From: out of EU to non-EU Not covered Not covered
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LorelaiG

Just to update that this has been resolved. Aer Lingus are paying my parents their €600 each compensation.