Cities around the world that are reducing car access

MJohnston · 25-09-2020 2:57pm

The chart I posted above is from 2019, you can see the 2020 one in the Twitter thread linked before.

gjim · 26-09-2020 10:18am

magicbastarder wrote: »

i wonder how many of those being counted are 'professional' cyclists? specifically thinking of deliveroo, just eat, etc.

A pizza delivery by bicycle is still a win for everyone else in the city over delivery by car.

Any time a bicycle is substituted for a motorised vehicle, whether for commuting or commerce/trade, it improves the capacity and efficiency of the roads to get people from A to B.

magicbastarder · 26-09-2020 11:39am

no argument there; i should have explained that i was curious how the lockdown would have affected the number of people ordering in food, rather than eating out, and thus the number of bike journeys being made by food deliverers.

Sam Russell · 26-09-2020 12:39pm

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

That tweet actually shows the opposite. There was more cyclists back in January and February than there was in March, April and May. It shows that cycling isn't just a recent Covid related phenomenon and hence why we should be investing in infrastructure for it and should have been for years.

I am just noting what I see as I go about. There are a lot of cyclists about - both the lycra and pleasure cyclists who are accompanied by children etc.

Zebra3 · 02-11-2020 7:36pm

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/four-central-dublin-streets-to-become-car-free-areas-1.4397644

Mickey Mouse progress. :rolleyes:

magicbastarder · 02-11-2020 7:46pm

that's about 250m of street in total. and it's obvious that two of the 'closures' announced are truncated by car parks.

AlmightyCushion · 03-11-2020 2:36am

magicbastarder wrote: »

that's about 250m of street in total. and it's obvious that two of the 'closures' announced are truncated by car parks.

They're so disjointed as well. Just look at the existing pedestrianised areas on the map. It is Grafton street and all the other streets (apart from 2) are connected to Grafton street making a whole area that is pedestrianised. The new pedestrianised areas are just a bit of this street here, a bit of that street there, they aren't connected to each other or any other pedestrianised area.

It's better than nothing but that isn't saying much.

cgcsb · 03-11-2020 10:35am

Are they at least removing the parking on BOTH sides of SWS and reducing the carriageway width. I'm sure there are plenty of wheelchair users who would like to go to SWS but who have never been because an able bodied person cannot even walk straight down the footpath without turning sideways to avoid poles for car-user signage, parking metres etc. Even when the pedestrian trials were on you'd want some hiking boots to get through the gaping chasms that DCC calls 'potholes'.

LXFlyer · 03-11-2020 10:46am

cgcsb wrote: »

Are they at least removing the parking on BOTH sides of SWS and reducing the carriageway width. I'm sure there are plenty of wheelchair users who would like to go to SWS but who have never been because an able bodied person cannot even walk straight down the footpath without turning sideways to avoid poles for car-user signage, parking metres etc. Even when the pedestrian trials were on you'd want some hiking boots to get through the gaping chasms that DCC calls 'potholes'.

Given that the only access to South William Street will be for cars exiting the BT Car Park, then I would expect that will happen.

cgcsb · 03-11-2020 12:20pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

Given that the only access to South William Street will be for cars exiting the BT Car Park, then I would expect that will happen.

Literally nothing surprises me from the anti-progress wing of officialdom in this country. Didn't they turn off the red light camera at Blackhall place and never enforce any penalties?

magicbastarder · 03-11-2020 12:26pm

i can't remember where i read the maxim, but i am fond of 'the system evolves to protect itself'.

and it's not just 'this country'. it's any organisation which has existed long enough for that mode of thinking to set in.

LXFlyer · 03-11-2020 12:37pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Literally nothing surprises me from the anti-progress wing of officialdom in this country. Didn't they turn off the red light camera at Blackhall place and never enforce any penalties?

I think to be fair that there is scope here for reallocating the space.

But there will probably have to be some space for delivery vans to park in the morning window.

CatInABox · 05-11-2020 10:34am

Hmmm, chance for a bit of fun with one of the most pro car radio hosts out there.

https://twitter.com/PatKennyNT/status/1324271491760955392

cgcsb · 05-11-2020 10:37am

https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/1104/1176026-dame-street-pedestrians/

Have seen this in the news but nothing from DCC about the consultation process or the brochures. Looks great but given the College Green Fiasco of the last 5 years I'll reserve judgement.

I would like to see a large section of Dublin City Centre (i.e. from Stephen's Green to Parnell St) pedestrianised with buses able to use the quays and some through cycling routes. I think eventually the car parks will throw in the towel if these schemes go ahead, driving in will become too much hassle for most and there are much more valuable land uses.

cgcsb · 05-11-2020 10:45am

CatInABox wrote: »

Hmmm, chance for a bit of fun with one of the most pro car radio hosts out there.

https://twitter.com/PatKennyNT/status/1324271491760955392

People who listen to the radio are mostly car divers. Who else would suffer the rubbish on the radiio? Radio broadcasting in Ireland is insufferable so when I'm in the car I usually have organised my listening. There's not enough music, the 'serious' stations have too many morons blabbing about their opinion and the more jovial stations have different breeds of morons arguing with each other about how to pronounce words or describing junk foods they like and original content is nowhere to be found between the two. The best radio here is lyric or the Irish language stations.

CatInABox · 05-11-2020 11:08am

cgcsb wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/1104/1176026-dame-street-pedestrians/

Have seen this in the news but nothing from DCC about the consultation process or the brochures. Looks great but given the College Green Fiasco of the last 5 years I'll reserve judgement.

I would like to see a large section of Dublin City Centre (i.e. from Stephen's Green to Parnell St) pedestrianised with buses able to use the quays and some through cycling routes. I think eventually the car parks will throw in the towel if these schemes go ahead, driving in will become too much hassle for most and there are much more valuable land uses.

Here's the DCC page on it, consultation is live now.

cgcsb · 05-11-2020 2:04pm

Thanks for this. I note that in both options, a dangerously narrow footpath remains outside Centra. The bit between George's St and Christchurch also needs some work if you ask me but that's probably a separate days work. This will be a big win if it happens.

A future issue I can forsee is that there'll eventually be a design for a new East-West luas route south of the Liffey and ploughing it through here won't be an option. A Townsend-Cook St route will probably be preferred, requiring cut n cover in Templebar, shock horror, I expect the people will be less scared of tunnels once metrolink is in place though.

CatInABox · 05-11-2020 3:55pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Thanks for this. I note that in both options, a dangerously narrow footpath remains outside Centra.

Same story all over Dublin, to be honest. Tara St is ridiculous for this, considering the amount of people using it.

Dublin really needs a footpath version of the Wide Streets Commission.

LXFlyer · 05-11-2020 4:03pm

The revised bus routes through the city under BusConnects do help significantly in developing this plan with far fewer significant detours for bus routes and no daft looping from O'Connell Street to the Quays via D'Olier Street, College Street and Westmoreland Street.

However, I'd like to see the 71 and 72 use Parliament Street in both directions (northbound contra-flow bus lane).

That would be a more reasonable dogleg than forcing them to go via Winetavern Steet.

cgcsb · 05-11-2020 5:55pm

CatInABox wrote: »

Same story all over Dublin, to be honest. Tara St is ridiculous for this, considering the amount of people using it.

Dublin really needs a footpath version of the Wide Streets Commission.

I think if there were a competition then Merrion Row would have to win for reckless and senseless endangerment of pedestrians.

bk · 05-11-2020 6:27pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

The revised bus routes through the city under BusConnects do help significantly in developing this plan with far fewer significant detours for bus routes and no daft looping from O'Connell Street to the Quays via D'Olier Street, College Street and Westmoreland Street.

Can someone point me to the proposed alternative routing for the A Spine in the city center?

LXFlyer · 05-11-2020 7:28pm

bk wrote: »

Can someone point me to the proposed alternative routing for the A Spine in the city center?

Wexford St - Cuffe St - SSG South - SSG East - SSG North - Dawson St (NB) / Kildare St (SB) - Nassau St - Grafton St - College Green - Westmoreland St (NB) / College St (SB) and then as per current plan

(Same routing as the F Spine)

CatInABox · 05-11-2020 7:59pm

https://twitter.com/dlrcycling/status/1324411406918320130

Have to admit, I was surprised that they chose to go with the full trial after all the messing about that STC group.

cgcsb · 06-11-2020 11:33am

I'm starting to feel that DCC have grown something resembling a spine when it comes to facing down 'local opposition' which never actually amounts to the actual community's thoughts but rather a few Karens with access to the internet.

CatInABox · 06-11-2020 11:43am

cgcsb wrote: »

I'm starting to feel that DCC have grown something resembling a spine when it comes to facing down 'local opposition' which never actually amounts to the actual community's thoughts but rather a few Karens with access to the internet.

Yes, they've been talking a good game recently too. I think it was the pedestrianisation around the Ha'penny bridge where they were asked about a threatened legal action, and just basically said "we'll fight and win the battle", no equivocating.

Might not have been that particular scheme, but it was good to hear.

Thelonious Monk · 06-11-2020 12:00pm

cgcsb wrote: »

I think if there were a competition then Merrion Row would have to win for reckless and senseless endangerment of pedestrians.

The corner where the sushi place is, at lunchtime it's packed waiting for the green man, which takes f*cking ages, and people spill out all over the street as range rovers lash around the corner millimetres from killing people. I can't for the life of me understand why that area hasn't been sorted out for pedestrians.

Chiparus · 06-11-2020 1:39pm

Dermot Lacey going full Trump on twitter.

https://twitter.com/LaceyDermot/status/1324692060071485440?s=20

CatInABox · 06-11-2020 1:43pm

Chiparus wrote: »

Dermot Lacey going full Trump on twitter.

https://twitter.com/LaceyDermot/status/1324692060071485440?s=20

Yes, very disappointing behaviour from him altogether. Disappointing that's the quality of Labour as well.

His comment of "we should get transport experts to look at this", followed by the NTA saying it was dangerous and unworkable, followed by his "I don't have to listen to someone as unaccountable as the NTA" was really sad, quite frankly.

Thelonious Monk · 06-11-2020 4:03pm

Had to block that counsellor on Twitter he's so annoying

MJohnston · 06-11-2020 4:27pm

As a Social Dems member I often hear "why do they exist, they're just Labour" and people like Dermot Lacey are why I'll never accept that they're the same. They're a complete betrayal of the global Labour movement.

Zebra3 · 06-11-2020 9:45pm

CatInABox wrote: »

Yes, very disappointing behaviour from him altogether. Disappointing that's the quality of Labour as well.

His comment of "we should get transport experts to look at this", followed by the NTA saying it was dangerous and unworkable, followed by his "I don't have to listen to someone as unaccountable as the NTA" was really sad, quite frankly.

There are few things more democratic than good cycling infrastructure (as well as quality PT).

Makes commuting and other access more level for people regardless of income.

A so-called party of the people opposing it?

No wonder they're an irrelevance.

cgcsb · 07-11-2020 6:16pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

The corner where the sushi place is, at lunchtime it's packed waiting for the green man, which takes f*cking ages, and people spill out all over the street as range rovers lash around the corner millimetres from killing people. I can't for the life of me understand why that area hasn't been sorted out for pedestrians.

It's madness and sort of embarrassing when you consider the location. The road is allegedly 2 lanes but plenty of room for 3, and it sort of ends up being 3 lanes anyway. Should be bus and bike only with much larger footpaths.

donvito99 · 07-11-2020 7:14pm

cgcsb wrote: »

It's madness and sort of embarrassing when you consider the location. The road is allegedly 2 lanes but plenty of room for 3, and it sort of ends up being 3 lanes anyway. Should be bus and bike only with much larger footpaths.

It's not quite 3 regulation lanes wide, but there's at least 2 metres at the junction with Merrion St that could be split between both corners.

JohnC. · 12-11-2020 8:11am

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/nov/11/barcelona-launches-10-year-plan-to-reclaim-city-streets-from-cars

Barcelona launches 10 year plan, costing €37.8m. They've already started creating "superblocks" which group together 9 city blocks, closes them to through traffic and creates cycle and pedestrian friendly zones. Cars aren't totally banned from them, but they are car-unfriendly. This system will be rolled out much more.

A number of intersections will be turned into public squares or parks. They say nobody in the city centre will be more than 200m from a square or park.

riddlinrussell · 12-11-2020 10:33am

JohnC. wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/nov/11/barcelona-launches-10-year-plan-to-reclaim-city-streets-from-cars

Barcelona launches 10 year plan, costing €37.8m. They've already started creating "superblocks" which group together 9 city blocks, closes them to through traffic and creates cycle and pedestrian friendly zones. Cars aren't totally banned from them, but they are car-unfriendly. This system will be rolled out much more.

A number of intersections will be turned into public squares or parks. They say nobody in the city centre will be more than 200m from a square or park.

Sounds idyllic, I would say Barcelona (And American cities funnily enough) would be well arranged for this style of intervention as you can just close off a block and allow traffic to circulate the new 'larger' block.

With most Irish cities you'd have to figure out a winding route for your 'car' zones, and then due to awful estate designs you will have big permeability issues unless there is a concentrated campaign to fix these barriers to walking and cycling through an area.

I'm not trying to dump water on the idea, just noting it wouldn't be as quick a job as in a blocked out city.

cgcsb · 12-11-2020 11:01am

JohnC. wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/nov/11/barcelona-launches-10-year-plan-to-reclaim-city-streets-from-cars

Barcelona launches 10 year plan, costing €37.8m. They've already started creating "superblocks" which group together 9 city blocks, closes them to through traffic and creates cycle and pedestrian friendly zones. Cars aren't totally banned from them, but they are car-unfriendly. This system will be rolled out much more.

A number of intersections will be turned into public squares or parks. They say nobody in the city centre will be more than 200m from a square or park.

I love the simplicity of the Barcelona Extension. I think the early years of the free state should have adopted this model of development rather than building Cabra, Marino and Crumlin. Sad that the early governments wanted to play pretend that Cities didn't exist in Ireland.

cgcsb · 12-11-2020 11:02am

riddlinrussell wrote: »

Sounds idyllic, I would say Barcelona (And American cities funnily enough) would be well arranged for this style of intervention as you can just close off a block and allow traffic to circulate the new 'larger' block.

With most Irish cities you'd have to figure out a winding route for your 'car' zones, and then due to awful estate designs you will have big permeability issues unless there is a concentrated campaign to fix these barriers to walking and cycling through an area.

I'm not trying to dump water on the idea, just noting it wouldn't be as quick a job as in a blocked out city.

I think if the bus connects corridors are implemented as per the latest iteration you'll see a great reduction in car use overall, probably more so than the superblock model.

Sam Russell · 12-11-2020 12:32pm

cgcsb wrote: »

I think if the bus connects corridors are implemented as per the latest iteration you'll see a great reduction in car use overall, probably more so than the superblock model.

Three things will accelerate this.

1. The implementation of the 90 min fare, so that interchanges work, and allow low fares in general.

2. The gradual removal of on street parking in the city centre, and provision of P&R out from the city centre. It has to be an incentive to be able to park easily and take the bus in, rather than trying to park in the city centre.

3. Enforcement of bus lanes using cameras, and other means. Buses equipped with cameras would be a good and logical thing.

Busconnect could be the game changer to reduce the gridlock.

LXFlyer · 12-11-2020 12:45pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Three things will accelerate this.

1. The implementation of the 90 min fare, so that interchanges work, and allow low fares in general.

2. The gradual removal of on street parking in the city centre, and provision of P&R out from the city centre. It has to be an incentive to be able to park easily and take the bus in, rather than trying to park in the city centre.

3. Enforcement of bus lanes using cameras, and other means. Buses equipped with cameras would be a good and logical thing.

Busconnect could be the game changer to reduce the gridlock.

The removal of on-street parking will require alternative funding streams to local councils - that's a major part of their annual income, which is probably why very little has been done to remove spaces!

wakka12 · 12-11-2020 12:56pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Are they at least removing the parking on BOTH sides of SWS and reducing the carriageway width. I'm sure there are plenty of wheelchair users who would like to go to SWS but who have never been because an able bodied person cannot even walk straight down the footpath without turning sideways to avoid poles for car-user signage, parking metres etc. Even when the pedestrian trials were on you'd want some hiking boots to get through the gaping chasms that DCC calls 'potholes'.

Sure you'll probably get a few trolls claiming that it's actually a car ban which would be stopping all the many severely disabled people who I'm sure travel all the way into South William Street by car for a coffee

cgcsb · 12-11-2020 1:43pm

wakka12 wrote: »

Sure you'll probably get a few trolls claiming that it's actually a car ban which would be stopping all the many severely disabled people who I'm sure travel all the way into South William Street by car for a coffee

This is what makes me laugh at all the illiterates on facebook moaning about their 'road tax', they usually point to disabled road users, like a person in a wheelchair is going to park their adapted car there and find they can't get out of said car because the footpath is 30cm wide. They're obviously not fussed about disabled road users.

Sam Russell · 12-11-2020 2:20pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

The removal of on-street parking will require alternative funding streams to local councils - that's a major part of their annual income, which is probably why very little has been done to remove spaces!

Reduce on street parking by 10% and raise the charge by 15%, and do that for a few years. No reduction in income but significant reduction in parking.

Enforcement of parking and bus lanes would be essential.

What really gets me is White Van (wo)Man who parks on a double yellow line with the wheels blocking the pavement when a legal parking position is only metres away - often just the other side if the road. Any wheelchair user, or even a baby buggy, has to go to extreme efforts to get past. At least the Gardai are going after the disabled spaces that are used by those without the proper blue card.

Zebra3 · 12-11-2020 2:20pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

1. The implementation of the 90 min fare, so that interchanges work, and allow low fares in general.

Needs to be a fair charge on switching between different modes too. People shouldn’t feel they’re being punished for switching from train to bus or whatever and that financially they need to keep on the one mode.

L1011 · 12-11-2020 2:23pm

People also object to any rationalisation of bus routes, bus stops etc with the same reason - but are actually objecting for themselves.

Using those with disabilities as a front for your own objections is especially despicable.

Sam Russell · 12-11-2020 2:28pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

Needs to be a fair charge on switching between different modes too. People shouldn’t feel they’re being punished for switching from train to bus or whatever and that financially they need to keep on the one mode.

I would be in favour of a very low cost fare structure and high subsidy for PT. Remember that a huge percentage of people already have a FTP. It could be done as a temporary experiment to see what level of modal shift occurs. Maybe a €1 flat fare for a 90 min ticket for travel within the short hop zone.

I am not sure that you would consider that a fair charge.

12-11-2020 2:34pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

The removal of on-street parking will require alternative funding streams to local councils - that's a major part of their annual income, which is probably why very little has been done to remove spaces!

Therein lies so many transportation problems.

A council responsible for the movement of people has little incentive to remove one of the greatest impediments to movement when that impediment forms part of their funding

LXFlyer · 12-11-2020 5:36pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

Needs to be a fair charge on switching between different modes too. People shouldn’t feel they’re being punished for switching from train to bus or whatever and that financially they need to keep on the one mode.

The whole point of the 90 minute fare is to offer seamless penalty-free travel when connecting.

I would imagine that the fare is likely to be in the region of EUR 2.25-EUR 2.50 or so, combining the current top fare bands, and that will cover unlimited travel on all Dublin City Bus services, LUAS and DART no matter how many changes happen, provided the final tag on is within 90 minutes of the first.

Clarification is still awaited with regard to Suburban Rail as the NTA did not include it initially in their plan.

The fare determination reports for next year have not been published yet, but I'd expect that the fare will have to launch with the first phase of the revised network being implemented.

bk · 12-11-2020 7:27pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

The removal of on-street parking will require alternative funding streams to local councils - that's a major part of their annual income, which is probably why very little has been done to remove spaces!

Sounds like an argument for congestion charging

Sam Russell wrote: »

I would be in favour of a very low cost fare structure and high subsidy for PT. Remember that a huge percentage of people already have a FTP. It could be done as a temporary experiment to see what level of modal shift occurs. Maybe a €1 flat fare for a 90 min ticket for travel within the short hop zone.

In the long term I agree with you, however in the short to medium term the bigger issue public transport faces in Dublin is capacity, not demand.

Obviously I'm talking outside of Covid19 times.

A €1 fare or even free is not much use to you if three buses pass you full. I think most commuters would rather see extra funding being poured into extra capacity (more buses/trams/metro/darts etc.) then making it cheaper.

Though perhaps the idea of a €1 charge for off peak travel to get more people to use off-peak makes sense.

I think it would make a lot of sense to trial such an off-peak charge now during Covid-19 restrictions on public transport capacity, to try and help distribute the passenger load throughout the day.

Interestingly the NTA are currently funding DB/GA/IR/Luas like it had a €1 fare at the moment due to the reduced numbers using public transport, they have massively increased the subsidies to these companies to support them. So we know it can be done.

Again perhaps congestion charging could help fund such fares in future once the capacity is there.

Thelonious Monk · 25-11-2020 5:22pm

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/oslo-pedestrianisation

Interesting article, pedestrian and cyclist deaths down to zero in Oslo.

AndrewJRenko · 05-12-2020 3:31pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

What really gets me is White Van (wo)Man who parks on a double yellow line with the wheels blocking the pavement when a legal parking position is only metres away - often just the other side if the road. Any wheelchair user, or even a baby buggy, has to go to extreme efforts to get past. At least the Gardai are going after the disabled spaces that are used by those without the proper blue card.

I met your WVM today - if only there had been some vacant parking nearby that the DPD man could have used?

Cities around the world that are reducing car access

Comments