€1bn cost overrun for new Children's Hospital

klaaaz · 19-12-2018 1:24pm #1

The new Children's hospital that was announced by FG a few years ago to cost €485m has now shot up to over €1.4bn, who knows how many more billion it will cost if and when it's finished. Expect a tribunal in a decade's time to find out who is really benefiting from the explosion in costs, it's all murky in the making of a financial scandal.

https://www.rte.ie/news/health/2018/1218/1017899-national-childrens-hospital/

"It may turn out to be one of the most expensive children's hospitals in the world but it is also going to turn out to be one of the best," Mr Varadkar said.

You read that right, a world first in that Ireland has managed to produce the most expensive hospital in the world! Marvellous statement from one of the most expensively paid leaders in the world who lives off the taxpayer.

thecomedian · 19-12-2018 1:25pm

BAM

19-12-2018 1:29pm

1. Who is going to make the additional profit from this?
2. What tax rate will they be paying on the additional profit?
3. Will all that tax be paid to this state?

ARNOLD J RIMMER · 19-12-2018 1:29pm

klaaaz wrote: »

The new Children's hospital that was announced by FG a few years ago to cost €485m has now shot up to over €1.4bn, who knows how many more billion it will cost if and when it's finished. Expect a tribunal in a decade's time to find out who is really benefiting from the explosion in costs, it's all murky in the making of a financial scandal.

https://www.rte.ie/news/health/2018/1218/1017899-national-childrens-hospital/

You read that right, a world first in that Ireland has managed to produce the most expensive hospital in the world! Marvellous statement from one of the most expensively paid leaders in the world who lives off the taxpayer.

Is this the first time you've noticed a project going over budget in Ireland?

buried · 19-12-2018 1:32pm

Hmmm Anyone in some semblance of authority going to take some responsibility for this?

twinytwo · 19-12-2018 1:33pm

One thing that is seemingly never introduced in government contracts is fixed pricing. If the build goes over budget there should be penalties in place.

Deebles McBeebles · 19-12-2018 1:33pm

buried wrote: »

Hmmm Anyone in some semblance of authority going to take some responsibility for this?

Good one.

twinytwo · 19-12-2018 1:34pm

buried wrote: »

Hmmm Anyone in some semblance of authority going to take some responsibility for this?

Ha no politician knows the meaning of the word

buried · 19-12-2018 1:35pm

twinytwo wrote: »

Ha no politician knows the meaning of the word

The Fine Gael groupies sure like to use that word in the Strokestown thread

zl1whqvjs75cdy · 19-12-2018 1:36pm

Well I for one am shocked........ The original costing was obviously ridiculous. I drive past that on a regular basis and the groundworks alone must have devoured 30 million. The way tenders work for public contracts is lowest price wins 99% of the time. So bam come in with a tender of 450 mill, knowing full well that it's going to cost 3 or 4 times that. But by the time that's discovered they are already committed to the job and no one is ever held accountable for the tender process. The system itself is not fit for purpose.

thecomedian · 19-12-2018 1:38pm

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

Well I for one am shocked........ The original costing was obviously ridiculous. I drive past that on a regular basis and the groundworks alone must have devoured 30 million. The way tenders work for public contracts is lowest price wins 99% of the time. So bam come in with a tender of 450 mill, knowing full well that it's going to cost 3 or 4 times that. But by the time that's discovered they are already committed to the job and no one is ever held accountable for the tender process. The system itself is not fit for purpose.

Exactly this.
Lowest price gets in and then after that there’s nothing they can do.

DS86DS · 19-12-2018 1:39pm

The ignorance and stupidity of FG for placing this next to St. James A&E where half the junkies in Dublin pay a trip to.

It's a completely inappropriate location for a children's hospital.

griffin100 · 19-12-2018 1:42pm

thecomedian wrote: »

BAM

^^^^^^^^^^ This

kneemos · 19-12-2018 1:47pm

There are some genuine additional costs for new regulations and facilities.
All of these major projects end up costing multiples of the original price however.

seamus · 19-12-2018 1:50pm

I do think it's important to get facts in place. ~€450m was the initial estimate. €650m was another estimate after planning was approved.

But what was the tendered price? €1.4bn according to the Government? OK, that's pretty insane, but if that's the tender price, then really what it means is that whoever gave the initial two figures of 450/650 is basically incompetent and needs to be fired.

I recall at the time of the Luas works, the same issue arose, but the same question of what figures were actually the right ones.

If a price is estimated at one cost, but when it goes out to tender the prices you get back are much bigger, then the person who did the initial estimate made the screw up, not the people doing the tenders. But if it's tendered at €650m and they come back looking for €1.4bn, then the contractor is taking the piss and needs to be reined in.

listermint · 19-12-2018 1:51pm

Building a Large Hospital in the middle of a city with highly complex groundworks and environmental conditions inside quite a small narrow footprint.

In costs alot of money shocker.

The people that made this decision need to come out and own it and apologise. We all knew / know that the sites in Blanchardstown and Tallaght were more suitable on all points. But it seems an elite group within the decision making had a higher pull of the power strings.

Tbh mainly appears to be staffing related / consultants etc unwilling to be outside the M50 loop.

And this is the results we get.

JohnnyFlash · 19-12-2018 1:53pm

I presume some shower of suits from EY, Deloitte or KPMG came up with the initial figure?

mariaalice · 19-12-2018 1:56pm

The was an economist on RTE radio this morning saying how come costs for food, air travel ect is falling but medical and construction inflation is racing ahead, however he forgot to add its the same all over the world, he also tried to intimate a few other things that are nonsense, the Guy on Newstalek was a bit more nuanced in saying its not as simple as it seems. It was costed incorrectly from the start but no one wants to hear that answer.

klaaaz · 19-12-2018 2:03pm

That's what a party in govt do, announce a price that seems "we're doing a great job" and then the story goes away for a few years while the costs escalate to benefit an elite few. This smacks of corruption, can't wait to hear about who actually benefited financially from this project in the year 2040 when tribunal after tribunal try to delay the truth coming out.

mariaalice · 19-12-2018 2:08pm

klaaaz wrote: »

That's what a party in govt do, announce a price that seems "we're doing a great job" and then the story goes away for a few years while the costs escalate to benefit an elite few. This smacks of corruption, can't wait to hear about who actually benefited financially from this project in the year 2040 when tribunal after tribunal try to delay the truth coming out.

Can never decide if you are a troll or serious, but that post is nonsense. I seriousness object to egging on those who might not be able to understand a complex process and because of that start repeating the corruption nonsense.

Wheeliebin30 · 19-12-2018 2:09pm

klaaaz wrote: »

That's what a party in govt do, announce a price that seems "we're doing a great job" and then the story goes away for a few years while the costs escalate to benefit an elite few. This smacks of corruption, can't wait to hear about who actually benefited financially from this project in the year 2040 when tribunal after tribunal try to delay the truth coming out.

Have you actually any evidence of corruption here or are you just talking and making up stuff to suit your anti establishment agenda?

suicide_circus · 19-12-2018 2:14pm

this happened with luas, the port tunnel, m50, dublin airport t2. there are no consequences for anyone except the tax payer.

Cina · 19-12-2018 2:17pm

€1.4bn? Those babies would want to be heading out of there as mini Lionel Messi's with skin made of gold.

Harry Palmr · 19-12-2018 2:20pm

Public funded infrastructure is how construction companies make their money, they hate doing large private works as they have to stick an agreed budget and pay hefty fines if they over-run and they also have to stick to the schedule (again fines if they slacken)

19-12-2018 2:23pm

More than a Burj Khalifa. Fantastic.

Berserker · 19-12-2018 2:28pm

listermint wrote: »

Tbh mainly appears to be staffing related / consultants etc unwilling to be outside the M50 loop.

Doubt that. Plenty of consultants operate out of that loop. Pretty much every medical professional I've spoken to thinks this is a crazy idea, so this hospital isn't for them.

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

I presume some shower of suits from EY, Deloitte or KPMG came up with the initial figure?

I'd believe it. Bumped into a lady I used to give Maths grinds to at university level a while back. She is a director in one of the above now. I wouldn't trust her to tot up my weekly shopping bill.

iamwhoiam · 19-12-2018 2:35pm

Cina wrote: »

€1.4bn? Those babies would want to be heading out of there as mini Lionel Messi's with skin made of gold.

There are many parents who would be very happy their babies headed out of there with an intact heart , skin that didn't peel off on contact , the clefts in their palates closed so they can feed etc
I don't think bringing the sick babies into a thread on finances is appropriate to be honest

suicide_circus · 19-12-2018 2:36pm

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Public funded infrastructure is how construction companies make their money, they hate doing large private works as they have to stick an agreed budget and pay hefty fines if they over-run and they also have to stick to the schedule (again fines if they slacken)

why are there different ts and cs for public contracts?

klaaaz · 19-12-2018 2:40pm

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Have you actually any evidence of corruption here or are you just talking and making up stuff to suit your anti establishment agenda?

This from a poster with a hatred of giving a few million of taxpayers money to help the poor, not a peep out of you when your favourite conservative party has spent and will spend over a billion of taxpayers money on just one project with no accountability.

EdgeCase · 19-12-2018 2:47pm

The way that project has rolled on, seemingly with every Tom, Dick and Harry becoming involved in making major decisions about the site choice and all sorts of other things is illustrative of what's wrong with the health system here.

Money has basically been flushed down the toilet and it's money that could have been spent on capital investment in areas that need it.

My view it is this needs to be audited very aggressively and a report published immediate and people brought to account. It's totally unacceptable to be this far over budget.

This pink elephant of waste is contributing to why someone isn't getting a hip or back operation or whatever it is they're waiting in due to lack of theatre space.

It's also going to be a reason for cutting funds to other parts of the health system because it's seen as part of the overall health budget.

So when you're waiting 47 hours in an overcrowded A&E think of this monumental splurge of health budget and think about it again when you're talking to your local TD and particularly when you're standing there with your ballot paper about to make decisions.

19-12-2018 2:50pm

I'd like to see a cost/benefit analysis done with that price tag.

€1bn cost overrun for new Children's Hospital

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