Journalism and Cycling 2: the difficult second album

breezy1985 · 16-09-2020 10:30am

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Driver (33) who struck and killed father of three walks free

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/driver-33-who-struck-and-killed-father-of-three-walks-free-39535008.html

What would be the standard sentence if he had done this and killed another car driver?

TheChizler · 16-09-2020 12:33pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

What would be the standard sentence if he had done this and killed another car driver?

With no evidence of law breaking I'd imagine very similar.

AndrewJRenko · 16-09-2020 1:02pm

TheChizler wrote: »

With no evidence of law breaking I'd imagine very similar.

Drivers are required by law to drive in a manner that allows you to stop within the distance you can see to be clear.

Harrybelafonte · 16-09-2020 2:42pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Drivers are required by law to drive in a manner that allows you to stop within the distance you can see to be clear.

Didn't realise it was this detailed, thought it was with due care and attention?

Weepsie · 16-09-2020 2:53pm

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

Didn't realise it was this detailed, thought it was with due care and attention?

Tis in S.I. No. 294 of 1964.

Stark · 16-09-2020 2:56pm

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1964/si/294/made/en/print

18 General obligation regarding speed

18. A driver shall not drive at a speed exceeding that which will enable him to halt the vehicle within the distance he can see to be clear.

Harrybelafonte · 16-09-2020 3:00pm

Stark wrote: »

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1964/si/294/made/en/print

Ah, thank you.

magicbastarder · 16-09-2020 3:19pm

it seems women are excluded from the law.

Thelonious Monk · 16-09-2020 3:27pm

This happens all the time, you can kill someone with a car and get away with it, which is why it infuriates me when people go on about how dangerous cyclists are. I mean it's toxic at this stage and often encouraged by the media. I can't get my head around why they continue to spout the same nonsense when cycling is good for society on so many levels, even if we break the odd red light.
Is it just me that's seeing red lights being broken by motorists at nearly every traffic light change these days? Has it gotten worse?

CramCycle · 16-09-2020 3:47pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Is it just me that's seeing red lights being broken by motorists at nearly every traffic light change these days? Has it gotten worse?

Cycling home to collect my son from school when a car rolled through the red I was stopped at which is outside the school. Well needless to say I felt bad for using such language outside a national school. Every day, red means nothing to many any more

Seth Brundle · 16-09-2020 4:10pm

I'm after cycling along Dublins quays (W > E and then E > W) along with a spur up to Glasnevin Cemetery and back down.
In fairness, I saw loads of cars breaking red lights but I also saw many cyclists do the same. Both "groups" have their offenders but the damage inflicted on others will obviously be greater when one is in a car. As a percentage of their "group" breaking red lights, it's possibly similar but based on my spin through Dublin today for example, far far more drivers broke red lights than people on two wheels.
Nonetheless, the main issue remains speed and agressive driving in my view.

CramCycle · 16-09-2020 6:20pm

Its always a funny one to analyse. Cars are stopped once one stops in their lane (most of the time, although there are a few on the N11 who will duck into the bus lane to skip the red but this is the exception). For cyclists its more a case of how busy the lane is as they approach but effectively, anyone who wants to can. This said, much like motorists, once one stops, everyone tends to stop.

So how do we compare them, well, quite simply, we can't.

From the N11 as my only real comparable example I can give.
Numbers alone, typically motorists running lights will outweigh cyclists at least 4 to 1 and typically infinity to 1 on a typical sequence. Is it a fair comparison, of course not, the number of cars outweighs cyclists after Stillorgan significantly. This will change significantly once colleges are back but not by much.

% wise. Cars can only be measured against the first to stop, so it weighs possibly against them or possibly makes the numbers look better. so one car makes it 50% of drivers RLJ, 2 do it and its 66% and so on. Numbers of cyclists are low enough on the route that 1 cyclist alone makes it look identical to motorists.

The truth is both groups have sh1ts, some are just sh1ts, some are ignorant sh1ts and others are selfish sh1ts. Who is who and which is worse is a debate that we cannot ever resolve.

Nonetheless, the only fact that matters, is the one Seth makes. Years and years of data, regardless of who runs more red lights than the other is irrelevant, only one is shown to have the reasonable likelyhood of a possibility of causign death or serious injury to another. In my own opinion I have no interest in anyone who hurts themselves if they are being a sh1t but I am gravely concerned with any sh1t who would endanger others.

micar · 16-09-2020 8:51pm

My cycle to work used to bring me up and down the N11.

The number of car running red lights to and from the direction of the stillorgan shopping centre...cars going across the N11.

It's sometime frightening.

The locals know they have a second or two extra between when the lights to red and the lights going to/from the city go green.

magicbastarder · 16-09-2020 10:15pm

Not really journalism, but well worth a read.

https://medium.com/@d8community/why-liveable-cities-are-kid-friendly-cities-281c91f6a95e

p15574 · 17-09-2020 8:14am

micar wrote: »

The number of car running red lights to and from the direction of the stillorgan shopping centre...cars going across the N11.

It's sometime frightening.

The locals know they have a second or two extra between when the lights to red and the lights going to/from the city go green.

I was nearly a goner there one morning heading townwards on the N11. The light turned green and I started off, only a fellow cyclist shouted at me to stop - a half second later a car came ploughing across the road.

What makes these RLJ's even more dangerous is the fact that a lot of the time the actually speed up to go through the red, as in my case above

Pinch Flat · 17-09-2020 8:19am

Red light breaking is almost normal and brazen now, certainly on my commute. Every junction bar none. Three or four cars streaming through on a red is an everyday occurrence. I really don't understand why red light breaking cyclists winds people up so much, when the expectation as a motorist that you'll do it anyway.

07Lapierre · 17-09-2020 8:24am

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

This happens all the time, you can kill someone with a car and get away with it, which is why it infuriates me when people go on about how dangerous cyclists are. I mean it's toxic at this stage and often encouraged by the media. I can't get my head around why they continue to spout the same nonsense when cycling is good for society on so many levels, even if we break the odd red light.
Is it just me that's seeing red lights being broken by motorists at nearly every traffic light change these days? Has it gotten worse?

The last “close pass” I had was when cycling home, I stopped at a junction as the light was changing from amber to red. Driver behind me sped past me almost making contact with my right arm as he sped through the red light!

Duckjob · 17-09-2020 8:24am

Pinch Flat wrote: »

Red light breaking is almost normal and brazen now, certainly on my commute. Every junction bar none. Three or four cars streaming through on a red is an everyday occurrence. I really don't understand why red light breaking cyclists winds people up so much, when the expectation as a motorist that you'll do it anyway.

Classic behavioral projection AFAICS

Tell me how · 17-09-2020 8:35am

Pinch Flat wrote: »

Red light breaking is almost normal and brazen now, certainly on my commute. Every junction bar none. Three or four cars streaming through on a red is an everyday occurrence. I really don't understand why red light breaking cyclists winds people up so much, when the expectation as a motorist that you'll do it anyway.

Motorists who typically break red lights do so by going through just as they are about to change, or immediately after they have changed to red.

Some cyclists can do this, but also, at time will approach red lights and having looked left and right, will then knowingly proceed through them.

That riles drivers/pedestrians who observe it happening and see it as flagrant disregard or breaking of the rule as opposed to the bending of the rule or the subjectivity as to whether the cars should have stopped going through.

At this point, there's also an element of confirmation bias where a driver has to only see one cyclist do something wrong for them to determine everyone is doing it. Same with some cyclists who say every driver overtakes them dangerously.

Tombo2001 · 17-09-2020 10:11am

Tell me how wrote: »

Motorists who typically break red lights do so by going through just as they are about to change, or immediately after they have changed to red.

Some cyclists can do this, but also, at time will approach red lights and having looked left and right, will then knowingly proceed through them.

That riles drivers/pedestrians who observe it happening and see it as flagrant disregard or breaking of the rule as opposed to the bending of the rule or the subjectivity as to whether the cars should have stopped going through.

At this point, there's also an element of confirmation bias where a driver has to only see one cyclist do something wrong for them to determine everyone is doing it. Same with some cyclists who say every driver overtakes them dangerously.

I dont think thats a fair comparison at all.

I dont see many cyclists saying every driver overtakes them dangerously.

Whereas whenever you see see a thejournal article, facebook discussion on an Irish Times article or whatever......guaranteed, there will be punters in to whinge about cyclists all breaking red lights.

It happens every single time and is a royal pain in the hole, especially when motorists are such flagrant breakers of the law, and compared to cyclists, breakers of so many different laws.

Furthermore - you've seen the statistics to say that motorists have a 2% compliance with 30k zone speed limits in Dublin.

1 motorist in 50 sticks to the limits....

So in this case, cyclists are justified in stating that drivers as a generic group are breaking speed limits all the time, and nothing is done about it.

Finally, and to end my rant...

It goes beyond drivers projecting behavioural whatever onto cyclists....Its that Drivers on these forums, and lots of them, are openly saying they hate cyclists, they cant stand cyclists, cyclists are a nuisance....etc etc etc.

Lets not forget the Late Late Show episode where cyclists were put 'in the bin'.

breezy1985 · 17-09-2020 11:02am

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I dont think thats a fair comparison at all.

I dont see many cyclists saying every driver overtakes them dangerously.

Whereas whenever you see see a thejournal article, facebook discussion on an Irish Times article or whatever......guaranteed, there will be punters in to whinge about cyclists all breaking red lights.

It happens every single time and is a royal pain in the hole, especially when motorists are such flagrant breakers of the law, and compared to cyclists, breakers of so many different laws.

Furthermore - you've seen the statistics to say that motorists have a 2% compliance with 30k zone speed limits in Dublin.

1 motorist in 50 sticks to the limits....

So in this case, cyclists are justified in stating that drivers as a generic group are breaking speed limits all the time, and nothing is done about it.

Finally, and to end my rant...

It goes beyond drivers projecting behavioural whatever onto cyclists....Its that Drivers on these forums, and lots of them, are openly saying they hate cyclists, they cant stand cyclists, cyclists are a nuisance....etc etc etc.

Lets not forget the Late Late Show episode where cyclists were put 'in the bin'.

I've had my live threatened verbally on a number of occasions for the cheek of wanting to get to work on a bicycle. Not nice having to cycle in traffic next to a guy who just said he was willing to run you over

Seth Brundle · 17-09-2020 6:04pm

Trial Of Sandymount Cycle Path Is Not Postponed To 2021 — Dublin City Council
https://irishcycle.com/2020/09/17/trial-of-sandymount-cycle-path-will-not-to-be-postponed-to-2021-dublin-city-council/

A planned trial of a two-way cycle path on Strand Road in Sandymount is not postponed until next year, Dublin City Council has said.

The council said that reports in the media were incorrect. The council document which mentioned postponing the project until next year, which was presented to councillors, was based on councillors voting for the motion to postpone the project. But local councillors voted 9-4 against a motion to postpone the trial.

A spokesperson for Dublin City Council said: “The report in the media was incorrect as the motion was defeated and so falls and the timetable set out in the motion no longer applies.”
...

TheChizler · 18-09-2020 1:05am

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Drivers are required by law to drive in a manner that allows you to stop within the distance you can see to be clear.

True but enough evidence of this wasn't presented to the judge. I'm just making the point if you kill someone with a car and it can be framed as an accident you'll get away with it no matter how the victim was travelling.

Tombo2001 · 18-09-2020 9:22am

TheChizler wrote: »

True but enough evidence of this wasn't presented to the judge. I'm just making the point if you kill someone with a car and it can be framed as an accident you'll get away with it no matter how the victim was travelling.

Thats exactly it, seems to be almost impossible to get a prosecution for dangerous driving, and when there is one the punishment is no more than if you stole 50 euros worth of chocolate from a Centra.

magicbastarder · 18-09-2020 10:56am

TheChizler wrote: »

if you kill someone with a car and it can be framed as an accident you'll get away with it

that's to be expected though. you can't be found guilty of anything which does not meet the burden of evidence required.

it's just that there's no other activity which is habitually performed by such a large proportion of the population which has such an ability to kill others.

Thelonious Monk · 19-09-2020 3:09pm

https://www.thejournal.ie/cyclist-dies-collision-finglas-dublin-5209469-Sep2020/

Someone killed in St Margaret's, I hate seeing these accidents in the news. How long until we see victim blaming in the comments too, they really should disable them for cycling deaths.

Hurrache · 19-09-2020 3:16pm

What's scary about this one is the feeling that I'm more likely to know or know of the victim giving where it happened.

Thelonious Monk · 19-09-2020 3:19pm

I just street viewed the R108, windy country type road, I landed outside a house and someone has a sign saying "DRIVE LIKE KIDS LIVE HERE" outside. It looks like the type of road where close passes and speeding would be a regular thing. Poor guy.

Wildly Boaring · 19-09-2020 3:34pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/cyclist-dies-collision-finglas-dublin-5209469-Sep2020/

Someone killed in St Margaret's, I hate seeing these accidents in the news. How long until we see victim blaming in the comments too, they really should disable them for cycling deaths.

Already one genius saying the road should be for cars, trucks, buses only

breezy1985 · 19-09-2020 3:39pm

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

Already one genius saying the road should be for cars, trucks, buses only

Ya that jumped out at me too not make the road safer just ban bikes

Journalism and Cycling 2: the difficult second album

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