Prostitution

CoolGuy2006 · 05-05-2006 4:19pm #1

Ok, im a guy, mid 20's.
My problem is with prostitution. Why has it become so acceptable nowadays.
Most of my friends have been with prostitutes and in my last job none of the guys were shy about talking about their past experiences either.

My friends would appear to have good morals on a day to day basis but every now and then they will head over to amsterdam to do the usual. This kinda thing is so common with men in General, far more common then i ever would have believed. I always pictured old desperate men going to prostitues but my mates are all young and good looking and would have no problem meeting up with a nice girl, whenever they want.

Even a good mate of mine came back from travelling and told me he met a prostitue in a park and did the business. WTF

He now has a lovely girlfriend who i know would be disgusted if she new this. You just wouldnt imagine this guy doing this kinda thing.

So, whats my problem i hear you say. Well, my problem is that i think Guys and most people now like to sugar coat the whole thing. Saying that the girls make good money and are saving up for houses, cars, blah blah blah. I think people put the real truth to the very back of their minds. Some of these women are in very desperate situations, some of thes women are sex slaves, kidnapped women kept in brothels

I was talking to one of my girlfriends about it and she said that she and her friends know that most guys do this kinda thing so there isnt anything they can really do about it. She just accepts it. I dunno, i think most girls would be shocked to find out how common this kinda thing really is.

I am moving to Hamburg in two weeks, prostitution is legal there and at night the prostitutes are all over the main party streets. My girlfriend who is German said the usual, blah blah blah, they are saving for cars and houses.

I showed her an article in a german magazine that talked about the trafficking of sex slaves into germany and the rest of western europe. Its like my girlfriend and her friends had never even given this a thought before. In the article a prostitute was interviewed. They quoted her as saying that she gets a little sense of satisfaction from sleeping with these men because they are probably less likely to go home and abuse their kids - WTF

Its strange walking down the Reeperbahn in hamburg and you see groups of lads, irish, English, Scottish, all just walking around in groups and going over to make arrangements with the prostitues. These are guys who think they can go abroad and fulfill their sexual needs and come home and leave it all behind.You can see it in their eyes, you can see the guilt, but they all act jack the lad with their mates.

I think people look at prostitution two ways.

1: is that they see the women as business women who are getting a good deal and saving for a good future.

2: its degrading to women and men and there is always the chance that the person is a sex slave who has been trafficked out of their home country

Why does everyone just accept it as part of modern life. Why do guys who normaly are of good character feel that when they go abroad they can throw money at a girl in a desperate situation, then come home and lead the normal good moral high life again

Recently in PI there was a post about prostitution and i was to supprised to hear some girls saying they had no problem with prostituion. I just think that the real reality is alot different than what some people would lead you to believe.

Stand on the reeperbahn for 5 mins, watch the groups of lads, probably from your hometown walk around with a beer in one hand, going up the the girls with the confidence they only wished they had with a girl back home. A few days later they arrive in dublin airport and agree with their mates, "What happened there, stays there" :-(

Obviously it could be anywhere, amsterdam, germany, spain, thailand.
I just think its a real shame what men allow themselves to do for their own gratification and then come home and pretend to be a different person in front of the girls they meet here. I dont think most girls here have a clue what really goes on.

Should i come down off my high Horse.

DadaKopf · 05-05-2006 4:43pm

Prostitution is exploitation. Many - men and women - defend prostitution as a form of women's liberation. Women are, the argument goes, exploiting men. So everything's OK, yeah? But what about, say, male prostitutes so 'exploit' their female or male 'clients'? Do people make the argument that male prostitution is a form of male or gay liberation? Or maybe the prostitutes who are sold to trafficers and pimps is also liberation?

Since when does exploitation = liberation?

Prostitution is a form of violence that can never stop with legalisation. Even if a city or government legalises prostitution, red light districts would probably have to be huge to absorb the whole sex industry. I doubt people would condone prostitution if this became the case because it would be so repulsive. So there will always be a periphery of illegal operations which commit the worst forms of violence while the nice'n'legal side of it gives it a clean face. Legalisation normalises prostutution and conceals its violence.

As capitalism is exploitation by another name, prostitution is one of its worst forms.

DOLEMAN · 05-05-2006 4:50pm

It's not exploitation. Thinking that is so wrong.

I know some prostitutes. They choose to do the sex acts. The customer chooses to participate in the sex acts. The prostitute makes lots of money. End of story.

I am sorry, but sex is not degrading or something you should be ashamed of.

DadaKopf · 05-05-2006 4:59pm

You might like to read this.

Owen · 05-05-2006 5:09pm

DOLEMAN wrote:

I know some prostitutes. They choose to do the sex acts. The customer chooses to participate in the sex acts. The prostitute makes lots of money. End of story.

I am sorry, but sex is not degrading or something you should be ashamed of.

Amen. Talking with acquaintances who have partaken, Prostitutes are in it for the money, not because they're trapped, or in terrible situations. Many actually quite enjoy it. It's a job that probably nets a few grand a week, for working maybe 3 days.

A quick google also shows the majority of Irish ones to be quite good looking, and well educated (Or as well as you can judge by their literary and marketing skills).

It's a well developed business in Germany and Holland, and it's the oldest trade on the planet. Get over it, close the thread, move on. Your issues with friends cheating on their spouses is a different one entirely, and lies with their emotional issues, not the third party they're involving.

ianmc38 · 05-05-2006 5:14pm

DOLEMAN wrote:

I am sorry, but sex is not degrading or something you should be ashamed of.

Agreed.

Selling your body or sex for money is totally different.

DOLEMAN · 05-05-2006 5:26pm

ianmc38 wrote:

Agreed.

Selling your body or sex for money is totally different.

How? That doesn't make sense. If sex is not degrading, how is selling it degrading?

hepcat · 05-05-2006 5:27pm

Prostitution has always and will always exist, whether you like ot or not. Legalsing prostition as least provides some form of protection and healthcare for prostitutes, and as with drugs, would help stop trafficking.

The whole area of prostition will always have its bad side - with drug addicts and vulnerable people being drawn in for the wrong reasons. Again, legalisation would actually help here, and regular HIV screening would benefit both the prostitutes and their customers.

I don't like the whole "lads heading over to the dam to get screwed" idea - but I don't particularly have a problem with prostitution. I can see merit in the argument that providing sexual services for people who cannot access them otherwise is not a bad thing. A need for sex is normal.

DOLEMAN · 05-05-2006 5:29pm

Also, I would like to add...

I can go to a bar tonight and bring a girl home and have sex with her FOR FREE.

What's the difference between that and prostitution? You may say "she agreed to it", well the prostitute is agreeing to it too...

And...

If I'm rich I can impress a girl with a lovely house, money, gifts etc. (don't say it ain't true!) Is that not prostitution?

While you're obviously completely entitled to be anti-prostitution, you should take in all versions of it, not just the "hooker" version...

/this is something I feel quite strongly about
//apologies if I'm being aggressive etc.

Dades · 05-05-2006 6:04pm

CoolGuy2006 wrote:

its degrading to women and men and there is always the chance that the person is a sex slave who has been trafficked out of their home country

Who are you to say what's degrading for women? That, surely is the choice of each and every woman.

Yes, there may be a chance the person is a sex slave who has been trafficed out of their home country - but this is not essentially an issue with the profession itself. There is a chance the Nikes you wear were stiched by a kidnapped child worker in South East Asia- but this doesn't mean that cobbling shouldn't be a valid profession.

Any form of kidnapping/slavery is just wrong. The criminals who engage in this are the ones that require action.

simu · 05-05-2006 6:05pm

Stay on your high horse, say I!

In theory, prostitution should be like any other trade - in reality, it's not and the whole industry is tainted with exploitation of vulnerable people, human-rights abuses and so on.

What your friends are doing is like sexual colonialism tbh. If they're that ok with the whole thing, why not act the same way in Ireland and be open about it? Why not become male prostitites themselves? Why suddenly adopt a new set of ethical standards the second you step off a plane?

DOLEMAN · 05-05-2006 6:32pm

simu wrote:

In theory, prostitution should be like any other trade - in reality, it's not and the whole industry is tainted with exploitation of vulnerable people, human-rights abuses and so on.

Just like lots of other industries. For example, the IT industry. The hardcore computer freaks are certainly damaged people (severe social issues etc.)

The minimum wages jobs exploit workers (you can't live on minimum wage.)

The whole sportswear industry is full of human rights abuse (yet we still wear Nike etc.)

...

I really don't think you can single out one industry (prostitution) if you're going to talk about exploitation.

simu · 05-05-2006 6:38pm

DOLEMAN wrote:

Just like lots of other industries. For example, the IT industry. The hardcore computer freaks are certainly damaged people (severe social issues etc.)

The minimum wages jobs exploit workers (you can't live on minimum wage.)

The whole sportswear industry is full of human rights abuse (yet we still wear Nike etc.)

...

I really don't think you can single out one industry (prostitution) if you're going to talk about exploitation.

I've never heard of those industries you name being involved with human trafficking etc tho'!

Human rights abuses by multinational companies in poorly developed countries is not something I consider to be acceptable, either! o_O

And as for your remarks on "hard core computer freaks" - all I can say is wtf? See beyond the nerd stereotype!

DOLEMAN · 05-05-2006 6:44pm

simu wrote:

And as for your remarks on "hard core computer freaks" - all I can say is wtf? See beyond the nerd stereotype!

I work in IT. They exist!!

The prostitution trafficing thing... I think that's made out to be bigger than it is. However, I accept it exists and it is of course terrible.

/please note that my opinions are about prostitution in Ireland

Tar.Aldarion · 05-05-2006 7:12pm

Nothing wrong with prostitution at all.
Obviously if somebody has been forced to do it or is being exploited to do it then it is.
Now, I would never hire a prostitute but I see nothing wrong with it.
Something is not degrading unless the person in question thinks it is.
A lot of people seem to think there is something wrong or bad about sex and in particular when money is involved. Why?
There is no reason it should be illegal here.

Samos · 05-05-2006 7:41pm

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

Nothing wrong with prostitution at all.
Obviously if somebody has been forced to do it or is being exploited to do it then it is.

However, the vast majority of prostitutes are being exploited. Perhaps if it were legalised there would be better safeguards against this. But even with this, the industry might still attract vulnerable women who are desperate and trapped doing something they would rather avoid...

Tar.Aldarion · 05-05-2006 7:49pm

Samos wrote:

However, the vast majority of prostitutes are being exploited.

In Irealand?
Now, I think that no matter what problems there are currently in that industry, that does not warrant it being made illegal.
Much like people being exploited into making shoes.
In and of itself, there is nothing wrong with prostitution.

Perhaps if it were legalised there would be better safeguards against this.

I imagine there would be very strict guidelines for prostitution companies.

But even with this, the industry might still attract vulnerable women who are desperate and trapped doing something they would rather avoid...

Anything can attract vunerable people, men and women, who need money.
Money is money and if they choose it over making some chips in McDonalds fair enough. It would just be a job. Everybody want to avoid what they have to do to make money...
Your point is assuming the woman finds sex for money degrading.
Some might, some might find working in a fast food place degrading.

Black Swan · 05-05-2006 7:49pm

Why does Western society have so many unpleasant words for this profession? For example, harlot, hooker, hussy, sl*t, streetwalker, tart, tramp, trollop, wanton woman, wench, and more. Now go to Japan and what to you find? Why the difference?:rolleyes:

DOLEMAN · 05-05-2006 7:54pm

Samos wrote:

However, the vast majority of prostitutes are being exploited.

?????

Care to back up that claim with some evidence?

CoolGuy2006 · 05-05-2006 9:18pm

My whole point was, that while you could write down the merits of prostitution on paper and you could present the idea in a win win situation for all the men and women invloved it just doesnt translate like this on the streets.

Legalisation doesnt really solve the situation. Prostitution is legal in germany and holland and yet human trafficking is rife in these countries.

They are expecting a huge surge in trafficked women in germany during the world cup, where prostitution is legal.

My point is, many men go to Amsterdam or germany and they convince themselves as other people here have said that it is a win win situation for everone. Woman wants money, man wants sex. The facts show that it isnt as clear cut as this

In real life, no matter how legal the whole thing may be setup, there are criminal gangs involved and alot of women are stuck in a sex slave situation. The facts are out there, whether you choose to ignore them or not. So yes, you might go to an established brothel but that doesnt mean that the girls working there are free to return home by external guardians.

CoolGuy2006 · 05-05-2006 9:35pm

Blue_Lagoon wrote:

Why does Western society have so many unpleasant words for this profession? For example, harlot, hooker, hussy, sl*t, streetwalker, tart, tramp, trollop, wanton woman, wench, and more. Now go to Japan and what to you find? Why the difference?:rolleyes:

Well i wouldnt use them words. i could give you an endless list of words i would use to describe their pimps

The words you have listed above would be the words i hear my friends use, the same friends who use these women.

CoolGuy2006 · 05-05-2006 9:47pm

TAKEN FROM IOL.ie today

Vice squad detectives are running three separate investigations into suspected people trafficking gangs in a bid to clamp down on sex slavery, gardaí revealed today.

As a new report warned Ireland is at increasing risk from eastern European smugglers, gardaí said around 10 women had been rescued from forced prostitution in Dublin brothels in the last three years.

Officers warned the issue could not be ignored but stressed many foreign women were working of their own accord and only offering sex for sale to members of their own ethnic communities.

The figures were revealed as gardai urged the public and victims of trafficking to come forward with any information on smuggling rings.

Garda Chief Superintendent Derek Byrne said one case involved a young woman from the Baltic states forced to work in a brothel to pay for being smuggled into the country.

“We could talk about a 21-year-old eastern European female being trafficked into the country to pay off a debt incurred in her own country. And a similar case of that would be being investigated at the moment. We are investigating that extensively and we hope to bring charges in the future,” the Chief Supt said.

The International Organisation for Migration revealed it had supported more than half a dozen cases of people who were trafficked.

Women claimed to have been smuggled from African countries of Nigeria, Zambia and the Democratic Republic of Congo while others came from Romania, Moldova, Croatia and Brazil.

Michael McDowell warned that eastern Europe was one of the main sources for traffickers.

“Human trafficking is a form of modern day slavery. Victims of human trafficking are subjected to force, fraud, or coercion, for the purpose of sexual exploitation or forced labour,” he said.

“It is a growing international crime and has become a major global business for organised crime groups and networks. To date the incidence of such trafficking in Ireland is limited, but we face the same threats as those faced by many other countries worldwide.”

The work of two dedicated garda vice investigations was detailed. Operation Hotel, set up in November 2005, targets the trafficking of females from eastern Europe as sex workers.

Two non-nationals have been prosecuted and deported and further suspects in the same people smuggling ring have been identified.

Meanwhile, Operation Quest has seen officers interview several hundred strippers working in lap dancing clubs up and down the country but found only one instance of trafficking.

A Bulgarian man is suspected of bringing the girl here and officers believe he operates under a number of aliases across Europe and is no longer in Ireland.

The new poster, showing a woman and asking the question ‘Sex Slave?’, will target the victims of trafficking urging people to call Crimestoppers 1800 250025.

Translated into five languages, Romanian, Russian, Chinese, French and Portuguese the posters will be displayed at ports, airports, train and bus stations, A&E units, hotels and pubs.

Diane Grammer, chief of mission at the International Organisation for Migration, said it was important to recognise the issue.

“The victims of trafficking are often promised jobs and money and then forced into prostitution,” she said.

“We hope that through this information campaign, victims of trafficking and the people who may come in contact with them will be made aware that assistance is available.”

"A United Nations report Trafficking in Persons – Global Patterns, published last month, noted that there is a casual approach to sex trafficking with traffickers easily buying and selling people to establish prostitution of foreign women all around the world.

Citing 127 countries from which women are trafficked and 137 countries that are favoured as destinations, Global Patterns confirms the vast majority of trafficked people are women, bought and sold to be put to work in the sex trade.

Germany is one of the most popular destinations with 40,000 sex workers likely to be smuggled into the country in the next month, in anticipation of huge demand for prostitutes during the World Cup."

CoolGuy2006 · 05-05-2006 9:55pm

I dont wanna sound like i think i have the right to judge people. Alot of people very close to me have used prostitues and it has affected our friendship.
I had to bring a friend to get a aids test because his condom broke while he was having sex with a prostitute.

He got the all clear, afterwards her told me he wasnt having sex with her vagina (if you get my drift). I felt sick and so angry (not becasue of the act itself but because it was with with a prostitute, a total stranger. I dont talk to this friend much anymore and have lost alot of respect for him. Which is a really big shame because if it wasnt for the prostitute thing he is a really sound bloke.

How would the guys feel here if your girlfriends went off to amsterdam and got pissed and had sex with male prostitutes in the past. If they spent a whole weekend just going from brothel to brothel. If they told you they have done this in the past, could you respect them? Or would you still be of the same mind that prostitution is totally ok and acceptable. Would you understand that she just wanted sex and paid for a service.

As i have said, the sugar coated idea of what prostituion could be is alot different to what it actually is.

Earthhorse · 05-05-2006 9:56pm

ned78 wrote:

A quick google also shows the majority of Irish ones to be quite good looking, and well educated.

It also shows a lot of links to reports on prostituion being linked with homelessness, child prostitution on the increase in Ireland and so forth.

Also, the fact that someone is educated does not prevent them from being exploited.

DOLEMAN wrote:

The prostitution trafficing thing... I think that's made out to be bigger than it is. However, I accept it exists and it is of course terrible.

/please note that my opinions are about prostitution in Ireland

Oh, you think it's made out to be bigger than it is do you? How convenient. Don't suppose you'd care to back up your thoughts on this with some evidence or is it pure speculation on your part?

And if you think prostitution in Ireland is somehow untouched by human trafficking you're sorely mistaken.

In recent years I think prostitution has gotten a better marketing department, that's all. Sure, the girls all love it (and heck, maybe some of them do), and they're making loads of money, ****loads (and money makes everything okay), and you're only being prudish because sex is natural and so forth.

But of course none of this has anything to do with the harsh reality of how many of these girls are treated. They're not going to tell their clients they hate doing it, it's not exactly a wise thing to do, and if you really believe it's the truth in all cases I think you're being extremely naive.

DOLEMAN · 05-05-2006 11:49pm

Earthhorse wrote:

Oh, you think it's made out to be bigger than it is do you? How convenient. Don't suppose you'd care to back up your thoughts on this with some evidence or is it pure speculation on your part?

As I said earlier, I know quite a few prostitutes (a former life), and all of them were independent and wealthy. None of them had ever heard of any kind of slavery etc.

The media likes to talk about "female sex slaves" because it's a great story.

padser · 06-05-2006 11:01am

DadaKopf wrote:

You might like to read this.

Which I did, it has almost nothing to do prostitution, simply a woman who got abused and views all hetrosexual intercourse as in some way degrading to woman and and 'invasion' of the female body (which incidently although the article denies this - I would view as meaning rape). She is some crack pot anarchist who was abused by her husband, fled, got into prosutition for a while and it helped her survive.

Wikipedia wrote:

In 1987 Dworkin published Intercourse (ISBN 0684832399), in which she extended her analysis from pornography to sexual intercourse itself, and argued that the sort of sexual subordination depicted in pornography was central to men's and women's experiences of heterosexual intercourse in a male supremacist society.

Citing from both pornography and literature -- including The Kreutzer Sonata, Madame Bovary, and Dracula -- Dworkin argued that depictions of intercourse in mainstream art and culture consistently emphasized heterosexual intercourse as the only kind of "real" sex, portrayed intercourse in violent or invasive terms, portrayed the violence or invasiveness as central to its eroticism, and often united it with male contempt for, revulsion towards, or even murder of, the "carnal" woman. She argued that this kind of depiction enforced a male-centric and coercive view of sexuality, and that, when the cultural attitudes combine with the material conditions of women's lives in a sexist society, the experience of heterosexual intercourse itself becomes a central part of men's subordination of women, experienced as a form of "occupation" (cf. Chapter 7, "Occupation/Collaboration") that is nevertheless expected to be pleasurable for women and to define their very status as women.

Seriously WTF????

padser · 06-05-2006 11:06am

Iv actually found more. look at this

'Dworkin wrote that "The parent-child relationship is primarily erotic because all human relationships are primarily erotic," and that "The incest taboo, because it denies us essential fulfillment with the parents whom we love with our primary energy, forces us to internalize those parents and constantly seek them. The incest taboo does the worst work of the culture [...] The destruction of the incest taboo is essential to the development of cooperative human community based on the free-flow of natural androgynous eroticism" (Dworkin 1974, p.189). Dworkin, however, does not explain whether "fulfillment" is supposed to involve actual sexual intimacy, and one page earlier characterized what she meant by "erotic relationships" as relationships whose "substance is nonverbal communication and touch" (188), which she explicitly distinguished from what she referred to as "****ing" (187).'

Seriosuly DadaKopf, what point were you trying to make quoting this woman/?

DadaKopf · 06-05-2006 1:08pm

What feminists like Dworkin and Catherine McKinnon say in their writings is that because our society is patriarchal, it's questionable whether female prostitutes exercise real choice in the issue at all. That's because when the woman prostitute simulates pleasure for the male client, in their opinion, the act amounts to a particular and generalised maintainence of male social domination. She doesn't mean rape literally, but actual rape is an extreme form of this.

In terms of her writings sounding crazy, they might, except that her analytical approach was inspired by modern psychoanalysis and discourse analysis, particuarly Edward Said's Orientalism. So you just gotta get into it.

In a similar way, I remember on the Big Bite recently, a discussion about 20-something sex and drinking. It was a good, open debate. One woman commented that today, girls see control and liberation as getting wrecked, being one of the lads, but ultimately, while women may be breaking through arbitrary social barriers, liberation has actually become a new form of female vulnerability and reinscribed paternal domination. That's what she said. The other woman in the debate, some RTE radio journalist, was shocked to hear a social worker and researcher say these things, she thought she was just having a laugh, living the life and scoring one for women's lib.

Anyway, for more on Dworkin's views, here is a 1995 speech on prostitution.

Samos · 06-05-2006 1:21pm

DOLEMAN wrote:

?????

Care to back up that claim with some evidence?

Nah, couldn't be arsed. Don't have time for this. Statistics are difficult to come by in illegal trades anyway...

I think the main points have been discussed here already.

padser · 06-05-2006 2:03pm

DadaKopf wrote:

What feminists like Dworkin and Catherine McKinnon say in their writings is that because our society is patriarchal, it's questionable whether female prostitutes exercise real choice in the issue at all. That's because when the woman prostitute simulates pleasure for the male client, in their opinion, the act amounts to a particular and generalised maintainence of male social domination. She doesn't mean rape literally, but actual rape is an extreme form of this.

In terms of her writings sounding crazy, they might, except that her analytical approach was inspired by modern psychoanalysis and discourse analysis, particuarly Edward Said's Orientalism. So you just gotta get into it.

In a similar way, I remember on the Big Bite recently, a discussion about 20-something sex and drinking. It was a good, open debate. One woman commented that today, girls see control and liberation as getting wrecked, being one of the lads, but ultimately, while women may be breaking through arbitrary social barriers, liberation has actually become a new form of female vulnerability and reinscribed paternal domination. That's what she said. The other woman in the debate, some RTE radio journalist, was shocked to hear a social worker and researcher say these things, she thought she was just having a laugh, living the life and scoring one for women's lib.

Anyway, for more on Dworkin's views, here is a 1995 speech on prostitution.

This is kind of Bullsh1t that really annoys me about womens rights movements. Regardless of what the movements achieve its never enough.

You have to realise that some ppl just like b!tching. Thats what makes them happy. They no longer have anything to moan about so they resort to making up gripes.

Senario; woman is renting house, wants to buy house. Has no education etc cant walk into well paid job but can prostitute herself 3 nights a week, make a few thousand a week and have enough cash in a year or so to put substantial deposit down on a house.
She is exercising a choice.
Its not questionable whether she excersised choice in the issue, she did. She could have chosen to continue to rent. That, indeed is what more most women in her situation do.

DadaKopf · 06-05-2006 2:36pm

Hey, where are the chicks? Ladies, would you prostitute yourselves if you were a bit short of cash?

I've heard a lot of "I've nothing against prostitution, but I'd never do it", but when I ask why, the answer is, "I just wouldn't choose to do it". Why wouldn't you 'choose' to do it?

Most people's arguments make the crucial assumption of freedom of choice. What if it is never so simple? Or maybe the freedom of choice argument is a sideshow to the reality of prostitution which is, really, an aspect of human trafficing and poverty?

Look, I've usually gone with the freedom of choice argument, but I'm sort of thinking against myself to think around questions I've been having about that.

Tar.Aldarion · 06-05-2006 2:39pm

A lot of women see sex as more than a man would, can't seperate themselves emotionally from it and just have fun.
Some are the opposite.
Personal preferance. If you think something is degrading, does not mean another girl does.

DOLEMAN · 06-05-2006 4:05pm

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

Personal preferance. If you think something is degrading, does not mean another girl does.

Indeed. It's like when I read something along the lines of "offensive material will be removed". I find that a completely vague statement. What is offensive (and disturbing!) to me (example: people who love Jesus) is delightful to another person. Etc etc.

/maybe the Jesus example wasn't the best one in the world, but you catch my drift!

Faith · 06-05-2006 11:04pm

Interesting thread. I've a few things to say about it.

1. My main problem, or question, is why men are happy to pay for sex? In this day and age, it's really not that difficult to get laid for free. I live quite near a brothel (it masquerades as a "sauna", but everyone knows what it is). I was walking past it one day at 1.45pm on a bright sunny Friday afternoon and a guy walked out of there. He kept his head down, so it made it even more obvious. Now, he was a well dressed business man in his, I'd guess, late 30's. He looked completely respectable. I would say that a guy like him wouldn't have too much trouble finding a woman, or perhaps he even had one, so why was he buying sex during his lunch hour? I genuinely don't understand this.

I recently read a book - run of the mill chick lit, but with a slightly different story - where the main character found out that her boyfriend, who she'd been going out with for two years and had a brilliant relationship with, was having sex with prostitutes in his lunch time. He, and other male characters in the book, defended it by saying that sometimes a man just needs casual, meaningless sex and it meant nothing. If that's the case, then why couldn't he just use his hand?

2. I've got nothing against prostitution, personally, as long as it is consensual. Some women are desperate, some just see it as a good career. If they're happy to do it, then fine. It's when they're not happy to do it that I have a problem with.

3. DadaKopf, you asked would any of the women reading this prostitute themselves if they were short of cash. I could never see myself being in such a place that I needed to. Unless extraordinary circumstances arose that I can't imagine, then no, I wouldn't do that to myself. I am, however, referring to common prostitution. There are other high-class types. I'm not sure if courtesans still exist, but if they do, I wouldn't rule that out. Of course, you need to be special to be a courtesan.

The other option is high class call girls. Many women who do this have a small, exclusive client base. They "date" a number of men and act as dates to official functions etc. However, the difference here is that an actual relationship is established between the two people, except it's of a business nature rather than a sexual nature. There is sex involved, but there's also dining out, attending social and business functions etc. Nobody except you and your client know that you're being paid. I've heard lots of stories about college women doing this to earn money to support their expensive lifestyles.

I agree with Tar when he says

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

Something is not degrading unless the person in question thinks it is.

Dirk Gently · 06-05-2006 11:10pm

Faith wrote:

1. My main problem, or question, is why men are happy to pay for sex?

men aren't paying for sex, they're paying to leave with no strings after the sex.

luckat · 07-05-2006 12:56am

Would the *men* reading this prostitute themselves if they needed a few shillings?

Tar.Aldarion · 07-05-2006 1:02am

Yes. Sex is good, money is good.

Crash · 07-05-2006 2:46am

As an aside - Hamburg giant sex issues? never found it worse than any of the other german cities - in fact found it better in general - now nuremburg is where the hookers are at (stayed in a hostel by the red light district there - it was on our walk back - took us a while to cop what it was actually, ah so innocent :P)

CoolGuy2006 · 07-05-2006 9:57am

&#231 wrote: »

As an aside - Hamburg giant sex issues? never found it worse than any of the other german cities

:-( Have you been near the reperbahn? There is even a side street off it with barriers at each end, only men are allowed to walk down this certain street,. Can you believe that, my girlfriend or any other woman is not allowed walk down this specific street becasue they are female. This is a mans world and it f*cking stinks

CoolGuy2006 · 07-05-2006 10:12am

Faith wrote:

2. I've got nothing against prostitution, personally, as long as it is consensual. Some women are desperate, some just see it as a good career. If they're happy to do it, then fine. It's when they're not happy to do it that I have a problem with.

well, this is what my original post was supposed to stress. Yes the idea of prostitution may seem like a good idea for many, if there are no Victims involved, but the amount of women working as slaves is very great. I just cant understand the guys who go to Amsterdam and Germany who know that the women they are paying for sex MIGHT be slaves but are willing to put their own gratification ahead of these thoughts.

I would imagine if you stood in Dublin airport and asked all the lads heading over to Amsterdam, "What did they think of Human trafficking", they would probably all say that its a sad shocking thing.

But, when they get there and they have a few beers, start walking around the red light district, these worries and thoughts are insignificant. The facts are out there but most men would like to believe that the girls they are paying for sex are business women.

My main problem is that these men are willing to gamble that the prostitute that they are paying for sex is not a sex slave, just becasue they are horny

SpaceMonkey42 · 07-05-2006 1:25pm

The problem is not prostitution.
The problem is human trafficking for prostitution.
Human trafficking occurs because there is more money in prostitution in the EU than can be earned in eastern europe/africa/etc...
Therefore your argument is not against prostitution, but rather against trade barriers, and international economic inequality. Leading to the "desperate situations" you mentioned.

Is this thread about the rights or wrongs of the economic situations that lead some women to prostitution?

Or is it about the morality of Prostitution itself?

CoolGuy2006 · 07-05-2006 2:08pm

SpaceMonkey42 wrote:

Is this thread about the rights or wrongs of the economic situations that lead some women to prostitution?

Or is it about the morality of Prostitution itself?

without meaning to sound rude, have you read this thread from the beginning? I think i have made my opinion quite clear.

I had a big long response but i erased it becasue i was just repeating myself

When i mention Human trafficking, i am not talking about women who freely travel to another country to make good money as prostitutes. Im not even talking about women being led into prostitution, Im talking about women being FORCED into it.

SpaceMonkey42 wrote:

Or is it about the morality of Prostitution itself?

I would be lying if i said I didnt have a problem with the principle of prostitution. When I brought my friend to get a aids test and he told me what happened i did think less of him

SpaceMonkey42 · 07-05-2006 3:00pm

I am also opposed to people being forced to do things they dont want to do, and indeed may find degrading.

But would you agree with me that there is nothing wrong with a woman freely choosing to have sex for money if she is not being coerced to do so?
And indeed nothing wrong with a horny man paying for it?

Seraphina · 07-05-2006 6:40pm

i think alot of men like to justify prostitution by saying that they want to do it, and they make lots of money and all that kind of crap.

in the end, to me, its just another thing that promotes the objectification of women.
as a previous poster said, you're not paying for sex, you're paying to walk away afterwards without even knowing her name. you're paying to get her to do what you want without ever feeling guilty.
you're paying to disrespect and use her.

i dont think there are many women that would choose something to do like this. but i think there are many women out there, who after years of abuse and male domination over them, think they are good for nothing else. many women who dont have any other choices. they might not exactly have been forced, but chances are its not on the top of their career priority list.

i dont have a problem with prostitution in theory, but in reality it just reinforces the misogynistic attitudes of many men, and furthers the idea that a woman's sexuality is worth more than any other aspect of her.

CoolGuy2006 · 07-05-2006 7:25pm

SpaceMonkey42 wrote:

But would you agree with me that there is nothing wrong with a woman freely choosing to have sex for money if she is not being coerced to do so?
And indeed nothing wrong with a horny man paying for it?

My problem is with Horny Men travelling abroad to pay for sex in a industry that is rife with human trafficking. I am not saying that every single girl is trafficked, i am just saying that men are prepared to have sex with these girls even though there is a chance she might be there against her will.

Maybe Im not using the right words to get my point across. I suppose i could live with consenting adults having sex in exchange for money. I dont like the idea but i probably wouldnt have started this thread if it was about that.

Guys travel to Amsterdam and Germany with the full knowledge that there are thousands of trafficed women working there against there will yet their gratification is more important than the facts.

Sure they could find a woman who is there becuse it is a career choice but they could also be handing over money to a trafficked girl. How can they know. Its this attitude that worries me. The fact they are willing to risk it just for their own gratification. But guys will keep telling themselves that the women make great money just to make the trip home a bit more guilt free.

So while i know not every prostitute is a sex slave, there is such a huge amount of them out there that I will never understand how guys still make the choice to head over for a lads weekend without even giving it a second thought.

And for everyone who says that they dont have a problem with prostitution. How would you feel if your partner has used prostitutes in the past, how would you feel if your wife or Husband had. How would you feel if your Daughter or Son became a prostitute? How would you feel if your Mum was one?

Would you still say you didnt have a problem with prostitution?

You see, its always ok for some stranger to do it, for them to put their life and health at risk, for them to be treated like an object.

07-05-2006 7:44pm

CoolGuy2006 wrote:

And for everyone who says that they dont have a problem with prostitution. How would you feel if your partner has used prostitutes in the past, how would you feel if your wife or Husband had. How would you feel if your Daughter or Son became a prostitute? How would you feel if your Mum was one?

Would you still say you didnt have a problem with prostitution?

You see, its always ok for some stranger to do it, for them to put their life and health at risk, for them to be treated like an object.

- I wouldn't care as long as they hadn't picked up anything.
As for relatives choosing it as a profession, there are many professions I wouldn't like to see them in but it's their choice as long as they're not getting hurt.
If it's legal(as I think it is in Germany?) and there's regular testing and everything is safe and regulated and above board, and people are doing it of their own free will then by all means go ahead.

Alright, in theory I don't have a problem with it, though the old practices of having women locked up in a room all day to do it with their food coming in through a window (saw about this on a documentary) don't exactly seem nice so I would hope that's not the case anymore. Also the idea of the "comfort women" from back in... where was it? Japan? in WWII? whatever about any other time, is absolutely horrific and I also do NOT approve of that.
Otherwise, go right ahead. I'm certainly not going to sit here and make moral judgements. Not when I've heard stuff like "I'm not having sex with someone til I see that ring on my finger!"; when people go home with others from a bar and it's just as casual, etc.
Yes, it's being abused. So is child labour etc. I don't approve of those either. But it's a different matter to actual willing prostitution.

I wouldn't do it. But then, I also would find the idea of being a biologist horrible, because I just don't like it. Or working in a circus, or being a fisherman (fisherwoman?). I'd hate to have these as professions, but clearly they don't and I'm sure there are women who also chose to be prostitutes.
Again, if everyone is safe and happy and willing, I'm fine with it.
My main concern would always be health and I would hope these guys get tested afterwards.

I wonder if the OP feels so strongly about porn as well...?

CoolGuy2006 · 07-05-2006 8:07pm

bluewolf wrote:

I wonder if the OP feels so strongly about porn as well...?

I have looked at porn in the past but i dont anymore because of the very argument I am making. So yes, i do have the same attitude about porn.

The same thing, yes there are pornos made with well paid actors, blah blah, blah, but there are also pornos made with trafficked women in them. How can the viewer know if they are or arent. It was becasue of this that i stopped looking at any porn

I dont want to be The moral superhero. I could accept prostitution if it was done under the best circumstances. This isnt why i started the thread.

You see, the real world is alot different then that perfect scenario. I know there are women out their making good money and who are working for themselves. This isnt what i am talking about.

Just a silly example: Lets say you have 20 prostitutes in Amsterdam, 10 are there because they choose to be there (they like it and make good money) and the other 10 are kept there against their will.

Now, a group of lads go to Amsterdam and im sure all of them are well aware that trafficking exists, but, they choose to believe that they will certainly not end up with one of these girls. How on earth can they tell but they are willing to take the risk

They go believing that they are paying for a service and it is a win win situation for everyone. Its the fact that these guys take part in this lottery that I find hard to accept. They know that there are trafficked women working there but they choose to believe that the girl they are paying isnt one of them.

CoolGuy2006 · 07-05-2006 8:13pm

bluewolf wrote:

If it's legal(as I think it is in Germany?) and there's regular testing and everything is safe and regulated and above board, and people are doing it of their own free will then by all means go ahead.

The thing is, it is legal in Germany, 100 percent. Still, the the government is expecting 40000 trafficked women to be brought into germany for the duration the the world cup. :-(

Legalisation doest do anything, it just allows criminal gangs to parade their slaves out on the streets.

bluewolf wrote:

- I wouldn't care as long as they hadn't picked up anything.

mmm, you wouldnt mind if your wife told you that her and her mates used to take weekend trips to Amsterdam where she would go from Brothel to Brothel paying men for sex.

Tar.Aldarion · 07-05-2006 8:25pm

Bluey, you have a wife now?

Coolguy.
Do you wear shoes or brand name clothes or drink coke or eat Nestle products, etc etc. Do you research everything you eat or wear?
There is nothing morally wrong with pristitution, as with eating or the wearing of shoes. Maybe we should outlaw them until we can be safe?

Oh and,
Marriage is for women, a common mode of livelihood, and the total amount of undesired sex endured by women is probably greater in marriage than in prostitution.

07-05-2006 8:30pm

mmm, you wouldnt mind if your wife told you that her and her mates used to take weekend trips to Amsterdam where she would go from Brothel to Brothel paying men for sex.

I'm female and not married

And no, I still don't have a problem with the idea of prostitution if it's the female kind. Or the idea that my boyfriend might have slept with any. I don't care. I don't have a hangup about sex or how much people have had as long as it's consenting and safe. I don't have the idea that women must find sex degrading or that they must be nice little virgins. Nor men, either.
I think it's a little sad particularly when I'm sure they could get laid from picking up guys on a pub crawl, but I'm hardly going to say it's a horrible thing and wrong.

As for the rest, I'm in agreement with what Tar just posted.

CoolGuy2006 · 07-05-2006 8:33pm

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

Do you wear shoes or brand name clothes or drink coke or eat Nestle products, etc etc. Do you research everything you eat or wear?

yes to all them products, No I dont research any of them.
Bit of a desperate comparison, i know the point you are trying to make but cmon.

Prostitution

Comments